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CNYScapes
03-12-2006, 05:38 PM
Do any of you guys wet down and tamp your stone dust before screeding?

cgland
03-12-2006, 05:39 PM
You shouldn't be using stone dust at all. Use washed sand. Something that is better graded than stone dust.

Chris

CNYScapes
03-12-2006, 06:06 PM
I have always used stone dust because that is what is commonly used in my area. Do you use regular sand? If so, I would guess you keep it covered and dry? And do you tamp that?

mrusk
03-12-2006, 06:39 PM
Surpisingly, most people in my area do use stone dust as the setting bed. I use yellow mason sand.

Grn Mtn
03-12-2006, 10:15 PM
Same here in Rochester, CNYScapes, stone dust is what the yards all carry. The tamper I rent drips water as you go, it sets up the crusher real nice, but I'm not tamping the dust-just lay my pipe down on the crusher and screed the dust then lay the pavers. Then do the final tamp to set everything up.

cgland
03-12-2006, 10:32 PM
Masons sand is poorly graded and it's particles are rounded (not allowing it to compact well) If you tamp your setting bed, what gives you the interlock you need? You need to set the pavers into the sand via a vibratory plate compactor. This pushes sand up into the joints and in conjunction with your joint sand gives you the interlock that the paving system needs for strength and longevity.

Chris

Dreams To Designs
03-13-2006, 07:13 AM
Using stone dust is the old way that masons dry laid stone or slates for walkways and patios. Concrete sand is the best way to gain interlock on concrete pavers. As Chris said, no compacting until after all the pavers are laid, then compacting will force the concrete sand up and into the gaps between the pavers where it will initiate the interlocking process. Using the same sand, or better yet, topping with a polymer sand and compacting again will achieve proper interlock.

Compacted stone dust can also create a nearly impenetrable layer that water will sheet off of rather than percolate through. Stone dust is not recommended as a base material for this same reason. 3/4" minus or whatever you call the base in your region contains larger pieces, up to 3/4" and all the way down to dust. It is easily compacted, makes a sturdy base, but allows water penetration and drainage.

Kirk

amvega
03-13-2006, 05:33 PM
To all of you guys that use stone dust. Take a pinch of it in your fingers. Get it wet and then rub it together. You will see why you should not use to dust. It over time will dissolve. Farmers use stone dust to lime their fields with because it will slowly dissolve. If you read your paver installation guide I am sure it will tell you to use a concrete sand. They don't tell you for no reason. And you say everybody else uses that in your area, well there would be my main selling point. If you want your walkway to last forever like the pavers then you guys should start using concrete sand you will never have a call be for paver sinking again.

Grn Mtn
03-13-2006, 07:31 PM
Yeah I hear what your saying and I've read the manuals, but you use what is available. And stone dust is what is retailed.

kris
03-13-2006, 07:39 PM
Yeah I hear what your saying and I've read the manuals, but you use what is available. And stone dust is what is retailed.

Personally I think that is a piss poor excuse ... they must have washed sand in your area and I bet its cheaper than stone dust/screenings.

amvega
03-13-2006, 08:03 PM
Is there a concrete plant around? I'm sure you guys have some concrete sidewalks so they have to get concrete somewhere. Just go there and tell them you need some concrete sand. We pay $15.00 a ton when we get it from them. It's there it just not has cheap as stone dust but that's because there is a big difference.

mrusk
03-13-2006, 08:34 PM
So you guys don't recommend using mason sand? The sand used in mortar?

amvega
03-13-2006, 08:40 PM
No. I've heard of guys using that for the joint sand, but like your base you want to have a combination of different sizes of sand particles.

kris
03-13-2006, 09:08 PM
So you guys don't recommend using mason sand? The sand used in mortar?

