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View Full Version : Are There Any Organic Gurus Worth....


Norm Al
03-18-2006, 11:30 AM
......LISTENING TO? or are they just hired guns by the CGM industry?

Az Gardener
03-18-2006, 11:54 AM
I don't consider my self a guru, some of the people who do consider themselves guru's I question. I have seen the benefits if organic products but I don't think there is a blanket statement That all"organics are the best" I judge the effectiveness from a practicality standpoint. My biggest gripe is with pesticides as opposed to herbicides. I think once you start spraying for bugs you begin a downward spiral because most are not selective killers so you kill all your beneficial/predator insects then you just compound problems. I don't even know what the CGM is. I have been using biological products through fertilizer injectors for over 10 years and have seen remarkable results. I still use small amounts of synthetics to enhance the effects of the biological products.

There was a guy traveling around the country doing a class called the Natures Lyceum if you can catch that class it is a good foundation but I caution you there are some conspiracy theories tossed about that most rational people will have to overlook IMHO. Like anything else listen, try it for yourself and see what works for you and what does not.

sheshovel
03-18-2006, 01:49 PM
Try reading some Rodale,"Organic Plant Protection" is a classic

nocutting
03-18-2006, 06:20 PM
Try reading some Rodale,"Organic Plant Protection" is a classic
"Sheshovel, hits the nail on the head"..........not only do they write books but do there oun research to back it up. "An Honor To Have You At The Organic Round-Table"..........:usflag:

nocutting
03-18-2006, 06:25 PM
I don't consider my self a guru, some of the people who do consider themselves guru's I question. I have seen the benefits if organic products but I don't think there is a blanket statement That all"organics are the best" I judge the effectiveness from a practicality standpoint. My biggest gripe is with pesticides as opposed to herbicides. I think once you start spraying for bugs you begin a downward spiral because most are not selective killers so you kill all your beneficial/predator insects then you just compound problems. I don't even know what the CGM is. I have been using biological products through fertilizer injectors for over 10 years and have seen remarkable results. I still use small amounts of synthetics to enhance the effects of the biological products.

There was a guy traveling around the country doing a class called the Natures Lyceum if you can catch that class it is a good foundation but I caution you there are some conspiracy theories tossed about that most rational people will have to overlook IMHO. Like anything else listen, try it for yourself and see what works for you and what does not...........................Jeff Franks, surely has his own therory.....ands not just another pretty face.......at least hes just selling an education, generally doesnt push a product [ at least not right now]...........:dancing:

ed2hess
03-18-2006, 09:58 PM
I don't consider my self a guru, some of the people who do consider themselves guru's I question. I have seen the benefits if organic products but I don't think there is a blanket statement That all"organics are the best" I judge the effectiveness from a practicality standpoint. My biggest gripe is with pesticides as opposed to herbicides. I think once you start spraying for bugs you begin a downward spiral because most are not selective killers so you kill all your beneficial/predator insects then you just compound problems. I don't even know what the CGM is. I have been using biological products through fertilizer injectors for over 10 years and have seen remarkable results. I still use small amounts of synthetics to enhance the effects of the biological products.

There was a guy traveling around the country doing a class called the Natures Lyceum if you can catch that class it is a good foundation but I caution you there are some conspiracy theories tossed about that most rational people will have to overlook IMHO. Like anything else listen, try it for yourself and see what works for you and what does not.

Last year I took some compost from a pile that we made at our commericial site and used it for pancies. I was shocked at how well those plants did all year. I compared three beds with compost to 20 where I used various chemical fertilize and hands down the compost test plots did better. And worms have returned to those beds. Do you think snapshot will hurt worms and microbes?

