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Donald R. English
03-17-2006, 07:15 PM
When pulling pcv pipe, how or what is the best way to install a T ?

Dirty Water
03-17-2006, 09:13 PM
I dig up the area for the T, and cut the PVC. Then I slide the pipe apart in the ground by force (or with a rubber mallet).

Glue the tee on one side, and then glue and slide the tee onto the other side. In pulls longer than 20-30 ft it helps to have a partner tap on the end of the pipe with a rubber mallet.

This is the old fashioned way to do it, but because I use SCH 40, its the way I do it.

Dawn makes a product called "Blazing Saddles", that snap onto the pipe and cut a hole, definitly quicker, but doesn't work on SCH 40 unless you drill the hole, so I stick to my method.

bumper
03-17-2006, 11:13 PM
could you also you use a slip fix?..requires a bit bigger hole, but a whole lot easier then trying to cut and glue for a T.

Donald R. English
03-17-2006, 11:30 PM
I've been using slip fixes, but I was wondering what others were using.
slip-fixes are kind of high priced.

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 12:30 AM
I've been using slip fixes, but I was wondering what others were using.
slip-fixes are kind of high priced.

Slipfix for every head?

Your kidding me. :dizzy:

A rubbet mallet moves pulled pipe like butter. Glue one end in its fitting or valve, and then slide it the opposite direction as you install each head until you get to the last head.

If you are connecting two pulled lines with a T then cut and flex the pipe onto the tee for two of the glue joints (You can do this with a 90 too, I've done it up to 3") and tap the last one in with a mallet.

If I have nobody with me and I need to install a long lateral line I dig up each head and cut the pipe into sections, this means your only trying to slide 20 or so feet at a time and you can easily do it by hand.

PurpHaze
03-18-2006, 11:30 AM
This plowing stuff sounds tougher all the time. :laugh:

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 11:32 AM
This plowing stuff sounds tougher all the time. :laugh:

When you factor in 98% less backfilling, it sounds a lot better.

PurpHaze
03-18-2006, 11:41 AM
When you factor in 98% less backfilling, it sounds a lot better.

Yeah... But not having to carry a rubber mallet is one less tool I have to worry about. :laugh:

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 12:01 PM
Yeah... But not having to carry a rubber mallet is one less tool I have to worry about. :laugh:

If your in a pickle your forehead works pretty well too. :hammerhead:

PurpHaze
03-18-2006, 12:06 PM
If your in a pickle your forehead works pretty well too. :hammerhead:

That'd knock me out, I'd be laying on the ground and then Sheshovel would be laughing at me. :dancing:

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 12:19 PM
That'd knock me out, I'd be laying on the ground and then Sheshovel would be laughing at me. :dancing:

We used to have a guy working for us named Mike who perfected a technique called "The Mike Hammer". Instead of having a parter tap the pipe into place, he would apply the glue, line up the pipe and then run balls to wall to the end of the pull and hammer it in. We use IPS 725 so you only have about 10 seconds to get it in place.

Very funny to watch.

PurpHaze
03-18-2006, 12:38 PM
We used to have a guy working for us named Mike who perfected a technique called "The Mike Hammer". Instead of having a parter tap the pipe into place, he would apply the glue, line up the pipe and then run balls to wall to the end of the pull and hammer it in. We use IPS 725 so you only have about 10 seconds to get it in place.

Very funny to watch.

And if he didn't make it in time or was slightly off line at the glue point??? :clapping:

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 12:43 PM
And if he didn't make it in time or was slightly off line at the glue point??? :clapping:

Notice how I highlighted "used"

bumper
03-18-2006, 01:43 PM
The "pulling" of pipe is a new concept to me. I assume it's fairly big commercial or residential jobs incorporating that technique? or the vibraplow?

Us California types are still using trenching shovels or the Ditch Witch for lots averaging 8k or less..we do have lots bigger then that though :drinkup:

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 01:50 PM
The "pulling" of pipe is a new concept to me. I assume it's fairly big commercial or residential jobs incorporating that technique? or the vibraplow?