No, Bedding sand used under pavers is different than Masonary sand ..its often called Concrete sand. It has particles that are generally sharp, washed, with no foreign material.
It should be spread to a consistent thickness....around 2.5cm

steve in Pa.
03-13-2006, 09:53 PM
hey grn mt. so what your saying is if all the other landscapers jumped off a bridge and died, you would also jump from the bridge because everyone else did??????:hammerhead: as amvega stated limestone dust will dissolve over time. it may look good at first but over the years it will FAIL mother natures wrath!!!!!:drinkup: :drinkup: :drinkup:

CAG
03-13-2006, 10:02 PM
i have always used stone dust because people have said the sand attracts ants and i have actually seen ants pulling the sand out from in between the paver's. whats is your guys/gals opinion's or thoughts on this??

cgland
03-13-2006, 10:24 PM
CAG - We use polymeric sand as a standard in all of our installations, so it is never an issue.

Chris

kris
03-14-2006, 07:35 AM
We also use polymeric on all our residential but not commercial yet. Until they start spec'ing it in commercial applications its not cost prohibitive.
There are a variety of products available to kill ants, powder, poison cannisters etc etc.

CNYScapes
03-14-2006, 09:00 AM
so do you guys keep this concrete sand dry or doesnt it matter? I might have to try it if I can get some.

Grn Mtn
03-14-2006, 12:59 PM
... so what your saying is if all the other landscapers jumped off a bridge and died, you would also jump from the bridge because everyone else did??????:hammerhead...

What kind of idiot do you take me for:dizzy: I buy my stuff from a hardscaping company thats been in business over 30years and this is what they supply to us. I too voiced my concerns but they assured me that stone dust is okay to use, who am I to argue with someone who specializes in it.

You know I hope you were kidding because its stupid comments like that which clog up a generally useful interface.

I will however look into this concrete sand thing.

Grn Mtn
03-14-2006, 01:07 PM
i have always used stone dust because people have said the sand attracts ants and i have actually seen ants pulling the sand out from in between the paver's. whats is your guys/gals opinion's or thoughts on this??

My yard is mostly sand and this was a fear of mine when I put in my patio, but my dealer recommended the polymer sand others have mentioned and I HIGHLY swear by it. NO ANT problems and NO WEEDs growing in the cracks.

IT is expensive, $24 per 50# bag compared to $3 for sand, but I haven't had to replace any after a year and hosing down the walkway hasn't hurt it either.

Grn Mtn
03-14-2006, 01:13 PM
To all of you guys that use stone dust. Take a pinch of it in your fingers. Get it wet and then rub it together. You will see why you should not use to dust. It over time will dissolve. Farmers use stone dust to lime their fields with because it will slowly dissolve....

I thought lime was yellow/white in nature, our stone dust were using is just fines left over from the crushing process (I assume--yeah I know) I had a leftover pile the size of a wheel burrow on my driveway fall thru winter and it remained the same?

kris
03-14-2006, 01:43 PM
I buy my stuff from a hardscaping company thats been in business over 30years and this is what they supply to us. I too voiced my concerns but they assured me that stone dust is okay to use, who am I to argue with someone who specializes in it.



Do they have a website? I have yet to see a manufacturer of paving stone recommend using screenings as a leveling layer. Guess there could be a first for everything.

neversatisfiedj
03-14-2006, 02:22 PM
I can't believe we are spending all this time on this thread. !

amvega
03-14-2006, 02:32 PM
I thought lime was yellow/white in nature, our stone dust were using is just fines left over from the crushing process (I assume--yeah I know) I had a leftover pile the size of a wheel burrow on my driveway fall thru winter and it remained the same?

I have never seen yellow lime. The white is powder lime. Here where I'm from the stone that is used is a limestone, so the fines that are left is actually used by farmers alot to lime fields. I'm not saying it dissolves over winter, stone dust takes about 1 to 1 1/2 years to start to dissolves. Palletized lime takes 6 to 8 months to dissolve and the powder takes about 3 months to dissolve. All I am saying is over time it will start to dissolve, but if you think I wrong maybe you should talk to the guys at ICPI.

amvega
03-14-2006, 02:37 PM
What kind of idiot do you take me for:dizzy: I buy my stuff from a hardscaping company thats been in business over 30years and this is what they supply to us. I too voiced my concerns but they assured me that stone dust is okay to use, who am I to argue with someone who specializes in it.

You know I hope you were kidding because its stupid comments like that which clog up a generally useful interface.

I will however look into this concrete sand thing.


