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View Full Version : The "New" 305C CR Pricing...


thepawnshop
03-09-2006, 09:18 PM
I have a simple question...

How can the same machine from the same manufacturer spec'd out identically come in 11k higher from a different dealer?!?!?! I am intrigued by the new "C" series Cat mini's, but they seem so proud of em here in these parts that they want $71,500 :nono: for it...plus tax and a $300 Doc fee. You know, I would LOVE to hear what "iowacatman" would sell this machine for at his dealership with teh following extras...


Long Stick
Angle Blade
Cab w/ AC
Manual Coupler
High Back Seat
12 & 24" Buckets
Hydraulic Thumb


I assure you, I wont use what you say against my local dealer, but I do know of another contractor from a different region with of course a different dealer that was offered that machine configured identically for $60,221 + tax. I do know the angle balde feature will not be available until possibly the 3rd quarter, but both salesman based the angle blade quote on the 304 cost and added a bit to it.

I think this guy is offering me the machine at full retail, even though I have asked for his best price. I know Cat is good, but....well, I'll just leave it at that.:angry:

thepawnshop
03-09-2006, 09:27 PM
Here is what I sent my Cat sales rep just now:

Jason, I am NOT comparing it dollar wise to a 50D, but I sincerely do not think you have sharpened your pencil. I also think you are quoting me full retail and that just isn't gonna work. If you tell me that is best you can do for the 305, I am fine with it, but it is much more than I am willing to pay, not to mention A LOT more than a friend of mine in another part of the country was quoted for the same machine.

I would really like to own one of these and I don't mind putting a deposit on one, especially since we both know it will more than likely be the 3rd quarter before it is available...but you are going to have to come way down. If you can't that is fine...

Let me know.

Gravel Rat
03-10-2006, 01:38 AM
Doug your getting screwed its time to look North for a excavator. You could probably order a new 305 from the Cat dealer in Ontario and have it trucked to you cheaper than you will be paying in your state.

The machine can be put on a highboy trailer so the trucking will be cheap.

Your guys dollar isn't worth as much in Canada but you will still get a better deal over what you are going to pay. I converted what you are going to pay for the 305 its almost 15,000 dollars more than what 161 Kubota sells for here.

Go to Cat website and search for a dealer in Ontario and get a price on the 305 and see what the price difference will be.

vntgrcr
03-10-2006, 07:00 AM
Doug,
Not sure what your situation is, but I just bought a Kubota 161 3 months ago brand new for $53K from a dealer in New Hampshire. I demoed CAT, Bobcat, Mustang and I will tell you the Bobcat and CAT dealer tried their best to stop me from getting the Kubota. As an industry Kubota is really making the big boys shake in their boots. The Kubota had more ameneties, better build quality for less money than the other 2. I really researched and debated what I was going to spend what I consider a large chunk of money on and the Kubota kept rising to the top. All I can say is seriously consider it. We work to hard for our money to just go along with the herd and buy something because that is what the other guy does. Good Luck

qps
03-10-2006, 07:36 AM
Doug your getting screwed its time to look North for a excavator. You could probably order a new 305 from the Cat dealer in Ontario and have it trucked to you cheaper than you will be paying in your state.

The machine can be put on a highboy trailer so the trucking will be cheap.

Your guys dollar isn't worth as much in Canada but you will still get a better deal over what you are going to pay. I converted what you are going to pay for the 305 its almost 15,000 dollars more than what 161 Kubota sells for here.

Go to Cat website and search for a dealer in Ontario and get a price on the 305 and see what the price difference will be.

You can't buy from another dealer without pre-approved sale..(cat rules)...protected area's...I don't agree either...

thepawnshop
03-10-2006, 10:30 AM
Doug,
Not sure what your situation is, but I just bought a Kubota 161 3 months ago brand new for $53K from a dealer in New Hampshire. I demoed CAT, Bobcat, Mustang and I will tell you the Bobcat and CAT dealer tried their best to stop me from getting the Kubota. As an industry Kubota is really making the big boys shake in their boots. The Kubota had more ameneties, better build quality for less money than the other 2. I really researched and debated what I was going to spend what I consider a large chunk of money on and the Kubota kept rising to the top. All I can say is seriously consider it. We work to hard for our money to just go along with the herd and buy something because that is what the other guy does. Good Luck

Funny you mention the Kubota...it has been on my mind for some time (check my previous threads) an amazingly, teh Kubota dealer called me this morning to tell em he has an OROPS machine on his yard...gonna go check it out this afternoon...

Gravel Rat
03-10-2006, 10:42 PM
You got to be kidding you mean you can't order a brandnew Cat excavator out of your state and have it shipped to you.

Doug is its getting screwed no way a 12,000lb mini should be that much money Cat or not.

qps
03-10-2006, 10:52 PM
You got to be kidding you mean you can't order a brandnew Cat excavator out of your state and have it shipped to you.

Doug is its getting screwed no way a 12,000lb mini should be that much money Cat or not.

