PDA

View Full Version : How does Corn Gluten Mean look when pelletized


HK45Mark23
03-20-2006, 08:43 PM
What should corn gluten pellets look like? Should it smell like sweet feed? To pelletize corn gluten meal do they use molasses as a binder? I found corn gluten meal pellets at a coop for 6$ per 100 lbs. and purchased 400 lbs today. My concern is that it smells like sweet feed and is dark brown. I just want to know if that is how the product is supposed to look, or should I call the coop tomorrow and question them as to what they sold me.

HK45Mark23
03-20-2006, 11:41 PM
Here is a picture, it is fuzzy but at least you can see the color and texture.

Yeah I misspelled the word Meal in the thread title, I meant Corn Gluten Meal.

NattyLawn
03-21-2006, 07:49 AM
I haven't used feed grade CGM, but the product I used is bright yellow and doesn't smell sweet, at least to me. The color might have something to do with the molasses though.

nocutting
03-21-2006, 08:45 AM
Here is a picture, it is fuzzy but at least you can see the color and texture.

Yeah I misspelled the word Meal in the thread title, I meant Corn Gluten Meal.
Looks like CG feed to me, and the price seems about right, only has half the protien of real CGM.......but its not like you can substitute 1 for the other in Lawn Care.........just some words of wisdom:nono:

nocutting
03-21-2006, 08:49 AM
I haven't used feed grade CGM, but the product I used is bright yellow and doesn't smell sweet, at least to me. The color might have something to do with the molasses though.
Hello Matt, Feed Grade looks just as you discribed, bright yellow [ just like chemical pre's, sort of odd dont you think]........best ay to ch is looking at the protien % on the side of the bag

NattyLawn
03-21-2006, 10:18 AM
I think I mis-read that...He was asking IF they use molasses to bind...

Saxon...I had more than one LCO that saw me covered in yellow ask why we still use Pre-em and should switch to Dimension or Barricade...Then when you tell them its CGM they abort the conversation real fast.

Yard
03-21-2006, 02:44 PM
Looks like CG feed to me, and the price seems about right, only has half the protien of real CGM.......but its not like you can substitute 1 for the other in Lawn Care.........just some words of wisdom:nono:
Does CG feed still have the same prem properties of real CGM, or does it work half as well because of the protein content? How about cracked corn? Man, the price difference is sure unbelievable.
What is the brown color from? The turf type CG I've used was yellow, it wasn't powdery like corn meal but it didn't look pelletized like that. That picture reminds me of pelletized compost.
Let us know how it works for you.

NattyLawn
03-21-2006, 03:32 PM
Yard,

There have been a lot of threads about feed grade CGM working for some LCO's. This was posted by timturf in another thread, but the link doesn't seem to work anymore:

<<Originally posted by timturf>>

Found this tonite, while looking for something else

research at Virginia Tech, reported 01/29/02

Commercially available corn gluten meal products control crabgrass preemergence. However, duration of control is not as long as with commercial herbicides. Prolonged weed control will likely require multiple corn gluten meal applications. However, multiple corn gluten applications in cool-season lawns will surpass recommended nitrogen rates for cool-season turf. Although cheaper, feed-grade corn gluten does not adequately control crabgrass.

http://www.turfweeds.net/pub.php?do=view&id=18

HK45Mark23
03-21-2006, 06:39 PM
Well I figure even if it does not work as good as a pre-emergent, that it will at least prevent the first crop of dandelions.

I also figure that some of the fertilizer properties will take affect as well as the promotion of ant-pathogenic fungus.

Also I understand that molasses feeds the microbial herd and promotes nitrogen production.

So at worst I won’t get the pre-emergent properties I desired. But at least I will have (1) promoted the microbial herds nitrogen production, (2) promoted a good fungus that will protect the grass from pathogens and (3) fertilized the lawn.

I did all of that on 20,000 sq ft of turf for $25.00 and it smells so good.

Also I found a different coop that has 50 lb bags of actual corn gluten meal for $13.00. They will have it in stock tomorrow and are willing to order it earlier next year.

I am proud to say that I have a bottle of Alaska Fish Emulsion and a new sprayer. I will be using that on my personal lawn in a month or two. I have found two local suppliers of the fish emulsion.

Does any one in Southwestern Indiana, Northwestern Kentucky or maybe Southeastern Illinois know where to get “Woodstream Ringer Lawn Restore?” I am looking for any organic products but really need a supplier of Ringer closer to home.

I am also interested in information on any other CGM suppliers in my area don’t care if it is bagged or bulk. It is good to have more than one supplier.

Thanks!

NattyLawn
03-21-2006, 07:58 PM
All right, looks like your set then. As far as fish emulsion, I recommend fish hydrolysate. Check here for a lot of reasons to switch:
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/kb/fish-fertilizer/index.html

As far as Woodstream goes, you're probably not going to find much luck with that from us. It's more of a homeowner product than one for LCO's to buy and use. It's around 30-35 a bag...

HK45Mark23
03-22-2006, 01:11 PM
Am I actually set, or is there a huge flaw in my reasoning. OK so what am I looking for, if I want to take this commercial at some point? I do like what I have read about Ringer, but I still don’t know what products to buy and where to buy them for commercial organic application. I am humbly seeking education. I did check out the Fish Emulsion and Fish Hydrolysate. I also pulled up some interesting information concerning stabilizing fish hydrolysate and that using the wrong stabilizer had detrimental affects to the lawn.

Here you can see that improper stabilization by implication of formic acid had phytotoxic effects on plants.

http://www.noamkelp.com/nutrition.html

Here is some more information on the fish hydrolysate.


http://www.jedc.org/salmon/QualityAssurance.pdf

http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/docrep/W0495E/w0495E04.htm

http://ift.confex.com/ift/2005/techprogram/paper_28185.htm

http://www.rainyside.com/resources/fishfert.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3842931&dopt=Abstract

This is the actual web site that first educated me on organic and also led me to Lawnsite indirectly.

http://www.richsoil.com/lawn/index.jsp

NattyLawn
03-23-2006, 09:03 AM
Now, would a company sell an unstable, phytotoxic product that's harmful to plants? I guess it comes down to what you use in the field and what works for you...Good luck in your organic pursuits.

HK45Mark23
03-24-2006, 01:25 AM
Maybe, if bought in bulk and specifically not labeled for lawn care. That was the primes to my post.

