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View Full Version : Benifits of pavers vs. concrete?


mrusk
03-14-2006, 07:09 PM
Guys i know pavers are a better product and longer lasting than concrete. I have a estimate on thrusday where a guy is looking for a new lawn, boulder retaining wall (boulders are already there) and two concrete walkways.

I am going to try to talk the guy out of concrete since i know its going to crack since we live in the north east. Most of all, i know if i install pavers it will just be a better looking job which will make me look like a better landscaper.

So besides cracks, what are some of the other benifits of pavers vs. concrete.

BTW i'd be hiring a finisher for the day if i have to do the conrete.
Matt

MarcusLndscp
03-14-2006, 07:40 PM
It's easy to replace a broken or stained paver where with concrete it's much more difficult

Aesthetics

Value

amvega
03-14-2006, 08:05 PM
Pavers are more eye appealing because of the different colors you can get. Also they will add more value to the house then concrete. But the biggest is when he ends up doing the concrete twice after it cracks it would have been cheaper in the long run.

olderthandirt
03-14-2006, 08:31 PM
Pavers are more eye appealing because of the different colors you can get. Also they will add more value to the house then concrete. But the biggest is when he ends up doing the concrete twice after it cracks it would have been cheaper in the long run.

This only hold true if the persons going to live in the house a loooong time or the person doing the crete does a cheap job. Around here they stay in a house an average of 6 yrs. and crete works well.

Henry
03-14-2006, 08:32 PM
Ask him if he's ever looked at a sidewalk and said "nice concrete"?

RedWingsDet
03-14-2006, 08:40 PM
in a house an average of 6 yrs. and crete works well.

6 years, damn i know people who have been in the same house for 20+ years. lol. I would hate to be moving every 6 years, ive only moved once and I freaking hated it.

olderthandirt
03-14-2006, 08:48 PM
6 years, damn i know people who have been in the same house for 20+ years. lol. I would hate to be moving every 6 years, ive only moved once and I freaking hated it.

Thats average. I've done jobs for customers that never unpacked, they been transferred before they had a chance to even have a lawn put in. But they pay to have you do something to help them sell the house, usually some small beds and plants.

YardPro
03-15-2006, 06:48 AM
6 years, damn i know people who have been in the same house for 20+ years. lol. I would hate to be moving every 6 years, ive only moved once and I freaking hated it.


the national average s only 6-7 years

kris
03-15-2006, 08:30 AM
Reality of life is lots of people will choose concrete over pavers for a variety of reasons... I would guess the number one reason is money.

Paving stone is a different system ...it's flexible. If it heaves with freeze/thaw it will usually settle back down to where it was before.

Concrete always cracks

Interlocking paver surface is stronger than concrete.

Repairs can be made much easier.

Pavers look nicer.

WildLake
03-15-2006, 04:31 PM
In MD, no conrete over septic. Pavers are okay.

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 02:51 PM
All concrete will crack, the trick is to be able to control where the cracks happen, Back in the day this was achieved by installing zip strips in the mud when it was poured. Some people still do this.

The common technique now is to sawcut grooves after curing.

Stamped concrete can be a affordable way to get a nice looking walk if the person is worried about the budget:


http://www.aonesupplyco.com/ashlar%20slate%20stamped%20porch.JPG

Mike33
03-18-2006, 03:33 PM
I was wondering thre same. I install new lawns and have 137 retaining walls under my belt. However i do not do pavers. The reason is simple i am a 2 man operation and dont have the time to do any thing else. But in my area people dont like spending the money. I built a new home for my mother we had stamped concrete installed for sidewalk looks beautiful. My buddy who does pavers and i sub to wanted $3000.00 we got it done st. cocrete for $ 1250.00Thats hard to sell in my area and one reason i dont care to get in to them.
mike.

sheshovel
03-18-2006, 03:41 PM
Those look like stamped concrete pavers.
The difference is simple..Concrete is ugly and pavers are good looking.I would think a paver walk would increase the value of a home more than cement walks and are not as slippery.Giving you a safer nicer looking walkway that will last many many years.