Us California types are still using trenching shovels or the Ditch Witch for lots averaging 8k or less..we do have lots bigger then that though :drinkup:

Pulling is effiecent regardless of the lot size, as long as your using 2" or smalling pipe.

It is used by a vibraplow, Ditchwitch makes a excellent one:

http://www.bledsoerentals.com/RentalEquipment/Images/Equipment/Ditch%20Witch%20410SX.jpg

There is minimal damage to turf, and virtually no backfilling, you only have to dig up the pipe where you are installing a tee.

bumper
03-18-2006, 02:55 PM
Certainly have had my wack at the ditch witch but not heard anything about the pulling..time to investigate..thanks for the info !!!

bumper
03-18-2006, 02:59 PM
Just asked my wife..she been in the ind. longer then me..she not heard anything yet.....and know that I think about it..do not remember seeing at the recent CLCA trade show...I'll keep digging..so to speak ;)

Dirty Water
03-18-2006, 03:02 PM
Just asked my wife..she been in the ind. longer then me..she not heard anything yet.....and know that I think about it..do not remember seeing at the recent CLCA trade show...I'll keep digging..so to speak ;)

The company I work for has been pulling for over 15 years.

Cable companys use a similar setup to lay wire.

Flatbed
03-19-2006, 09:42 PM
I am just glad we use poly for laterals and pvc for the main. I can image having to glue a t for every head.

PurpHaze
03-20-2006, 08:34 AM
I am just glad we use poly for laterals and pvc for the main. I can image having to glue a t for every head.

You get used to it when it is SOP for everyone in your area doing it that way. :laugh:

Mdirrigation
03-20-2006, 08:58 AM
I have been pulling pipe for 24 years . Big jobs and small jobs . If I had to trench I would be in a different line of work.

bicmudpuppy
03-20-2006, 10:45 AM
I know a lot of guys don't like them, but I am going to mention snap saddles. I have even used 1" outlet snap saddles in a few challenging situations. On large snap saddles, I like a hole saw to punch the plug out. On smaller "head" saddles, a 3/8" drill bit with a piece of swing pipe over it so you can't drill to deep works great. This means I can use a 24" bit with a swing pipe sleeve and lazy Bryan doesn't have to do much more than bend over to drill the saddle. If I am using glue saddles instead of blazzing saddles, I will dig 4 or 5 heads and glue on the saddles, then I go back and drill them all. I then work backward and set the heads. Believe it or not, this is faster than gluing in tees.

Dirty Water
03-20-2006, 01:51 PM
I use snap saddles in some situations...Do you really think they are as strong as glued tee?

bicmudpuppy
03-20-2006, 04:07 PM
I use snap saddles in some situations...Do you really think they are as strong as glued tee?
Actually, I would bet on a glued tee failing before a properly glued saddle. I see sch 40 fittings break most often where the fitting ends. Try to seperate a solvent weld that was primered and glued sometime. You can visually see the joint, but your not going to seperate it. A snap tee works the same way. You have actually re-inforced the pipe where you installed the tee. FWIW, snap tees also make great bandaides :)

Critical Care
03-20-2006, 06:37 PM
Heh heh, the key words are "properly glued". Isn't that a bit like saying that properly welded parts should be stronger than the material itself? But, oh so how often they fail, eh?

And I'm with Hayes on this one. You guys are scaring me away from ever trying to pull pvc... or poly. Kinda sounds like problems in the making from one thing to another.