If say some one bought a 55 gallon barrel of Fish Hydrolysate then it would be necessary to know the stabilizer.

If you can get it in that kind of bulk or not, I don’t know.

But usually if you can find the manufacturer, and you have the right connections you can get any thing you want.

You know, I have found some products labeled Fish Emulsion, but state that they are cold processed, according to your definition they are actually Fish Hydrolysate. One manufacturer in particular is Bonide.

Any opinions on a product labeled emulsion but stressing cold processing?

HK45Mark23
03-24-2006, 03:09 AM
Really I think that Fish Emulsion is usually cooked and the byproduct of the manufacturing process and Fish Hydrolysate it a process where the entire fish is liquefied and cold processed. Although I have found Fish Emulsion that is cold processed, this leads me to believe that the cold processed Emulsion is probably closer to the process of manufacturing Hydrolysate than not. I am so happy to have found this difference in product and to have the opportunity to learn about the Organic lawn care approach from those who implement it daily.

Today I actually acquired Corn Gluten Meal, and it was 13.99 for 50 lbs. The new bags that came in yesterday are marked at 15.99 but they still had 6 older bags at the older price.

Does any one think since I already used Corn Gluten Feed Pellets, that I should use the Corn Gluten Meal, or maybe I should just wait till fall and use it then? Any opinions?

I did find Ringer at Home Depot and Woodstream said that not only Home Depot would have it but Ace Hardware and True Value would also carry it.

It is king of funny, I almost bought CGM or commercial pre-emergent that were 95-100% CGM at $30.00 + on line for 50 lbs and paid $45- $90 in shipping and low and behold a COOP just 20 miles from my house has it for $13.99-15.99. I also almost paid $17.99-$25.00 for a 25 lb bag or $22.99- $35.00 for a 40 lb bag of Ringer plus again high shipping cost same rates as the afore mentioned prices per lb when it is just 3 min from my house at Home Depot for $15.00 per 25 lbs (wish they had the 40 lb bag).

I know some say that Ringer is not commercial, but no one has said where to get 55 gallon barrels of commercial organic like fish hydrolysate, or your idea of commercial quality and quantity.

I did call the local Agriculture office and the extension office yesterday and today and called Perdue about a turf management course as well as the lawn pesticide license. So the way it sounds (over simplified) it is just a book to read, a test to take with a few fees.

NattyLawn
03-24-2006, 08:42 AM
You can get 55 gallon drums of fish. Send me a PM, and I'll give you a number to call for some more info if you're really interested.

As far as your CGM goes, I think I mentioned before that there has been some debate on whether feed grade CGM contains the same pre-emergence properties as those labeled a herbicide by Iowa State. I have never used feed grade, so I can't tell you if it works. Do you know how much N was in the feed pellets and what rate you put it down at? Looks like you might have to wait until fall.

15 bucks for a $25 dollar bag isn't good at all. Do some research as there are a lot of organic fertilizers out there, and probably distributors close to you. Woodstream is geared towards the homeowner. That's why it's all over HD and Ace.

DUSTYCEDAR
03-24-2006, 08:55 AM
for those of u that spray the fish how bad does it smell?
will all the cats follow me home

NattyLawn
03-24-2006, 10:26 AM
for those of u that spray the fish how bad does it smell?
will all the cats follow me home


Fish hydrolysate might leave a little bit of faint aftersmell after application, and the best way to combat the smell is to use what you mix the same day. Now, I have smelled the spray after the tree tech has left it sit in the tank overnight in 90 degree weather, and that def. stinks.

cspurr
09-14-2009, 02:19 AM
OK...so years later...lets revive this thread.

Does anybody know if AG PLUS in Indiana sells the Corn Gluten Meal in 50lb. bags? And, if so, how much are they getting for it?

The application rate for CGM is CRAZY to say the least...20lbs. per 1000 sq. ft. per initial treatment.

Therefore, on your average postage stamp sized lawn (11000 sq. ft.) you would be putting down roughly 200lbs. of material for the first application.

If it is available for $16 per bag, that is $64 at COST from the local Co-op. So, to make any money...you would have to realistically charge AT LEAST $128 (BARE MINIMUM) per initial application + fudge factor, etc. Who in the heck is going to pay such a price? You would have to get the CGM for $4-$5 per 50lb. bag to be economically viable.

I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to EFFECTIVELY GO GREEN...but nobody will pay those kinds of prices...this is why virtually nobody goes green on a commercial level for any period of sustained efficiency. And, quite frankly, it is sad.

Does anybody care to comment on this? Does anybody have better info? Is there anybody else out there that would love to go green, but just can't foresee this happening anytime soon from an economic perspective. To be honest, I hate all of these Monsanto chemicals and the like...I don't - in my heart of hearts, believe they are safe for prolonged exposure. I just don't. Not based on what I have read.


-Chris
Tidal Turf
www.tidalturf.com

ICT Bill
09-14-2009, 09:43 AM
Interesting
a couple of things
CGM has to be 60% protein to be effective as a pre-m, does less protein have the same effect? probably is the best answer I can give but have no data

3 or 4 years later I don't think you are going to find those kind of prices, I have seen online pricing of over $40 per 50lb bag. prices vary all over the country. close to source, better pricing

CGM is 9 to 10% nitrogen in its bagged form so even if you do not get control it still makes turf look great, but we are still in the feed the plant mode (mostly)

CGM is the byproduct of a couple different products, the main one is corn starch production, the CGM is waste in the corn starch industry

It is in a slurry form when i comes out, it is dried and bagged or dried pellitized and bagged

We make a liquid corn gluten meal called Gluten-8, 1 quart treats 1000 sq ft, it has only been available for 1 season. All of the feedback that we have gotten, and most of the data points that way, is that it is 25% to 50% more effective than bagged CGM

Marcos
09-15-2009, 02:41 AM
OK...so years later...lets revive this thread.

Does anybody know if AG PLUS in Indiana sells the Corn Gluten Meal in 50lb. bags? And, if so, how much are they getting for it?

The application rate for CGM is CRAZY to say the least...20lbs. per 1000 sq. ft. per initial treatment.

Therefore, on your average postage stamp sized lawn (11000 sq. ft.) you would be putting down roughly 200lbs. of material for the first application.

If it is available for $16 per bag, that is $64 at COST from the local Co-op. So, to make any money...you would have to realistically charge AT LEAST $128 (BARE MINIMUM) per initial application + fudge factor, etc. Who in the heck is going to pay such a price? You would have to get the CGM for $4-$5 per 50lb. bag to be economically viable.