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 03:43 PM
Those look like stamped concrete pavers.
The difference is simple..Concrete is ugly and pavers are good looking.I would think a paver walk would increase the value of a home more than cement walks and are not as slippery.Giving you a safer nicer looking walkway that will last many many years.

Those are not pavers, that is a single slab.

salandscape
03-18-2006, 04:01 PM
I repeat everyones else, curb appeal, Is the walkway going to be straight? If so explain that it will look like a runway!

salandscape
03-18-2006, 04:04 PM
Also calcium cloride, or other ice melts will deteriorate concrete in a few seasons

olderthandirt
03-18-2006, 04:07 PM
I repeat everyones else, curb appeal, Is the walkway going to be straight? If so explain that it will look like a runway!

Not so anymore, they have more differnt stamping patterns and dyes than ever. And how many times can you even see the walk till you pull into a drive? The landscape is usualy shrouding it, like it or not stamped crete gonna be the future

Also calcium cloride, or other ice melts will deteriorate concrete in a few seasons

No more than any driveway. If you don't want damage use an ice melt. And mosy if not all your pavers stones are made of crete

kris
03-18-2006, 04:49 PM
Thats a nice looking job Jon.

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 05:45 PM
Thats a nice looking job Jon.

Thanks, but its not mine, its a sample I found on the net.

We used to do a lot of stamped flagstone, people loved it. With the right die and coating you can get a variety of looks.

sheshovel
03-18-2006, 05:54 PM
Wow that looks great,I have seen it stamped in lots of different ways but that is an aggressive looking stamp I have not seen done around here yet.

WildLake
03-18-2006, 06:52 PM
In my area, stamped concrete is only a couple dollars a square less than pavers. Most have no problem paying the extra for pavers.

mbella
03-18-2006, 07:23 PM
In my area, stamped concrete is only a couple dollars a square less than pavers. Most have no problem paying the extra for pavers.

Same here.

For those that install stamped concrete, how long do you warranty against spalling? I don't know of one concrete installer that gives any warranty against spalling.

Mike33
03-18-2006, 07:58 PM
What kind of warranty does any one give from **** growing between the pavers. I think stamp concrete is on its way to be the in thing. I really dont care i dont do either one. My experience with new home owners there short on budget from over run of new home, they look for a bargain.

mike

mbella
03-18-2006, 08:05 PM
What kind of warranty does any one give from **** growing between the pavers. I think stamp concrete is on its way to be the in thing. I really dont care i dont do either one. My experience with new home owners there short on budget from over run of new home, they look for a bargain.

mike

I'd rather pull weeds than look at spalling concrete. What is cheaper, pulling weeds or repairing spalled concrete?

Stamped concrete may be "on it's way to be the in thing" where you live, but within the area which we service, most people consider concrete (stamped or otherwise) to be inferrior to pavers or natural stone.

kris
03-18-2006, 08:16 PM
The guy has no clue ..he self admitted he doesn't do either. If these guys don't realize that pavers have such a long way to go in terms of the amount of sqft that will be installed in the future then they miss the boat.
Do some research guys...pavers have been around for thousands of years and in those terms are just like a baby here.
I'm all for stamped concrete ...its better than the bland , plain stuff...its still an inferior product.

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 08:20 PM
I'm all for stamped concrete ...its better than the bland , plain stuff...its still an inferior product.

Agreed, but its a good bang for your buck if the customer is trying to stay within a budget.

Mike, surface spalling can be prevented with regular coating. In area's that suffer from lots of frost heave, I wouldn't reccomend concrete.

http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=660

This link has some good info on preventing spalling.

mbella
03-18-2006, 08:28 PM
Agreed, but its a good bang for your buck if the customer is trying to stay within a budget.

Mike, surface spalling can be prevented with regular coating. In area's that suffer from lots of frost heave, I wouldn't reccomend concrete.

http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=660

This link has some good info on preventing spalling.

Jon, that doesn't answer my question. Do you know of a concrete installer that warranties against spalling?

One other thing, typically, this area experiences more freeze/thaw events than any other area in the country.

GreenMonster
03-18-2006, 08:32 PM
I believe Kris is dead on in his prediction of growing paver sales in the U.S.

