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G.M.Landscaping
03-31-2006, 07:02 PM
Do you ever ask for more money after the job is completed? Every now and then I underbid a job. Sometimes it's just on materials, other on just labor. Sometimes both. Most of the time I just eat it if it's not much. Last year I did a job and needed $500 more worth of material and labor. I told the customer I needed more mulch then what I bid. They said no problem , we understand, just add on what is neccesary including the labor. I would of lost big time if they said no.

So I did it again today. Underbid it for 3 more hrs of work. $50 an hour ,so $150.
Would you say something like: Wow that took longer then I was expecting. There was more work then I thought.
See if they bite. Or is this just too unprofessional?

olderthandirt
03-31-2006, 07:04 PM
Or is this just too unprofessional?

You said it nicely!

Madstriper
03-31-2006, 07:05 PM
Im a newbie, just starting out solo, but that, to me, sounds like your problem.
If you presented yourself as a professional, bid the job, and didnt bid enough, I feel like you should eat it and just consider it a lesson learned (OK, Twice).
Live and learn, just remember to learn. You got lucky on the first one last year.
Dont get me wrong, I still am worried about my bidding ability, but, well, I am hoping to learn from everyones mistakes, mine included.

sheshovel
03-31-2006, 07:33 PM
Well I say when you get to the point of where you know it is going to take you longer than you estimated.STOP,,get the customers ok to continue for more $$ .Show them that hey this is where we are and this is what I have left to complete the job.I was off by about this much and this is what it will cost to complete the work..apologize and hope they don't think your trying to rip them off.I always tell my clients it could go a bit more..That's why I bid the job and not by the hour..that way you can pad yourself to take into account situations like that....an estimate is just that,,,,,,,,,, an estimation of the price.

mrusk
03-31-2006, 08:24 PM
How big was the job that you went over 3 hrs? If i went over 2 hrs on a 15k job i really wouldn't worry about it.

I would NEVER ask for more money. You have to eat it till u learn how to bid better! Wait till you get lucky and finish a job early and make like 200 bucks an hour. That really makes your day!

sheshovel
03-31-2006, 08:29 PM
I totally disagree..you do not have to eat it at all.You could put your new business right under before you learn to estimate closely.That is way wrong thinking.

olderthandirt
03-31-2006, 08:33 PM
Well I say when you get to the point of where you know it is going to take you longer than you estimated.STOP,,get the customers ok to continue for more $$ .Show them that hey this is where we are and this is what I have left to complete the job.I was off by about this much and this is what it will cost to complete the work..apologize and hope they don't think your trying to rip them off.I always tell my clients it could go a bit more..That's why I bid the job and not by the hour..that way you can pad yourself to take into account situations like that....an estimate is just that,,,,,,,,,, an estimation of the price.

Sorry She buy if I hire a guy to pour a concrete drive and he can't figure out how much crete he needs thats a lesson. Or I hire a roofer and he can't figure material or time thats a lesson.
And school ain't cheap in this day and age.

Don't take on what you don't know and if you want to learn as you go then you pay the price

JB1
03-31-2006, 08:35 PM
Sorry She buy if I hire a guy to pour a concrete drive and he can't figure out how much crete he needs thats a lesson. Or I hire a roofer and he can't figure material or time thats a lesson.
And school ain't cheap in this day and age.

Don't take on what you don't know and if you want to learn as you go then you pay the price


AMEN brother, say it loud then again.

olderthandirt
03-31-2006, 08:40 PM
AMEN brother, say it loud then again.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

nephilim0167
03-31-2006, 08:46 PM
I agree. You are presenting yourself as a professional and a professional would know how long it's going to take to do a job. There are always exceptions (Maybe they want their mulch a little thicker or they didn't have a certain product etc). However, labor is something that you need to be on top of. 3 hours is a LONG time to go over. Nothing takes 3 hours, soldier! Work a little quicker, take it as a lesson learned, and don't make the mistake you just made again. My .02. However, it is Friday and I do believe this calls for a toast.

:drinkup: CHEERS!

firecapt13
03-31-2006, 09:23 PM
If you finished early would you have given a refund. i would eat it and learn to bid better.

jreiff
03-31-2006, 10:09 PM
Did you figure a fudge factor into the bid for things like this???

You might want to watch your hours alittle more closely next time and when time is running out, kicker in the rear and get going.