I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to EFFECTIVELY GO GREEN...but nobody will pay those kinds of prices...this is why virtually nobody goes green on a commercial level for any period of sustained efficiency. And, quite frankly, it is sad.

Does anybody care to comment on this? Does anybody have better info? Is there anybody else out there that would love to go green, but just can't foresee this happening anytime soon from an economic perspective. To be honest, I hate all of these Monsanto chemicals and the like...I don't - in my heart of hearts, believe they are safe for prolonged exposure. I just don't. Not based on what I have read.


-Chris
Tidal Turf
www.tidalturf.com

Chris,

Year in & year out I get a 60% protein CGM out of a grain mill in Farmersville Ohio for 'round about the price you mentioned, give or take.

Yeah, you're 100% correct in your estimation.
If.... you were to go about with a wholesale plan to treat all of your customers lawns with CGM at 20 # / sq ft, you'd surely get a lot of resistance on that pricing. :cry:

One of our stated goals WITH our customers from the get-go is to work together to establish bio-fed turf that is effectively D-E-N-S-E, a cultural practice that naturally & effectively chokes out most weeds.

The general plan going in for us is to not have to use CGM except for the extreme high-pressure areas like sidewalk & driveway perimeters, paver edges, or maybe a historical "problem area" or 2, etc.

For example, an 11, 000 sq ft lawn like you described might only have one driveway and a couple of sidewalks which would require one 50# bag of CGM, maximum. Again, assuming this is a sustained customer, the rest of the lawn shouldn't need pre-emergent.
For 'ROUND 1', we generally use a standard grade of soybean meal (6-1-2 approx analysis) at about 15 # / 1000, along with any CGM applied & blown into the perimeter hard edges.

Chris,
What you have to say about...."nobody pays those kinds of prices" (for CGM, and organics in general).
Well, All I can say to that is the proof is out there right in front of you.
There are thousands upon thousands of successful organic and organic-bridge lawn care companies nation-wide, not to mention world-wide.


The key to selling something that you REALLY BELIEVE IN lies in proving its POTENTIAL VALUE to the target customer.
Until the time comes when you'll begin to fully understand the type of living and thinking encompassed within this end of the green industry, you'll likely not be able to honestly say to yourself that you can sell the value of organics. :waving:

cspurr
09-15-2009, 09:57 AM
I just talked with Ag Plus out of New Haven...they are selling CGM for $27.99 per 50lb. bag as of yesterday. $16 isn't sounding so bad after all...

ICT BILL - What is the cost per liquid quart of the product that you sell?

I have read a little about using Soybean Meal...how is that working out for those of you who have used it extensively?

I like the idea of using CGM for edging, borders, etc...that makes it much more economically feasible.

Farmersville, OH is about a 2.5-3 hour drive for me so that isn't going to help me much unless I buy it by the dump truck, or pallet load - which is too costly for me at this point in my young business.

MARCOS - I mentioned a few different prices...what are you getting it at?

Thank you all for your comments...please keep them coming.

I am ready to move over to ORGANIC LAWN CARE - nobody has to win me over - I just think it is SAFE, period. So any tips that ANYONE is willing to provide would be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks for your time,
-Chris
Tidal Turf
www.tidalturf.com

Kiril
09-15-2009, 10:59 AM
So any tips that ANYONE is willing to provide would be MUCH appreciated.

Find a good source for bulk compost.

Marcos
09-15-2009, 12:30 PM
I just talked with Ag Plus out of New Haven...they are selling CGM for $27.99 per 50lb. bag as of yesterday. $16 isn't sounding so bad after all...

ICT BILL - What is the cost per liquid quart of the product that you sell?

I have read a little about using Soybean Meal...how is that working out for those of you who have used it extensively?

I like the idea of using CGM for edging, borders, etc...that makes it much more economically feasible.

Farmersville, OH is about a 2.5-3 hour drive for me so that isn't going to help me much unless I buy it by the dump truck, or pallet load - which is too costly for me at this point in my young business.

MARCOS - I mentioned a few different prices...what are you getting it at?

Thank you all for your comments...please keep them coming.

I am ready to move over to ORGANIC LAWN CARE - nobody has to win me over - I just think it is SAFE, period. So any tips that ANYONE is willing to provide would be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks for your time,
-Chris
Tidal Turf
www.tidalturf.com

Chris,

I can see you're absolutely chomping at the bit to switch over to protein meals and/or compost as your nutrient sources.
That's great! :clapping:
But before you start working the phone for local grain pricing, you're going to have to do X amount of homework on exactly what you're going to be applying, the rate(s), the different nutrient values per each grain, as well as the overall driving concept encompassed within all of us within organic-dom which (generally) is.... "build the soil, don't just feed the grass".
I could easily sit here & key-stroke out a sample program or two for you.
But why would I want do that when it's already been done here on Lawnsite? :confused:
Just go back to the main page & click on 'Organic Lawn Care'.
You'll see a bunch of permanent 'stickys' near the top of the page.
Read the 4 threads Dan Hall put there 6 years ago.
Yeah, granted, he's "JUST a homeowner", but he absolutely knows his #### when it comes to using processed protein meals in turf & landscape situations.

As far as pricing goes, the local Ag pesticide agent in your little piece of Indiana may care a whole lot whether your stuff is labeled as a fertilizer.
Fertilizer re-labelling of feed grains typically will somewhat affect the wholesale pricing upward to a certain degree.
And to be perfectly frank, many agents DO NOT care whatsoever, or may choose to turn a blind eye in favor of other sections in their reports.
But you'll have to carefully feel out your market for exactly what's going on up there & how tight they're regulating it.

I googled 'North Central Indiana Grain Elevators" and came up with something you might want to use to find some competitive vendors & futures pricing:
http://www.farmnetservices.com/farm/mail-3587-65-0.html

Grain prices are even more volatile than fertilizer prices, so keep an ear out to what's going on.
If you call a grain mill on the phone out-of-the-blue looking for a price for 60% CGM, do you think you're going to get the quote you want to hear?
Probably not.
Just like the ag fertilizer you're used to, your purchased volume of meals will often dictate the price per bag (to a certain degree), so you'll need to have a relationship with your vendors, as well as know very well the game of eye & voice poker.

