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pitbullguy
04-27-2006, 12:52 AM
Is there an organic way to spot weed in a sprayer and not harm the grass around the weed??

Thanks.

Norm Al
04-27-2006, 06:47 PM
this is the only organic selective weed killer i have found. it kills dollarweed, crabgrass, clover, chicweed and many others but i dont think you can spray it. it killes in a day! www.crabgrassalert.com

NattyLawn
04-27-2006, 09:13 PM
this is the only organic selective weed killer i have found. it kills dollarweed, crabgrass, clover, chicweed and many others but i dont think you can spray it. it killes in a day! www.crabgrassalert.com


You keep pushing that stuff, but if you read the FAQ it hasn't been tested on cool season grasses yet! Also, the weeds must be wet to apply and comes in 2lb bottles that cover 100-200 sq ft. It also states that it takes 3-5 days to kill. Not even viable for the commercial applicator.

pitbull. Check out the Green Guardian. They're a site sponsor and have selective edible and organic products.

upidstay
04-28-2006, 08:56 AM
The only "organic" herbicides I have seen or used were non-selective acids. Ther eis a citric acid based product, high strength vinegar, or pelargonic acid. All function the same way... they burn the vegetation (and you eyes/skin if you isn't real careful!!)

Norm Al
04-28-2006, 05:32 PM
it isnt labeled for northern turfs nattylawn. have you even tried the stuff yet? im still waiting for you to post up all the other selective weed killers that are organic,,,,,so i can try them? you got any? thats the only 1 i have found,,,,,thats probably why i keep posting it up!



asulox used to take 6 weeks to kill, roundup takes 7-10 days to kill and your complaining about it taking 3-5 days? are you a professional or a home owner?


my experience has been that it kills in 1 day,,,,,dead!

NattyLawn
04-29-2006, 07:41 AM
I'll try Crabgrass Alert when you try the Green Guardian. Is that fair? If it isn't labeled for cool season grasses then it looks like a no go for me.

Also, I was referring to the weeds being wet, needing water to activate, and the fact that it comes in bottles that cover 100-200 sq ft as not being viable as a commercial product. Not the 3-5 days it takes to kill.

Norm Al
04-29-2006, 12:26 PM
natty most of the products i use need water to activate! im not sure what you are using? its statements like that by you that make me wonder if you are a professional or not?

i have already ordered the green guardian products,,,,,im all for spending some cash and finding what really works! green gaurdian concept is obvious, I have a feeling it will work and look forward to finding out if it is going to be cost affective to incorporate into the program! right now i sell agralawn crabgrass killer and make $35 per bottle per application from my customers they dont care how much it covers, i charge $55 to apply or kill 200 sq ft f weeds. it takes me about 15 minutes to apply a bottle, i use a backpack sprayer to apply the water OR i check the irrigation for coverage and after its wet i apply the weed killer,,,,,,,easy money for me and the customer is happy.

some customers i just sell them the bottle and let them apply it,,,,either way i make money and my customer finally has a solution in their hands when before they had none at all. they all gave up on CGM years ago.

NattyLawn
04-29-2006, 01:41 PM
First, the fact that you question if I'm a professional is funny. I do have a license, thank you. From the posts I've read, you're nothing more than a glorifed mower that treats a few of his customers lawns and pushes Crabgrass Alert. It's pretty much common sense to know that most products in this industry require water for activation. The product that doesn't? Weed Control.

Also, how many customers do you have? If you have enough time to go over the entire lawn with a backpack sprayer and a bottle of crabgrass alert that covers 100-200 sq ft, more power to you. If I do that on a customer that's 410,000 sq ft I would be there for days. That's where it's not economically viable.

You also bash CGM to no end as well. If it didn't work for you, fine, but it has worked for me. Like it has been said, proper cultural practices are needed.

Norm Al
04-29-2006, 05:24 PM
natty i have 70 people working for me in the lawn service and landscaping installation side of the green industry. spray side 5 employees and a 20 acre tree farm in central florida.

that crappy product agralawn,,,,heres who use it in florida that i am aware of,,,,trugreen chemlawn, florida pest control to name just a couple "small" companys. i started using it because my competition was kickin my butt tellin my customers that they could kill crabgrass and i couldnt,,,,,i tried it and it worked,,,,,believe it or not (i think you will like this) it was EASY to use.


i am in the business of making money and providing a service for my customers,,,,i dont care if i have to boil peanut butter and jelly and have 10 guys apply it,,,,if it works,,,,,my customers are paying and i earn a profit, im going to do it!


you sound like a typical spray guy,,,,its not easy wah wah wah! tell me why i should use it? whats in it (as if you would know chemistry)? its got a green label, why not use a pink one? its way over there i cant reach it! wah wah wah,,,,,,quit your crying and make a real company! I learned by watching the industry if you dont tap into these new organic products,,,,,the spray world is soon to be passing you by!

NattyLawn
04-29-2006, 06:04 PM
It's funny how you respond to posts without actually reading or responding to any of the content.

