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tnmtn
03-19-2006, 04:02 PM
i am looking at a job to install a driveway on the side of a pretty steep hill. there will be a couple switchbacks involved going from the road down to the parking area. i was thinking about using a track loader with a blade attachment to cut in the rough grade. i was wondering what is the max slope that is safe to side slope a track loader? any info would be appreciated.
thanks,
metin

vntgrcr
03-19-2006, 05:45 PM
Not sure what kind of soil you have but it sounds as though you need a real dozer, maybe a D3 or 4. The track machines are great but I can't see one actually cutting in a road from scratch. It might work, but your going to have to take very small bites and your time could be cut in half if not more with a dozer.

thepawnshop
03-19-2006, 07:34 PM
I think 30 degrees is about the standard and max rating for side slope work.

tnmtn
03-19-2006, 08:27 PM
i had thought about a dozer. the ground is mostly loose soil, very soft. i was concerned that a dozer might have a tendancy to slide with the extra weight. also access to the area where it is at is pretty tough. i will have to park the trailer about a mile from where the work is. very curvy gravel forest roads. a house is not going to be built there. the land is used for a few guys to go hunting. they just would like to be able to pull their trucks off the road to where they will be out of sight. i appreciate the replies.
metin

Gravel Rat
03-19-2006, 09:41 PM
Your better off with a excavator mini or fullsize don't bother fooling around with a bulldozer or trackloader your way too limited. A 160 sized excavator could cut a decent road in a day even a 161 Kubota size machine can cut a road in easy.

We have some steep driveways here and I mean steep the one next to my place is so steep when they were building it they needed to lower the dump trucks down with a dozer. Another driveway I worked on was so steep the excavator wouldn't sit without sliding.

When your cutting into a bank or a hillside that is soft you need to cut in a good distance it should be minimum 10' wide it should be 14' wide. You will need to make sure the edge doesn't sluff off. You will need to get on the upperside of the slope and pull the material back and bench it.

Without pictures to see what your dealing with is hard to give you any ideas but like I said we have some of the worst driveways you can imagine here. Even concrete'ed tires will spin because its too slippery one guy I know has a driveway that is concrete is so steep he needs 4wheeldrive to climb it.

tnmtn
03-19-2006, 10:32 PM
gravel rat,
the excavator with a grading blade was my other option. i am leaning more that way the more i think about it. just don't have a lot of experiance with track loaders and wanted to see if that might be an option. i'll probably stick to the tried and true method. also, if you are still missing your old idi ford mine is for sale. runs like a top.
take care,
metin

Gravel Rat
03-19-2006, 10:37 PM
The PSD runs good just aslong it doesn't break parts are a little pricey. I'am used to the bigger power now :laugh:

JDSKIDSTEER
03-20-2006, 12:27 PM
i am looking at a job to install a driveway on the side of a pretty steep hill. there will be a couple switchbacks involved going from the road down to the parking area. i was thinking about using a track loader with a blade attachment to cut in the rough grade. i was wondering what is the max slope that is safe to side slope a track loader? any info would be appreciated.
thanks,
metin

Go to www.skidsteer.com

John Deere has an excellent video on that site comparing all track loaders on side slopes. It may help you decide if a track unit will work for you.

Dirty Water
03-20-2006, 02:07 PM
Go to www.skidsteer.com

John Deere has an excellent video on that site comparing all track loaders on side slopes. It may help you decide if a track unit will work for you.

I don't believe that video for a minute. I know that people who are not used to pilot controls have a harder time going in a straight line, but how do we know the operator wasn't monkeying around a little to make the deer look better.