Marketing your new business direction to your existing base & new prospects this fall & winter will be the next challenge, of course.
But again, it should be fun and quite successful as long as you truly BELIEVE in what you're getting in to.
You'll do quite well as long as your customers & prospects are made to fully understand the full scope of VALUE provided to them & the environment by your company & the products you apply.

ICT Bill
09-15-2009, 04:47 PM
I just talked with Ag Plus out of New Haven...they are selling CGM for $27.99 per 50lb. bag as of yesterday. $16 isn't sounding so bad after all...

ICT BILL - What is the cost per liquid quart of the product that you sell?


Thanks for your time,
-Chris
Tidal Turf
www.tidalturf.com


The $27.99 bag will treat 2500 sq ft at a cost of $11.96 per 1000. our Gluten-8 costs $9.98 per 1000, 1 gallon treats 4000 sq ft and weighs 9 pounds the equivilant of 80 pounds of CGM

phasthound
09-15-2009, 06:42 PM
The $27.99 bag will treat 2500 sq ft at a cost of $11.96 per 1000. our Gluten-8 costs $9.98 per 1000, 1 gallon treats 4000 sq ft and weighs 9 pounds the equivilant of 80 pounds of CGM

In addition to the cost of product per 1000, is in the reduced amount of labor required in the application method. Big savings here! :)

NattyLawn
09-16-2009, 07:52 AM
In addition to the cost of product per 1000, is in the reduced amount of labor required in the application method. Big savings here! :)

Not necessarily. I use a Permagreen Magnum RideOn Spreader. I'd rather load that thing up than drag hose.

NattyLawn
09-16-2009, 06:12 PM
Kiril,

I'm not buying into the sustainability angle anymore involving the use of corn or soybeans as fertilizer. Farmers in this country are paid to overproduce these two crops and at least one of them is in just about all processed foods we buy at the supermarket. The amount we use as fert is a tiny percentage of what's produced.

Your thoughts?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-16-2009, 06:30 PM
Not necessarily. I use a Permagreen Magnum RideOn Spreader. I'd rather load that thing up than drag hose.


don't you mean you would rather use something that might actually work or at the least would give some kind benefit if it doesn't?

the Iowa studies clearly state how much CGH is TRULY needed to provide effect, add that with how water soluble CGH is, i wonder how effective a "diluted" CGH product would be?:rolleyes:

what is the N value for this product being said to be as effective or better and easier applied? if it does not contain the same values as these studies one must assume it's diluted? and even if proper rate was being applied what about the solubility issue. gee it was a wet spring no?

not trying to rain on anybodies parade but lets get real here.the research is already done by Iowa state U if anybody cares to understand what their applying/buying. i know the salesmanship is effective but are the products?

from Iowa studies;
Corn gluten hydrolysate is a water-soluble product derived from corn gluten meal through enzyme hydrolysis. The CGH is herbicidally active and contains 10 to 14% N by weight (Christians et al., 1994).

Greenhouse tests have shown that CGH has greater herbicidal activity than CGM (Liu et al., 1994). In a preliminary field trial, however, the CGH had varying effects on crabgrass (Digitaria spp.) germination when applied at the same rates as CGM (Bingaman and Christians, 1996). These variable effects could be due to rapid microbial degradation or leaching because of the water solubility of CGH.

phasthound
09-16-2009, 08:01 PM
Kiril,

I'm not buying into the sustainability angle anymore involving the use of corn or soybeans as fertilizer. Farmers in this country are paid to overproduce these two crops and at least one of them is in just about all processed foods we buy at the supermarket. The amount we use as fert is a tiny percentage of what's produced.

Your thoughts?

It's my understanding that Iowa State was originally asked to study possible uses for the massive amount of waste product (corn gluten) left over from processing corn. Dr. Christen stumbled upon the herbicidal properties in the material and the rest is history. What is more sustainable than turning waste into a usable resource? :clapping:
Also, one of the reasons for the high price is that Iowa State earns money from the sale these products & the funds are being used to fund studies to find other uses for agricultural waste.

I can't back this up, it's all second & third hand knowledge.

phasthound
09-16-2009, 08:03 PM
don't you mean you would rather use something that might actually work or at the least would give some kind benefit if it doesn't?

the Iowa studies clearly state how much CGH is TRULY needed to provide effect, add that with how water soluble CGH is, i wonder how effective a "diluted" CGH product would be?:rolleyes:

what is the N value for this product being said to be as effective or better and easier applied? if it does not contain the same values as these studies one must assume it's diluted? and even if proper rate was being applied what about the solubility issue. gee it was a wet spring no?

not trying to rain on anybodies parade but lets get real here.the research is already done by Iowa state U if anybody cares to understand what their applying/buying. i know the salesmanship is effective but are the products?

from Iowa studies;
Corn gluten hydrolysate is a water-soluble product derived from corn gluten meal through enzyme hydrolysis. The CGH is herbicidally active and contains 10 to 14% N by weight (Christians et al., 1994).

Greenhouse tests have shown that CGH has greater herbicidal activity than CGM (Liu et al., 1994). In a preliminary field trial, however, the CGH had varying effects on crabgrass (Digitaria spp.) germination when applied at the same rates as CGM (Bingaman and Christians, 1996). These variable effects could be due to rapid microbial degradation or leaching because of the water solubility of CGH.

Charles,

What is your first hand experience with corn gluten hydrolysate?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-16-2009, 09:26 PM
barry, i do still have some respect for you, please don't turn this into because ive never use this product you sell too, you know as well as i do ....the facts


let me say to that CGH at proper rate might work to some degree, sure it's half life is very short.

barry have you read the research? do you know how much product is needed from their #'s? per k?

so you stand behind a 2-3%N quart per k?

phasthound
09-16-2009, 10:05 PM
barry, i do still have some respect for you, please don't turn this into because ive never use this product you sell too, you know as well as i do ....the facts


let me say to that CGH at proper rate might work to some degree, sure it's half life is very short.

barry have you read the research? do you know how much product is needed from their #'s? per k?

so you stand behind a 2-3%N quart per k?

Thank you for your respect.

Kiril
09-17-2009, 08:02 AM
Kiril,

I'm not buying into the sustainability angle anymore involving the use of corn or soybeans as fertilizer. Farmers in this country are paid to overproduce these two crops and at least one of them is in just about all processed foods we buy at the supermarket. The amount we use as fert is a tiny percentage of what's produced.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts ....... if the alternative is the landfill then by all means using it as a fertilizer is a justified use ..... and that goes for CGM as well.