Was it just you doing the work or was there other laborers on the job?

Madstriper
03-31-2006, 10:25 PM
This is how mechanics got such a bad reputation.
In my opinion, a BID is you saying "I will do this job for this amount"
If you give an estimate, then you can go back to the customer and then
them know that you were wrong. Now if the customer changed what they
wanted done, again, you could add whatever is necassary to the bid.
I also agree with Firecapt13, are you gonna give a refund if you finish earlier or cheaper than you thought?

sheshovel
03-31-2006, 10:27 PM
Well I say when you get to the point of where you know it is going to take you longer than you estimated.STOP,,get the customers ok to continue for more $$ .Show them that hey this is where we are and this is what I have left to complete the job.I was off by about this much and this is what it will cost to complete the work..apologize and hope they don't think your trying to rip them off.I always tell my clients it could go a bit more..That's why I bid the job and not by the hour..that way you can pad yourself to take into account situations like that....an estimate is just that,,,,,,,,,, an estimation of the price.

I say again

AGLA
03-31-2006, 10:33 PM
Be sure to have a CYA (cover your tail) clause in your contract for those tasks where you run into variables. It is pretty simple to do. Just list out everything that you can quantify and then add that anything not listed is an extra and will be billed as such. That way when you run into the buried 12'x12' slab where you expected to plant a tree, you make money removing it instead of eating it. You do have to quantify as much in the contract as possible, or you will scare your clients. The more high end you are working, the better this is accepted.

This is why plans are a good idea and a detailed contract is as well. That way whenever something goes astray, you are pretty well covered (not like Older than Dirt's new friend).

palawnman
03-31-2006, 10:39 PM
If you finished early would you have given a refund. i would eat it and learn to bid better.

I totally agree with this statement, unless you are willing to start giving out refunds to jobs done faster than estimated, then you have to eat the loss.

Ron

Aadman
03-31-2006, 11:17 PM
I'm a newbie and uderbid my first spring clean-up by about 90 dollars. The client was a 90 year old woman. I chalked it up as a lesson learned. She knew that I underbid it as well and offered more money after I was done. I told her no. It was a lesson learned. IF it had been a 50 year old cusiness exec I probably would have handled it differently.

Since then I have got shot down on a spring cleanup and picked up 6 more. The second one I way overestimated...and more than made up for it. THe rest have been very close to being right at what I estimated.

Current job includes cleanup and mulching....I underestimated the mulching and over estimated the cleanup. I am going to make a profit but it is not much.

I figure I'll get better with time and learn from my mistakes..
http://www.lawnsite.com/images/smilies/drinkup.gif
http://www.lawnsite.com/images/smilies/drinkup.gif
Joe

gammon landscaping
03-31-2006, 11:46 PM
i don't bid much unless i it is just really small or i am very confertable with the job ie simple task that have done a million times. no two jobs are the same. so what worked for one maynot work for the other. stick with estiments they are the safe bet for small guys just starting out. with estamates you can twist then up some and if you come in way under you can get some great advertizing when come in under budget. i alway try to pad may estamates so that i can have play room and if all goes well the custumer just became my speaking billboard for what a great guy i am

olderthandirt
04-01-2006, 12:53 AM
i don't bid much unless i it is just really small or i am very confertable with the job ie simple task that have done a million times. no two jobs are the same. so what worked for one maynot work for the other. stick with estiments they are the safe bet for small guys just starting out. with estamates you can twist then up some and if you come in way under you can get some great advertizing when come in under budget. i alway try to pad may estamates so that i can have play room and if all goes well the custumer just became my speaking billboard for what a great guy i am

How do you expect a customer to decide they want you to do the work with an estimate only? 10 k job could turn into a 20 k job and then its a legal mess.
You have to give a price and be ready to stick to it. Contracts are designed for this, if you discover any unforseen obstruction or other problem that prevent the job from being done in a timely mammer then you get a change of work order signed by the customer. And have that stated in your contract

bigjeeping
04-01-2006, 01:01 AM
I always go with the first large number that pops into my mind. With cleanups it is always hard to estimate the job by the hour because there are so many factors.....
To name a few:
Windy days and leaves are flying everywhere! :cry:
Compacted wet leaves underneath what appeared to be a small pile of dry leaves
Blowing out under bushes/shrubs and suddenly you have a 5 foot pile from under there!