:nono:

JDSKIDSTEER
03-20-2006, 03:37 PM
Have you tried them both on same conditions on the same job site? The biggest problem I have seen is the weight distribution of the machine. Rear end heavy machines slide and that is a fact. If you have not done it you don't need to make statements like that.

olderthandirt
03-20-2006, 03:58 PM
that video does not show the machines working hard. put a large load or a tree in front of any tracked skid and its not nearly as effeciant as a dozer

Digdeep
03-20-2006, 06:43 PM
I don't want to start a "flame war" over machine preference (we've beat that horse in this forum), but there are a couple of things that come to mind:
1. Videos can be very biased and subjective
2. Having sold Bobcat against JD before and knowing that skid steers have a rear weighted disposition, how can any track loader that is adapted directly from a skid steer (undercarriage just bolted on) have a true track-loader weight distribution? Example- If the bobcat skid steer has a distribution of 30-70% and I put it on tracks- isn't the chassis weight distribution still almost 30-70? I know JD is about 40-60% so isn't most of the weight on their CTLs still more toward the rear?

I've haven't seen too many JD CTLs up here in WI yet, but with everyone getting into the game I'm sure they'll sell some. The Deere dealer has a pretty good rep so that will help. Since you sell them, what is the warranty on their tracks both new and replacement? I know they're using the Bridgestone's like Bobcat does. Good luck selling and thanks for the info.

thepawnshop
03-20-2006, 06:50 PM
This year, I traded my 320 rubber tire JD skidsteer for a JD322 CTL and the difference was like night and day....I went on hills I never would have navigated with my rubber tire machine. I don't think this was a simple "bolting of undercarriage" onto a skidsteer frame. I don't mean to answer for the JD dealer, just share my own "real world" experience. I have been MUCH more productive with the track machine than I was with teh rubber tire machine.

JDSKIDSTEER
03-20-2006, 07:26 PM
I don't want to start a "flame war" over machine preference (we've beat that horse in this forum), but there are a couple of things that come to mind:
1. Videos can be very biased and subjective
2. Having sold Bobcat against JD before and knowing that skid steers have a rear weighted disposition, how can any track loader that is adapted directly from a skid steer (undercarriage just bolted on) have a true track-loader weight distribution? Example- If the bobcat skid steer has a distribution of 30-70% and I put it on tracks- isn't the chassis weight distribution still almost 30-70? I know JD is about 40-60% so isn't most of the weight on their CTLs still more toward the rear?

I've haven't seen too many JD CTLs up here in WI yet, but with everyone getting into the game I'm sure they'll sell some. The Deere dealer has a pretty good rep so that will help. Since you sell them, what is the warranty on their tracks both new and replacement? I know they're using the Bridgestone's like Bobcat does. Good luck selling and thanks for the info.
The Deere track system is not a bolt on unit and has a true planetary drive system and the booms and frames are reinforced to take the added stress. I pre sell with the video and close with the on site demo. I prefer to have my competitions machine on site. As for warranty on tracks I have not had to address this issue. I do tell my customer that they are rubber and if not used properly will as all of my competitors wear prematurely.

tnmtn
03-20-2006, 08:47 PM
if i went the track loader-dozer blade route it was just to get things leveled out enough to get my backhoe in there. the slope is at the edge of comfort for the tlb. the trees that were in the way were not real big and won't be a problem for the tlb. it isn't going to be heavy dozer work. may end up using the backhoe bucket to level off the bad spots and do the whole thing with the tlb. it pushes suprising well with a blade.
thanks,
metin

UNISCAPER
03-20-2006, 10:00 PM
We have 257B Caterpillars and run a Bradco 6-1 blade. They are rated for 3-1 side slopes however, we regularly run 2-1's, you can see on the 4th page of our website.

How about bringing a JD out to play up on Mt Helix or Mt Laguna someday? Send your best operator I would love to see for myself what those machines have with someone who was useed to running them. If they are like every other rigid frame machine we have tried, they will walk down the slope while they push. On the plus side, a rigid frame will keep the blade more even, but that's only assuming they would stick to the slope.

You're right about a rear heavy machine in certain respects. That's why you would typically counter weight the blade if the front/back ratio is to far apart. Once you do that, any machine will track better on the side slope application. The way you prove this is take your pallet forks, load a skid full of Keystone, strap it to the gaurd, then drive sideways along any slope. Then try it with the forks empty. You'll be lucky if you don't run a 45° angle to the toe as soon as you engage the drives.

jray3369
03-20-2006, 10:15 PM
Hey just dont get stuck! This is what i did all day.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/548769190/2122053100072940992mhSGVF

Dirty Water
03-20-2006, 10:48 PM
Hey just dont get stuck! This is what i did all day.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/548769190/2122053100072940992mhSGVF


Been there...I've absolutely buried one of our trenchers.