ICT Bill
09-17-2009, 08:06 AM
My thoughts ....... if the alternative is the landfill then by all means using it as a fertilizer is a justified use ..... and that goes for CGM as well.

Darn, you get up early, its 5 am where you live and you ar on here posting, at 5 am I am dead asleep most days

Kiril
09-17-2009, 08:08 AM
It's my understanding that Iowa State was originally asked to study possible uses for the massive amount of waste product (corn gluten) left over from processing corn. Dr. Christen stumbled upon the herbicidal properties in the material and the rest is history. What is more sustainable than turning waste into a usable resource? :clapping:

You do know that CGM is used for livestock, poultry, and pet feed .... right?

Kiril
09-17-2009, 08:10 AM
Darn, you get up early, its 5 am where you live and you ar on here posting, at 5 am I am dead asleep most days

Actually, this is late for me.
It seems lately I only get 3 hours of so sleep at night. Yesterday was a 3AM morning after going to bed at 1AM. :cry:
Today I got 3.5 hours of sleep. :)

Marcos
09-17-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm not buying into the sustainability angle anymore involving the use of corn or soybeans as fertilizer. Farmers in this country are paid to overproduce these two crops and at least one of them is in just about all processed foods we buy at the supermarket. The amount we use as fert is a tiny percentage of what's produced.

Your thoughts?

I'll also throw my 2 cents in on this:

Alot of this has to do with supply & demand of the local livestock market and the costs to haul this kind of stuff all over tarnation up and down the roads & along the rails.
If someone is paying $16.00-$20.00 /bag for CGM in the Midwest in the heart of the corn belt, most assuredly there is very little if any freight involved.
Someone along the East Coast or California buying the same stuff might have to pay as much as 3X more, the difference ALL being freight & the labor associated with it.

If my interests were suddenly anywhere else BUT the Midwest I'd be 1st looking for whatever organic means that specific region held the most cost-efficient.
Just off the top of my head:
If I were somewhere along the ocean, I might utilize processed semi-deorodized fish meal, kelp meal & pulverized sea shells from outwash areas.
If I were geographically a lot closer to one of those Eastern European-run chicken & egg mega-farms, I suppose I might buddy up with those folks to buy X amount of chicken feather & poop meal for one or two of my rounds.
Lord knows they're looking for new & creative ways to get rid of it!
If I lived in California and I watched my state go bankrupt, and Barry was coming to 'bail us out', I'd probably hang out a shingle advertising that I'll compost entire lawns & landscapes for free!! :laugh::laugh::laugh: (kidding!)

But seriously folks, what it's really all about is location....location....location.

phasthound
09-17-2009, 04:14 PM
You do know that CGM is used for livestock, poultry, and pet feed .... right?

Yea, that's a good use too.

phasthound
09-17-2009, 04:17 PM
If I lived in California and I watched my state go bankrupt, and Barry was coming to 'bail us out', I'd probably hang out a shingle advertising that I'll compost entire lawns & landscapes for free!! :laugh::laugh::laugh: (kidding!)


Hey! I live on the other coast! And I'm not bailing anyone out, they have to buy my sh*it. :dancing:

dishboy
09-18-2009, 07:31 AM
Pre-M's seem counter productive to growing healthy turf since they root prune at a time when we should be encouraging root growth .

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-18-2009, 07:37 AM
Thank you for your respect.

it's dwindling more and more friend, for some reason or another i knew you wouldn't answer?:rolleyes: we don't have to agree in life but please just be honest.

im sure your customers would like for you to answer....have you read the research? do you stand behind using a CGH product that has a lower N value then the studies and is applied one quart per k?

your product will most likely treat at best 1 sq meter.

phasthound
09-18-2009, 08:12 AM
it's dwindling more and more friend, for some reason or another i knew you wouldn't answer?:rolleyes: we don't have to agree in life but please just be honest.

im sure your customers would like for you to answer....have you read the research? do you stand behind using a CGH product that has a lower N value then the studies and is applied one quart per k?

your product will most likely treat at best 1 sq meter.

Charles, do not question my honesty.

Smallaxe
09-18-2009, 08:32 AM
Pre-M's seem counter productive to growing healthy turf since they root prune at a time when we should be encouraging root growth .

Makes sense to me. :)

Marcos
09-18-2009, 11:50 AM
Pre-M's seem counter productive to growing healthy turf since they root prune at a time when we should be encouraging root growth .

This is yet another good reason we generally don't blanket-apply corn gluten.

Blow CGM into the perimeter edges, treat the entire property with another meal at 20# / 1000, spot treat the weeds, carefully blow the sidewalks, say howdy ma'am, then get out.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-19-2009, 12:31 PM
Charles, do not question my honesty.

im not questioning your honesty but i am asking you to be honest about my questions to you. if you don't choose to answer thats up to you as always.

the biggest problem i have with you and your buddy is you guys have single handily taken over just about every thread with non stop commercials and claims you BOTH will not back up when questioned.

maybe the newbie's who don't know any better are impressed with bills google first hit cut and paste answers and your claims of effectiveness but who are we really kidding here???

i understand you guys are trying to fight a good fight "i think?" but when your it's your profit margins on the line one must think who are you guys really fighting for?

please continue the unsubstantiated claims and commercials. im out......

phasthound
09-19-2009, 04:17 PM
i understand you guys are trying to fight a good fight "i think?" but when your it's your profit margins on the line one must think who are you guys really fighting for?

please continue the unsubstantiated claims and commercials. im out......

Damn, you've figured out my business plan! Make outrageous claims about products that don't work and retire early on the huge mark-up from one time sales because there is no repeat business.

You do realize that the argument you're making sounds a lot like the chemical manufactures constant cries of natural methods as "junk science"?

You can believe and say what you want. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-20-2009, 01:58 PM
barry, i don't like the direction this has gone. i just asked you to answer a few relevant questions pertaining to a certain manufactures product you now represent and seem to have so much to say about. i said NOthing about the effectiveness of CGH technology applied at proper rate, if you want to divert attention thats on you. since you won't answer my questions pertaining to this manufactures specific product i must assume you don't know the answers or just don't want to say?

for whats it's worth i do not think all the products you represent are....diluted and a waste of time.

phasthound
09-20-2009, 09:29 PM
Charles,

Please feel free to phone me at your convenience if you would like to talk.

