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eskerlite
04-10-2006, 10:03 PM
Does anyone use mainly Tin coated wire?

TheHotShotKid
04-10-2006, 11:25 PM
What is the benefit?:sleeping:

SamIV
04-11-2006, 12:25 AM
I use the CAST tin coated wire. The benefit is if the sheath ever gets nicked or cut the wire will not corrode due to moisture. I'm sure Steve has lots of input on this issue.

Sam IV
Accent Outdoor Lighting

eskerlite
04-11-2006, 07:43 AM
tin coated wire is less corrosion resistant than bare cooper when installed below ground. Above ground, tin coated wire is more corrosion resistant. Both 0f these findings assume that the wire is exposed to the elements. When splices are done correctly( e.g. no exposed wire) there is very little, if any, difference in thier corrosive attributes.
Tin coated 12awg/2c low voltage cable has 7.7% greater resistance (ohms/1000ft.) than the same gauge bare copper wire (source: UL 1581, Table 30.10). Therefore tin coated wire experiences greater voltage drop than bare copper wire at the same distance. Tin is simply not as good an electrical conducter as copper.
Tin coated wire is much better than bare copper wire when soldering splices.
Tin coated wire is stiffer and consequently less flexible than bare copper.
Tin coated wire is 5% to 10% more expensive than bare copper wire.

NightScenes
04-11-2006, 09:34 AM
tin coated wire is less corrosion resistant than bare cooper when installed below ground. Above ground, tin coated wire is more corrosion resistant. Both 0f these findings assume that the wire is exposed to the elements. When splices are done correctly( e.g. no exposed wire) there is very little, if any, difference in thier corrosive attributes.
Tin coated 12awg/2c low voltage cable has 7.7% greater resistance (ohms/1000ft.) than the same gauge bare copper wire (source: UL 1581, Table 30.10). Therefore tin coated wire experiences greater voltage drop than bare copper wire at the same distance. Tin is simply not as good an electrical conducter as copper.
Tin coated wire is much better than bare copper wire when soldering splices.
Tin coated wire is stiffer and consequently less flexible than bare copper.
Tin coated wire is 5% to 10% more expensive than bare copper wire.

I think my problem with tin coated is the resistance. 7.7% is a lot more drop, meaning having to use heavier wire to do the same job.

TheHotShotKid
04-11-2006, 09:50 AM
What good is it then?

TheHotShotKid
04-11-2006, 09:55 AM
anyone ever look into gold plated wire?

Frog Lights, LLC
04-11-2006, 12:32 PM
I sold this item when I was in the electronics business. It does not cost much more than the other wire but it was a huge profit item. We sold "Monster Cable". Maybe we will look into this for lighting. I like this idea, but the factories are not set up for this. Really normal low voltage direct burial wire is all you need. I will not make any comment about tin coated wire.

steveparrott
04-11-2006, 01:38 PM
You're right, I do have something to say about tin-coated wire.

Some of what eskerlite says is not true. (Note - I've seen this exact text in a letter from a wire mfg who tries to dissuade people from tin-coated because he doesn't sell it!) I'll address his points one at a time:

eskerlite: "tin coated wire is less corrosion resistant than bare cooper when installed below ground."

Not true, the thinking behind this comment is that the soil chemicals induce a current between the tin and copper causing corrosion – that would only happen if the copper were exposed - as long as the coating is intact, the copper is not exposed. Hence, tin-coated is more corrosion resistant below ground.

eskerlite: "Above ground, tin coated wire is more corrosion resistant."

True.

eskerlite: "Both 0f these findings assume that the wire is exposed to the elements. When splices are done correctly( e.g. no exposed wire) there is very little, if any, difference in thier corrosive attributes."

You're neglecting to consider wicking. Water will migrate from the splice point under the insulation for quite a distance. If you pull a copper fixture wire that's been buried for some time and strip back the insulation, you'll see the copper has oxidized (turned black) for many feet away from the fixture. This oxidation significantly increases wire resistance and will continue to degrade through the years.

eskerlite: "Tin coated 12awg/2c low voltage cable has 7.7% greater resistance (ohms/1000ft.) than the same gauge bare copper wire (source: UL 1581, Table 30.10). Therefore tin coated wire experiences greater voltage drop than bare copper wire at the same distance. Tin is simply not as good an electrical conducter as copper."

True, it's a trade off - slightly greater resistance that stays the same over time vs. slightly lower resistance that increases over time.

eskerlite: "Tin coated wire is much better than bare copper wire when soldering splices."

True and important.

eskerlite: "Tin coated wire is stiffer and consequently less flexible than bare copper."

True (on paper) but we don't see a noticable difference in stiffness between copper and tin-coated 10/2 and 12/2.

eskerlite: "Tin coated wire is 5% to 10% more expensive than bare copper wire."