My theory.. just go with the big number! If they can afford to call a lawn service they can afford your rate!

sheshovel
04-01-2006, 01:42 AM
Now THAT is a pricing method I haven't tried yet!LOL
Very professional ..how do you know your not screwing yourself?
After the job do you just sit down and see if it is sore?

Green-Pro
04-01-2006, 01:44 AM
Sorry She buy if I hire a guy to pour a concrete drive and he can't figure out how much crete he needs thats a lesson. Or I hire a roofer and he can't figure material or time thats a lesson.
And school ain't cheap in this day and age.

Don't take on what you don't know and if you want to learn as you go then you pay the price

Agreed, How the he!! can you bid a job without knowing what your costs are, all of them.

Add to that somebody else mentioned the oops %age of the bid. I'd rather lose a few jobs because someone thinks my prices are to high than get them all working for nothing.
Oh yeah, I do think it is unprofessional to go back and ask for more money, is this a regular thing you need to do?

LandscapePro
04-01-2006, 08:26 PM
Agreed, How the he!! can you bid a job without knowing what your costs are, all of them.

It's easy...... Don't do "bid" work.

Everything is an estimate. Yes, always apply the "oops factor %" into the estimate and leave plenty of room.

In case of problems the homeowner is made aware as soon as they may arise and makes the decision as to how much money to throw at 'em as needed.

The job comes in under budget, the customer is happy and all his/her buddies know you finished the job for less than what they had planned.



Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

olderthandirt
04-01-2006, 08:32 PM
It's easy...... Don't do "bid" work.

Everything is an estimate. Yes, always apply the "oops factor %" into the estimate and leave plenty of room.

In case of problems the homeowner is made aware as soon as they may arise and makes the decision as to how much money to throw at 'em as needed.

The job comes in under budget, the customer is happy and all his/her buddies know you finished the job for less than what they had planned.



Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

That must have been why the levee failed. The contractors estimated the cost and when they ran over budget the work stopped :confused::dizzy:
While your giving a maybe price to a customer I'll be next door giving a firm price to the neighbor and I bet I sign 10 times the work. Not many people sign a blank check

YardPro
04-01-2006, 09:20 PM
sounds like you have a problem estimating your time on jobs...
i would say that asking for more $ is unprofessional. It is different if you run into circumstances you could not have known about.

would you be upset if you called a few auto repair places and asked about some work, then you take it to a place becuase they were a little less expensive, then go to get your car and they tell you...sorry but we thought it would take X hrs, but the guy estimating is new and underpriced the work... it should have been X dollars... so that's what we need.....

LandscapePro
04-01-2006, 09:27 PM
That must have been why the levee failed. The contractors estimated the cost and when they ran over budget the work stopped :confused::dizzy:
While your giving a maybe price to a customer I'll be next door giving a firm price to the neighbor and I bet I sign 10 times the work. Not many people sign a blank check


Nah...... I've been doing it this way for over 30 years and stay booked up 10 to 12 weeks out. The waiting list hasn't been cleared in the last five years.

There's not a "blank check" asked for... or given. I'm darn good at knowing what it will take to accomplish the job and always include a bit extra just to make sure.

My final invoice is always under the estimated cost. That is unless the homeowner wants to make changes along the way.

PS. The levees failed due to the block voting of Orleans parish keeping the democrats in power here for the last 60 years. They had "other things" to do with some of the money... It will take some time to undo the damage done, but with the 900 lb. gorilla known as Orleans parish gone it will happen.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

olderthandirt
04-01-2006, 09:39 PM
There's not a "blank check" asked for... or given. I'm darn good at knowing what it will take to accomplish the job and always include a bit extra just to make sure.

My final invoice is always under the estimated cost. That is unless the homeowner wants to make changes along the way.

No way! you even said you only give an estimate which means no set price. So if your so good at knowing what it will take why not just put it down? If your final invoice is always under the estimated cost that means I can come in knowing my cost and give a firm price probably less than yours, or how else can you come in under your estimates except to jack the price up . No one takes a probably gonna cost over a set price. After almost 30 yrs you should know that.

LandscapePro
04-01-2006, 10:21 PM
Yes Way....... :)

Plant material running larger than normal, takes less plants, cost goes down a bit. Plant material running a bit small this time, will take a few more that drawn, costs goes up slightly. We're not talking widgets here but live goods. Things do vary. Do they vary by huge amounts? No, they do vary from time to time.