I'm sure if you ask them if they put pavers in for a living they'll tell you no. All they do is sell the pavers. I'm sure they've never even taken a paver installation class either. It's just like anything else, there's a right way and a wrong way, you are doing it the wrong way.

kris
03-14-2006, 02:45 PM
I can't believe we are spending all this time on this thread. !


LOL ...hey its all good .... the more time spent discussing proper installation standards the better. If we can change the way just one company installs ,its worth it and the better the industry will be.:)

neversatisfiedj
03-14-2006, 03:34 PM
Very well said Kris - after all I have alot to learn - my co. only on its 2nd year. I'm still wet behind the ears.

YardPro
03-14-2006, 06:43 PM
All I am saying is over time it will start to dissolve, but if you think I wrong maybe you should talk to the guys at ICPI.


when i took the icpi class, they stated over, and over, and over.....

LIMESTONE IS NOT ACCEPTED AS EITHER A BASE OR SETTING BED...they were very insistant that we new that it was not good to use.

the reason they give is that limestone is elongated particles that can slide across each other and can cause movement

Grn Mtn
03-14-2006, 10:05 PM
...I have never seen yellow lime...if you think I wrong maybe you should talk to the guys at ICPI...

I didn't say yellow lime, I don't think you are wrong, infact I don't know why were talking about LIMESTONE. No one is using it here, the stone dust being sold is not LIMESTONE (to my knowledge)

Kris, www.millerbrick.com

sheshovel
03-14-2006, 10:24 PM
Regardless the answer is the same do not use stone dust as your base.Use Concrete sand..and Polymer sand.So no stone dust is not screed because it is not used by most installers.

Grn Mtn
03-15-2006, 08:56 AM
Just got off the phone with Miller Brick, the stone dust is made from Dolomite. They said that in some area's of the country stone dust has a high concentration of salts, ours do not. Stone dust is very abundant and concrete sand is not, this is why they carry it instead.

Okay, I'm done talking about it:hammerhead:

amvega
03-15-2006, 05:26 PM
Just got off the phone with Miller Brick, the stone dust is made from Dolomite. They said that in some area's of the country stone dust has a high concentration of salts, ours do not. Stone dust is very abundant and concrete sand is not, this is why they carry it instead.

Okay, I'm done talking about it:hammerhead:

So I guess they now more about paver then the engineers that make that pavers.

cgland
03-15-2006, 09:43 PM
Let's just face it! Some people fear change and will never adapt in this industry. Nuff said!

Chris

kris
03-16-2006, 05:04 AM
I guess that is sad but true Chris ...but, there will be a day I believe that consumers will be much more educated and will ask contractors why they aren't installing as per industry standards. We are doing our part and I know our supplier is doing theres.
Truth is Chris, when you talk about well graded material ....poorly graded material there are some I'm sure that have no idea what you are talking about or the reasons why well graded is needed...perhaps we need a thread on sieve analysis?
There is more resources now to help guys out... hell if you are reading this you have a computer!:)
Remember, pavers are still fairly new to North America ...they are installing billions more sq/ft then us in Europe...... they will be huge some day here too.

Ps grn mtn ...is this the Miller brick company you spoke of? Since they claim to be the biggest suppliers of Belgard products in the country and I know Belgard wouldn't suggest you install with Stone Dust ...someone at Miller is giving you wrong info.

http://www.millerbrick.com/landscape.html

GreenMonster
03-16-2006, 07:59 AM
I still fail to understand why guys are still using stonedust instead of concrete sand.... I assume it's primarily due to what CG said - afraid of change.

Forget about ICPI, read the install instruction in a Techo, Bolduc, or Belgard brochure. They all say concrete sand. Jeez.

BTW, I was very surprised when my ICPI instructor said he didn't think it was that big of a deal to use granite screenings (abundant around here).

mrusk
03-16-2006, 08:39 AM
How about granite stone dust? This is directly from my local paver manufactures website.. "SETTING BED - A setting bed of concrete sand or granite stone dust can now be spread on top of the compacted base."

AWJ Services
03-18-2006, 09:20 PM
Alot of guys here use granite sand or M-10 as the suppliers call it.
I have tried both and have not seen a difference in the outcome of the finished product.
All the sales reps for the paver companies are saying too use granite sand?
It kinda confuses the installer.