That's about $10 to $20 for a 500ft. spool – a fair deal for improved system integrity and a persuasive selling point!

TheHotShotKid
04-11-2006, 10:54 PM
just like motor oil is motor oil no matter the brand and gasoline is gasoline no matter the brand. Copper stranded wire is copper stranded wire no matter the manufacturer. Jackets (thickness, pliability etc.) may vary but that's a different story. The strand count and thickness must be consistent for gauge rating. Don't believe this mumbo jumbo about "monster cable" , tin wire etc. it's just plain marketing geared at making larger profits for those that sell it. You take a product put it in a plain box. Take the same product and put it in a fancy box and you will have people that will swear that the product from the fancy box is superior and will never believe otherwise. there is a sucker born every minute. It takes one to know one (Even though I think I just insulted myself):dizzy:

steveparrott
04-12-2006, 09:52 AM
Tin coated wire is known as marine grade and is required by UL and NEC for certain marine applications because of its resistance to corrosion. I'd say marketing has nothing to do with their decisions.

TheHotShotKid
04-12-2006, 09:58 AM
Let me qualify my post. When being offered for sale for landscape lighting purposes. I'd say it has all to do with marketing and perception.:dancing:

steveparrott
04-12-2006, 02:27 PM
I still stand on my points. In my position here, I can unequivicably state that our recommendations on tin-coated wire have nothing to do with trying to make an extra few bucks. We did the research, consulted the experts and came up with the best possible wire for landscape lighting. It's that simple.

Pro-Scapes
04-26-2006, 12:13 AM
10/2 no ox tin coated cast wire at my dist is 2.5% more than 10/2 500 ft copper from my local WHOLESALE electrical dist.

definatly worth the piece of mind in using the best gear i can find. Charge accordingly and do the job right. Cutting corners + call backs = lost profit = less cash in my pocket at the end of the year. Its true in any business not just lighting. 2.5% is nothing to avoid all this.

NightScenes
04-27-2006, 09:17 AM
I'm not sold on the tin coated wire. My issue is the conductivity. Voltage drop can be a good thing at times but not very often. I just don't see paying more for wire that, if everything is done correctly, is no better, if not worse (conductivity) than copper wire.

desert night light
04-27-2006, 07:39 PM
with Paul, this sounds like some snake oil that's being sold.

NightScenes
04-27-2006, 08:16 PM
I wouldn't call it snake oil. CAST makes a very good product but I just feel that the tin coating might be a little (too much of a good thing) thing, if you know what I mean.

desert night light
04-27-2006, 09:44 PM
I just feel that the tin coating might be a little (too much of a good thing) thing, if you know what I mean.

No, what do you mean?

NightScenes
04-27-2006, 10:09 PM
What I mean is, why use marine grade wire for everything? I don't use #8 wire if I'm only putting a 100 watt load, 100' from the transformer. It would mean that I have less voltage drop, but I just don't see the need in going that far. Marine grade wire might be great for corrosion, but if all connections are sealed well and there are no cuts in the line, why use it for non marine uses?

OK?

Man, I'm bad at trying to explain stuff like this!!

desert night light
04-27-2006, 10:14 PM
understood

eskerlite
04-28-2006, 11:35 PM
Its the wire to use if you soldier your splices.

Pro-Scapes
04-29-2006, 01:16 AM
If you properly design and install your systems you should still be fine with the extra voltage drop. Who knows what thier landscaper or irrigation guy or even the homeowner will do after you leave. No one thinks before they dig in thier flowerbeds and 80% or more of the landscapers i know would just tape up or rebury a nicked wire as they think the customer would be ticked off.

If i was going to plow in a really long run i might consider copper but i like what we get now.

NightScenes
04-29-2006, 11:44 AM
Billy, if the wire gets nicked, tin coated or not, it is going to corrode. I'm never fine with more voltage drop. What if a client wants to add a couple of fixtures on a run? If the tin coated wire can't handle the extra wattage, you would have to run another line. Sometimes too much is just too much.

desert night light
04-29-2006, 06:30 PM
Tin coated just doesn't make sense, the extra cost is not justifiable

Moonlightman
01-18-2010, 09:51 PM
sorry its taken so long to see this post.... I agree that Cast No-Ox wire is better. The proof is in the pudding. Why not give your homeowners a quality wire and educate them on how it holds up under extreme humid temps? In florida, bare-jacketed copper wire tends to srhink and harden. This could create opportunity for moisture. I dont care who installs it....they have some kind of moisture in their splices. Ill bet that my system will stand stronger for many many more years than those that use bare copper circuits.

