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View Full Version : I am confused about trailer capacities...


thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 01:27 AM
OK, I hate to sound totally ignorant about trailers, but I am. I have ordered this trailer:

http://www.kaufmantrailers.com/catalog.php?ID=478db4b1123b6cf1c27e0cf7027012b222cab6d98ac7beb31e3f7c87b5638d9a&PHPSESSID=8e7547da104b4dbe3c56fde4a5f5fea2

But I had it shortened to a 20' trailer with a 4' dovetail. The order will not be finalized until I fax back the invoice so I need input from you guys before I do that. Here is what I am wondering...

It says the G.V.W.R. is 25,900 lbs. The salesman told me the trailer weighs 5,900lbs. So does this mean that if you have the correct vehicle, that trailer can actually CARRY 10 tons of equipment? (btw...the actual trailer weight will be 5,000 lbs due to shortening of the bed...so I assume the G.V.W.R. would then be 25,000 lbs)

You see, last year, I bought a 6 ton trailer..thinking it could hall 6 friggen tons, when in all actuality, it can only pull 5 tons, because you had to subtract the weight of the trailer to come up with what you could ACTUALLY tow. Live and learn I guess...

I am also fully aware of the CDL that I am opening myself up to but here is the funny thing....

I told the trailer sales guy that I have a 2004 Chevy 3500 Dually with the Duramax and that I am going to be towing a 6 ton excavator, and he claims I am fine as long as I stay under 19,000lbs. I don't think he is right on that one...but why in the hell would he think that (other than the obvious...to sell another trailer).

BTW...the 3500 is only a short time solution, as I plan to buy a larger truck next year...but I want to get a trailer now while I have the cash. I made a mistake buying not enough trailer last year...I don't want to do that again.

Please help me here...I REALLY need some guidance and all opinions are welcome...even if it hurts my feeelings!

Thanks!

Gravel Rat
03-26-2006, 01:55 AM
No need to hurt anybodys feelings :)

For starters that trailer doesn't even have enough tire rating the axles are rated for 10,000lb each combined 20,000 the tires are only rated for 19,480lbs so 520 short of capacity. You will have to upgrade to LT235/85R16 Michelin XPS Ribs E rating.

I don't know how it can have a 25,900 GVW if the axle rating is only 20,000lbs where does the extra 5000lbs come from you can't put that much pin weight on a 1 ton.

It says 3500lb slipper springs well there is only 4 of them that only gives you a spring capacity of 14,000lbs ?

So ballpark the gvw of the trailer to be 22,000lbs so 20,000lbs on the axles and 2000lbs on the hitch/truck. So the trailer should have a tare weight of 6000lbs so subtract that from 22,000 you have a 16,000lb capacity roughly.

For your needs you can probably get away with a trailer with 14' or 16' of deck space shorter the trailer the better which means lower tare weight.

From the spec's that trailer you are looking at is out of whack.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 02:04 AM
Thanks GR...Aslo, if anyone has suggestions for a good trailer, I'm all ears as well!

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 02:26 AM
where does the extra 5000lbs come from you can't put that much pin weight on a 1 ton.


What do you mean by that quote? Dumb question I know, but what is "pin weight"?

TURF DOCTOR
03-26-2006, 02:29 AM
Is it a 5th wheel or hitch.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 02:29 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7594607773&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1Is this one any better?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2006-20-5EQUIPMENT-TRAILERS-DUALS-RADIAL-TIRES_W0QQitemZ7601160042QQcategoryZ97119QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

Or this one?

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 02:33 AM
Is it a 5th wheel or hitch.
5th wheel and Gooseneck are the same, aren't they...Like I said. I'm in the dark on trailers.