Besides, you don't have to pull weeds if you use poly sand.

mbella
03-18-2006, 08:35 PM
I believe Kris is dead on in his prediction of growing paver sales in the U.S.

Besides, you don't have to pull weeds if you use poly sand.

Mark, you're right about the weeds and polymer, but it's not a guarantee.

Also, you're right about the growing paver sales. Around here, it used to be that every new home got a deck. However, currently, most new homes are getting pavers or natural stone.

kootoomootoo
03-18-2006, 09:23 PM
Mark, you're right about the weeds and polymer, but it's not a guarantee.

Also, you're right about the growing paver sales. Around here, it used to be that every new home got a deck. However, currently, most new homes are getting pavers or natural stone.

Back home there is no basements.......no freeze thaw = paver central.

Cg said you were too good for us mike? New shop and all.

mbella
03-18-2006, 09:29 PM
Back home there is no basements.......no freeze thaw = paver central.

Cg said you were too good for us mike? New shop and all.

You confuse me. Freeze/thaw should=paver central, not no freeze/thaw.

olderthandirt
03-18-2006, 09:35 PM
Jon, that doesn't answer my question. Do you know of a concrete installer that warranties against spalling?

One other thing, typically, this area experiences more freeze/thaw events than any other area in the country.

Mike , I know 2 companies that guarantee against spalling for 1 yr. They treat the hell out of it with euco when there finished and it will last a yr and many more if its continued to be treated.

New home owners are being offered the opportunity to have a stamped patio put in the same day as there drive at a lower cost than pavers. Thats where the competitions is. NOW & FAST

mbella
03-18-2006, 09:41 PM
Mike , I know 2 companies that guarantee against spalling for 1 yr. They treat the hell out of it with euco when there finished and it will last a yr and many more if its continued to be treated.

New home owners are being offered the opportunity to have a stamped patio put in the same day as there drive at a lower cost than pavers. Thats where the competitions is. NOW & FAST

WOW! A whole year? How about a lifetime warranty with pavers.

kootoomootoo
03-18-2006, 09:54 PM
You confuse me. Freeze/thaw should=paver central, not no freeze/thaw.

You are easily confused.

...........no basements means either paver or stamped concrete.
...........no freeze thaw means pavers are same price as concrete (cheaper to install)

mbella
03-18-2006, 09:55 PM
You are easily confused.

...........no basements means either paver or stamped concrete.
...........no freeze thaw means pavers are same price as concrete (cheaper to install)


please explain............

olderthandirt
03-18-2006, 09:58 PM
WOW! A whole year? How about a lifetime warranty with pavers.

What goods a lifetime warrenty when they people move every few yrs?

kootoomootoo
03-18-2006, 09:59 PM
please explain............

thought i just did...........?
You can have pavers or something that looks like pavers for the same price.

mbella
03-18-2006, 10:03 PM
What goods a lifetime warrenty when they people move every few yrs?

The lifetime warranty against spalling is from the manufacturer, not the contractor.

mbella
03-18-2006, 10:04 PM
thought i just did...........?
You can have pavers or something that looks like pavers for the same price.


...............................................

kootoomootoo
03-18-2006, 10:08 PM
...............................................


NO DECKS MIKE >>>>>>>>>>>>>> :waving: DO THE MATH

olderthandirt
03-18-2006, 10:12 PM
The lifetime warranty against spalling is from the manufacturer, not the contractor.

Mike I know where the warrenty from I also know that 99.9% of the defects will not be covered by the manufacturer. They don't warrenty against spalling when salt is used there pavers are made out of crete. They may give you a few for replacement but have a rep come out on a $25k job and there not gonna cover it there gonna blame it on the installation or some other trouble that was out of there control same as any other manufacturer.

And if a new homeoner has the problem they have no idea who made the products or of any warrenty, and you sure as hell ain't gonna tell them the job is covered under warrenty when you can replace it and do it correctly and get paid for it.

mbella
03-18-2006, 10:13 PM
NO DECKS MIKE >>>>>>>>>>>>>> :waving: DO THE MATH

Is there a similar selection of pavers in the motherland?

kootoomootoo
03-18-2006, 10:15 PM
Is there a similar selection of pavers in the motherland?