No...not unless the dealer agrees to let it happen...if caught the selling dealer has to forfeit all profit and pay 10% as a penalty...BS...gives some dealers a license to steal.....trust me...I'd find a way around it....

iowacatman
03-11-2006, 10:23 AM
No...not unless the dealer agrees to let it happen...if caught the selling dealer has to forfeit all profit and pay 10% as a penalty...BS...gives some dealers a license to steal.....trust me...I'd find a way around it....


Right, Caterpillar asks its dealers to invest heavily in their assigned areas, in exchange, they get exclusivity. (It is actually a little more complicated than that)

I would ask your buddy to fax you the quote or order and take it to your Cat guy and ask him to 'splain himself. There could be a logical explanation for it. Also know that Cat will allocate marketing money to its dealers that dealers can use at their discretion. One dealer may use it to offer a lower price; one may use it to get a better finance rate.

If you do that and still have difficulty, send me an email and I will see what I can do.

iowacatman
03-11-2006, 10:26 AM
By the way, just priced one out, and his price does not appear to be out of line for what you are asking for.

qps
03-11-2006, 10:42 AM
By the way, just priced one out, and his price does not appear to be out of line for what you are asking for.

Not out of line if you want to pay almost list on everything.....sorry I don't agree with the whole protected area thing....free enterprise keeps everybody honest....

thepawnshop
03-11-2006, 06:22 PM
By the way, just priced one out, and his price does not appear to be out of line for what you are asking for.

Iowaman, I trust what you say becasue you have nothing at stake in this deal, though I am sure you are a company man through and through, but I have to ask...how close to actual retail is his price? I assure you, I won't sell you out to him or nayone else for that matter. You can PM me if you feel uncomfortable answering that question on an open forum, btw.

I know he may be playing the margin game with me because he is unfamiliar with me, but I basically like dealing with folks that I don't have to haggle with all day...give me a fair price and I am willing to pay it. It may be a mute point now as I am leaning HEAVILY towards the Kubota 161 now. Being you are a true "Catman", perhaps you could give me some facts/info which would sway me back into the Cat camp. It isn't ALWAYS about who has the cheapest equipment...as we all have learned at one time or another, sometimes the lease expensive machine can cost a hell of a lot more in the long run. So, Catman, take you best shot and let me know why what you guys are selling (he 305 C CR) is such a better investment (btw...I can give you my sales guys name so you can get a cut if you sway me....lol)

Thanks!

murray83
03-11-2006, 08:34 PM
i think cat's gonna cut its own throat on the crap they've been doing lately.thats total BS if u get a deal at another dealer you should be able to get it, district or not i'd say stop by and state your case if they don't like it well they just lost a big chunk of cash you were willing to put down not to mention all they would have made off you when it comes to repairs,parts and maintaince. the kubota you chose is a very well built machine,i know 2 people that own one and have no complaints and the support from the dealers are next to none.

really though cat needs to get its head out of its ass if it wants to survive,for an area dominated by cat since i've been alive they just aren't that popular anymore around here

Scag48
03-12-2006, 04:15 AM
I don't think it's a Caterpillar issue, it's a dealer issue. That's like saying buying a Honda Accord at one dealer should be the same price at a another dealer.

Squizzy246B
03-12-2006, 06:38 AM
really though cat needs to get its head out of its ass if it wants to survive,for an area dominated by cat since i've been alive they just aren't that popular anymore around here

You got that right. We don't mind paying a bit more for Cat because, here at least, its a tangible asset and the support flogs the opposition into the dirt however. But quantify a "bit" and look around...plenty of traditional Cat people are have left over BS pricing. I heard a guy talking of this the other day (30 years a Cat man) and he said such and such a loader was ahead of time by about 10 years...just like their equipment prices are now!. ROFL

Tigerotor77W
03-12-2006, 11:57 AM
There are Cat people who are aware of the price issues... it is especially prominent in certain machine categories, ie the D11 vs. the Komatsu D475. Performance isn't all that different, a mine can get the D475 nearly ten months earlier than they could the D11, and the D475 is about $250,000 less up front.

If you're not really working the D475 that hard, it'll hold up just fine, so why pay the extra money and wait the extra time for a machine that gives the same performance?

I'll continue to ask around about this one...

iowacatman
03-12-2006, 09:38 PM
Iowaman, I trust what you say becasue you have nothing at stake in this deal, though I am sure you are a company man through and through, but I have to ask...how close to actual retail is his price? I assure you, I won't sell you out to him or nayone else for that matter. You can PM me if you feel uncomfortable answering that question on an open forum, btw.

I know he may be playing the margin game with me because he is unfamiliar with me, but I basically like dealing with folks that I don't have to haggle with all day...give me a fair price and I am willing to pay it. It may be a mute point now as I am leaning HEAVILY towards the Kubota 161 now. Being you are a true "Catman", perhaps you could give me some facts/info which would sway me back into the Cat camp. It isn't ALWAYS about who has the cheapest equipment...as we all have learned at one time or another, sometimes the lease expensive machine can cost a hell of a lot more in the long run. So, Catman, take you best shot and let me know why what you guys are selling (he 305 C CR) is such a better investment (btw...I can give you my sales guys name so you can get a cut if you sway me....lol)

Thanks!