Gravel Rat
03-20-2006, 11:22 PM
You guys must have some of the softest ground I have ever seen we rarely have that problem on the West Coast too much hard rock under the 12 inches of soil on top.

jray3369
03-21-2006, 01:46 AM
we had to bring in the mini and dig all around it and the mini almost got stuck in the slop. Took 4 1/2hrs

Over all the machine is a strong runner, just not that deep! We got it stuck twice yesterday not so bad though. You could kind of see the track:laugh:

Digdeep
03-21-2006, 07:27 AM
JDSKIDSTEER,

IMHO, if your CTL 322 and 332 are based of off the frame of the skid steer (regardless of beefed up arms), it is a bolt on system...unless the chassis and the rest of the machine were designed from the beginning to be a tracked loader. As for track warranty, it's great that you haven't had any problems yet, but as an end user that could be potentially looking at a JD CTL what would the warranty be on tracks, new and replacement? Thanks.

Tigerotor77W
03-21-2006, 11:41 AM
Example- If the bobcat skid steer has a distribution of 30-70% and I put it on tracks- isn't the chassis weight distribution still almost 30-70? I know JD is about 40-60% so isn't most of the weight on their CTLs still more toward the rear?

Digdeep, it depends on how the weight in the UC is situated. If the UC is heavily balanced toward the front and counts for a large portion of the total machine weight, you might influence the overall weight distribution toward the front.

The main thing an UC does isn't so much to move the CoG forward; it's to lower it closer to the ground (which still helps when climbing hils).

Hey just dont get stuck! This is what i did all day.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/548769190/2122053100072940992mhSGVF

Ouch! That looks painful... poor kitty. :(

JDSKIDSTEER
03-21-2006, 08:36 PM
JDSKIDSTEER,

IMHO, if your CTL 322 and 332 are based of off the frame of the skid steer (regardless of beefed up arms), it is a bolt on system...unless the chassis and the rest of the machine were designed from the beginning to be a tracked loader. As for track warranty, it's great that you haven't had any problems yet, but as an end user that could be potentially looking at a JD CTL what would the warranty be on tracks, new and replacement? Thanks.

As for frame our frame and booms were already strongest on market as for modifying frame if you look machine over and put beside rubber tire unit and lift canopy you will see it is not same. Drive motors and planetary is completely different and it is not a bolt on undercarriage. As for warranty Deere's basic warranty is 1 year 2000 hrs. for failure due to workmanship. Not normal wear. You can purchase extended warranty up to 5 years 5000 hrs. Of course premature wear and failure of tracks depends mostly on proper maintenance and operating conditions. I preach to my customers about checking track adjustment every 50 hours and cleaning undercarriage at end of day and how spinning tracks can wear prematurly, but few take my advise. But my experience with Deere warranty is that they always do what is right. Of course like anything it depends on your salesman and dealership going to bat for you when you need them as with any brand. As for replacement 1 year or if machine is under extended warranty it would be covered.

thepawnshop
03-21-2006, 08:44 PM
Hey JD...

How much do these warranties run? Is it standard or does it differ from region to to region?

JDSKIDSTEER
03-21-2006, 08:53 PM
Hey JD...

How much do these warranties run? Is it standard or does it differ from region to to region?
Depends on how many years and hours you want to purchase ..example on your CT322
2 years 2000 hrs is $1450.00...3 year 2000 hrs is $1930.00

and up to 5 year 5000 hours 6330.00........give an idea of how many hours and years you would want and i will price,,,,,,Full coverage has 200.00 deduct. Power train and hyd. no deduct. You can purchase and extend year to year as long as machine is still under warranty.

thepawnshop
03-21-2006, 09:17 PM
So as long as it is under the "new" one year or 2000 hour warranty, you can buy an extended warranty? The reason I ask is with say...automobiles...you MUST buy the extended warranty at the time of purchase.