MarcusLndscp
03-19-2006, 08:43 PM
I still fail to understand why guys are still using stonedust instead of concrete sand.... I assume it's primarily due to what CG said - afraid of change.

Forget about ICPI, read the install instruction in a Techo, Bolduc, or Belgard brochure. They all say concrete sand. Jeez.

BTW, I was very surprised when my ICPI instructor said he didn't think it was that big of a deal to use granite screenings (abundant around here).

Mark, I am going to correct you here. When I first moved to this fine state :dizzy: I was introduced to the Bolduc products at Gilbert Block. I grabbed one of the brochures for Bolduc and right in the specs it actually said that you could use either Concrete sand OR Stone dust. I'm not saying it's right but the brochure right from the supplier actually recommended stone dust. I was awful surprised. :hammerhead:

Grn Mtn
03-20-2006, 08:06 AM
....the brochure right from the supplier actually recommended stone dust. I was awful surprised. ..

Has anyone considered the possibility that Stone Dust is just a name, and the make-up of it can vary depending on what is in the region it is manufactured and the ICPI just takes the safe road recommends a known, consistent product.

The block manufactures rely on their distributors/retail outlets to inventory what is available and meets their recommendations.

GreenMonster
03-20-2006, 01:43 PM
Mark, I am going to correct you here. When I first moved to this fine state :dizzy: I was introduced to the Bolduc products at Gilbert Block. I grabbed one of the brochures for Bolduc and right in the specs it actually said that you could use either Concrete sand OR Stone dust. I'm not saying it's right but the brochure right from the supplier actually recommended stone dust. I was awful surprised. :hammerhead:

You're right, Mark. I just looked at a Bolduc brochure, and sure enough, concrete sand OR stone dust. Same with Techo. My question now, is why are they still doing this?

Grn Mtn, if the make up of any stone dust, or sand for that matter, is such that there are fines passing thru the 200 sieve, it shouldn't be used.

neversatisfiedj
03-20-2006, 01:56 PM
We're still on this . I saw two guys at a local supplier that were using stone dust under pavers on Sat.

arnoldoutdoor
03-20-2006, 11:01 PM
hey, cnyscapes, use the stone dust, and tamp it first. use a jumping jack or a vibratory tamper, or if you're really energetic, use a hand tamper, but get that base nice and hard. You would never want to lay down 6+ inches of base, untamped, and screed it, then lay down your pavers, how would you ever be able to determine before hand the final level of your pavers that way. your base is going to pack down different due to moisture content, temperature, etc. so you would do things in this order: excavate, put up whatever forms you are going to use around the outside of the area, dump your base material in, tamp, lay your pipes in at the level of the forms, add or subtract base material as needed, re-tamp, screed, add or subtract again, tamp, screed, repeat as needed. spend 80% of your time on the base and make it as straight and level (or slightly sloped) as humanly possible. lay your brick then fill in the cracks with masonry sand, polymeric sand, or whatever you want, and wash it in with water. and by the way, the stone dust, or crushed limestone sand, will not dissolve if its underneath pavers, only when its directly exposed to the weather. any questions? e-mail me jandbarnold@charter.net

kris
03-21-2006, 05:45 AM
hey, cnyscapes, use the stone dust, and tamp it first. use a jumping jack or a vibratory tamper, or if you're really energetic, use a hand tamper, but get that base nice and hard. You would never want to lay down 6+ inches of base, untamped, and screed it, then lay down your pavers, how would you ever be able to determine before hand the final level of your pavers that way. your base is going to pack down different due to moisture content, temperature, etc. so you would do things in this order: excavate, put up whatever forms you are going to use around the outside of the area, dump your base material in, tamp, lay your pipes in at the level of the forms, add or subtract base material as needed, re-tamp, screed, add or subtract again, tamp, screed, repeat as needed. spend 80% of your time on the base and make it as straight and level (or slightly sloped) as humanly possible. lay your brick then fill in the cracks with masonry sand, polymeric sand, or whatever you want, and wash it in with water. and by the way, the stone dust, or crushed limestone sand, will not dissolve if its underneath pavers, only when its directly exposed to the weather. any questions? e-mail me jandbarnold@charter.net

email you with any questions?:dizzy: Keep your bad advise to yourself.

steve in Pa.
03-21-2006, 07:46 AM
I'm with you on this one kris, just when you think this topic can't get any worse????????:hammerhead: :dizzy: If only homeowners knew what thery were getting!!!!

ma5tr
03-21-2006, 08:51 AM
Hey guys,
I've been paying close attention to this thread, and its pretty funny that people use stone dust because it whats available at stone yards!! Stone Dust IS a HUGE no no for paver installation.