I'd love to be able to tell you all the reasons why you should by a Cat, though that is not the reason I come to this forum. I am not here to sell to you guys, I am here to learn from you.

I agree with many of you about pricing/competition ect in our industry. It is difficult to know/trust our equipment dealers, since you cannot go across town and price check them.

OEM's see brand 'x' as their competitors, and service as a way to set themselves apart from the competition.

I will say this though, its been about a long time since I have seen an equipment dealer quote retail price on a machine.

As I have said in the past, you need to look at the 'big picture' when choosing your equipment. Buying (as you all know) is the easiest and most fun. Owning is the challenge.

thepawnshop
03-12-2006, 09:50 PM
I will say this though, its been about a long time since I have seen an equipment dealer quote retail price on a machine.



Ok, Catman...then are you conceeding that the price I was quoted was either retail or damn close?!?!? I really want that machine...just not THAT friggen bad. Kubota may not be a household brand name in the mini-excavator business, but it looks like Cat "borrowed" a few of their ideas so they can't be all that bad!!!!!

If the Deere 50D had just SOME of these new features there would be no debate. My sales guy is a personal friend who shoots straight with me and I like that.

UNISCAPER
03-12-2006, 10:21 PM
There are Cat people who are aware of the price issues... it is especially prominent in certain machine categories, ie the D11 vs. the Komatsu D475. Performance isn't all that different, a mine can get the D475 nearly ten months earlier than they could the D11, and the D475 is about $250,000 less up front.

If you're not really working the D475 that hard, it'll hold up just fine, so why pay the extra money and wait the extra time for a machine that gives the same performance?

I'll continue to ask around about this one...

And those who think like this are not considering for a second that for every time the Cat goes down, the Komatsu will have b een down 4 times, and have had 6 times the non billable down time. Parts are nearly non exsitant after a sale, and a year in the dirt and thier machine is not worth half what they paid for it.

The one and only Sushi powered machine we ever had sold for $27,000 less than a Cat. At the end of it's life in 3 years, it cost $130,000 in billable hours. So, how much did we really save? Do the math.

Gravel Rat
03-13-2006, 12:37 AM
Komatsu Dozers are usually not as good as a Cat dozer as for down time it will be the same as Cat. The second largest pit in this area tried Komatsu dozers they were okay but they did have problems with the undercarriage wearing out a little quicker than Cat. Well when your pushing 20 hours a day the machines see alot of wear.

Machines break down in gravel mines is no big deal they just go out and rent another machine while their machine is getting repaired.

Down time isn't as disasterous as you guys think it is you figure its the end of the world if the machine is broke down order the parts get it fixed.

Proper maintenance and inspections prevents down time so you have no surprises. If you know part of the undercarriage is well worn order the parts and change them when you have some free time.

Kubota is a well known name in small farm tractors if you spot the Kubota orange you can tell what brand it is before you even get close to it.

Like I meantioned Cat isn't really interested in selling small machines in Western Canada it isn't where the money is. When you can sell a gravel mine or a union construction companys big machines or in Alberta oil sands where they sell billions of equipment.

A landscaper buys a mini excavator once every 5-10 years a mine will buy a couple 500,000 to million dollar machines every year.

The most common brand minis are Kubota,Bobcat,Komatsu,Deere/Hitachi and Yanmar. With Komatsu making the moves you see more and more Komatsu excavators moving in. Their dealer support and service is excellent the Komatsu dealer will bend over backwards for you.

I myself not a fan of Komatsu excavators they just are not as well built as a Hitachi or Deere.

The Kubota dealer in B.C. is good never had any problems with them my uncle bought a decent sized Kubota 4x4 tractor from them said they are good dealer.

The 161 I worked with was very very reliable the machine works 8-10 hours a day up to 6 days a week. It never needed repairs its why I feel they are good machine. Change the oil and filters do the greasing daily the machine I was running paid for itself in a year (brand new) or so now it just makes the contractor pure profit. It is their second Kubota machine the first one paid of itself quick used the machine to its service life and bought a new one.

Paying more just because its a Cat isn't a wise move sure Cat builds the best dozers and wheel loaders but when it comes to excavators there are other brands that will serve you very well.

So you would rather pay a extra 5-10 grand for a Cat machine just because it is a Cat when the Kubota makes a equal quality machine that will last the same amount of hours.

You guys really have to try other brands and not be so scared of them. You guys shouldn't be so concerned about dealer support if the machine is going to be breaking down all the time why are you buying it ?

You should be pretty much able to buy the machine from the dealer and it shouldn't need repairs for atleast 3-4 years. Do the general maintenance you probably won't have to do a major repair to the machine.

If your constantly having to repair the machine then your beating the crap out of it or you bought a machine too small for the jobs you are doing.

The only thing you would have to buy from the dealer is filters all the other parts you get from aftermarket. Hydraulics you go to a hydraulic shop not the dealer the undercarriage you deal through companies that specialize in that. The dealer 99% of the time sends their hydraulic stuff to the same shop you can deal with.