Don't call it the "lucky country" for nuttin.

mbella
03-18-2006, 10:16 PM
Mike I know where the warrenty from I also know that 99.9% of the defects will not be covered by the manufacturer. They don't warrenty against spalling when salt is used there pavers are made out of crete. They may give you a few for replacement but have a rep come out on a $25k job and there not gonna cover it there gonna blame it on the installation or some other trouble that was out of there control same as any other manufacturer.

And if a new homeoner has the problem they have no idea who made the products or of any warrenty, and you sure as hell ain't gonna tell them the job is covered under warrenty when you can replace it and do it correctly and get paid for it.

Mac, we are talking about spalling and it is covered by the manufacturer.

Regardless, like I said before, concrete ( in any form) is without a doubt an inferrior application in my area.

olderthandirt
03-18-2006, 10:32 PM
Mac, we are talking about spalling and it is covered by the manufacturer.

Regardless, like I said before, concrete ( in any form) is without a doubt an inferrior application in my area.

Mike , I'm not argueing its an inferior product I'm saying that everyone better get use to competing with stamped concrete. Today people are looking for cheap and fast and they don't care about 10 yrs from now because they moved on.

mbella
03-18-2006, 10:38 PM
Mike , I'm not argueing its an inferior product I'm saying that everyone better get use to competing with stamped concrete. Today people are looking for cheap and fast and they don't care about 10 yrs from now because they moved on.

Mac, I hear ya, but I can't honestly say that stamped concrete is competition in the area where we work. I'm only in my third year in business, but there hasn't been one case where I lost a job to stamped crete. It's not that folks aren't aware of stamped concrete, but they seem to be educated on it and realize the advantage of pavers.

olderthandirt
03-18-2006, 10:54 PM
Mac, I hear ya, but I can't honestly say that stamped concrete is competition in the area where we work. I'm only in my third year in business, but there hasn't been one case where I lost a job to stamped crete. It's not that folks aren't aware of stamped concrete, but they seem to be educated on it and realize the advantage of pavers.

Dam your lucky, first time I seen it was 4 yrs ago and was intrigued by it. And they only had a few patterns. Now its seems that almost 1/2 are going to stamped crete and the patterns and colors are endless

mbella
03-18-2006, 10:58 PM
Dam your lucky, first time I seen it was 4 yrs ago and was intrigued by it. And they only had a few patterns. Now its seems that almost 1/2 are going to stamped crete and the patterns and colors are endless

That's the truth Mac. Chris (CG Land) can chime in, but it just isn't real popular here. It's here, but most people seem to realize the advantage of pavers. Also, like I said, there isn't much difference with regard to cost.

kootoomootoo
03-18-2006, 11:06 PM
That's the truth Mac. Chris (CG Land) can chime in, but it just isn't real popular here. It's here, but most people seem to realize the advantage of pavers. Also, like I said, there isn't much difference with regard to cost.

Every friggin house has it here that doesnt have a deck.
In and out in a day or two and $9-$10 a sq ft.

1st homebuyers (25-35) are all over it.

Mike33
03-19-2006, 12:34 AM
The guy has no clue ..he self admitted he doesn't do either. If these guys don't realize that pavers have such a long way to go in terms of the amount of sqft that will be installed in the future then they miss the boat.
Do some research guys...pavers have been around for thousands of years and in those terms are just like a baby here.
I'm all for stamped concrete ...its better than the bland , plain stuff...its still an inferior product.
I don't feel i missed the boat! I've been in business for 12 years seeing other companies having trouble with employees. I choose to stay at my 2 man operation, i build walls and install new yards, hydo-seed, etc. I stay plenty busy with what i do and chose not to take on pavers. Might sound domb, my area is very tough econimic wise. I have 2 other contractors that are friends of mine and battling over what few paver jobs out there. They tell me they only get 20% what they bid people around here goes with concrete. Do i care to jump on that band wagon? Not at this time. I have had only 2 request in the last year for them and i have my 1 body to price them for me thinking i will sub it, they both ended up with concrete. What kind of pavers to you use? 1 guy uses ep henry another hanover, What works for you?
Mike

WildLake
03-19-2006, 08:13 AM
What kind of warranty does any one give from **** growing between the pavers. .

mike

I give 3 years. We use a poly sand that copletely seals the joints. Every job gets it.