I'm not the one crying, nor am I pushing a product that we don't know the ingredients of. There are a lot of organic product claims that turn out to be false. What strikes me funny is they don't list any of their ingredients. You claim you're cutting edge as well, but you only found about the product after TGCL and state pest control beat you to the punch. You said you'll do whatever it takes to make a profit and if that means shilling the same junk as TGCL so be it. Plenty of other companies make a profit selling unnecessary services. It doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

Norm Al
04-29-2006, 09:40 PM
natty let me say this real slow so you can understand it,,,,,THAT PRODUCT WORKS,,,,you put it on and the weed dies in 1 day,,,,,,i use it all the time! if you want a product sheet its on their website at www.crabgrassalert.com,,,,,they sell it in 50 pound bags for a ton cheaper than the 2 pound bottle. i guess you keep waiting for someone to spoon feed you all the info,,,,,im not the guy to do that for you.

YOU are aplying the crap,,,,cgm is crap its a dream product,,,,people hope it works,,,,,show me 1 ounce of any proof from anyone it works! I can look out my window and see the other product work,,,,,so how is it crap?

Norm Al
04-30-2006, 08:04 AM
ok natty i decided i will help you get their msds sheet. just scroll down and print it off.

http://www.crabgrassalert.com/professional.html

muddstopper
04-30-2006, 11:37 AM
I am going to make a suggestion that you both can try. Mycorrizhial innocculation. You have to inject the product into the ground at and below the root level. A drench or simply spraying on top of the ground wont work. Most weedy grasses dont form a mycor association but turf grasses do. The end result is a thicker healther root zone for the turf grasses and a depressed root zone for the weedy grasses. The end result is that the turf grasses will choke out the weedy grasses. Now this wont happen overnite but is a longer term cure for your weed problems. Other side benefits are a thicker turf that is also more disease/drought resistance. Innoculation cost are around $20 per acre for materials and add your labor rates. Of course you will probably lose income from the procedure since you wont have to repeat the applications every few weeks or even every year. You also dont have to worry about over application rates, what isnt used will lay dormant in the soil until it is contacted by the roots of a mycorr associating plant.

Norm Al
04-30-2006, 03:21 PM
good deal muddstopper. in florida most of our customers want immediate gratification so maybe using both together would be a good idea?
also much of the water is processed here with tons of chemicals,,,,,,i was told that the chlorine would kill the micoriz as soon as it hits it,,,,is that true?

muddstopper
04-30-2006, 07:39 PM
I cant answer about the chlorine, but Mycor. isnt harmed by most insecticides or herbicides. I do know that a lot of the golf courses around Hilton Head SC us mycorrhyziea on their courses. For exsisting turf, Plant Health Care makes a product called Mycorrnase, (sp) that is a root extract that stimulates mycor growth of mycor spores that already exsist in the soil. this can be applied as a drench or as a injection. It isnt approved for a totally organic program, even tho it is a organic chemical or enyzme that occurs natually in the roots of 95% of all plants in the world. I have also seen research that supports the disease suppression of certain turf diseases as a direct result of the yucca wetting agent used to help the mycorrnase get into the soil. PHC doesnt sell the Yucca for that purpose simply because of the expense of labeling as a pesticide. If you chose to use the mycornase with yucca wetting agent as an injectable, you can also add the VAM mycorr spores at the time of injection to give a faaster mycorr establishment. Vam spores are to big to be applied as a drench, they will never work their way down ito the soil, are killed by direct sunlite, and sensitive to temperatures above 115 degrees. Which is why you never find live spores in compost or compost teas.

JFinfo, There are about 150 different species of VAM, and endomycorrhyzea. the estabilshment is very slow since they are below ground and dont translocate thru the soil. One study showed that it took 14 years for an innoculated site to travel only 20ft thru the soil to non innoculated sites. Which is why it is extremely important to innoculate new plantings on disturbed soil. Innoculation procedures is usually below ground injections approx 16 inches apart. Establishment with actual VAM spores instead of root sections gives the fastest response and establishment rates. the VAM spores have to be placed in or near the root zone so that the roots can grow into the Vam before establishment will occur. VAM doesnt move thru the soil and depends on roots bumping into it before it can inhabit the host plant. VAM is also a ***** and doesnt care which plants it attaches to, so variteity isnt as important as number of spores.

the opposite is true of ectomychorrhizia, There are over 2500 different species of ecto. The ecto is host specific, translocates thru the soil and thru the wind by way of puff balls in the forest floors and is usually found on woody plants, so it isnt appropriate for turf areas. Some VAM on the other hand will associate with woody plants.

NattyLawn
05-01-2006, 08:03 PM
ok natty i decided i will help you get their msds sheet. just scroll down and print it off.

http://www.crabgrassalert.com/professional.html

I'm so tired of pissing matches and the same posts from you. So, CGM didn't work for you. Did you research it or use it for consecutive seasons, apply at correct rates?