ICT Bill
09-20-2009, 11:08 PM
QUOTE=growingdeeprootsorganicly;3195366]barry, i don't like the direction this has gone. i just asked you to answer a few relevant questions pertaining to a certain manufactures product you now represent and seem to have so much to say about. i said NOthing about the effectiveness of CGH technology applied at proper rate, if you want to divert attention thats on you. since you won't answer my questions pertaining to this manufactures specific product i must assume you don't know the answers or just don't want to say?

for whats it's worth i do not think all the products you represent are....diluted and a waste of time.[/QUOTE]

starry night
09-21-2009, 11:17 AM
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to swat at a hornets' fight but what does politics have to do with this subject matter. I don't agree with the left and I don't believe we folks are causing global warming (if it exists or not). If Kiril wants to stand up for sustainability, I don't care why. I'm good with the goal of sustainable landscapes. I just wouldn't want the GOVERMENT to FORCE us into measures towards those goals. Kiril is a very strong advocate of sustainability but I have not read anything by him that would pose a threat to any of us.

phasthound
09-21-2009, 06:51 PM
barry, i do still have some respect for you, please don't turn this into because ive never use this product you sell too, you know as well as i do ....the facts


let me say to that CGH at proper rate might work to some degree, sure it's half life is very short.

barry have you read the research? do you know how much product is needed from their #'s? per k?

so you stand behind a 2-3%N quart per k?

To answer your questions: no I have not read most of the research, yes I do stand behind the labeled recommended application rate.

The facts are that before I added this product to our line, it was tested and met our approval. The feed back from those who used it in the field this year was very positive. Orders are coming in now from users for next spring.

I receive questions from others aside from you, Charles. They get honest answers. Is liquid corn gluten as effective as chemical herbicides? No, but as part of a program of good cultural practices and proper nutrition, the results are good. Is liquid corn gluten as cost effective as chemical herbicides? No, if you are only taking application costs into consideration. Does liquid corn gluten provide better results than corn gluten meal? yes, I believe it does. Is liquid corn gluten more cost effective that con gluten meal? Yes. Are there other methods to organically control weeds? Yes. Is this a viable product for those who prefer no herbicides? Yes.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-22-2009, 06:43 AM
[QUOTE=phasthound;3197040] no I have not read most of the research, yes I do stand behind the labeled recommended application rate.


makes sense to me, thank you for your honesty

Marcos
09-23-2009, 11:58 AM
Is liquid corn gluten as effective as chemical herbicides? No, but as part of a program of good cultural practices and proper nutrition, the results are good. Is liquid corn gluten as cost effective as chemical herbicides? No, if you are only taking application costs into consideration. Does liquid corn gluten provide better results than corn gluten meal? yes, I believe it does. Is liquid corn gluten more cost effective that con gluten meal? Yes. Are there other methods to organically control weeds? Yes. Is this a viable product for those who prefer no herbicides? Yes.

I will venture to add to this comparison, if I may.

A hypothetical situation:
Suppose you compared two decent sized lawns right next door to each other, each 1/2 acre exactly.
Each had the exact same seed blend, say, fescues.
Each had the exact same type of soil makeup.
Each had top-notch maintenance practices in terms of reseeding thin spots when necessary, mowing properly & irrigation, smart edging practices, etc...whether it was DIY or contracted.
The only difference between the two yards is one's been treated with some type of 5-step chemical program with, say, Dimension as it's pre-emergent.
The other's had an organic bridge IPM program for the same time period, implementing some form of corn gluten.

If both of these lawns are maintained to a high enough echelon to which pre-emergent isn't logically needed to be broadcast THROUGHOUT, but instead only in high instance areas like sidewalk perimeters, wouldn't cost comparisons between Dimension & corn gluten become increasingly insignificant?
In terms of pre-emergent, what was a 22K sq ft comparison just became something like a 500-800 linear feet comparison.

Your thoughts?

phasthound
09-23-2009, 01:39 PM
I will venture to add to this comparison, if I may.

A hypothetical situation:
Suppose you compared two decent sized lawns right next door to each other, each 1/2 acre exactly.
Each had the exact same seed blend, say, fescues.
Each had the exact same type of soil makeup.
Each had top-notch maintenance practices in terms of reseeding thin spots when necessary, mowing properly & irrigation, smart edging practices, etc...whether it was DIY or contracted.
The only difference between the two yards is one's been treated with some type of 5-step chemical program with, say, Dimension as it's pre-emergent.
The other's had an organic bridge IPM program for the same time period, implementing some form of corn gluten.

If both of these lawns are maintained to a high enough echelon to which pre-emergent isn't logically needed to be broadcast THROUGHOUT, but instead only in high instance areas like sidewalk perimeters, wouldn't cost comparisons between Dimension & corn gluten become increasingly insignificant?
In terms of pre-emergent, what was a 22K sq ft comparison just became something like a 500-800 linear feet comparison.

Your thoughts?

Yes, I would agree that the cost difference between Dimension and corn gluten in this comparison would become increasingly insignificant. In fact, I would go a step further and say that the organic bridge IPM program should cost less to maintain than the chemical program.

ICT Bill
09-23-2009, 05:44 PM
I will venture to add to this comparison, if I may.

A hypothetical situation:
Suppose you compared two decent sized lawns right next door to each other, each 1/2 acre exactly.
Each had the exact same seed blend, say, fescues.
Each had the exact same type of soil makeup.
Each had top-notch maintenance practices in terms of reseeding thin spots when necessary, mowing properly & irrigation, smart edging practices, etc...whether it was DIY or contracted.
The only difference between the two yards is one's been treated with some type of 5-step chemical program with, say, Dimension as it's pre-emergent.
The other's had an organic bridge IPM program for the same time period, implementing some form of corn gluten.

If both of these lawns are maintained to a high enough echelon to which pre-emergent isn't logically needed to be broadcast THROUGHOUT, but instead only in high instance areas like sidewalk perimeters, wouldn't cost comparisons between Dimension & corn gluten become increasingly insignificant?
In terms of pre-emergent, what was a 22K sq ft comparison just became something like a 500-800 linear feet comparison.

Your thoughts?

I agree with your premise Marcos, unfortunately dimension runs $1 per 1000 sq ft and CGM runs $10+ per 1000 sq ft

But if you broadcast dimension on 22K and only use CGM for 1000 sq ft (and this is probably what you meant)
$22 vs $10

phasthound
09-23-2009, 06:44 PM
God forbid I put words in Marcos' mouth, but my interpretation of his post is that a properly maintained turf system will results in less weeds to control.