Like I meantioned in other posts every equipment dealer for us is minimum 4 hours away so all the parts we use is aftermarket. It so much cheaper they last the same length of time and the machine isn't broke down for half a day.

Blown hydraulic hoses are a common occurance well take the hose off head off to the parts store have a new one made up go back and install it. Don't need the dealer to get you a hydraulic hose. The parts store buys the same brand hose the ends are usually reusable.

There is no need for the dealer to be on your back door step. If you really need the Cat service man that close does that say something about Cat's quality that it isn't reliable or breaks down alot.

Like I said a brandnew machine should only see grease and oil if your replacing parts then your abusing the machine or the machine is junk.

Scag48
03-13-2006, 01:32 AM
I think you're missing the dealer support issue. It's not that we need the dealer within 2 minutes from the jobsite, it's that we need the parts to get the machines running within a timely fashion, say less than 24 hours. Komatsu and Hitachi have been slow out here with parts and neither of them exist in our region.

Gravel Rat
03-13-2006, 02:01 AM
Like I said regular inspections prevents surprises if you can spot a problem before it becomes a major you can pre order the parts. We can get specialized dealer only parts in 24 hours too they either ship it ground or fly the parts in.

Every day you should inspect your machines kind of like a pretrip you do with the truck you do this everyday you notice things. The common replaceable things you always have on hand at your shop or shop trailer.

I also said if your machine is constantly breaking down then its from lack of maintenance. One old EX-150 I ran had over 13,000 hours on it the machine rarely needed repairs.

You can buy pretty much all parts aftermarket like alternators and starters its much cheaper. Hydraulic hoses can be made by other shops.

thepawnshop
03-13-2006, 09:10 AM
GR, you are very right about paying more for a name...in fact, there was a recent thread about "name recognition". I do also agree that you should take good care of the equipment, but I am sure there are several threads talking about the pitfalls of others using our equipment.

Most of us here on this board are small operators...you do the "BIG" stuff and of that, I am a bit jealous. Other than Uniscraper, you are the only other person I know of on here that moves/moved A LOT of material. I appreciate ALL of your posts, even when I don't agree with the content, but I do think you are thinking more like a big time excavator and less like a small earth moving business owner/operator. That said, I think you have nailed it pretty good here...

Cat logo does look pretty cool, though, eh?

iowacatman
03-13-2006, 09:37 AM
Ok, Catman...then are you conceeding that the price I was quoted was either retail or damn close?!?!? I really want that machine...just not THAT friggen bad. Kubota may not be a household brand name in the mini-excavator business, but it looks like Cat "borrowed" a few of their ideas so they can't be all that bad!!!!!

If the Deere 50D had just SOME of these new features there would be no debate. My sales guy is a personal friend who shoots straight with me and I like that.

I would call that cat man of yours and get him to prove it is worth the premium he is asking for (which is not retail by the way).

My wife wanted a new Toyota Mini-van, the Honda was 8K less with more features, when I asked the Toyota guy to 'sell' his premium, he couldn't do it. (I didn't buy either van, but it was fun to shop).

I would encourage you to try the new 305, if you don't think it's worth the premium, don't buy it.

qps
03-13-2006, 10:02 AM
I would call that cat man of yours and get him to prove it is worth the premium he is asking for (which is not retail by the way).

My wife wanted a new Toyota Mini-van, the Honda was 8K less with more features, when I asked the Toyota guy to 'sell' his premium, he couldn't do it. (I didn't buy either van, but it was fun to shop).

I would encourage you to try the new 305, if you don't think it's worth the premium, don't buy it.


I do agree you get what you pay for...but several thousand dollars is alot of money...If someone was to tell you you had to buy from a certain Ford dealer and pay whatever price he said.....you would laugh yourself silly...then tell him to....well you know what I mean....

qps
03-13-2006, 10:03 AM
I would call that cat man of yours and get him to prove it is worth the premium he is asking for (which is not retail by the way).

My wife wanted a new Toyota Mini-van, the Honda was 8K less with more features, when I asked the Toyota guy to 'sell' his premium, he couldn't do it. (I didn't buy either van, but it was fun to shop).

I would encourage you to try the new 305, if you don't think it's worth the premium, don't buy it.

It may not be retail on the machine...but I bet it is...or close to it on all the options.....

qps
03-13-2006, 03:21 PM
After seeing the 304...I gotta say hold off for the cat, if this thing digs like the takeuchi and has a/c...sign me up....

UNISCAPER
03-13-2006, 11:45 PM
I look at two things. Billable hours, and support. The smaller you are, the absolute more important those two things are,. If your Sushi dealer tells you they can't get to you for a week when your machine breaks, you lost and lets use the figure of $150.00 an hour, you lost $6,000.00 waiting for the needle dicks to get out and do their job and keep you going. If they add further insult to injury as most of them do and make you rent a machine until yours is fixed, you then have lost the rental fees for the week you would bill, and are lucky to break even after you cut the check. So, you actually lost more than if the machine sat idle.