PurpHaze
03-21-2006, 08:18 AM
I'm sure this whole issue is a matter of "comfort zone" and what it takes in certain areas to get the job done. Tony has been able to adjust to a new environment in CO and I'm sure Jerry is having to make some adjustments in WI because of what is traditional in those areas. I'm sure that any of us could adjust to another installation manner if that's what we were confronted with all the time. :waving:

Critical Care
03-21-2006, 01:11 PM
Well Mr. Hayes I do suppose you’re right, however there is one other factor that surely has spooked me away from getting out of my comfortable trenches to pulling pipe, and it is a big big factor - cost. My garsh, when I finally found the one and only place around here where I could possibly rent a vibratory plow for a day I was shocked to hear how much they wanted. With such a difference in price between that and a trencher somebody could easily hire several boy scouts to do some backfilling and still walk away with a much better profit.

Huh? Just charge more? Yeah, and charge right out of the market.

Ground Master
03-21-2006, 03:03 PM
critical- what is the charge for renting a puller?

here in colorado springs, you can rent a puller or walk behind trencher for 80 to 90 bucks for a half day rental

BSME
03-21-2006, 04:15 PM
by the time you get done with all the extra charges you are getting near $400 for 24 hours for a ditch witch 255sx

Critical Care
03-21-2006, 07:17 PM
Okay, I see that in Colorado Springs you can rent from All Rental the 255sx for $150 a day, but I also see that other places are a lot more. How about $250 for 8 hours.

I was quoted a price for renting a Dingo with plow attachment, but in all honesty I can’t remember what that was - though when I heard it I was in a state of shock. For whatever it’s worth, even that possibility has gone to the wayside since last fall. Oh… and the place was 25 miles away.

Okay guys, if you had to rent equipment, would you drive 50 miles round trip for a $250 a day 255sx, or drive just several miles round trip for a 1330 trencher renting for $115?

bicmudpuppy
03-21-2006, 07:47 PM
Okay, I see that in Colorado Springs you can rent from All Rental the 255sx for $150 a day, but I also see that other places are a lot more. How about $250 for 8 hours.

I was quoted a price for renting a Dingo with plow attachment, but in all honesty I canít remember what that was - though when I heard it I was in a state of shock. For whatever itís worth, even that possibility has gone to the wayside since last fall. OhÖ and the place was 25 miles away.

Okay guys, if you had to rent equipment, would you drive 50 miles round trip for a $250 a day 255sx, or drive just several miles round trip for a 1330 trencher renting for $115?
Ok, consider that your going to do almost ALL of your machine type pipe installation for any small to medium size residential in about 3 hours. I have installed 3-4K of pipe in less than 4 hours. Your going to be trenching how long for 3K feet of ditch? and then have to cover it back up again! I don't think you can trench a 12 zone system in one day, but I know you can pull a twelve zone system in 4 hours. So, what is that 50 miles and an extra hour really costing you? Now add in that you didn't rip the crap out of Ms. X beautiful established yard too, and Yes I would drive fifty miles, waste an hour and spend and extra $200, but in reality, I'm only going to spend and extra fifty or so because I am only going to have the machine for one day.

Critical Care
03-21-2006, 09:11 PM
How far, how fast, and how much you can trench or pull pipe is obviously dependent up a number of factors. Could I trench a 12 zone system in a day? Probably, because if I can trench a zone and a half within an hour, then I’m on schedule for 12 zones per day. However, throw in some curve balls such as rocks, roots, and other crappola then all bets are off. I likewise assume that these same curve balls thrown at someone on a plow is going to make them slow down as well.

If the plow is going to shine because of not having to backfill, then the larger the job the more advantageous it would be. But for small or medium residential installs where backfilling isn’t that big of an issue I’m still in doubt. And, what price value above and beyond trenching is it to a client to have his established lawn plowed?

Dirty Water
03-21-2006, 09:23 PM
Plowing Advantage:


Speed
Very little Turf damage
No wasted time cleaning out the trenched ditch
No wasted time raking the grass around the trench clean again
No backfilling
No trench settling
Very little hand digging
Did I mention Speed?


We own two plows, and a dedicated trencher. Our larger plow (410sx) has a trencher attachement on its other end. If you can afford to buy a machine, buy a plow. If you are just renting, rent what is economical to you.