Mike33
03-19-2006, 08:24 AM
Like i said in earlier post my reasons for not doing them, i was wondering how it worked with the weed issue. I did a few for a realitive out of town 10 years ago and seen this problem. Of course i will be the first to admit i probably didnt do them correct and did not use the sand your talking about.
mike

WildLake
03-19-2006, 10:52 AM
Like i said in earlier post my reasons for not doing them, i was wondering how it worked with the weed issue. I did a few for a realitive out of town 10 years ago and seen this problem. Of course i will be the first to admit i probably didnt do them correct and did not use the sand your talking about.
mike

Just answering your question. From the description of your area, I wouldn't get into pavers either. My area is more upscale and with plenty of work for us paver guys, and the stamped guys. The more high end jobs will go to pavers and consist of matching walls, steps, etc.

ynvvbr
03-19-2006, 12:49 PM
The nice thing we have seen around here with Stamped crete around here is them proving that pavers are suprerior, in our area. I have seen about a dozen or so of these stamped concrete pavers with cracks in them in less then 2 yrs and on top of that the ones that were"patched" that now there are 2 different colors on it. I guess like mbella said its not a real competition issue here as longas people are educated about it and that it really is just concrete in a different form.
As for builders we have 2 in our area that are beginning to offer paver patios, walks, and driveways as an upgrade on new homes, that way home buyers can afford it. Its alot easier to sell that 50,000 in upgrades when it is spread over 30 yrs or 20 rather then over 3 weeks.
I also saw my first stamped concrete driveway last year. Saw the homeowner in the fall needed an estimate around his pool for pavers. he informed me that he was pissed abt the stamped because it cracked in several places and you can see the patch color difference.

Anyone this is just my 2 cents:)

Mike33
03-19-2006, 06:42 PM
What do you guys consider top of the line pavers? We have an ep henry dealer in our area. I buy my allen blocks from Nitterhuse Chambersburg, Pa.
I was looking in a brocure and they had: Old World village pavers, Tuscany stone pavers.Holland stone. Any one ever hear of these?
Mike

WildLake
03-19-2006, 07:38 PM
Old World village pavers, Tuscany stone pavers.Holland stone. Any one ever hear of these?
Mike
I don't use any of those. EP Henry usually or sometimes Hanover. Both pretty similar.

Grassmechanic
03-20-2006, 08:16 AM
There is a guy near me that does stamped/stenciled concrete. He also installs pavers, but before that he was a concrete man. Anyways, he has the base built like he would for pavers. Then he uses 8'" mesh, two layers, so that the "squares" between the mesh are 4". Then he uses 1/2" re-rod and makes a grid on 4' centers and places the mesh about 2" off the stone base. He told me of a driveway that was done with this method over 6 years ago. I went to look at it and there was not one crack! This is in an area of a lot of freeze and thaw cycles. He says this method is cheaper price wise than pavers. Like any job, if it has been prepped correctly, it will last. BTW, for what it's worth, I've seen quite a few pavers damaged from salt over the years.

Mike33
03-21-2006, 06:16 PM
I don't use any of those. EP Henry usually or sometimes Hanover. Both pretty similar.
How do you rate ep henry products? We have a dealer close here and a cont. body of mine uses them. I use allen block, i have over 130 walls in my area and when you know the product well its hard to switch. We have build anywhere from 3' to 13' already. and havent had a problem and know the little tricks that arise. I think any concrete product will have some glitches here and there , but to make money this product has done well for me. This weekend if you would be around Cumberland we are having Home builders show and i will have 3 booths this year showing my services. Get a chance slip on up. I-70 west to I-68 in Cumberland take 220 south 3-4 miles ahead on left at fairgrounds.

Mike

WildLake
03-23-2006, 05:52 PM
I think we did around 15 - 20,000 sf last year and only problem was, a couple pallets had really rough finish, like they weren't compressed enough. Still used them and customers loved the jobs. Try to make sure we pull from all pallets though, to balance that kind of thing. We do most EP Henry because thats what people request. I might try to get to that show over the weekend. Whats your company?