You won't ever wait with a Cat machine, nor will you ever need to rent while yours is being worked on. Nor will parts take 6 weeks to arrive that should be stocked in the first place.

To me and our operation, that is the only thing that matters. It also helps when the machine you use is standard of the industry to start with.

2004F550
03-14-2006, 12:00 AM
We are an excavating company with almost all Cat equip., when we bought our machine we tried the 305, the Bobcat 435, and we looked at Kubota...anyway we ended up with the 435 for the following reasons, for 72k, we got the 435 with cab, A/C, radio,fastrax....hyd. thumb, hyd. twist wrist grading bucket, 24" and 12" buckets and the B950 breaker......we talked to our Cat rep and he gave us a quote of 73K for the 305 cab, A/C, 24" bucket and a mech thumb....even though Cat is great and nothing compares to the parts and service, sometimes it just doesn't work out, in this size machine, it didn't make any sense not to buy the Bobcat....no compliants really w/ the Bobcat either and service is good for the product...just our story and my .02 about the Cat deal......

2004F550
03-14-2006, 12:00 AM
We are an excavating company with almost all Cat equip., when we bought our machine we tried the 305, the Bobcat 435, and we looked at Kubota...anyway we ended up with the 435 for the following reasons, for 72k, we got the 435 with cab, A/C, radio,fastrax....hyd. thumb, hyd. twist wrist grading bucket, 24" and 12" buckets and the B950 breaker......we talked to our Cat rep and he gave us a quote of 73K for the 305 cab, A/C, 24" bucket and a mech thumb....even though Cat is great and nothing compares to the parts and service, sometimes it just doesn't work out, in this size machine, it didn't make any sense not to buy the Bobcat....no compliants really w/ the Bobcat either and service is good for the product...just our story and my .02 about the Cat deal......

thepawnshop
03-14-2006, 12:20 AM
Here was the Cat dealers response to my email asking for his best deal:

Doug,

Price is what it is. With the options you have requested there is nothing I
can do with the price.
Unit List for $74,415 including freight. I have given you a $12,461.00 off
of list before adding
the attachments. I have included $3200 for Tilt Blade, which is probably
high, but I would rather
be high than fall short.

Unit is priced as follows:

305CCR Enclosed Cab, Heat, AC, High Back Seat, Long Stick :$61954.00
24" bkt :$1012.50
12" bkt :$784.80
Manual Coupler plus install :$1556.70
Hyd. Thumb plus install :$2960.00
Tilt Blade Option :$3200.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total :
$71,468.00

PLUS TAX!!!!!!!!!

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks,

The Kubota dealer can have my machine delivered Friday...only problem I have with these guys is that they DO NOT offer demo machines. These guys are a small "mom & pop" outfit and basically order exactly what you want, but if you order it, you bought it. I'm not too keen on that...the only thing that keeps them in the game is price and recommendations from this forum about the quality of the Kubota machines. As it stands now, based on the email above the Kubota is 16k less...you can buy A LOT of support for 16k!

I had lunch with my buddy that works for Deere. When I told him I what direction I was heading in, his response was "I was hoping you wouldn't find out about Kubota. They make a good machine and I can't find anything bad to tell you other than the fact that we offer great support". Well, he's right...the local Deere dealer is INCREDIBLE! I agree it is nice when I do have a machine go down, I have a loaner almost instantly but I have dealers and rental yards within a stones throw all around me and for a day or two of work, I can live with it.

I am sure the Cat dealer is incredible as well, just not 16k better. Don't beat me up too bad, Uniscraper!

The biggest difference for me versus most of the folks on here is that I am doing all my excavating for...ME! So if a machine does go down, I am OK.

ksss
03-14-2006, 12:24 AM
Uniscaper, do you really believe your own bullsh!t? Or is this just for us?


"It also helps when the machine you use is standard of the industry to start with."

What industry standard does CAT set? Also like we have discussed many times. The 305 CAT excavator is "SUSHI". Just like my Takeuchi and the IHI before that. I have never had to wait for parts on any excavator. No matter if my excavtors and skid steers are being serviced or repaired and are down I always get free rental. Like I have said, CAT doesn't have the patent on good service to their customers and in some markets actually have a more poor repuation than anyone else.

Scag48
03-14-2006, 12:33 AM
Well, looks like Cat didn't get the sale. Just works out that way sometimes, don't feel too bad about it. They didn't deliver the goods, not your fault. Kind of a bummer the Kubota guys won't let you demo, that's kinda BS. Maybe you can find somewhere to rent a Kubota for a couple days. In the end, you're probably best off with the 161 with all the goodies.

Gravel Rat
03-14-2006, 12:34 AM
You guys must have some real pizz poor dealers in the US. The dealers in Western Canada that deal with the common brands are fast and courteous.

If your machine is breaking down all the time you are abusing the machine. I used to repair equipment. Like I said a brandnew machine SHOULD NOT need repairs for atleast a year into service.