muddstopper
03-26-2006, 02:35 AM
I am pretty sure that if the weight you are towing is 10,001 lbs or greater you have to have a class A cdl. As for the trailer. Your 6 ton excavator is 12000 lbs and you should be fine on the weight issue. I assume that you are getting a goose neck trailer simply because i wouldnt want to pull 6 tons behind a 3500 truck with a trailer ball. With a goose neck, you are placing a lot more of the total weight on the truck. Just because your machine weighs 6 tons doesnt mean all the weight is carried by the trailer axles. Because of the weight transfer onto the truck, your total weigh being towed might be less than 10,001 lbs and you might get by without the CDL, depending on how your state views the laws. Some states ignore GVWs and just weigh the vehicles at the axles. With the trailer hooked to the truck and the machine loaded on the trailer, and due to the weight transfer of part of their weight, you should be less than 10,000 on the trailer axles. Assumeing a weight transfer of 60%, the combined weight of the machine and trailer would be 17,000 lbs. 17,000-60%= 6800lbs. That would mean that 10,200lbs of the total weigh is being carried by the truck. Depending on the weight of the truck which is probably around 6000 lbs your total combined weight would be 23,000 lbs or 3001 lbs under class B cdl requirements. Where you would get in trouble is if you cant get 60% weight tranfer due to the configuration of the equipment requireing you to place the machine weight closer to the rear of the trailer, or if the weight transfer exceeds the total hualing capacity of the truck. 10,200 lbs is 5 tons on the back of a ton truck or a total truck weight of 16,200 lbs. If your truck GVW is only 11,500 you will be over weight on the truck by 4700 lbs. Thats enough that you could get ticketed for. If you place the machine closer to the back of the trailer so that you tranfer the extra 4700 lbs back on the trailer then you will exceed the CDL class A requirement of 10,001 lbs. even tho the total combined weight is only 23000 lbs. You need a class 4 truck to pull what you are trying to pull. A class 4 truck will have a GVW of around 17,000 and allow you to stay under the CDL requirements. That still just allows you about 800lbs of added attachment weight that can be hualed, so if you are planning on a extra bucket or a fuel barrel, or tool box and extra tools, you could still get in trouble with the GVW and CDL issue.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 02:40 AM
I am getting my CDL, so that isnt an issue. I just want a good trailer that I wont outgrow too soon...as I did my last one.

Gravel Rat
03-26-2006, 02:53 AM
I really don't think you will want to have anymore than 2000lbs of pin weight maybe 3000lbs at most you are only dealing with a regular 1 ton. You do have a good chunk of weight on one part of the frame aka over the rear axle.

Say your P/U weighs 7000lbs empty which is a pretty conservative tare weight you will probably weigh 7500lb empty subract that from your gvw that leaves you a payload of 4000lbs. Remember 4000lbs is suppose to be spread out in the bed not concentrated in one spot.

For your 1 ton you probably would want to keep most of the weight on the trailer axles and enough pin weight to keep the trailer connected properly and enough weight on the tires. Not enough weight the trailer could essentially see saw on the trailer axles and lift the truck off the ground :eek:

HK45Mark23
03-26-2006, 04:17 AM
Yeah there is a difference in a fifth wheel and a gooseneck.

The difference is that a goose neck has a ball in the middle of the bed of your truck. The trailer has a goose neck shaped tong, if you will, that hitches to that ball.

Where as a fifth wheel has a plate in the middle of the bed of the truck and the trailer has a pin that hitches to it. With a plate and pin it is really exactly the same concept as a Simi tractor-trailer.

So if you see a ball in the middle of a truck bed that truck is set up for a goose neck.

But if you see a plate resembling a Simi tractor hitch plate, that is a fifth wheeled configuration.

Some trucks have a removable hitch plate and under that is a ball so you can do both.

Some trucks have a hideaway ball, which folds down under the bed so you donít have a ball sticking up unless you need it for hauling a trailer.

Be ware of the hideaway ball, I donít think they are really as strong as a solid mount to the frame.

MMLawn
03-26-2006, 09:33 AM
GET the Kaufman Trailer, just pay the $200 to upgrade the tires and you will be fine with that 6 Ton unit on it. I own six Kaufmans and will NEVER buy any other brand. They simply don't come any better built or designed and have an outstanding price to boot. If you pick it up you will also be VERY impressed at the operation. Very big plant and every single trailer is designed on a CAD by an engineer and every single weld is computer generated and marked. Don't let these guys that don't own one and have never even seen one talk you out of it.

Also on the pulling with the 3500 you should be fine too. My 2005 F350 PSD Dually is rated to pull 23,500. I pull 12,000 all the time at 75mph and you can't even feel it behind you.

MMLawn
03-26-2006, 09:52 AM
It says 3500lb slipper springs well there is only 4 of them that only gives you a spring capacity of 14,000lbs ?

I believe there are doubles on this trailers making it 8 of them.


From the spec's that trailer you are looking at is out of whack.


I doubt in reality it is. This company is owned by a very well respected engineer that has been building trailers for 20+ years and every single design is CAD engineer completed. First hand it is a very impressive company and I have never had any issues with their trailers and I own a few of them.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 10:39 AM
GET the Kaufman Trailer, just pay the $200 to upgrade the tires and you will be fine with that 6 Ton unit on it. I own six Kaufmans and will NEVER buy any other brand. They simply don't come any better built or designed and have an outstanding price to boot. If you pick it up you will also be VERY impressed at the operation. Very big plant and every single trailer is designed on a CAD by an engineer and every single weld is computer generated and marked. Don't let these guys that don't own one and have never even seen one talk you out of it.

Also on the pulling with the 3500 you should be fine too. My 2005 F350 PSD Dually is rated to pull 23,500. I pull 12,000 all the time at 75mph and you can't even feel it behind you.