I sell jobs like this on a consistent basis due to the fact that I'm known for doing flawless work and doing it for less than we'd planned. People know the job will be done right ( with a 1 year guarantee) and for "pretty darn close" to what has been estimated or less. I start a project Monday for a lady that's been waiting for me to get to her for 4 months. It would surprise you just how many "firm priced jobs" I'm called to tear out and re work.

I'm never the lowest priced guy. The people I work for aren't looking for "lowest bid". They're looking for higest quality, custom designed work by someone with my level of experience.

First rule of sales....Always "over deliver on any project".



Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

allinearth
04-02-2006, 11:23 AM
Most contractors of any kind will cut corners to stay profitable. So....if the "firm" price is short they will find a way. I would rather give and receive estimates so I can do the job correctly or get a job done without cut corners. Just don't give estimate for 1000 and bill final for 2000. I do custom work, every job is different. I only give firm prices on very straight forward jobs like sod laying, etc.

Evergreenpros
04-02-2006, 06:55 PM
Do you ever ask for more money after the job is completed? Every now and then I underbid a job. Sometimes it's just on materials, other on just labor. Sometimes both. Most of the time I just eat it if it's not much. Last year I did a job and needed $500 more worth of material and labor. I told the customer I needed more mulch then what I bid. They said no problem , we understand, just add on what is neccesary including the labor. I would of lost big time if they said no.

So I did it again today. Underbid it for 3 more hrs of work. $50 an hour ,so $150.
Would you say something like: Wow that took longer then I was expecting. There was more work then I thought.
See if they bite. Or is this just too unprofessional?


A bid or an estimate is not a contractual agreement. Most people don't understand contractual law. To be a VALID contract you have to have an EXCHANGE or the promise of EXCHANGE of something of value, whether it be goods and services, money, good will, or the like.

Here's the way the law works. If you bid a $5,000 job and the customer says "ok do it" and that's the ONLY agreement made, the following could happen and would be completely within the law.

1. You take 15 years to complete the job
2. You work for 1 minute and require payment to finish
3. You subcontract out everything to illegal immigrant convicts who are level 3 sex offenders.
4. You work for 1 minute and tell the customer you need an additional $15,000,000 because of inflation in Zimbabwe, not to mention the price of rice in China.

In other words, THERE IS NO CONTRACT!!! Therefore there is no CONTRACT to provide goods and services for a predetermined price. It's a handshake, non-binding, agreement between two people that would be thrown out in every court in this country. So why oh why do companies eat $1,000's because of a small mistake in the beginning?????? Stupid business practices!!!! If you can call it a "business practice".

In addition, if you "agree" to provide $1,000 in landscape services to the customer and halfway through you tell them you need another $500, guess what? If they tell you to "stick it" they still owe you for half of the $1,000!!!! Since there was not CONTRACT stating the job had to be completed in order for the exchange of something of value to take place. Therefore the court would award you $500, they would still not have their work done and probably have to start from scratch.

So why again do we eat $1000's? Lack of knowledge.

mrusk
04-02-2006, 07:25 PM
For the people who said to its ok to ask for more money get real! If my roofer screwed up i'd laugh at him.

WE ARE ALL SUPPOSE TO BE PROFFESIONALS! You need to act like one. Most of my jobs are installs, hardscapes mostly. Going over 3 hrs is no big deal at all for my company. I try to price my jobs out at around 70 an hour. I rountinely end up at 80-90 an hour since i finshed the job quickly.

sheshovel
04-02-2006, 07:47 PM
mrusk..whaat if you were excavating for a wall and found an old road underneath that had to be removed?Or a bunch of huge peices of cement that had to be taken out with a crane..like one of our members ran into on a job he was doing at a lake home for a wall..you going to pay for that crane and removal of those cement blocks..you had no way of knowing were there?..you going to jackhammer that old asphault out and remove the debri for free?No your going to have to ask for more money because of unforseen extra work required to complete the work .

mrusk
04-02-2006, 08:09 PM
Unforseen extra work is covered in my contract!