If you really need the dealer to supply you with parts and do the repairs for you good god you must loose thousands of dollars each year.

As I said daily inspections prevents down time its not rocket science if you spot a problem repair the d*mn thing. Ya you guys are landscapers but you have to do your own minor repairs no wonder Cat loves you guys they send out a service man and charge you a couple hundred dollars and you pay it.

When operating the machine you should be conscious of odd smells,weird sounds and squeeks etc.

I still can't figure out your guys fobia over the sushi machines as Bill calls them there isn't anything wrong with them.

When you have forestry contractors running nothing but Hitachi excavtors road building making more money per hour than what you landscapers would ever dream off. Do you really think they would be buying a machine that isn't reliable I don't think so. Down time for those machines costs 300-350 dollars per hour each day those machines make 3 grand.

Same goes with a excavation contractor that operates a 16 ton excavator working a 8 hour day the machine makes 800 a day. Some of this guys have 40 years in the excavation business.

So the way you guys talk Cat must need repairs on a regular basis if you need the Cat dealer nurse maiding you.

It makes me laugh when Bill figures Cat is industry standard :confused:

thepawnshop
03-14-2006, 01:00 AM
As far as Mini's go, Deere really does need to revamp their line. I absolutely LOVE my 35D...I just need a machine with more azz, and I figure if I'm going to upgrade, may as well get all the bells and whistles with it.

Scag, I'm with you...I really want to demo the machine, but honestly, that won't be a deal breaker. Now had you guys not bragged on it there would be no way in hell I would buy it with out having it on my site for a few days at least.

Not to beat up on Bill, but do many/any of you OTHER guys get $150 an hour for a skidsteer or mini?

Thanks to all who tried to help. I would still love to hear what Cat dealers around the country are asking for thier 305c's, though!

Dirty Water
03-14-2006, 01:01 AM
It makes me laugh when Bill figures Cat is industry standard :confused:

Its common for people to endorse american brands (Ford, cat whatever) as industry standard and dismiss foreign competition as "sushi".

Domestic companies love this train of thought, because they can overprice and sell a inferior product and people will still buy it (GM and Ford come to mind). If it wasn't for the competition from Hitachi, Cat would probably still be uncomfortable ackward machines without variable displacement pumps.

Japanese companies know that in order to make a sell, they need to have a machine that goes above and beyond, and for the most part they deliver. Still, brand loyalty goes a long way.

I'm not brand loyal at all. I'll buy what I find suits my needs, whether its a car/truck/excavator/trencher etc.

Scag48
03-14-2006, 02:58 AM
GR, you guys only get $800 a day for a 160 size machine?! That's nuts, we get $650 a day for a 7,500 pound mini. Don't know how you could afford to keep the machine running with those prices.

Gravel Rat
03-14-2006, 03:10 AM
The hourly rate for 15-20 ton excavators is 100-200 per hour a 12,000lb mini is around 80 per hour. As for a 6000lb mini a homeowner of building contractor can rent one for 350 dollars a day.

Scag48
03-14-2006, 03:47 AM
$80 an hour for a 12,000 machine and then only $100 an hour for a 160 size machine? That doesn't pencil out, you'd be clearing WAY more profit running the smaller machine. Sounds like you need to be your own boss GR, break away, buy a 161, join the rest of us, and go get 'em!

UNISCAPER
03-14-2006, 10:02 AM
As a matter of fact, I do, the only problem is that it is not BS, it's the truth weather you choose to see reality or not.

murray83
03-14-2006, 02:00 PM
$100/canadian fer an excavator is good my first gig was a small guy backhoe/excavator he's get $50/$90 for his gear and that $800 is based on a 8 hour day which is kinda slack 10-12 hour days are more common.

my opinion brand name means nothing and cat is overpriced for whats put into them and in each type of equipment the competition is getting better and better each year, for years (around here that is,other areas vary) cat loaders were king. last say 10 years almost all i see now are volvo's same with dozers most are deere now. simply put cat thought it was king and it got into the cat dealers head it was unstoppable,pissed off so many companys with its attitude.. they left.they have a bad rep with small firms,they outcasted themselves with the dot and many large contractors,as i said earlier they really need to get their head out of their ass why should a guy pay more for a machine cuz it says cat on it?

most on here are landscapers/mini equipment operators/owners and someone say gravel rat is used to more hardcore situations 2 different areas,2 totally different situations and should be taken into account.

just my 2 cents and remember opinions are like @ssholes....everyone has them lol

ksss
03-14-2006, 06:29 PM
That tilt blade feature sure is expensive on the 305. Would it be utilized enough to make it worth it? The bid seems high for that size machine but it is obvious by the email that it isn't going any lower. That 308 on Iron plant should be inspected anytime. It might be worth looking.


Uniscaper, I guess we have different versions of reality and I'll leave it at that.