A buddy of mine recently purchased a 10 ton tag from them and he LOVES it. I will ask about the spring issue, but I sincerely doubt they could/would list a false gvwr.

MMLawn
03-26-2006, 10:47 AM
Yeah, there is no way this company would post false info I assure you.

echovalley
03-26-2006, 11:10 AM
Just got back from picking up my Kaufman trailer on Friday night.Real nice well built trailer and good people to work with.No one could come close to the price in my area.

MMLawn
03-26-2006, 11:18 AM
Nice plant isn't it? I bet going down that turn off road "fooled" you like it did me the first time I was there and I thought, "what the heck" then I came to the end of it :laugh:

echovalley
03-26-2006, 11:36 AM
Yeh it did.I stopped at the gas station a half mile down the road and asking 5 people were it was.No one had ever heard of it?I said its a major manufacture of trailers ,nope never heard of um.People are a little different down there.It was a good trip I stopped and saw some family in Wakeforest

MMLawn
03-26-2006, 11:41 AM
Yeh it did.I stopped at the gas station a half mile down the road and asking 5 people were it was.No one had ever heard of it?I said its a major manufacture of trailers ,nope never heard of um.People are a little different down there.It was a good trip I stopped and saw some family in Wakeforest

Don't worry we feel the same about you folks from "up there" too.... :waving:

They probably actually knew at the gas station, but saw your CT tags and detected that "up there" accent and just told you they didn't know... You probably also said "Excuse me yousguys, could you tell me where the company named Kaufman Trailers is located in proximity to here? And while I'm here I'll have a bottle of pop" instead of just saying, "Hey, ya'll wheres Kaufmans at and where are the cokes" :laugh:


J/K :drinkup:

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 11:50 AM
Thanks again, MM. I will take your advice and upgrade teh tires as well. I was thinking that as long as this trailer will truly carry 10 tons, I should never outgrow it. I will be upgrading my truck, though I may wait a bit if it handles ok.

This message board is AWESOME!

Dirty Water
03-26-2006, 01:31 PM
Doug, what size truck are you upgrading to?

I say that, because it may be more economical to buy a pintle hitch trailer versus a goosneck, especially if your considering a dump in your future.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 02:17 PM
I was hoping that a 5500 would do the trick...dump bed with drop down sides...which is why I think/thought that the gooseneck would be fine. I want to be able to use the truck to carry supplies and not just be a dump truck, So I can kill two birds with one stone...dump when I need...flat bed when I need.

Your thoughts?

bdboss
03-26-2006, 02:49 PM
I've got another question along the same lines. I am looking at a 10k-12k bumper pull deckover trailer. First question will my 6.0 1 ton dumps have any trouble pulling it? Next what are the cdl rules in PA, am I legal under 26k combination? I am looking at either the Kaufmann brand or Appalachian brand trailer. Any thoughts and or experiences with either. Thanks for the help guys.

Dirty Water
03-26-2006, 02:56 PM
I was hoping that a 5500 would do the trick...dump bed with drop down sides...which is why I think/thought that the gooseneck would be fine. I want to be able to use the truck to carry supplies and not just be a dump truck, So I can kill two birds with one stone...dump when I need...flat bed when I need.

Your thoughts?

I'd go with a pintel hitch because there will be times when you want to haul a load of gravel or reject out with your exavator, and you'll save a trip.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 03:00 PM
OK, Jon, but what about now...WIll I still be OK pulling a tag along of that size? I was told that there is an incredible performance difference with the gooseneck over the tag style trailer....

start2finish
03-26-2006, 03:02 PM
5th wheel and Gooseneck are the same, aren't they...Like I said. I'm in the dark on trailers.

goosenecks use a 2 5/16 ball on the tow vehicle and a coupler on the "neck" that reachs 1 inch in front of the rear axle. the most popular hitch on equipmetn trailers and horse trailers. More off road friendly.

fifth wheel hitches use a saddle and jaws similar to a tractor trailer and a king pin on the trailer. they provide less flexibiliy for crossing ditches and such. these are usually seen on campers.

start2finish
03-26-2006, 03:05 PM
OK, Jon, but what about now...WIll I still be OK pulling a tag along of that size? I was told that there is an incredible performance difference with the gooseneck over the tag style trailer....


like muddstopper said the gooseneck will allow more weight to be carried by the tow vehicle. They are more stable and you can jackknife the truck to get in tighter spots. The only drawback is if your truck is down you can only pull your trailer with a gooseneck equipped truck. Also a gooseneck is difficult to use with a dump truck and side boards. this is because of clearance turning.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 03:15 PM
Also a gooseneck is difficult to use with a dump truck and side boards. this is because of clearance turning.

Which is why I was going to get a truck with drop sides. But if the 3500 pulls fine, I could put that purchase off a good bit....