Back to the example of my CT322...let's say that after six months I realize that the machine is having problems...could I:

1. purchase the warranty
2. transfer the warranty when resold/traded (to help with resale)?

I know I could ask my sales guy, but this could be good information for all onboard here.

Thanks!

JDSKIDSTEER
03-21-2006, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=thepawnshop]So as long as it is under the "new" one year or 2000 hour warranty, you can buy an extended warranty? The reason I ask is with say...automobiles...you MUST buy the extended warranty at the time of purchase.

Back to the example of my CT322...let's say that after six months I realize that the machine is having problems...could I:

1. purchase the warranty
2. transfer the warranty when resold/traded (to help with resale)?

I know I could ask my sales guy, but this could be good information for all onboard here.

Thanks![/QUOTE

Yes to both. And yes it will help resale. I had a customer trade in 320 for
CT322 and I am throwing in extra year with unit.

ksss
03-22-2006, 01:40 AM
I must take issue with the strongest frames and loader arms on the market comment. Both comments are subjective at best. As far as the loader arms go, your point of lift is very close to the rear hinge pin same as NH and the larger Gehl units. CASE, CAT and Bobcat move the lift cylinder hinge point closer to the front of the machine. This reduces the stress carried by the loader arms. To say yours are the heaviest negates the fact that due to the engineering of the lift mechanism it requires an overly large loader arm. This reduces visiblity and at the end of the day I doubt that the NET strength of your loader arms are any more than any manufacturer. FRAME STRENGTH I would be curious how JD tested the frames to determine strength and then provided that information to the sales guy to use in the field. I mean it sounds good but without some type of documentation I don't believe it. Is your frame even one piece? or bolted together like NH. Again because the design criteria is different for each manufacturer I don't see how Deere can claim the strongest frame in the industry. If all designs were the same, maybe, but of course they are not.:waving:

JDSKIDSTEER
03-22-2006, 05:45 AM
I must take issue with the strongest frames and loader arms on the market comment. Both comments are subjective at best. As far as the loader arms go, your point of lift is very close to the rear hinge pin same as NH and the larger Gehl units. CASE, CAT and Bobcat move the lift cylinder hinge point closer to the front of the machine. This reduces the stress carried by the loader arms. To say yours are the heaviest negates the fact that due to the engineering of the lift mechanism it requires an overly large loader arm. This reduces visiblity and at the end of the day I doubt that the NET strength of your loader arms are any more than any manufacturer. FRAME STRENGTH I would be curious how JD tested the frames to determine strength and then provided that information to the sales guy to use in the field. I mean it sounds good but without some type of documentation I don't believe it. Is your frame even one piece? or bolted together like NH. Again because the design criteria is different for each manufacturer I don't see how Deere can claim the strongest frame in the industry. If all designs were the same, maybe, but of course they are not.:waving:
The only problem with specs and documentation is that on paper they look good. In the dirt tells the story. I have sold over 300 units and can honestly say I never had a boom or a frame issue. I did had a customer who had a car hit his left rear wheel on his 260 at a high rate if speed. Did not hurt axcel but warped the frame where the axcel bolted, but he is running like it is with no problem. Im not sure what kind of shape the car is in. To be honest with you I personaly have not heard of anyone having a frame problem in our area. Heard of a few boom breakages on a couple of brands.

Caribbean Breeze
03-22-2006, 06:41 AM
The only problem with specs and documentation is that on paper they look good. In the dirt tells the story. I have sold over 300 units and can honestly say I never had a boom or a frame issue. I did had a customer who had a car hit his left rear wheel on his 260 at a high rate if speed. Did not hurt axcel but warped the frame where the axcel bolted, but he is running like it is with no problem. Im not sure what kind of shape the car is in. To be honest with you I personaly have not heard of anyone having a frame problem in our area. Heard of a few boom breakages on a couple of brands.