I belive the orignal thread starter was talking about under estimating his labor time, not talking about unforseen work. Such as taking 3 hrs longer to trim 10 shrubs than he expected. There is nothing unforseen about that.

olderthandirt
04-02-2006, 08:27 PM
Unforseen extra work is covered in my contract!

I belive the orignal thread starter was talking about under estimating his labor time, not talking about unforseen work. Such as taking 3 hrs longer to trim 10 shrubs than he expected. There is nothing unforseen about that.

And that is why you always have a contract and not a handshake agreement
And in a contract is a firm price, not an estimated price range. Two completly differnt things

chriscraft
04-02-2006, 09:01 PM
I think it depends on the customer. We jsut did 2 commercial buildings and i est 12 yards on 1 building like 30 areas and 3 yards on the other, i used 4 more on top of that. i told him the probelm, explained that we arent taking advantage of him, and gave him a discount because we are rennovating the property, preening, trimming shrubs, so he said do what yuo have to do to make it presentable. He happens to own the building our company leases so that made it a little easier. I think here it so wet still the mulch is compacted and doesnt cover as well, it weighs a ton and packs tight (not fluffy) so maybe early spring the coverage isnt as good, or they ripped me off at the landscape yard lol

drsogr
04-02-2006, 09:41 PM
I usually don't ask for more money. The only time that I ever ask for more is sodding. I swear I can never get the numbers right. I esimate it as
750 sq. yards for ....... If I am over I take it home....if I am under I ask for the customer to pay for materials....they shouldn't have to pay for the extra labor.

LandscapePro
04-02-2006, 11:39 PM
And that is why you always have a contract and not a handshake agreement
And in a contract is a firm price, not an estimated price range. Two completly differnt things

Not Always......


Witnesseth, that the Contractor and the Owner for the consideration names as follows:

Article 1. Scope of the Work
The Contractor shall furnish all of the materials and perform all of the work shown on the Drawings and/or described in the Specifications entitled Exhibit A, as annexed hereto as it pertains to work to be performed on property located in XXXXXXX, Arkansas. Be it known and agreed to by both Contractor and Owner, due to the variations in the overall size of plant material in like containers and availability of specific plant material at the time of actual installation, quantities of plant material required to execute the approved design and in some cases specific cultivars are subject to change. Under the terms of this Landscape Contractor Agreement the Owner grants the Contractor the authority to make such changes as required, so long as the changes are in keeping with the overall design (VER0985) as submitted to and approved by the Owner.

Article 2. Time of Completion
The work to be performed under this Contract shall be commenced on or before January 1, 2006 and shall be substantially completed on or before March 5, 2006 as weather conditions permit. Time is of the essence. The following constitutes substantial commencement of work pursuant to this proposal and contract: Installation of additional topsoil and leveling to to finished grade; Execution of bed layout as shown per Landscape Plan (VER0985) and installation of materials required for soil amendment; as well as the installation of main irrigation lines as shown per Landscape Plan (VER0985). Completion shall constitute the execution of Landscape Plan (VER0895) along with any authorized change orders and the jobsite cleared of any and all unused materials supplied by the contractor. Contractor is not responsible for cleaning of concrete other than washing down all concrete areas with available water pressure.


Article 3. The Contract Price
The Owner shall pay the Contractor for the materials and labor to be performed under the Contract the sum total of the final invoice for Landscape Services rendered, subject to additions and deductions pursuant only to an authorized change order. The price noted in the Landscape Estimate is an Estimated Dollar Value required to execute Landscape Plan (VER0985). This estimated price is NOT a Bid, however, this dollar figure shall change only by the sum total of all authorized change orders.

Article 4. Progress Payments
Payments of the Contract Price shall be paid in the manner following: Initial Deposit of $10,000.00 (Ten Thousand Dollars ) is due upon sigining of this Contract. Progress payment of $21,000.00 (Twenty One Thousand Dollars ) shall be paid upon substantial commencement of work to be performed under this contract. Balance due noted on the Final Invoice shall be paid on the Day of Completion.