One look at the Crabgrass Alert website with it's cute logo and I'm sold! They dance around everything and never tell you what it is. That being said, I will order a bottle and test it alongside the Green Guardian this Spring.

By the way, the link to the MSDS no worky. I tried with Explorer, Safari and Firefox in case it was browser dependent. I doubt it will ever be up.

Norm Al
05-15-2006, 07:54 PM
natty im really not trying to have a "pissing match with you"

im the kind of guy that busts it down hard, im sorry if i came off that way,,,,,i have given you the opportunity for you to post something/anything from anyone that says/proves cgm actually works in preventing crabgrass seeds from germinating.

NattyLawn
05-15-2006, 08:58 PM
Go here: http://www.gluten.iastate.edu/
Read anything on there in particular: The Use of Corn Gluten Meal As A Natural Preemergence Weed Control in Turf

No offense, I really wasn't looking to find any proof for you. You spout the same things over and over again and make it look like I'm the one not doing any research. I will buy a bottle of your Crabgrass Alert and test it alongside of the GG (good results so far). Funny thing is when things don't pan out for you (no clue of ingredients, MSDS doesn't work) you totally ignore and harp on the same old thing. I honestly don't care what you think. "You bust it down hard" for the junk product you have to sell and everything else doesn't work, no university testing (even though CGM was developed at Iowa State), blah blah blah,. So be it. I don't give a $h!t what you have to say. I'm sure a lot of people on this site feel the same way about me.

Norm Al
05-16-2006, 07:29 PM
natty your a typical distributor of products,,,,you obviously know nothing about these products in the real world.


that website is not mine. and how would you know if its junk you have never used it? the msds printable sheet works fine you must be computer challenged.

real distributors handle that product,,,,Pro Source,,,,Verticon,,,,Pennington Seed,,,,BWI Distributors,,,,,im suprised an awesome distributor like yourself hasnt jumped on it also? oh yeah your to busy trying to find a reason not to use it.

NattyLawn
05-22-2006, 08:43 PM
I'm not the distributor of the products. I'm the one out there using them and letting the sales people and customers know what works and what doesn't.

I'm not computer challenged. I have a Mac and the msds doesn't show up on that or my gf's Winblows machine or my work comp either.

Norm Al
05-24-2006, 09:27 PM
natty it looks like this place has an msds sheet for that product as well

www.planetnatural.com/planetnatural/ images/crabgrass-msds.pdf

Norm Al
06-14-2006, 09:38 PM
this section is so dead i think i will post this link again for killing weeds with an organic product,,,,,just to get this place fired up again: www.crabgrassalert.com

green_mark
06-15-2006, 07:25 AM
If you want sprayable selective weed controls with organic fertilizer.
www.farmcropextracts.com

Norm Al
06-15-2006, 11:24 PM
im glad you posted that mark,,,,,,man i thought i could hear the crickets chirping in this place.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-26-2008, 12:06 PM
wondering about the product in question? its a powder? seems to me it would be just easy to pull or dig up most of the weeds in question. proper lawn care practices from the beginging would be the best choice to me in stead of walking around dropping powder every where. proper land care and a dence turf would surpress most weeds and remember all weed germanat at different times so you need to keep a close eye on that. when you see them pull or dig up before the go to seed or spread. after you pull or dig up drop some seed and soil. thats the correct way.spaying, dropping powder is just a bandaid aproch to me its all about proper soil care from the start. the customers need to under stand that. so many factors involved to proper soil care, to make the soil not habitable to weeds. cal/mag ratio compaction ph lack of tense turf , abig one to me aclean mower deck! and say you have a huge spot of weed killed.what about the bare spot left behind? you just going to get more weeds. its all about the soil you guys, and i under stand a lot of mow and go guys never really get that and they are trying to provide another service to charge the customer you know? instead of correcting the problem to begin with, i think if you explain that to the customer from the start you can still make a profit and provide the proper care to get results..see thats the problem with society today instant gratification. a healthy weed free lawn is never that easy,nor is it rocket science.you are always going to have some weeds to deal with. listen to what the weeds are telling you,there"s a under lying problem and treat accordingly,use the IPM approuch. so inclosing just because big company's use these products doesn't mean they work, its just another angle for them to make a buck and remember knowledge is key.

NattyLawn
01-26-2008, 12:23 PM
The Green Guardian products in the picture above are liquid. They have a 14-0-5 and a 5-0-3. They are both pesticide free and are marketed more as "edible" than organic. The 14-0-5 does contain urea. What it does is knock back the weeds and then push turf growth in those areas. Just like any weed kill, you might have to re-seed certain areas.