muddstopper
03-18-2006, 10:12 PM
Nature tended the forest for centuries before fertilizer was developed. All the predator insects and diseases where around the entire time. It wasn't until the soil got out of balance that the insects and diseases got out of balance also. Before man started destroying the forest and grass lands, soil had a recyclable source of nutrients. The plants and animals that lived there. Now we plow the grass lands under and destroy the micro environment. We remove timber from the forest and with the timber go the nutrients. 90% of the US woodlands are growing on soils that have less than 30% of the available nutrients that where once there. Where did the nutrients go, they where removed when the trees where cut for lumber and paper. the logging caused erosion and nutrients washed downstream into the rivers and oceans. Going totally organic now is not a real option. Why, because the compost and manures we use in our organic programs lack the nutrients needed to make the soil fertile again. You cant get something from nothing. if the plants are lacking certain nutrients, the compost will lack those same nutrient. If cows are not getting all the nutrients from the grass they eat, the manures from the cows wont contain the nutrients either. If you use CGM that was grown on nutrient deficient soil, the CGM will be deficient in those same nutrients. Adding microbes in the form of compost teas doesn't really solve anything, why, the microbes have to eat too. If the soil doesn't contain soluble nutrients for the microbes, they will soon die, those that don't die are the one that are feeding on the available nutrients that are present. if the nutrients that are present don't happen to be the ones the plants need, you end up with diseased plants.

My personal opinion on the organic industry is the same as it is for the fertilizer industry. They all have a product to sell, there are benefits to both types of products, but if you just listen to one side of the equation, you will lose no matter which side you choose to believe.

Az Gardener
03-18-2006, 10:26 PM
Compost is great stuff such a simple product helps with so many problems. As I understand most pre-emergants they form an acidic layer in the soil that burns off the cotyledon as the new seeds sprout. I guess it could harm some microbes as it would change their environment how many, how much I don't know. I don't think it would have much effect on worms, much as it has no effect on established weeds. I want to re state I am just applying some common sense and hand down information I have learned from chemical reps. (not the best source) and seminars at trade shows. One thing I have learned first hand is you can do things once or twice with no apparent effect but the cumulative effect is much greater over time. I just saw a bit on the Rodale institute on HGTV last week or two very good info.

Yes it was Jeff that did the Nature Lyceum, I just wish he was a but more conservative. When you start talking about waves emitted from the TV screen causing damage to us you begin to loose a few people. It gets even worse when he gives you a Tupperware container of black prilles of something that will absorb the waves and protect you. While there may be a thread of truth to it it, who am I to judge, it really undermines his credibility. I believe he could leave those parts out, improve his credibility, and do more to promote organics.

Norm Al
03-19-2006, 01:35 PM
the problem in the landscape world is that as long as you use natural plants for your area you will be ok with natural products! but most homeowners are landscaping with imported plants that dont occur naturally to their area,,,,,as a result an imbalance in nature results and insects blow up and differant fert is needed than what occurs naturally for that area!

florida thinks its hawaii! texas thinks its florida! and of course california thinks it owns the whole world :)

thats why you hear the gurus pushing natural landscapes that occur naturally for a given area! pretty simple actually! most of the gurus i have listened to really push corn gluten meal as the saviour of everything,,,,bugs, fert, weeds and so on!

Az Gardener
03-19-2006, 02:47 PM
Yes Al you are absolutely correct, but have you ever seen children playing on sharp rocks cacti and brittle bush ? Phoenix would be empty, and my home worthless, and we don't want that now do we. On a serious note you have hit the nail on the head but I don't think we are likely to put the genie back in the bottle.

That corn gluten must be a regional thing, I have not seen any for sale here and we don't grow much corn either. I think organics is like stair steps or evolution if you will. you start off with the most basic product and then keep improving on or adding to it probably started with corn gluten, then seaweed extract, and on compost tea, humates and on microbes, enzymes.

I don't know if you are anywhere near the Firestone Estate, they have recently installed a small injector system and are using bridge products. Call them up or stop by and see what kind of results they are getting there. If you do please let me know. Thanks

I am unsure what you are looking for. I have tried to type what I know but It takes me for ever. and many of the words I cant spell, seriously. If you want me to share my limited knowledge Pm me and lets set up a phone conversation. I keep an open mind and am married to no products, just looking to keep learning and getting better.