Article 5. General Provisions
Any alteration or deviation from the above specifications, including but not limited to any such alterations of deviation involving additional material and/or labor costs, will be executed only upon written change order for same, signed by Owner and Contractor, and if there is any charge for such alteration or deviation, the additional charge will be added to the contract price of this contract. Authorized Change Orders shall be paid upon approval and prior to execution. If payment is not made when due, Contractor may suspend work on the job until such time as all payments due have been made. A failure to make payments for a period in excess of 5 days from the due date of the payment shall be deemed a material breach of this contract.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

dkeisala
04-02-2006, 11:49 PM
I don't do many installs and the ones we do are pretty small but I don't seem to bid them right. Just found myself in this exact situation. My pride won't allow me to ask for more money and I feel it's my responsibility to bid right and not the customers responsibility to cough up more cash. I either need to stop doing installs or learn to estimate properly, period.

I feel estimates allow for wiggle room only when something unexpected pops up or something extra is requested by the client. I do put a clause in that allows for 10% overage, other than that, I eat it. I don't want to get in the habit of telling myself "oh well, if you don't bid it right, you can always ask for more." I think that makes people feel suckered into hiring you in the first place. The best lessons in life are those hardest taught.

olderthandirt
04-03-2006, 12:27 AM
Not Always......


Witnesseth, that the Contractor and the Owner for the consideration names as follows:

Article 1. Scope of the Work
The Contractor shall furnish all of the materials and perform all of the work shown on the Drawings and/or described in the Specifications entitled Exhibit A, as annexed hereto as it pertains to work to be performed on property located in XXXXXXX, Arkansas. Be it known and agreed to by both Contractor and Owner, due to the variations in the overall size of plant material in like containers and availability of specific plant material at the time of actual installation, quantities of plant material required to execute the approved design and in some cases specific cultivars are subject to change. Under the terms of this Landscape Contractor Agreement the Owner grants the Contractor the authority to make such changes as required, so long as the changes are in keeping with the overall design (VER0985) as submitted to and approved by the Owner.

Article 2. Time of Completion
The work to be performed under this Contract shall be commenced on or before January 1, 2006 and shall be substantially completed on or before March 5, 2006 as weather conditions permit. Time is of the essence. The following constitutes substantial commencement of work pursuant to this proposal and contract: Installation of additional topsoil and leveling to to finished grade; Execution of bed layout as shown per Landscape Plan (VER0985) and installation of materials required for soil amendment; as well as the installation of main irrigation lines as shown per Landscape Plan (VER0985). Completion shall constitute the execution of Landscape Plan (VER0895) along with any authorized change orders and the jobsite cleared of any and all unused materials supplied by the contractor. Contractor is not responsible for cleaning of concrete other than washing down all concrete areas with available water pressure.


Article 3. The Contract Price
The Owner shall pay the Contractor for the materials and labor to be performed under the Contract the sum total of the final invoice for Landscape Services rendered, subject to additions and deductions pursuant only to an authorized change order. The price noted in the Landscape Estimate is an Estimated Dollar Value required to execute Landscape Plan (VER0985). This estimated price is NOT a Bid, however, this dollar figure shall change only by the sum total of all authorized change orders.

Article 4. Progress Payments
Payments of the Contract Price shall be paid in the manner following: Initial Deposit of $10,000.00 (Ten Thousand Dollars ) is due upon sigining of this Contract. Progress payment of $21,000.00 (Twenty One Thousand Dollars ) shall be paid upon substantial commencement of work to be performed under this contract. Balance due noted on the Final Invoice shall be paid on the Day of Completion.

Article 5. General Provisions
Any alteration or deviation from the above specifications, including but not limited to any such alterations of deviation involving additional material and/or labor costs, will be executed only upon written change order for same, signed by Owner and Contractor, and if there is any charge for such alteration or deviation, the additional charge will be added to the contract price of this contract. Authorized Change Orders shall be paid upon approval and prior to execution. If payment is not made when due, Contractor may suspend work on the job until such time as all payments due have been made. A failure to make payments for a period in excess of 5 days from the due date of the payment shall be deemed a material breach of this contract.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Whats your point? The price is firm unless you have a change of work order, As it states in the contract. The price noted in the Landscape Estimate is an Estimated Dollar Value required to execute Landscape Plan (VER0985). This estimated price is NOT a Bid, however, this dollar figure shall change only by the sum total of all authorized change orders.
So no change order and your estimate just became a firm bid!

LandscapePro
04-03-2006, 01:47 AM
The point is that you stated : "And in a contract is a firm price," and that isn't always the case as I've shown.

And No, my estimate doesn't transform into a "bid". Look up the legal definition of the term "bid".