Here in Toronto the first sign that the stuff was a problem is when a Huge paver manufacturing co. (UNILOCK) advised that stone dust(limestone screening) should be used as a bedding layer/base in paver installs in their spec guides awhile back (1975's-85's). Because they were one of the first paver manufacturing co. people took there word. As time went on and Toronto's use of pavers grew, so did the problems. Stone bottoms began to decay because water would not drain, paver installs looked wavy after a few years because of freeze thaw cycles. Unilock was sued, although i dont know the outcome, I know that Stone dust is BAD. There specs changed and so did many of the other paver company specs. People should try Granular 'A' (typically refered to as 3/4" crusher run here in Toronto, however it is NOT the same thing.) Find a material that contains sand and small round pebbles. It compacts like you would not believe, and it is easy to tell when it compacts fully as the sand and finer particles moves to the surface. It is what is used typically in Northern sideroads, building foundation construction, roadway construction etc.

Finaly just because your stone yard sells it DOES NOT mean it is the right stuff!!!!! Stone yards in this area sell flagstone from india, china etc... but you lay that stuff in our climate(depends on wet or dry laid) and your gonna have a crumble walkway in 15 years.

Grn Mtn
03-21-2006, 07:11 PM
Arnoldoutdoor and ma5tr, were not using stone dust as our FOUNDATION, were using crusher run (compacted) then using stone dust as the leveling pad at 1".

I believe the original question by CNYScapes was do "you" wet tamp the stone dust.-- No you wouldn't want to tamp your leveling base until you have set your pavers on it.

Speaking of which, how many guys put fabric over the pavers to prevent scuffing from the tamper?

Mark, return question for you: the purpose of not having the fines is so the leveling pad will pass water according to ICPI, but what difference does it make if your using polymeric sand? That stuff certainly doesn't pass water its like grout.

MarcusLndscp
03-21-2006, 07:31 PM
What??? There's something wrong with 6" of stone dust under your pavers? :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :laugh:

ma5tr
03-21-2006, 07:39 PM
Ok. I just got REALLY confused.

I understand you are using stone dust as a bedding layer. But that is a NO NO. Use concrete sand.

And you should only tamp your bedding layer once the pavers have been placed on it (which at the time of placing your pavers the bedding layer is loose, uncompacted, but screeded) Once the paver are placed on you run a tamper over the pavers, thus embedding them into the bedding layer which works up into the creases of the pavers. You are also adding sand above to lock the pavers in place via friction.

You should wet your base material to aquire a denser compaction.

steve in Pa.
03-21-2006, 10:17 PM
This dead horse thread is like the energizer bunny it keeps going, and going and going. Some people will never change no matter how wrong it is what there doing. :laugh::hammerhead: :laugh: :hammerhead: :laugh::hammerhead: :laugh:

DVS Hardscaper
03-22-2006, 09:55 AM
I did not read all 50 some responses.

first of all let me say that this has been addressed previously on this board, so try executing a search of the archives!

The PROPER technical name is pavers is 'Interlocking Concrete pavers'

Ok, lets look at the word "Interlocking".

People tend to think the word "interlocking" derives from the various sizes and shapes that pavers are offered in. This IS NOT the case, folks.

the word "interlocking" is derived from the construction method.

There is one material and ONLY one material that should EVER be used for bedding tha pavers. And that is WASHED CONCRETE SAND. Not stone dust, not any other form of aggregate.

The washed concrete sand is what beds the pavers and allows a properly constructed pavement to "interlock".

Stone dust DOES NOT.

Stone dust is a breeding ground for effloresence.