I had read that in three years Deere took over the small and mid size dozer market. Its pretty incredible when you consider how intrenched CAT was in that market. CAT will always sell machines. There are many guys like Uniscaper that for better or worse it will always be CAT, however there are not as many as there used to be.

vntgrcr
03-14-2006, 10:05 PM
Doug,
I will reply once more. I did demo the 305 when I was shopping and it just didn't compare to the 161. Plus as you have found out, the local CAT dealer wanted $71K for a basic machine without A/C, radio/ thumb/ angle blade. I was floored that he would qoute me with a straight face. And if you buy new, you take care of the machine, you really shouldn't need any "service" for quite a while. There was someone on here who either had a 161 or knew a guy with one that in 2000+ hours has only needed a fan belt on his 161. My local dealer also didn't have a machine for me to demo, but had a relationship with a customer he had just sold one to that allowed me to run his machine around a little and get a feel for it. In reality, they are all pretty similiar. I found the 305 cab a little tight, but the Kubota isn't much better. In my opinion, if you decide to take the plunge and order one sight unseen, you will be nervous but you will be very satisfied once it comes in.

thepawnshop
03-14-2006, 10:35 PM
David, Thanks for taking the time to post again...this is REALLY a tough decision. I have really run the gamut here....and I'd be lying if I said that I dodn't want teh Cat 305...especially after listening to QPS rave about the new "C" series. I did go back there (to the Kubota dealer) today and he let me dig some holes in the yard at his lot. It is a nice machine, I just couldn't pull the trigger...yet. His price is awesome...55k for the new 161 with cab/air, 3 buckets and quick connect, hydraulic thumb and angle blade. John Deere is coming at me HARD trying to keep my biz also.

Did you try the 2006 Cat 305 with the new cab? From the looks of the 304 thread it looks really clean and open with nothing on the floor other than travel pedals.

UNISCAPER
03-14-2006, 10:51 PM
There's something about sitting in a Caterpillar feeling the rawest of raw best of best that could ever be, and then settling for something you will end up not liking in the first place. I mean we have Sushi shops opening on every street corner it seems, but when you get a good rare cut of filet, it just can't be beat.

When our dear friend Barbara Deere was still alive, (you guessed it, that's Deere as in John Deere) we used to have some fun ribbing sessions. When she lost a low stakes bet with me she had to let me use a Caterpillar on her estate. If I lost I would have had to rent a JD. JD is actually not such a bad choice. It's just not Caterpillar Yellow!!! And remember, "nothing runs like a Deere, BUT if you want to have 9 lives, you better get a Cat.

:):):):):)

Planet Landscaping
03-14-2006, 10:58 PM
My 2 cents, I have had Kubotas for over 10yrs THEY R TOUGH :weightlifter: to beat. = to Cat @ a lower price. Pull the trigger. After 10 yrs of very few problems with very hard use,I don't even look @ others:nono: . Proven track record is good enough for me. You will Thank me later:rolleyes: ps. Dont tell the competition:laugh:

Planet Landscaping
03-14-2006, 11:02 PM
Oh ya, our new KX121-3 angleblade,Thumb,auto idle is AWESOME:clapping: I just call the dealer and they drop em off at the shop.:cool2:

tylermckee
03-14-2006, 11:17 PM
Buy the kubota, and throw the 15K you save not buying CAT into your dumtruck/trackloader fund

thepawnshop
03-14-2006, 11:41 PM
OK..I don't want to wear out my welcome on this topic BUT...

the Kubota dealer was kind enough to let me come down and dig some holes wiht the machine. I have a couple of observations I was hoping that the Kubota guys could weigh in on.

1. When I sunk the bucket into the ground (it was an 18" bucket), the arm couldn't pull it out...I had to curl the bucket to break free. Once I did, it was a digging fool. It seemed to have strong bucket digging force, but the stick digging force seemed to belacking a bit.

2. When traveleing at high speed, I could not push one travel stick forward and pull the other back for a quick turn...I had to put it in low gear to do that. Is that normal?

vntgrcr
03-15-2006, 07:16 AM
OK..I don't want to wear out my welcome on this topic BUT...

the Kubota dealer was kind enough to let me come down and dig some holes wiht the machine. I have a couple of observations I was hoping that the Kubota guys could weigh in on.

1. When I sunk the bucket into the ground (it was an 18" bucket), the arm couldn't pull it out...I had to curl the bucket to break free. Once I did, it was a digging fool. It seemed to have strong bucket digging force, but the stick digging force seemed to belacking a bit.
Doug, Depending on how far you had the stick out,leverage is going to play into that scenario. The closer you had the bucket to the machine, the easier it will be for the "arm" to pull the bucket out. Once you run the machine for a while you will come to understand it's characteristics. And any machine will work the same way. Look at the specs of the K compared to the others, it has the highest breakout force.