What you see is a portion of a contract that has no "firm price". Item # 6 under Article 5 makes this clear.

6. All authorized change orders shall be in writing and signed both by Owner and Contractor, and shall be incorporated in, and become part of the contract. Exception: * Deviations in plant materials as described and agreed to in Article 1. Scope of the Work shall be considered an authorized change order and do not require additional approval by Owner.

I have an "authorized change order" written into the contract to be used as needed. The "estimate" remains just that.


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

olderthandirt
04-03-2006, 02:52 AM
The point is that you stated : "And in a contract is a firm price," and that isn't always the case as I've shown.

And No, my estimate doesn't transform into a "bid". Look up the legal definition of the term "bid".

What you see is a portion of a contract that has no "firm price". Item # 6 under Article 5 makes this clear.

6. All authorized change orders shall be in writing and signed both by Owner and Contractor, and shall be incorporated in, and become part of the contract. Exception: * Deviations in plant materials as described and agreed to in Article 1. Scope of the Work shall be considered an authorized change order and do not require additional approval by Owner.

I have an "authorized change order" written into the contract to be used as needed. The "estimate" remains just that.


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

All you did was scan a part of your contract, and can do the same thing and mine, says the same. I have the right to make changes according to availability etc. etc.
Now try substituting $5k in plants for the $10K the specs call for and see where it gets you. 2 things $5k less or a breach of contract.
Once both parties sign it becomes a binding contract with a firm price and if you believe its still only an estimate why would anyone require a change of work order?
I've wasted enough time on this so you can have the last word

Paradise Landscapes
04-03-2006, 10:02 AM
Here is one thing I add into my contracts that hasn't been memtioned.


Has anyone been adding contingency?
Although I over bid most of my jobs, I make enough money where I need to be. I add in contingency. If I don't need it, I return that money back to the customer. I tell the client that I add contingency in there that way if I may need more money than anticipated, it is there. If I don't need it, It's refunded.

LandscapePro
04-03-2006, 11:06 AM
All you did was scan a part of your contract, and can do the same thing and mine, says the same. I have the right to make changes according to availability etc. etc.
Now try substituting $5k in plants for the $10K the specs call for and see where it gets you. 2 things $5k less or a breach of contract.
Once both parties sign it becomes a binding contract with a firm price and if you believe its still only an estimate why would anyone require a change of work order?
I've wasted enough time on this so you can have the last word


olderthandirt,

It's clear this whole thread rubbed you the wrong way back in your post # 7.

Without going to the trouble of the quote button thing......

In your post # 19 you stated: "You have to give a price and be ready to stick to it. Contracts are designed for this"

I point out to Green-Pro the fact that not everyone does "bid work" in post # 23.

You suggest in your post # 24 that you'll would be able to do 10 times the work I do by "bidding" jobs.

I don't know exactly what set you off in my post # 26... Hmmm, might have been the PS...not sure.

Your post # 27 again makes a blanket statement that: "No one takes a probably gonna cost over a set price.", which I prove not to be the case all the time. I explain to you the "why" in my post # 28.

You make another blanket statement in your post # 34 responding to mrusk that I prove not to be the case in my post # 37 by posting a portion of my contract.

You ask "What's your point?" in your post # 39 and make the statement that my contract transforms itself into a "bid" unless there is a change order. Still haven't looked up the definition of a bid, I take it.

I've proven your concepts of "you have to give a firm price and be ready to stick to it" and "that in a contract is a firm price" not to be true by showing you a portion of my contract.

While you might consider a 50% reduction in plant material something that happens on a job, I LMAO when I read your statement: "Now try substituting $5k in plants for the $10K the specs call for and see where it gets you. 2 things $5k less or a breach of contract." in your post # 41. By the way.. I'm the one writing the specs in every case.

You are correct in the fact that once both parties sign it becomes a binding contract. I've proven clearly that this doesn't equate to either a "firm price" or a bid in more than one post in this thread.

I won't have the "last word" as you put it, for I'm sure this discussion will continue.

However OTD, you have had the last word as far as I'm concerned. You're now one of a select group of people here that now live in the world of "Ignore". I'm sure the discussions taking place there are a laugh riot. Make sure and tell TheHotShotKid that he/she (nobody is sure) is no longer the newbie there. Don't worry, you won't hold that title for long either I'm sure.


Mike
Landscape Contractor #2576