Marcos
09-23-2009, 07:12 PM
I agree with your premise Marcos, unfortunately dimension runs $1 per 1000 sq ft and CGM runs $10+ per 1000 sq ft

But if you broadcast dimension on 22K and only use CGM for 1000 sq ft (and this is probably what you meant)
$22 vs $10

No, I meant that in both scenarios only the hard-edge perimeters are treated.
So this means the approximate total cost for the Dimension would be only $1

(Remember, the yards are identical & are both culturally maintained to the Nth degree in terms of proper mowing, edging, core aeration, spot seeding.)

Around here the cost of CGM is approximately $7/K at 20#/K, but we'll round it up to $10 for this specific example.

So....$1 vs $10
A $9 difference between yards. That's the same as a modest lunch at TGI Fridays.
The cost of the labor & overheard surely dwarfs $9.
We can talk of the organic marketing advantages day & night if you'd like, the key point here is the difference between pre-emergent weed control costs get less & less significant as they both approach 0.
This is basic Business Calculus 101.


My ultimate point is.....IF.....a core company wide emphasis of overall turf health & density as the central means of weed control is driven home with the customer from the get-go, from the original point-of-sale, then it's often a lot easier to figure out which (potential) customers will do their share to cooperate and work with their lawn care provider, and which ones likely won't.

So, not only is my point here about decreased differences in weed control, it's also about the often unspoken (& in some markets unheard of) practice:
the deliberate pre-screening of potential customers.

phasthound
09-23-2009, 08:35 PM
My ultimate point is.....IF.....a core company wide emphasis of overall turf health & density as the central means of weed control is driven home with the customer from the get-go, from the original point-of-sale, then it's often a lot easier to figure out which (potential) customers will do their share to cooperate and work with their lawn care provider, and which ones likely won't.

So, not only is my point here about decreased differences in weed control, it's also about the often unspoken (& in some markets unheard of) practice:
the deliberate pre-screening of potential customers.

I absolutely agree with this approach. A smart business has a target market and a plan to conect with it. Or you could try to underbid TG.

Learn how to get results and separate yourself from lowballers. This is the key to successful businesses.

starry night
09-23-2009, 09:09 PM
Has anyone read the concept behind the "Blue Ocean Strategy." ? (Google it.)
It's exactly what you are talking about, Barry. And it should work well for us, the vanguard of organic lawn care.

Marcos
09-24-2009, 10:31 AM
Has anyone read the concept behind the "Blue Ocean Strategy." ? (Google it.)


Thanks for posting that, d&h. :waving:
I've not read that one yet.

ICT Bill
09-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Has anyone read the concept behind the "Blue Ocean Strategy." ? (Google it.)
It's exactly what you are talking about, Barry. And it should work well for us, the vanguard of organic lawn care.

Setting customer expectations is a critical part of consultative selling

Blue Ocean Strategy, I did not expect that on here. NICE

We can talk of the organic marketing advantages day & night if you'd like, the key point here is the difference between pre-emergent weed control costs get less & less significant as they both approach 0.

Marcos I am not following you on this point?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-26-2009, 03:30 PM
(quote from bill)(Gluten-8) we have reduced the N to 1.5%.



The CGH is formed by treating an aqueous slurry of corn plant protein with an amylase and then a protease. The resulting filtrate contains CGH and can be evaporated and then spray dried. The dry product of CGH is water soluble (Christians et al., 1994b).

The water-soluble CGH is herbicidally active and contains 10 to 14% N by weight (Christians et al., 1994b; Liu and Christians, 1997; Liu et al., 1994).
The CGH applied at rates of 50 and 100 g m-2 had varying crabgrass control in this study and varied in effectiveness in a previous study (Bingaman and Christians, 1996). A rate of at least 200 g m-2 may be necessary to control crabgrass in the field.

32 oz of 10% N CGH =896 g
study says at least 200g per meter is needed?
1 sq meter = ruffly almost 10 sq ft
so 1 quart would "at those #'s" treat under 50 sf

if im reading the study wrong and m-2 = 2 meters sq
then would treat under 100sf and that is using a CGH product with at least 10% N

how do you remove the N and still retain the herbicidal N containing proteins?

it's a fair question....

ICT Bill
09-26-2009, 05:03 PM
(quote from bill)(Gluten-8) we have reduced the N to 1.5%.



The CGH is formed by treating an aqueous slurry of corn plant protein with an amylase and then a protease. The resulting filtrate contains CGH and can be evaporated and then spray dried. The dry product of CGH is water soluble (Christians et al., 1994b).

The water-soluble CGH is herbicidally active and contains 10 to 14% N by weight (Christians et al., 1994b; Liu and Christians, 1997; Liu et al., 1994).
The CGH applied at rates of 50 and 100 g m-2 had varying crabgrass control in this study and varied in effectiveness in a previous study (Bingaman and Christians, 1996). A rate of at least 200 g m-2 may be necessary to control crabgrass in the field.

32 oz of 10% N CGH =896 g
study says at least 200g per meter is needed?
1 sq meter = ruffly almost 10 sq ft
so 1 quart would "at those #'s" treat under 50 sf

if im reading the study wrong and m-2 = 2 meters sq
then would treat under 100sf and that is using a CGH product with at least 10% N

how do you remove the N and still retain the herbicidal N containing proteins?

it's a fair question....

We use an enzymatic process that breaks it down into the active peptides that make it work as an Pre-M herbicide. The CGM comes as a byproduct of corn starch production, they do not want the gluten

This actually has been one the break throughs in this product, the process that used to used left you with all proteins, how do you keep it stable for some sort of shelf life. That is like saying I'll stick a pork chop on the shelf and come back in 6 months and its still good, not likely.

The enzymatic process allows us a 1 year shelf life and it is more effective than CGM, pretty cool

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-26-2009, 06:02 PM
hold on a min..let me find my decoder ring to further this discussion



still not following you, are you saying your products manufacturing method can only isolate the peptides with herbicidal qualities only?

is that what your trying to say?

ICT Bill
09-26-2009, 08:07 PM
hold on a min..let me find my decoder ring to further this discussion



still not following you, are you saying your products manufacturing method can only isolate the peptides with herbicidal qualities only?

is that what your trying to say?