In my opinion, John Deere and New Holland booms become very sloppy after 1,500 hrs or so.... I believe that Case has booms that are very strong, I won't comment on Cat because they are very new to the market. One of the main reasons I will not buy a John Deere SSL is because of the booms of the units. I have been exposed to many of their 200 Series that have boom sway...Bobcat had loader arms that would crack but since changed the design. At the end of the day, I believe that a Radial Arm is stronger and more suited for excavation than Vertical Lift..

Caribbean Breeze

Squizzy246B
03-22-2006, 08:21 AM
I must take issue with the strongest frames and loader arms on the market comment. Both comments are subjective at best.

Again because the design criteria is different for each manufacturer I don't see how Deere can claim the strongest frame in the industry. If all designs were the same, maybe, but of course they are not.:waving:

Hardly a truer word spoken.

ksss
03-22-2006, 01:02 PM
JDskidsteer,

So are you basing your comment on having the strongest boom and frame in the industry on the 300 machines in your area not having a problem? Typically when someone makes a comment like you made, hopefully it is based on more than your personal experiences. We have a large tree farm operation down the road. They run 95XTs and 465s weighted down to over 12K running very large tree spades never broke a loader arm or frame does that make them the strongest on the market no it doesn't, certainly not by default of not having a reported problem, which seems to be the case with your statement. Perhaps rephrasing your comment by saying "I believe we have the strongest boom and frame" would help. By stating it as fact you will most likely be asked to prove your statement which I think you found is impossible because no OEM will or has take the time or money to mechanically prove they have the strongest boom or frame. All that matters is that in their application (machine)there is no problems with the frame or boom. Again I am not trying to beat you up and I realize that your new here and I certainly want to extend the welcome mat. I just want to set the record straight between fact and opinion.

UNISCAPER
03-22-2006, 01:38 PM
Every New Holland or Deere machine I have seen with over 1000 hours shows significant wear on all the hinge points. Also, for side sloping, excavation, and general grading, those two machines are the wrong tool for the job.

They are cumbersome, can't keep an accurate cut, usually due to the hinge points wearing prematurely, as well as the design.
Now if your operation lifts and carries more than it digs or grades, they are the perfect machine for the job. I realize Deere has redesigned the skid and track loaders, and only time will tell how well they endure.

AS said before, this new line is a new design, and only time will tell. I would open mindedly welcome a test in the mountains we work on.

JDSKIDSTEER
03-22-2006, 01:53 PM
JDskidsteer,

So are you basing your comment on having the strongest boom and frame in the industry on the 300 machines in your area not having a problem? Typically when someone makes a comment like you made, hopefully it is based on more than your personal experiences. We have a large tree farm operation down the road. They run 95XTs and 465s weighted down to over 12K running very large tree spades never broke a loader arm or frame does that make them the strongest on the market no it doesn't, certainly not by default of not having a reported problem, which seems to be the case with your statement. Perhaps rephrasing your comment by saying "I believe we have the strongest boom and frame" would help. By stating it as fact you will most likely be asked to prove your statement which I think you found is impossible because no OEM will or has take the time or money to mechanically prove they have the strongest boom or frame. All that matters is that in their application (machine)there is no problems with the frame or boom. Again I am not trying to beat you up and I realize that your new here and I certainly want to extend the welcome mat. I just want to set the record straight between fact and opinion.

Let me set the record straight. I was told but have no supporting evidence. So because of my experiences and judging by the factory tours I have taken that we have as strong or stronger frame or boom as anyone in the industry based on my experience here. What I am learning on this site is that the different machines work better in some different applications and that machines in one area may be more popular due to product support. When ever I convert a customer in my area it is because someone dropped the ball. In our area You see no Cat or Deere's traded in on other brands. I cannot say the same for other brands in our area. Thanks for correction. I have learned a lot on this site in a short time that helps me when making comparisons.
:)

Land&LawnDev.
03-24-2006, 10:38 PM
Ct 332 excellent for steep slopes, I wouldn't use a blade just a multi-purpose bucket. I know from experience that this machine will stick on some pretty sleep slopes. You could cut into the hill with the corner of the bucket and roll the material accross to the fill side; or back up the hill and cut everthing that the machine will take toward the bottom, use gravity to your advantage, no matter what equip your using. Loose material is much easier to carry up hill.