I do not care if washed concrete sand is not available in your area. Set forth the effort and LOCATE IT.

I do not care if other dudes in your market are using stone dust to bed pavers! THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG.

What I am writing IS NOT theory. Not opinions. This is a FACT.

There are NO exceptions.

Glad to help,

Mr. DVS
http://www.outdoorfinishes.com

Grn Mtn
03-22-2006, 10:19 AM
Yeah what I think is funny is how some people are so into the whole broken record reply of you can't use stone dust because...blah blah blah thing, that not one of these guys even answered or paid attention too questions like all stone dust is not the same, it is the only thing available, it is what 30+ year trusted and reliable suppliers are offering and the reasons listed for not using "stone dust" are contradictory.

So before one more person jumps on the lets hammer some heads and act all cool because "I" can repeat what others have said (rally around that water hole guys)....bandwagon, why don't you re-read some of the posts in this thread and intelligently answer those unanswered questions that bear some merit.

GreenMonster
03-22-2006, 11:07 AM
Ah sh!t. My whole lengthly reply did not post :angry:, including quotes from ICPI manual

stonedust, granite screenings, limestone screenings are flat and elongated, and do not posess the hardness characteristics of concrete sand. Therefore stonedust does not completely compact, leading to future settling. Water can also cause these particles to break down, also resulting in settling. Pavers and poly sand are mostly non-permeable, but not completely. I would think water can enter into the bedding sand horizotnally during high water table, spring thaw, or rain water that does not run-off away from the pavers/base.

DVS Hardscaper
03-22-2006, 11:40 AM
Roald Hughes - leveling pad, bedding, etc.

it dont matter.

stone dust has NO place with an interlocking concrete pavement PERIOD.

Not even for the base.

as far as "wetting down". yes, we wet down the crusher run base as we apply it and compact.

For the bedding material - you want it loose. Thats what locks the pavers as they are compacted into place.

Anyone having stone dust anywhere near a patio gig is building a patio incorrectly and needs to stick with cutting yards.

This board contains text. You can not see facial expressions or hear tone of voice. Sorry if this sounds nasty, as its not intended that way.

http://www.outdoorfinishes.com

neversatisfiedj
03-22-2006, 12:48 PM
Dvs great site ! Your work is super.

allprogreens
03-22-2006, 01:20 PM
We manufacturer synthetic golf greens
We use the stone dust as the base for the greens

Our install requires us to wet the base, then use the vibratory plate compactor to tamp the base, then screed the base, and tamp again

This ensures a solid foundation

Chris
All Pro Greens
http://www.allprogreens.com/gallery/fringe/big056.jpg

kwaun4151
03-22-2006, 02:11 PM
Sorry if I sound stupid but what is the ICPI people are refering to ?

Grn Mtn
03-22-2006, 02:22 PM
...stonedust, granite screenings, limestone screenings are flat and elongated, and do not posess the hardness characteristics of concrete sand. Therefore stonedust does not completely compact, leading to future settling...

Thanks Mark:weightlifter:

Grn Mtn
03-22-2006, 02:38 PM
...stone dust has NO place with an interlocking concrete pavement PERIOD...Anyone having stone dust anywhere near a patio gig is building a patio incorrectly and needs to stick with cutting yards....

At least Mark (greenmonster) replied intelligently:waving:

You know, if concrete sand was an option, I would get it. Its not like when I'm at Miller Brick I say give me the cheaper stuff because I don't care in 20 years there might be some settling.

Were building "floating" structures meant to move with the freeze thaw cycles, not house foundations below the frost line.

JJfishes
03-22-2006, 04:47 PM
GRN,

I too am from the rochester area and deal with miller brick. Although the Belgard manual does say concrete sand OR screenings, I think you really should be using concrete sand. i ONLY SAY THIS BECAUSE IT IS WHAT THE icpi STATES AND THEY ARE THE ONES THAT DO THE TESTING OF ALL PAVER SYSTEMS no matter who the supplier is. As far as getting concrete sand it is readily available through many of the dolomite quarry or cement plants. I would even check with the manitou plants. Look around, it is available here in Rochester.