I do believe that is exactly what I am saying, di-peptides, peptides and others. If you read the peer review stuff you can pull out which ones do which

Stable proteins is the reason that this has not been released as a product before, no shelf life. It had to be used within days or weeks

Not anymore

If you have sites that you have been using CGM on for 2 years, according to the testing data at Iowa State University you will have as much as 93% control with liquid corn gluten meal

My theory about the year over year studies and more control over time is, I think you are depleting the seed bank on the site

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-27-2009, 01:14 PM
I do believe that is exactly what I am saying, di-peptides, peptides and others.

i guess i wasn't specific enough with my question. but yes thats exactly my point, the process that makes CGH can not just isolate only glutaminylglutamine (Gln-Gln), alaninyl-asparagine (Ala-Asn), alaninyl-glutamine (Ala-Gln), glycinyl-alanine (Gly-Ala), and alaninyl-alanine (Ala-Ala).

the only way to have a product with just those amino groups would be to synthetically make it. and still how do you take the N out of the amino?

lets put that on the side burner for now.

the only difference between CGM and CGH pound for pound is one is not water soluble and the other went through a process to make it water soluble,

and another thing i over looked is CGH is and comes as a dry product, you bring up the good point about self live, once you add the dry CGH to water like your product i can see how the protiens would want to break down.
whats the secrete to stabilizing that phos acid/ sulfuric acid?

ive looked up the patent to the manufacturing of CGH and there are a few process, all of them are very involved so it goes with out saying you buy your DRY CGH from an out side vendor, probably china?

why not sell it in the form you get it so to extend self life with out stabilizers, reduce shipping cost, and give your customers a product that might have some benefit to them? i forgot, it;s expensive in CGH dry form, and the truth is pound for pound you need the same amount as CGM to be as effective.

ICT Bill
09-27-2009, 10:33 PM
i guess i wasn't specific enough with my question. but yes thats exactly my point, the process that makes CGH can not just isolate only glutaminylglutamine (Gln-Gln), alaninyl-asparagine (Ala-Asn), alaninyl-glutamine (Ala-Gln), glycinyl-alanine (Gly-Ala), and alaninyl-alanine (Ala-Ala).

the only way to have a product with just those amino groups would be to synthetically make it. and still how do you take the N out of the amino?

lets put that on the side burner for now.

the only difference between CGM and CGH pound for pound is one is not water soluble and the other went through a process to make it water soluble,

and another thing i over looked is CGH is and comes as a dry product, you bring up the good point about self live, once you add the dry CGH to water like your product i can see how the protiens would want to break down.
whats the secrete to stabilizing that phos acid/ sulfuric acid?

ive looked up the patent to the manufacturing of CGH and there are a few process, all of them are very involved so it goes with out saying you buy your DRY CGH from an out side vendor, probably china?

why not sell it in the form you get it so to extend self life with out stabilizers, reduce shipping cost, and give your customers a product that might have some benefit to them? i forgot, it;s expensive in CGH dry form, and the truth is pound for pound you need the same amount as CGM to be as effective.

Charles, appreciate your input, thanks for your due deligence

China??

9 pounds of Gluten-8 treats 4000 sq ft, 80 pounds of CGM treats 4000 sq ft. Pound for pound??? We use bugs, the others use diesel fuel

Marcos
09-27-2009, 11:48 PM
9 pounds of Gluten-8 treats 4000 sq ft, 80 pounds of CGM treats 4000 sq ft. Pound for pound??? We use bugs, the others use diesel fuel

At the end of the day, what good buisinesman really gives a rat's about the ways & means & differences between CG processing? :confused:
Your gluten 8 product hasn't been on the market long enough to prove much of anything, other than it's obviously much more susceptible to being moved out of the target zone by heavy March & April downpours.

cspurr
06-26-2010, 03:04 PM
Just wanted to update this old thread...

We did a trial last year with alfalfa meal and soybean meal. We also used another product, which we can't disclose right now...(we bought that at the grain elevator also). Needless to say, the trial yard has NEVER looked BETTER. In fact, a neighbor came over and asked what we were putting on the turf...

Organic lawn care is THE ONLY way to go. We still plan to spot spray with a TriMec product or the like, but as far as DENSE TURF is concerned - organic is the way to go.
I was skeptical at first, but then became stunned with the results about three weeks into the treatment trial. There is just no comparison.

JDUtah
06-26-2010, 03:11 PM
Just wanted to update this old thread...

We did a trial last year with alfalfa meal and soybean meal. We also used another product, which we can't disclose right now...(we bought that at the grain elevator also). Needless to say, the trial yard has NEVER looked BETTER. In fact, a neighbor came over and asked what we were putting on the turf...

Organic lawn care is THE ONLY way to go. We still plan to spot spray with a TriMec product or the like, but as far as DENSE TURF is concerned - organic is the way to go.
I was skeptical at first, but then became stunned with the results about three weeks into the treatment trial. There is just no comparison.

how mush did you apply per k? How often?

Marcos
06-29-2010, 02:56 PM
Just wanted to update this old thread...

We did a trial last year with alfalfa meal and soybean meal. We also used another product, which we can't disclose right now...(we bought that at the grain elevator also). Needless to say, the trial yard has NEVER looked BETTER. In fact, a neighbor came over and asked what we were putting on the turf...

Organic lawn care is THE ONLY way to go. We still plan to spot spray with a TriMec product or the like, but as far as DENSE TURF is concerned - organic is the way to go.
I was skeptical at first, but then became stunned with the results about three weeks into the treatment trial. There is just no comparison.

You're in Fort Wayne so I'll suspect when you're talking "dense turf", you're talking about bluegrass, or blue/rye stands that are generally conducive to Great Lakes region climate.

Any stand of turf that's worth a snuff is made to be "dense" in order to crowd out potential weeds.
Some species are more aggressive in doing so, such as bluegrass with its rhizomes & bermuda and zoysia with their stolons.
Others aren't, such as ryes & tall fescues.

Don't give 100% credit to organics like alfalfa meal for creating dense turf.
The turf you're talking about could've been well on its way to becoming dense with the help of any needed fall raking & seeding & the help of your company's proper cultural management.
So in other words, seeding / sodding / sound cultural management practices come 1st, then organics! :waving:
The meals you applied was the icing on the cake in terms of waking up the microbes in the soil, allowing them time and space so they can go forth to be fruitful & multiply.
In the end, the turf's overall response is the end result of better & better health management of the soil's microbes.