Can you not capitalize a sentence? Your stuff is hard to read.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-26-2008, 04:40 PM
Sorry Natty, That you had trouble reading my post. And yes i can capitalize. Depending on what type of weed it is. Knocking it back is just a band-aid approach. From what I"v seen in the field , 11 years lawn care/landscaping for chem guys using the most potent chems available, That you are just suppressing them instead of killing them.Unless you repeat apps. every 7 to 14 days till you know its gone"dead", if that possible? Weeds like Nut grass/kaliga/spell check that one.lol. Dandelion/plantains all have other tubers rhizomes taproots ete. If you don't kill it completely it will lie dorment till it can recover,"yellow nut grass is the worst here where i am" Its a contiouse cycle, Which is good if your trying to charge the customer annually. But in the long run the customer will see there's no progress being made. And worst of all you are spraying chemical's annually and polluting the enviorment. Now crab grass is tricky cause it has so many seeds that can blow in and the lawn maintenance from the mowers is the BIG one to me"sticking to the deck and wheels ete.and spreading from lawn to lawn, And it being a grassy annual weed that loves hot temps and curb lines. Those seeds can lye dormant for many years. Cultural practices is the key. The point every body misses. I also know in the real world this is very labor intensive and time consuming but, That's the best strategy to me. I think you can recoup profit in many ways from that approach, 1 if you can keep the turf under control season after season , Your customer will probably tell one of their friends and so on and so on.2 Being known as the guy who can archive these results is priceless to your business 3 It shows to your customers that you do know something and your not just trying to make A buck and that you care about the service you provide them, To me its all about the customer relationship, So many guys take advantage of that fact, think their **** don't stink and i have enough customers and who cares if the leave. That's the problem with our industry , Seems to me most are just out for the buck. That good and bad cause, the good part is it leaves the door open for guys like me to gain customers, cause they want quality and bad cause it gives a bad impression of us as a whole. It also seems to me you have motivation to sell this product/ saying you can offer natural crab/ weed control, But you know and I know you are just suppressing them and if they went to seed, well back to square one. , and I maybe giving your product more credit then i should by saying that. The ingredient says cinnamon? Is that a selective herbicide? How? Is that the reason for the fertilizer in it? . Does the label say you better have good aim with your wound when you spray? What about dense turf with early stage crab grass how do you not burn the turf? And Ill also say I dont know every thing and IM always trying to learn more so dont take afence to this post. I am open minded to every thing but a product that doesnt list full ingredients you have to be skeptical, There are so many new products out there and they all make their claims you know? Also I under stand weeds have to be brought undercontrol to start any good program and you cant always pull or dig up every one I realize that!!!, but guys out there need to under stand their soil first instead of just spaying to suppress. understand whats causing the problem and take the appropraite action .If you have any info you would like to share with me you can email me at organichorticare@hotmail.com thanks

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-26-2008, 04:57 PM
opps natty sorry if im confused I thought you were talking about the product from crabgrassalert.com sorry for any confusion!
the green g. product i know nothing about yet Ill get back to you on that one I was asking the question about if it was powder pertaining to crabgassalert

Elden
01-26-2008, 10:56 PM
I've used the product before w/ my previous employer. It is just cinnamon, I think like 95-98% then a little inert. what the inert is i dont know. The way they had us using the agralawn was to spray the crab grass w/ quicksilver, one other herbicide i can not think of right now for the world, then sprinkle the agralawn on, then re-spray lightly again to "activate". they got ok results, but like growing said crabgrass can be a beast

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-26-2008, 11:38 PM
Elden What is quicksilver? What tool do you use to sprinkle the agralawn with? Strait from the can? And how much? How does it affect the surrounding turf? How long does it take to take affect? Is one treatment enough? On a scale 1 to 100 what do you rate it? What is the surrounding turf variety? Warm or cool season turf? thanks for any insight

Kiril
01-27-2008, 01:27 AM
growingdeeprootsorganicly, no offense, but it would help us all if you broke up your posts into paragraphs, or at least logical thoughts. Also wouldn't hurt to run a spell check. :)

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-27-2008, 08:58 AM
Kiril,
Thanks for the advice, I knew I would get jumped on for my spelling errors
and sentence formation. In retrospect I guess in does just run on and on.
I apologize. Ill do my best not to run on with my thoughts like that I the future

Kiril
01-27-2008, 09:18 AM
If you use Firefox2, there is an inline spell check you can enable in the options -> advanced -> general tab.

Works for multi-line form fields. Given I am also a poor speeler ;) it saves me having to use a desktop app to do spell checks.

phasthound
01-27-2008, 10:10 AM
If you use Firefox2, there is an inline spell check you can enable in the options -> advanced -> general tab.

Works for multi-line form fields. Given I am also a poor speeler ;) it saves me having to use a desktop app to do spell checks.

Yo, Kiril, yous guys betta give us Jersey guys a break, if ya know whats good for yous.:nono:

Seriously, I use the spell check and preview post options provided by lawnsite at the bottom of the reply to thread page.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-27-2008, 10:53 AM
Berry,
Thanks for the back up! LOL. And i hear where you are coming from but, Barry's right. Just go advanced and they have spell check. I just got lazy and wrote to fast and didn't't check my post.
But anyway back to the thread. Any suggestions on topic? what products are you guys using? For spot control for grassy and broad leaf weeds? naturaly/organically? Does such a product exists? That really works?