Jay

steve in Pa.
03-22-2006, 06:01 PM
Good to see you here Mr. Hardscape! Don't worry I won't tell the other guys. lol. Green mt. do you have a cement plant near you, if so then you have concrete sand available and its not yellow sand. Might want to check into it.

ma5tr
03-22-2006, 06:14 PM
I've worked in many states, provinces and countries. And Concrete Sand is NOT hard to find!!! If you can get concrete in your area you CAN get concrete sand. If you cant get it at your local garden centre or hardscape dealer go to a aggregate supplier!! It will probably be ALOT cheaper that way to!!

Grn Mtn
03-23-2006, 12:29 PM
GRN,

I too am from the rochester area and deal with miller brick. Although the Belgard manual does say concrete sand OR screenings, I think you really should be using concrete sand. i ONLY SAY THIS BECAUSE IT IS WHAT THE icpi STATES AND THEY ARE THE ONES THAT DO THE TESTING OF ALL PAVER SYSTEMS no matter who the supplier is. As far as getting concrete sand it is readily available through many of the dolomite quarry or cement plants. I would even check with the manitou plants. Look around, it is available here in Rochester.

Jay

Okay hello'all, Because hardscaping is something relatively new to me, I've only been doing it for a couple of years and only about a dozen at that, I just have been going by what Miller Brick has been supplying me.

Now that you'all have shown me the light, I made some calls yesterday and will now be getting concrete sand for my leveling bed from Dolomite. I'll have to pick it up myself, but that is the price I'll have to pay to keep you off my back:laugh:

kris
03-23-2006, 12:41 PM
but that is the price I'll have to pay to keep you off my back:laugh:


LOL atta boy!:drinkup:

GreenMonster
03-23-2006, 01:20 PM
Congrats, GrnMtn! :drinkup:

I have almost everything delivered -- except concrete sand. With most patios and walks, such as small amount is needed, it's more cost effective to put it in a 1 ton dump. I'm also very lucky to have a quarry practically in my backyard.

cgland
03-23-2006, 02:30 PM
One converted, 29,000 more to go!:clapping:
Chris

steve in Pa.
03-24-2006, 07:07 AM
good to hear green mt. now only if others would take information from guys who have been doing this for years and make the change to doing things right! Glad to hear your converted. :clapping: :drinkup: :clapping:

TJLANDS
03-24-2006, 09:09 AM
I know I am Little late in this discussion but I wanted to make a point.
Many many landscapers in my area use only stone dust, I however sell the homeowner on the fact that we do it right and that is why I am able to get more per square ft and very often land the bigger jobs,

msanb10
11-24-2007, 02:54 PM
I always use stone dust, compact it and screed it. I started doing it this way because I laid alot of brick walkways and you can't compact brick. And just prefer it. In this area there are fines mixed in with larger particles. With 2" of stonedust compacted it never settles the way sand does and I have looked at walkways I put in up to 15 to 20 years ago.

When you compact it with wetting it down you make it settle in anyway.

Just my experience.

YardPro
11-24-2007, 04:55 PM
LOL, yet another begging for abuse.

you keep doing it your way and when another contractor tells your perspective client you are doing it wrong, and is able to give them printed industry standards detailing exactly why your way is wrong, and your reason, is " well i've always done it that way".... who do you think will get the job...


take some classes and learn the standards that have been developed from 20 years and a lot of research dollars...

PatriotLandscape
11-24-2007, 10:53 PM
It always makes me laugh when people try to combat engineering with "well I have always done it that way". It never gets old. I see you must be using a computer is it twenty years old as well? the technology has changed get with the times.

ChampionLS
11-25-2007, 02:47 AM
An Associate and I were just at a job today, where the entire driveway was laid on Stone Dust. The previous contractor also tried to sweep Stone Dust into the paver joints. Yesterday, for the first time this year (in my area) the weather dipped down into the mid 20's, right after a mild day of rain. You could actually Teeter Totter on some of the 6x9's! The pavers would wobble due to the heaving. We pried a few out, where the joint sand (dust) was missing,and below it was nothing more than a icy layer on top of Stone Dust. This would not happen if Coarse Concrete Sand were to be used.
Furthermore, this driveway never dries out. The joints are always wet, and there is water percolating out from the lowest elevation.