David Gretzmier
01-18-2010, 11:45 PM
wow, this thread was nearly 4 years old. I have seen other threads over the past 3 years that talked about tin coated wire. surprised someone resurrected it on thier first post.

other thoughts- reading through this old post, I see guys that used to be on here that have moved on. I remember paul from nightscenes ( formerly nightscapes? and they made HIM drop the name ) and I remember proscapes and eskerlite as well. where have these guys gone?

and I guess more to the point of the thread, if tin coated wire was so wonderful, why hasn't it taken over the low voltage world in 4 years? probably because good connections trump the increased cost.

Mark B
01-18-2010, 11:58 PM
David, I think that most that use to be here. Got tired of the mess that goes on at times. I have not seen Paul post much if any in a while. I thought I saw Proscapes post back in the summer (maybe). I am going to blame James on the reason not many post here anymore. LOL Teasing.

Oh back to the thread. I use to the tin coated wire. But now I just regular wire now.

RLI Electric
01-19-2010, 08:44 AM
Lets change it up a bit, how about Q wire?

Terradek
01-19-2010, 11:18 AM
Bobby,
Q wire by Qtran...is specifically designed to work with their Direct Bury Qvault transformers. What is unique about this wire is that it is flat...i.e. no grove down the center. This design was developed to eliminate gaps in the ingress and egress ports of the transformer. When combined with the Q click fittings the systems provides an IP 68 rated enclosure.

Beyond that the wire is much like any other...more money, but in combination with the Qvault system it is one of the most water tight systems on the market.

For more info. check out www.Q-tran.com

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-19-2010, 06:02 PM
Bobby,
Q wire by Qtran...is specifically designed to work with their Direct Bury Qvault transformers. What is unique about this wire is that it is flat...i.e. no grove down the center. This design was developed to eliminate gaps in the ingress and egress ports of the transformer. When combined with the Q click fittings the systems provides an IP 68 rated enclosure.

Beyond that the wire is much like any other...more money, but in combination with the Qvault system it is one of the most water tight systems on the market.

For more info. check out www.Q-tran.com

Gerry and all... there is another major difference between Q-Wire and all others. It's jacket is rated to 105c + direct burial. It carries UL certification for use in direct burial applications as well as for use inside and on structures. This makes it rather versatile for wiring circuits that feed fixtures located in and on structures. Now if only they could get the cost of it down below its current stratospheric levels.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-19-2010, 06:06 PM
Oh back to the thread. I use to the tin coated wire. But now I just regular wire now.

I really don't think that Tin Coated wire is necessary if you are making proper connections. The extra cost is prohibitive and it is completely unruly to deal with in cold temperatures.

David Gretzmier
01-20-2010, 06:50 AM
water tight trans wire? I guess this would be for an in-ground trans. all the trans I insatll are on walls and are vented on the bottom or are hardly water tight. I would say very weather resistant.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-20-2010, 07:34 AM
water tight trans wire? I guess this would be for an in-ground trans. all the trans I insatll are on walls and are vented on the bottom or are hardly water tight. I would say very weather resistant.

The Q-tran system is designed around transformers and components that are installed below grade. It is very slick. It is also an ultra premium system. Check it out sometime.
Posted via Mobile Device

David Gretzmier
01-21-2010, 11:32 PM
I have seen quite a few q tran 24 volt trans on ebay. I have not seen one close up. they do have a cool logo.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 01:26 AM
I have seen quite a few q tran 24 volt trans on ebay. I have not seen one close up. they do have a cool logo.

Q-Tran makes a lot of different transformers. You have probably seen some of their interior products. Go to their website and check out the Q-Scape Line... It really is beyond comparison.

http://www.q-tran.com/outdoor-product-overview/

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 01:28 AM
For those of you interested in super premium wire... Check this out:

http://q-tran.squarespace.com/q-wire/

RLI Electric
01-22-2010, 07:42 AM
I believe Q wire is also one of the only landscape lighting wires that is permitted to be run inside a dwelling. Most of them are not as I recall. I don't have the code book with me to show where but I will see if I can reference it.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 09:36 AM
Gerry and all... there is another major difference between Q-Wire and all others. It's jacket is rated to 105c + direct burial. It carries UL certification for use in direct burial applications as well as for use inside and on structures. This makes it rather versatile for wiring circuits that feed fixtures located in and on structures. Now if only they could get the cost of it down below its current stratospheric levels.

I believe Q wire is also one of the only landscape lighting wires that is permitted to be run inside a dwelling. Most of them are not as I recall. I don't have the code book with me to show where but I will see if I can reference it.

Bob... no need to reference it. :)

Alan B
01-22-2010, 12:22 PM
.....mis post by me wrong thread...moved my post to the LED thread

RLI Electric
01-22-2010, 07:06 PM
James, thanks. Thought I was on the electricians forum for a second. You better have chapter and verse ready to go there or you get spanked:)