I read a lot of claims but have no first hand knowledge on the subject myself. On my personal home lawn I pull or dig up, and fertilize organically with multiple organic products. And the weeds never get a foot hold.

I hope to start an organic lawn care biz this spring "god willing" So I'm studing every thing I can get my hands on.
I come from a chem lawn care back ground and I fell In love with organics about 3 years ago, Cause it makes perfect sense to me!
Any help would be greatly appreciated

Elden
01-27-2008, 06:39 PM
growing it has been about 2 years since i used the product but it was like 1-2 tbsp. and they had us just shake it out of the container. Quicksilver is a synthetic herbicide As far as the sucess I would say around 75%, but I dont know how much of that was which product considering 3 different herbicides were applied to the crabgrass.

Like you I worked for a large company. Now that I am not working for them looking back I see alot of things that I did and things that were done that I don't agree w/ now.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-27-2008, 07:40 PM
Elden,
thanks for the info. Gez's 3 different products? Elden why did they use a synthetic and a natural product? What was their angle with that approach? I'm an organic guy at heart but, I would use an IPM approach myself. I know the purest will bash me for it, but there is a place for synthetic herbicides If there are no other choices and you have to get the weeds under control so they don't spread. And cause more damage

Now with that being said, I would not use them for the cure all. So many other factor's involved with weed control like i've stated in my thoughts in previous posts in this thread.

If you cut a yard with ton's of crab grass in it and it has gone to seed. What about the next yard you cut and so on. You spread those seeds. And believe me I know in the real world its easyer said then done as far as the proper cultural practices. But these type of things that make a difference in keeping weed out in the first place.

Now if there is a true effective selective natural/organic herbicide, please! I'm all ears
All ears that is , To people not hustling a product and to the people behind products you can email me at organichorticar@hotmail.com with any TRUE data and endorsement's

ICT Bill
01-28-2008, 08:34 AM
Now if there is a true effective selective natural/organic herbicide, please! I'm all ears
All ears that is , To people not hustling a product and to the people behind products you can email me at organichorticar@hotmail.com with any TRUE data and endorsement's

Selective for what?

I wouldn't expect a reply to your email any time soon.............uh .....don't hold your breath

Elden
01-28-2008, 10:01 AM
I believe the theory behind it was that the agralawn would produce a quick burn of the weed while the other products worked systimically. Thus producing a quick visual for the customer. I will probly buy the product and do some field trials on it just to see how it works alone.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-28-2008, 07:20 PM
Elden,
Thanks for the info. Seems that way is a waste of time to me.
products like Q4 trimec+ acclaim ,msma based [products do the job to me, about aweek or so to kill.
that quick burn is not necessary. If a customer can't wait a week or two well they need to get a grip..
the correct strategy to me is an IPM approach. once the crab grass is under control.
When you can get the grass thick and dense and once that's established and proper cultural practices are TRULY being employed Then there's A chance to keep the weeds to a minimum. and you can just pull and dig up weeds when they pop, cause once their under control it's not a big deal to use that method.
Just spraying when you see them is not the way to go

Say the yards full of crab grass that's gone to seed and you cut and bag it .
you are still going to drop seed and the next yard you cut that might not have any is going to get seed dropped there and so on. Got to get the crab grass before it goes to seed. that's the trick.
In my book its ok to use herbicides in an organic program. Only to get the yard under control at first. not as an annual program with out any proper cultural practices being employed. You spread the seed you shoot your self in the foot. that's the problem with any program. most mow and go guys don't care cause its another service to sell annually.
most customers don't know that crab grass is an annual weed and its germination times and that it thrives in the summer and dies out in the fall any way. All weeds have life cycles. For instance chick weed. usually a winter weed a customer might say get rid of that . Guy comes in and sprays but at the same time there's lawn maintenance going on and dropping seeds . Next year comes 'spring" maybe some but not that much a problem.
customer thinks gee they did a good job only to find tons again that fall. Its all about cultural practice's . that's the key to me .
There's more that I could say about it, but my dinner is almost done.
You have to look at the whole picture
: But that's just an opinion:cool2:

ps this is to ICTBILL selective for anything and every thing " I think you know what I mean by selective I mean it kills weeds not cool season turf

Elden
01-28-2008, 09:48 PM
Growing, here is some food for thought you were talkin about the few yards that have some crabgrass established. If spreading weeds to other yards are a concern. Schedule your day as to do those yards last, mow around the small areas that have crabgrass, then just go back and weed eat the areas, rake up the seed heads you can and discard them. That way you could avoid acidentally spreading seeds. Don't forget to charge for the extra time it take and make sure to explain that once its gone you will do the same process when you start someone else's lawn to prevent as much as possible bringing seeds to their yard.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-28-2008, 11:49 PM
Elden
The problem with that is that you are going to spread the seeds every where on that lawn. and you will always be dealing with it, season after season
not to mention the trimmer will get some on it ,not a big deal, but some thing to consider. You will never be able to rake them up, the seeds will scatter every where you know?
you will be raking up just mostly veg.
I forget how many seeds are estimated on a good size crab grass plant, but it's alot
and i see your from fl.
I'll have to read up ,but you guys have different type of crab grass, I think than us up north

how about this, maybe have a push mower devoted for that purpose instead of the trimmer
or maybe cut those yards with tons the same day " BUT your still going to keep the problem going till you do something about them first place.

you might clean the mower with a back pack blower and scrap it with a Spackle knife or what about a presser washer on trailer? I don't know how that would work real world? though.