2. When traveleing at high speed, I could not push one travel stick forward and pull the other back for a quick turn...I had to put it in low gear to do that. Is that normal?
Yes this is very normal. It caught me by surprise as well. I think that it is using so much Hyd. pressure to run in high that it is like trying to start off a manual car in 4th gear.
And so Bill, whom I respect immensely, doesn't think that I am speaking foolishly, I have the Kubota excavator,but also a CAT 257 that I love and will stay with!! But the dealer/salesman support here sucks. I talked to the local salesman last week about a dozer blade and possibly a landscape rake. He said " I will get back to you right away about pricing, etc." I havn't heard squat from him in over a week. I even complained to his boss when I was shopping for an excavator and I had hoped that the problem wouldn't happen again after that ordeal. So dealers are all different. I just get pissed when I am trying to spend my hard earned $ and someone just blows me off, especially when it is their job to take my $!!!! Just venting, sorry.

Planet Landscaping
03-15-2006, 07:33 AM
Very normal, Mine do the same. U cant go wrong with The Cat Or Kubota. I just have stuck with what I know is topnotch. I buy orange as its a better value for my $.:clapping: Bill

Squizzy246B
03-15-2006, 07:41 AM
That is smmmeeeeee...and its nearly 3000 now. More about that later.

Squizzy246B
03-15-2006, 07:52 AM
There was someone on here who either had a 161 or knew a guy with one that in 2000+ hours has only needed a fan belt on his 161.

See above post

thepawnshop
03-18-2006, 07:29 PM
Well, here is the response form my Cat daler regarding the 305 C CR price he quoted....if you can't tell, he is being and incredibloe smart a$$. Man, he has REALLY rubbed me wrong. Right now, I wouldn't care if he was GIVING away the machine...I'd tell hime where he could park it!

Doug, Sorry, I cannot help you. I find the pricing that your Friend has received, very hard to believe. I wonder how a dealer can sell below cost?? Good luck on your search. Oh, I meant to ask you. How do you like the JD50? Thanks,

ON a serious note, I really don't care how nice a machine they are putting out, I am not interested.

thepawnshop
03-18-2006, 09:20 PM
Please disregard my previous post...I did that right after reading an email from the Cat salesguy and it rubbed me wrong and I mouthed off before thinking things out. I should not have done that and I apologize. I do not think, in hindsight, that the delaer was being a smart a$$, in fact, I think he was being sincere...at his dealership they can not go any lower and I am fine with that. Also, he has boviously been by my jobsite becasue there is a 50D sitting there, but it belongs to a buddy of mine that is installing a couple of sewer lines for me. It is a nice machine, though....

Once again, igonore my previous post and accept my sincerest apologies!

vntgrcr
03-19-2006, 09:40 AM
Please disregard my previous post...I did that right after reading an email from the Cat salesguy and it rubbed me wrong and I mouthed off before thinking things out. I should not have done that and I apologize. I do not think, in hindsight, that the delaer was being a smart a$$, in fact, I think he was being sincere...at his dealership they can not go any lower and I am fine with that. Also, he has boviously been by my jobsite becasue there is a 50D sitting there, but it belongs to a buddy of mine that is installing a couple of sewer lines for me. It is a nice machine, though....

Once again, igonore my previous post and accept my sincerest apologies!
Doug, my take on it is he IS being smug and a smartass. I am also very sour on salesman right now for reasons mentioned earlier. It is your large chunk of money and you need to spend it where you want in the most effecient way possible. Please let us know which way you go.
David

Tigerotor77W
03-20-2006, 12:30 PM
Doug, without knowing the guy, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and think that he is being sincere to some extent. Cat's costs are going up; I may have mentioned this before, but it's possible to get a Komatsu D475 for a quarter million cheaper and 50 weeks in advance of a D11R. Dealers are feeling the pressure because they simply can't you a cheaper price for a comparable machine. It's unfortunate (coming from a Cat lover, mind you) that Cat has to lose business this way, but that's competition for you. If there's a better total package out there, that's what you'll get.

Now this isn't to say that the salesman isn't looking to gain -- certainly he wants to know how the JD is doing so that when he goes up against a Deere mini-ex, he can compete better in the future. But ask him if he'd rather have another Cat customer now versus later... I'd bet he'd want you in his stable of Cat-loving owners today!

NateV
03-20-2006, 08:58 PM
how much deeper can you go with the long stick?

JDSKIDSTEER
03-20-2006, 09:19 PM
Please disregard my previous post...I did that right after reading an email from the Cat salesguy and it rubbed me wrong and I mouthed off before thinking things out. I should not have done that and I apologize. I do not think, in hindsight, that the delaer was being a smart a$$, in fact, I think he was being sincere...at his dealership they can not go any lower and I am fine with that. Also, he has boviously been by my jobsite becasue there is a 50D sitting there, but it belongs to a buddy of mine that is installing a couple of sewer lines for me. It is a nice machine, though....

Once again, igonore my previous post and accept my sincerest apologies!

Kubota's are selling strong in our area. We hold our own when customer is not interested in angle blade. The only thing CAT has on Kubota is parts availability. Any time I trade in a Kubota product it takes 4 to 5 business days to get parts when reconditioning. I would seriously consider Kubota if local dealer has good reputation and will supply a loaner when down. The good thing is that everyones machines seem to hold up well and for-see very little if any down time.

thepawnshop
03-20-2006, 09:48 PM
how much deeper can you go with the long stick?

twelve inches