I have been looking, out of curiosity, at new medium duty trucks and if I am reading correctly, the Ford 450/550's are hard to beat.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 03:30 PM
Jon, you just HAD to throw another variable into the "long term" viability debate. I know that goosenck is the way to go today...I just don't know about long term. If I do buy a single axle dump, will I regret the decision to go with a gooseneck? Tough one.

I really DO think I will have an easier time getting my CDL with a gooseneck. As I said before, a buddy of mine recently purchased a 10 ton tag along...perhpas I should try it out a bit (if he will let me) before I pull the trigger. They cost about the same thing....

Man, can ANY of these decisions just be simple and cut and dry?!?!?!?

:dizzy:

start2finish
03-26-2006, 03:33 PM
a 10 ton tagalong is a very heavy trailer. What are you plans on hauling on it. we use a 7 ton gooseneck. as for muddstopper's statement on 10,000 towing making it a CDL requirement. He is from the same state I am, but my understanding is as long as your total GWVR is under 26,000 you are ok. This has been confirmed by enforcement officers and DMV. now if you have a 25,900(rated) truck with a 14,000(rated) trailer hauling a big wheel your are CDL, but if you have a 11,000 gwvr(rated 1 ton) pulling a 14,000 (rated) trailer you are ok. total 25,000

Dirty Water
03-26-2006, 03:39 PM
A goosneck will track and handle far better than a "tag-along" trailer, but all the heavy guys out here use pintle hitch tag alongs for their 10 ton up to 30-40 ton trailers.

I just think that you will be frusterated with a gooseneck once you get your dump.

I also think that while a gooseneck will definitly work better with your one ton, you will be towing way too much regardless, and its going to be scary.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 03:42 PM
OK, Start2finish...truck: 7500lbs (loaded), trailer: 5000lbs, Machine: 12000lbs...total: 24500...room to spare!

start2finish
03-26-2006, 03:55 PM
This will handle things, but you will be at limits. 1,500# isn't lots of room to spare. Also remember that the 7 ton rated trailers are including the trailer weight minus tounge weight. so 17000 gross on trailer, you need to place 3000 on the truck. On this size setup I would hands down reccomend a gooseneck. 3000 tounge weight on a tag-along and this small truck will make it too light on front.

I'm not saying you cannot pull a gooseneck with a dump, but you will have to remove the sides or a section of the sides to accomodate the turning radius.

buy the gooseneck and consider updating your whole setup to a "2 ton" truck and tag-along when money allows.

Gravel Rat
03-26-2006, 03:55 PM
A tag trailer is nicer if you are going to have a dump truck in your future either it be a 2 ton to tandem. You will never beable to haul a pintle hitch tag behind your 1 ton unless you want to make a custom front bumper you can add weight to to keep your front wheels on the ground :laugh:

Even a tandem axle dump will see saw on the trunnion on the suspension if you get enough tounge weight.

If there is some way they can make the front of the trailer adaptable in the future say the goosneck part bolts on so when you do want to convert the trailer to a pintle its doable. You are most definatly going to need a gooseneck to haul the excavator with the P/U to get the hitch weight over the rear axle.

If you upgrade to a larger truck say a 5500 Chev and you use a box with fold down sides you still have the corner posts on the box to get in your way. Also if you run a longer box like a 12' dump you won't have enough reach on your gooseneck to get over the center line of the axle.

Like I meantion if there is a easy way of modifying the front of the trailer so it can be converted to a pintle pull would be good.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 03:57 PM
According to this report, all I can tow is 12,000lbs...

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/chevrolet/silverado3500/100275433/specs.html

How should I read this thing? I know some folks here are towing a lot more than that with a 1 ton with no problems....

Gravel Rat
03-26-2006, 04:02 PM
Its your brakes that are the most important the suspension on the truck can be beefed up to make the truck handle the load better.

With a dual tandem trailer your excavator can pretty much sit over the trailers axles and the truck just pulls it. A dual tandem trailer has pretty good stability.

echovalley
03-26-2006, 06:02 PM
OK, Start2finish...truck: 7500lbs (loaded), trailer: 5000lbs, Machine: 12000lbs...total: 24500...room to spare!
I would go weigh your truck again,my 05 cummins 2500 pickup is 7700lbs empty

mrusk
03-26-2006, 09:24 PM
I have a 05 Ram 2500 cummins, 4X4 regular cab, st. With no tool boxes or anything in the bed, the truck weighs around 7050 with me in it and a full tank of gas.

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 09:31 PM
I was basing that figure off of what I saw on "edmunds.com". You guys may be right...plus I have an 88 gallon transfer tank + toolbox on the back of my truck. Who knows. I really want this trailer...I just don't want it ot cost me a sh*t pot in the long run for being illegal.