I would spray the weeds and stay on top of them and not let them go to seed.
cause all that other stuff sound like a hassle.
the push mower with bag might be the way to go as far as if the crabgrass has gone to seed, and its a small area, but larger areas you really cant push them all, It's not practical

remember if stay on top of the weeds, that means every week you cut look at the lawn, see a weed, spray it or dig it up that way it wont go to seed and there's no chance of contamination, and every day you should change your blades and clean the deck , use a hose and squirt it with water to wash it off if you think there might be weed seeds on it.
I've seen it so many times ,new lawns really don't get weeds till the mowers start spreading them.

there's noway it's all blow in , It's the equipment
study weed germination times and what conditions they favor and you will see.
crab grass loves hot dry conditions and when do you see them thriving?
summer drought conditions, they thrive.

proper practices, proper weed control ,a dense high turf and a properly watered lawn, is key
also consider what the weeds are telling you, Weeds like dandelion spurge purslane love compacted enviorments.
look at it this way, its natures way of fixing it's self. These weeds have tap roots. they will try to burrow though the soil to open it up
nature is amazing isn't' it?

"NEVER ALL KNOWING JUST ALWAYS GROWING:weightlifter:"

NattyLawn
01-29-2008, 08:50 AM
Selective for what?

I wouldn't expect a reply to your email any time soon.............uh .....don't hold your breath

Green Guardian is a site sponsor and have their own forum. I have used the 14-0-5 and the 5-0-3 selective, "edible", pesticide free products. I wouldn't classify them as organic (14-0-5 contains urea, the 5-0-3 doesn't have urea), but the 5-0-3 might be. I have got good control over dandelions, plantain, clover and some other common weeds. Ground ivy, wild straewberries and oxalis require additional treatments. We were having issues until we purchased the lawnjet gun with the tk-10 tip from Rittenhouse. Once we bought the gun results improved dramatically, but some like livingsoils have got good results out of a backpack.

Mark and his company apply the product once a month (generally) on their existing lawns so they get good dieback of weeds and good greenup....Our premise is adding organic matter and soil biology, so applying the product throughout the season is not ideal for us. I'm trying to incorporate a weed buster (3 apps in one month to eliminate 80% of weeds) into our program this season.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 09:37 AM
Natty
I checked out their site green g.
cant figure out what's in their product, does the 14 0 5 have corn gluten meal in it?
beet juice? or are they using some kind of fatty acid's for suppression?
seems their program is all about marketing to me.
and any company that doesn't say whats in their product I don't trust.
their pest control is just garlic and pepper
I don't think they are doing anything special.. Cause know matter how you rap it up and present it, as some thing spacial , it is still what it is

I still need more info on that stuff to come to a final conclusion.
any other info on that product you guys could give me would be helpful.

"never all knowing just always growing":weightlifter:

NattyLawn
01-29-2008, 10:25 AM
Urea, molasses, corn solubles and potassium chloride are the ingredients in the 14-0-5.

Download the product manual: http://www.farmcropextracts.com/order.html

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 10:45 AM
natty
I thought so, the corn solubles have to be some kind of corn gluten meal thats sprayable.
What do you think?
wondering how do they think thats special? Is it because they can spray it?
Is that it?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 10:55 AM
Natty
what is the urea amount 4%?
if that's the case I know it was c.g.m
being its 10% n
you know just looking at the numbers told the whole story to me
also i guess you can't seed with that product?
I pray somebody can really figure out away to to suppress weed effectively besides using cgm
I have to research some more on beet juice and the fatty acid angle to come to some more conclusions on these products these products

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 11:03 AM
oops disregard the the type- o at the end im multitasking right now LOL!

Kiril
01-29-2008, 11:06 AM
I pray somebody can really figure out away to to suppress weed effectively besides using cgm

I thought you already stated how? Build a system that supports the desired plants (not the weeds), and maintain those plants in a fashion that promotes a competitive advantage to those plants.

NattyLawn
01-29-2008, 11:12 AM
Natty
what is the urea amount 4%?
if that's the case I know it was c.g.m
being its 10% n
you know just looking at the numbers told the whole story to me
also i guess you can't seed with that product?
I pray somebody can really figure out away to to suppress weed effectively besides using cgm
I have to research some more on beet juice and the fatty acid angle to come to some more conclusions on these products these products


The Green Guardian products kill existing weeds. CGM does not.