We have done jobs were a customer wanted to install two yard hydrants that were roughly 500 ft apart (1000' of trenching). With the help of a assistant we installed the entire thing from start to finish in under a hour. Three pulls were done.

I had the assistant glue up pipe while I made the tap and assembled the hydrants, we pulled the pipe in, glued in the hydrants and I packed up while my help backfilled 4 small holes.

We could do the the job in about 3 hours with our riding trencher, using the backfill blade to clean up, but that would involve huge amounts of turf damage, if we handbackfilled, it would be all day affair, and turf damage would be limited to just the trenchline. A plow, 1 hour.

Pays for itself quick.

MOlawnman
03-24-2006, 08:56 PM
Pulling pipe, whether it is pvc or poly is the only way to go. I could not imagine reverting back to trenching.

You know that when you trench, there will always be some settlement of soil, no matter how good you are at backfilling.

I agree with the others in that speed is also important. With the plow, we can install small residentials in a single day. Pulled a little over 900' of 1" poly in under 90 minutes, and that was not a continuous pull, just last week.

The best thing to come around for the irrigation industry was the vibratory plow.

drmiller100
03-25-2006, 01:28 PM
last year we weren't very efficient, but I was still organized enough to pull 3 or 4 small residentials at once.
We would dig the main line hole, and mark every sprinkler head, and take guesses at lateral T's for a half day at each job.

Repeat for 3 more jobs.

Then, rent pipe puller, and pull all 4 jobs in a morning with one helper. Return puller and hook up all the sprinklers. Spend rest of week finishing out all the jobs.
We've got a skid steer, and for sure we use a trencher in rocky stuff, but we have a tough time getting the trench lines to be even and flat in a year.

I'm sure open ot ideas how to make our trenches come out better.

also, just realized, we used poly, not pvc. i'd think pvc would be a lot tougher.

bumper
03-26-2006, 09:41 AM
Still curious about the pipe pulling gig....I checked with a local LC/college instructor in the biz for nearly 30 years....he says he has seen video of it..never seen it done. He figures its not a West Coast residential gig and more of Midwest/East coast gig because we do not have issues with freezing.

I also noticed that many pull poly...another difference is we do not use poly for laterals, we use only Sch. 40 or class 200. Poly we refer to as funny pipe and use it sometimes instead of single or double swing joints off the T. Mystery solved

PurpHaze
03-26-2006, 10:05 AM
Still curious about the pipe pulling gig....I checked with a local LC/college instructor in the biz for nearly 30 years....he says he has seen video of it..never seen it done. He figures its not a West Coast residential gig and more of Midwest/East coast gig because we do not have issues with freezing.

I also noticed that many pull poly...another difference is we do not use poly for laterals, we use only Sch. 40 or class 200. Poly we refer to as funny pipe and use it sometimes instead of single or double swing joints off the T. Mystery solved

Same here Bumper. I've posted before about the city's experiment with pulling poly about 12 years ago. It was utter disaster and convinced our school district to not investigate plowing possibilities further. :dancing:

Flatbed
03-26-2006, 05:23 PM
Okay, I see that in Colorado Springs you can rent from All Rental the 255sx for $150 a day, but I also see that other places are a lot more. How about $250 for 8 hours.

I was quoted a price for renting a Dingo with plow attachment, but in all honesty I canít remember what that was - though when I heard it I was in a state of shock. For whatever itís worth, even that possibility has gone to the wayside since last fall. OhÖ and the place was 25 miles away.

Okay guys, if you had to rent equipment, would you drive 50 miles round trip for a $250 a day 255sx, or drive just several miles round trip for a 1330 trencher renting for $115?

I can see renting a machine for a day to try it out, after that look in to purchasing one. The payment on my machine is $328.00 a month. I can't believe some one that could use a plow or a trencher everyday would rent one. If I had to rent a machine I would go broke the first month!