GG makes a product with beet juice, but that's sold in Canada, not here. Fatty acid angle? Like Scyhte? That would be non-selective.

Also, you can apply right before seeding.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 12:31 PM
natty
thanks for the link. green gardien the
active ingredients are 1% citric acid ...." 1% 2-phenethyl propionat" a flavor additive for food, i think derived from peanuts + it's used as an insecticide in the real world and a insect attractant for Japanese beetles" What about atracting grubs on turf? 1% lauryl sulfate " shampoo" and the label says the corn soluble and molasses" the sticker agent i think?" and urea are the inert ingredients?
tell me how does that suppress weeds?
just wondering?
their natures fed the one with 5/0/3 is just fert to me unless it's spray able cgm. as it says derived from corn solubles and molasses
their every thing most go has 35% 2-phenethyl propionat and 1%lauryl sulfate
and 5% garlic that sound more to me like an insecticide.
but I never have tried it so the jury's still out to me
You have experience with those? can you please comment on their defectiveness?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 12:41 PM
kiril
yes i did but i am trying to find a natural PRE emergent for weeds and a POST emergent for existing weeds that are presant with out using some thing more harmful. cause once you got the yard under control, Then you can start to manege the turf correctly
and natty i know cgm is NOt a POST emergent but i was trying to explain how that product works by suppressing weeds to begin with

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 01:01 PM
Kiril
food for though. Say you get a new customer and the yard is 6000 sf
and is filled with ridiculous amounts of grassy and broad leaf weeds.
and the customer wants to go organic
But that customer does not have all the money in the world to archive this.
Do you think they will pay me to dig up all the weeds or completely renovate the yard?
what then?
what's your plan?
you have to manage the property on an individual basis
ofcource i know what the most natural way is , but in the real world you have to be flexible.

A IPM approach TONS of weeds, what now?
the best approach would be to first spray the turf with a selective synthetic herbicide to get it under control then and only then do you have a chance to keep the yard under control and start proper cultural practices to keep it that way.
remember not every body is rich!
so you have to have a realistic plan
and to me that makes sense, cause it's better then the customer saying well i cant afford that and they don't want my service
cause once I get that yard under control I won't have to use those type of herbicides any more.

cause it's more economical to pull a few weed by hand then thousands!

Kiril
01-29-2008, 01:20 PM
In your scenario -> limited funds and tons of weeds -> I agree -> round-up the area until the weeds are gone then establish your organic program.

If time is on your side you could alternatively solarize the area, but that option doesn't usually sit well with most people.

NattyLawn
01-29-2008, 03:25 PM
natty
thanks for the link. green gardien the
active ingredients are 1% citric acid ...." 1% 2-phenethyl propionat" a flavor additive for food, i think derived from peanuts + it's used as an insecticide in the real world and a insect attractant for Japanese beetles" What about atracting grubs on turf? 1% lauryl sulfate " shampoo" and the label says the corn soluble and molasses" the sticker agent i think?" and urea are the inert ingredients?
tell me how does that suppress weeds?
just wondering?
their natures fed the one with 5/0/3 is just fert to me unless it's spray able cgm. as it says derived from corn solubles and molasses
their every thing most go has 35% 2-phenethyl propionat and 1%lauryl sulfate
and 5% garlic that sound more to me like an insecticide.
but I never have tried it so the jury's still out to me
You have experience with those? can you please comment on their defectiveness?

As for the products "defectiveness", I think it's time that you buy some and test it yourself. You can only dissect the product so much, and you already have it figured that it doesn't work. So no matter what I say is going to convince you otherwise.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-29-2008, 06:56 PM
natty
i was just asking your experience. and success
cause all i hear is endorsements from guys that might have invested interests in it, im not saying it doesnt work? cause really i dont know
but to waste my money on just some endorsements from few people i would not do that
I have many other things to buy before that stuff
but thank for the help

Prolawnservice
01-29-2008, 08:59 PM
Kiril
food for though. Say you get a new customer and the yard is 6000 sf
and is filled with ridiculous amounts of grassy and broad leaf weeds.
and the customer wants to go organic
But that customer does not have all the money in the world to archive this.
Do you think they will pay me to dig up all the weeds or completely renovate the yard?
what then?
what's your plan?
you have to manage the property on an individual basis
ofcource i know what the most natural way is , but in the real world you have to be flexible.

A IPM approach TONS of weeds, what now?
the best approach would be to first spray the turf with a selective synthetic herbicide to get it under control then and only then do you have a chance to keep the yard under control and start proper cultural practices to keep it that way.
remember not every body is rich!
so you have to have a realistic plan
and to me that makes sense, cause it's better then the customer saying well i cant afford that and they don't want my service
cause once I get that yard under control I won't have to use those type of herbicides any more.

cause it's more economical to pull a few weed by hand then thousands!

1. Read the weeds and/or soil test.
2. Correct any deficiencies/compaction issues.
3. Mow often enough to not allow weeds to go to seed.
4. Prior to seeding your better balanced soil at the best time of year to give the desired grass a competitive edge, scalp (burn carefully if you choose), then seed and insure the new grass is maintained to give it the continual competitive edge culturally.
Customers with yards full of weeds should not expect miracles, and if they do, pass on them.

Sorry Matt but I have to disagree with you on the GG product. You have used it a lot more than me so maybe I didn't do something correctly, however, I am not willing to spend another 120+ dollars to "try" something again that may or may not work. IMO

NattyLawn
01-30-2008, 11:44 AM
1. Read the weeds and/or soil test.
2. Correct any deficiencies/compaction issues.
3. Mow often enough to not allow weeds to go to seed.
4. Prior to seeding your better balanced soil at the best time of year to give the desired grass a competitive edge, scalp (burn carefully if you choose), then seed and insure the new grass is maintained to give it the continual competitive edge culturally.
Customers with yards full of weeds should not expect miracles, and if they do, pass on them.

Sorry Matt but I have to disagree with you on the GG product. You have used it a lot more than me so maybe I didn't do something correctly, however, I am not willing to spend another 120+ dollars to "try" something again that may or may not work. IMO

One of the downsides to this product is it's biologically active. The formula might stay the same but the biology could react differently and give one drum better results over the other made at the same time. Come to think of it, we did get a drum that looked like a football:nono:. Now, I do agree that this product isn't cheap, and at 120 bucks for a 5 gallon pail it could be too expensive to try for the LCO and the end customer. Now, as a LCO, I'm trying to give my customers a pesticide free or organic option to conventional pesticides. It's expensive and time consuming on my end, but I do have customers that want and pay for it. Until something else comes along this is the way we go.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-30-2008, 01:29 PM
Natty,
I don't what to beat a dead horse but, can you give me some results
on the product in question? does it work? and to what degree?
say you have a full grown dandelion, what effect does it have on it?
how many times "apps." does it take to provide results?
or does this product work by suppressing them to begin with. before they get established?
remember i'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you, it's just seems you thave experience with it and i'm trying to figure it out.
thanks dude for any help*trucewhiteflag*

NattyLawn
01-30-2008, 01:41 PM
Natty,
I don't what to beat a dead horse but, can you give me some results
on the product in question? does it work? and to what degree?
say you have a full grown dandelion, what effect does it have on it?
how many times "apps." does it take to provide results?
or does this product work by suppressing them to begin with. before they get established?
remember i'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you, it's just seems you thave experience with it and i'm trying to figure it out.
thanks dude for any help*trucewhiteflag*


Sorry deeproots....I sometimes come across as a dick on here. Sometimes it's planned, sometimes not.
Spraying dandelions, plantain and other broadleaf weeds with large surface area you get shriveled plants in 24 hours. The harder to control weeds (ground ivy, strawberries, and oxalis) need a "weed buster" to eliminate 80%of weeds in 4 weeks (per farm crop extracts). This is where we run into issues because FCE sprays this product throughout the season, while I am using it for one blanket app and a follow up in the spring or fall.
I think how it works is a gradual burndown. You burn off the leaf matter, the fert pushes turf growth and the grass takes over eventually crowding out the weed. If you leave GG in your sprayer for a few days the product will ferment and turn into an organic roundup similiar to BurnOut.

Check out this sub forum: http://www.lawnsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=119
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=148214&page=2

You will have to sift through it, but I have some pics in there, and I think livingsoils does as well.

mrkosar
01-30-2008, 06:52 PM
[QUOTE=NattyLawn;2124858]If you leave GG in your sprayer for a few days the product will ferment and turn into an organic roundup similiar to BurnOut.QUOTE]

So does the water mixed with the GG make it ferment? If not, how do you store it for periods of time?

NattyLawn
01-30-2008, 07:21 PM
[QUOTE=NattyLawn;2124858]If you leave GG in your sprayer for a few days the product will ferment and turn into an organic roundup similiar to BurnOut.QUOTE]

So does the water mixed with the GG make it ferment? If not, how do you store it for periods of time?

Yes it will make it ferment. It stores for long periods of time in concentrate form. Once mixed, you better spray it withing 24-48 hours tops depending on the weather. You'll know when it starts to go.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-31-2008, 11:37 PM
Natty,
thanks for the links. I've been thinking about what I posted in this tread about a customer not having alot of money to start and spraying synthetic herbicides to get the yard under control. I think I failed to realize that the customer will have to bite the bullet and pay for the proper renovation at some point in time to get desired results
cause depending on the soil to begin with in that yard.
they will probably need aeration/seed and a good top dressing of compost to really start their program right.
cause with out that, there are still seeds dormant on the soil,
and how are you going to increase fertility to grow a dense turf with out the renovation? will spraying syns. and adding organics ferts be enough? there's over seeding and even better slit seeding, but will that be enough to correct things?
I want to give the best advice to the customer to begin with and I really want to stay away from those chemical's in the first place.
I guess I go back to the drawling board and try to work this out.

any suggestion anybody?:hammerhead: