Help on $$$$$$$$

[AB Lawn Care]

Don't worry this is not a stupid question like &quot;how much do you guys charge?&quot;or&quot;will $13 on hour be a good rate to charge?&quot;What I want to know is a harder question than that!I have been in business for 5 years and I am paying all my bills but not making much!What I want to know is do any of you have a way to look at what you are charging and see if you are making enought!I have seen sevral times before in the forum people have looked over there books and realized that they must charge more.If anyone has any ideas how I can improve my situation plese let me know!I hope this does not sound like a stupid question but that is my problem! <p>from:Adam <p>AB Lawn Care

[lawrence stone]

Adam wrote:<p>&gt;I have been in business for 5 years and I am paying all my bills but not making much!What I want to know is do any of you have a way to look at what you are charging and see if you are making enought!<p>The only thing I can think of is to get a visa/greencard and move to the United States.<p>From what the other Ontario contractors in this forum<br>have to say it's MHO that you Canucks are<br>working for starvation wages.<p>If you can move to where the $$$ is the next<br>best thing would be to increase your productivity and/or lower your overhead.<p>Sam Kinison once said about people<br>who were starving in Africa:<p>&quot;Why don't they just move to where<br>the food is&quot;<p>

[AB Lawn Care]

Thanks for the idea but i'm sorry that is out of the picture.I like my area and don't wish to move to the U.S.Yes our wages are not as good as in the U.S. but i'm sure that the other guy from canada on this forum would agree that it is a nice place to live.Thanks anyway!<p>from:Adam <p>AB Lawn Care

[steven Bousquet]

not picking on you at all, but doing the same thing over and over again and expecting diffeent results is termed insanity. Change how you charge,how much you charge and how you sell and market getting more money has little to do with the work it has to do with marketing.

[AB Lawn Care]

Steven Bousquet you said &quot;but doing the same thing over and over again and expecting diffeent results is termed insanity.&quot;Do mean by never changing your prices and or clients you will never make anymore money?If that is the case I have raised all my clients prices 10% last year and today I gave one of my clients a 60% raise.I,m not asking how much I should charge or how to get better clients,I have no problem there what I need to know is how can I look at my current financial situation and see right away where my prices need to be.For the past year or two now I have been raising my prices at least 8% each year but for all I know maby I need to raise my prices by 30%.So it would take 3-4 years to hit the price I need to be at.I'm asking this question so by the end of the year I will know where I have to be.Maby this will clarify my question!Any ideas?<p>from:Adam<p>AB Lawn Care<br> <br> <br>

[Charles]

A&B price are controlled pretty much by what the competition is charging. The customer goes by what the have been charge by other lawn service companies in the past. And some go way back and try to keep the prices the way they were in the 1980s and even the 1950s. I know I should be charging alot more in 2000 prices with inflation etc. Its frustrating but I dont think any of us will ever make what we should be making in this type of business.

[mountain man]

The key is to identify where all of your revenues are coming from and then break down which areas are more profitable. Once you know which are more profitable then you can focus and market those areas.<p>There is an article on page 10 of this months Pro magazine that talks about a 22 year old company that had to reorganize and get rid of some unprofitable business. After losing money for the year they did a study and realized that several of their core areas had always lost money and a couple of divisions had been carring the whole company. When the cash cows had an off year the other divisions couldn't pick up the slack because they had never been profitable. Now they are smaller but more profitable.

[cutntrim]

Adam,<p>We live in the best country in the world...CANADA. We're taxed alot higher than the boys down south but that's something that all of us up here have to deal with. Your competitors face the same economic market that you do. But you know that.<p>I'd suggest that before continuing to raise prices, you try to lower your expenses and increase your productivity. For us that has meant purchasing a Z-Master 52&quot; and selling our oldest 36&quot; WB, and trying to do more of the routine maintenance of our own equipment rather than having our service guy do it all. One thing you can do (if you haven't done so already) is check into the government programs for hiring students. The government will subsidize you up to $4.50 per hour for 16 weeks of a student's wages. <p>Either get an accountant to do it, or do it yourself but you need to know exactly how much it costs you to operate your business and once you know that and you're sure your running as lean and mean as you can then you'll know the minimum amount you need to charge for your services. <p>Hope that helps, if only a little. Gotta go, baby is cryin'.<p><p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>www.cutntrim.com

[steveair]

AB, you said it will take 3-4 years to be where you need to be. What does that mean?<p>Does that mean you don't expect to make any money for 3-4 years?<p>Thats insane. You need to be making money NOW.<p>I think the root of your problem is you are being too NICE to your customers. If you have to raise your prices 30, 40, 50 or even 100 percent, then you better do it. If the customers don't like it, then they weren't good customers anyways. They were cheap customers. If you can't find customers that will pay what you want, or need to make for that matter, then seriously consider the option of either moving or trying another line of work.<p>Also, you say that this is a more complicated question than &quot;what should I charge&quot; To me, it sounds like it is that simple. Obviously, if you are broke, then maybe you need to figure out what to charge for simple things like planting one tree or edging 100 ft of bed. There's obvioulsy either something wrong with your system, which usually start with the litlest things and snowballs all the way up to larger items.<p>I'm sorry for sounding a little bit out of line here. I don't mean to rip your head off or anything. I just get mad to hear people, who do all that hard work, and then don't get anything for it. You are entitled to it, so don't settle for less.<p>One more thing, as someone else will say here soon I'm sure, get some books. They are a tremendous help. Even if you hear things in this forum, you still need to learn and read for youself as much as you can. <p>Don't work for free.<p>Steveair<br>

[osc]

When you're making several hundred dollars a day and you get off work before dark, you know you are doing it right.

[AB Lawn Care]

Charles-thanks for the input!I agree.This guy lets call him Mr.Bob went nuts he had 3 crews on the road in my city,brand new trucks and was the cheapest bidder in town.He just went bankrupt this spring!You are right prices are too low!<br>Mountain Man-thanks!That is a good idea I think that is one thing I will be doing soon.<br>Cutntrim-Thanks for telling me about that student idea.That would be great down the road!I don't think I would let a student on my Walker or Scag,But that could be good to hire a student for easy tasks like power edging spraying down the trucks and so on!P.S. hope the baby did not give you a hard time!<br>steveair-Thanks........but I think you need to read over my post agian.I am making money now(i'm not going broke!)but I want to make more than just paying all the bills and having a small amout left!.What I ment is that I want to find out what I have to charge to get to the point that i'm making what I want,Not raise may prices every year untill I hit that figure.I did not say that I will not make any money for 3-4 years.I ment that if I just continued putting my prices up it might take 4 years for all I know.I hope this will clear things up!<br>osc-Thanks for the input.<br>I hope this will clarify what I'm asking about.Any more ideas?<p>from:Adam<p>AB Lawn Care<br>

[lawrence stone]

Adam wrote:<p>&gt;Any more ideas?<p>Get a pesticide license.

[steveair]

My response is how much more do you want to make. If you want to be a millionaire, think about the stock market....<p>Maybe you are just in the wrong business. I have no idea what you make so I can't say whether you are making enough or not. <p>However, if you are truly unhappy with what you make, but still love this profession and wouldn't want to do anything else in the world, and also want to do it in canada where you live, then you may have to get creative. <p>My best advice would be to sit down, think about the thing(work) you do best, and excel at it. Just go all out. If your favorite part is mowing, then just mow, nothing else. Just become the best at it. Forget mulching, forget edging, forget whatever. Just do what you want to do become #1 at it. If you are the best in the area, then you should make the 'best' money. If the money is not there, then you will have no choice but to move on, but at least YOU know you tried. That's all you, or anyone else in the world can do. <p>This whole thing just doesn't make sense. If you are pricing your jobs out right, then why are you not making the money you want?<p>The only answer is that you are not pricing the jobs out enough. <p>It sounds to me like your saying you are doing everything right, 'by the book', but still aren't making the money you want. <p>Well, its simple. When you do something you love, money isn't as important as the fact that you love what you do and love where you live.<p>If you are complaining about money, then maybe the satisfaction from a job well done is not doing it for you anymore. If this is the case, then look for a job where money is the leading reason to show up for work everyday.<p>I go to work because I love it. Not for the money. Granted, money is important, but not everything. <p>I think, as I feel a lot of other people do here, that landscaping/lawn care is not about money, but about satisfaction in doing what one does in their lives (now granted, some of us make out very well in this profession). If you say you are doing everything perfect, then there is no doubt that you just aren't happy with this profession and that you want a job where money is the leading reason for waking up every morning.<p>steveair<br>

[steven Bousquet]

ab lawn care i missed your point the first time,sorry about the insane thing , but i use that phrase alot. sounds like you need a account or a consultant like vanderkoi,.goodluck.

[Lawnnorder]

Adam: I am also in Ontario and have been doing lawns for 11 years; both full and part time. I was in a very similar situation. My answer was to reduce the area I work in (40 customers within a 12 mile radius) cutting down on fuel and lost time. I also looked at suppliers who would give me a discount such as fuel, telephone etc. I then found a small engine mechanic who liked to do work on the side who charged me less and gives me terrific service. I also do not take on any debt that cannot be paid for in 1 year or less (other than truck). Toro has interest free programs that I use to purchase my equipment.<br>The results have been very positive and my ROI remains high.<br>Good luck.<br>

[AB Lawn Care]

Lawrence Stone-Thanks agian but why start up a dying business?In my city they are planning on banning pesticides!<p>Steveair-I think you don't know what I'm asking or ?????????.I'm not asking how to make money or anthing like that.I'm asking HOW I CAN LOOK OVER MY BOOKS TO SEE HOW MUCH I NEED TO RAISE MY PRICES TO GET TO WHERE I WANT TO BE FINANCIALLY.I turned my cap lock on so you see exactly what my question was.I hope this will help you to answer my question.You seem to think i'm close to broke or somthing.I never said that.If you will read my past posts in full you will read that I'm losing money.I also never said that I want to be a rich man or even close!I also don't know where you came up with that I don't injoy my job.I have been cutting lawns for people for 8 years and 5 years professionally.If I did not injoy my job I would not be here asking these questions.You were right money is not everything in life but its nice to have a little to save up for a vacation.I hope this will clear up my question.<p>steven bousquet-I'm glad you realized what my question was.Yes down the road I will look into what you said.<p>Lawnnorder-Thanks for the info.I am currently getting rid of any low paying customers and I also have started leasing my equipment in a 2 year lease.I have looked for a small engine machanic but have not found one yet.I hope down the road I will find one.Thanks for the info and hope to hear from you soon!<p>I hope this will clear up my question!!!<p>from:Adam<p>AB Lawn Care

[steven Bousquet]

easy, take the total sales divide by the numbers of hours, 1,000 hrs produced $50,000 or 50 per hr. TO MAKE 60,000 YOU CAN raise your price to 60 per hour or WORK 200 MORE hours. quick and simple. only 3 ways to make more money 1.raise price per transaction. 2. get more clients, 3. increase the size of the customer purchases.<p>if you want to add 10,000 in sales and your avg account spends 1,000 all you need is 10 accounts or if you have 50 accounts spending 1,000, just get them to spend $200 more each or raise your price 20%. this is not what your looking for i am still not sure why you don't have a consultant or a accountant helping .do you exactly how much more you want? if so you can get there by using the above. it worked for over 10,000 companies of all kinds

[osc]

This may be an over-simplification but once I had a full work load, I only bid new biz at a high rate. Why? Because I am already busy enough with what I have. But some of these high rates come on board and slowly I can replace biz with better cuts and better money.<br>But actually I never seem to want to get rid of those old accounts that I worked hard for so I try bumping them up a little since I aquired new, better paying accounts. The pressure is diminished to be competitive because I have more accounts that pay well and are a treat to service. Within a couple of years I was making alot more money for the work load.

[lawrence stone]

ab wrote:<p>&gt;Lawrence Stone-Thanks agian but why start up a dying business?In my city they are planning on banning pesticides!<p>What other legal products will the ban next?<p>So I guess you will just let your elected officals put people out of business that are supplying need<br>services?<p>You should seriously consider moving from that twisted area.<p>Will your city pay for all the damage done to<br>your homes by termites or carpenter ants?<p>They are controled by a insecticide (pesticide).<br>

[AB Lawn Care]

Thanks agian everyone!This time I got the answers I was looking for.<p>Steven Bousquet-Thanks for your formula.Since I own clip software that will be no problem finding my total hours for a year!I will try that out.Thanks alot!<p>OSC-You are 100% correct!!!!I currently have a full work load and just today picked up a job.I priced it for 1/3 or more than my normal price.I plan to do this for now on.Thanks for the post!<p>Lawrence Stone-You crack me up somtimes.You said &quot;You should seriously consider moving from that twisted area.&quot;Yes our citys inforcements are somtimes nuts but I guess that is what you pay for living in the most beautiful city in the world under the pop.of 40,000.We where judged the winner last year in an international compition known as &quot;communities in bloom&quot;.Will the city pay for lost income,YAH RIGHT!!!!!THAT'S A LAUGH!!!I beleave that all the chemical based applacations may be banned.Hey lets see if we win that compition in acouple of years when grubs have eaten half the parks and dandelions are the size of trees!!!!Boy you think that is bad what about that fact the we have to pay $1.20 for each bag of garbage we put out to the street!!!Now what do you think about that!!!!!!!<p>Thanks for all the posts everyone.<p>from:Adam<p>AB Lawn Care<p>

[cantoo]

Lawrence, there are only a couple of areas in Ontario where termites are a problem. And yes they will be banning a lot of pesticies in the citys here soon. One of the towns I do work in has a huge white grub problem and they are still considering banning insecticides. The local Medical Doctors have organized a group to lobby the town to ban all lawn chemicals. They are pushing for control with nematodes for white grubs only. I just wrote and passed my exterminator's licence and don't even advertise it because it will cost me business in the work I want to do. I live about 60 miles from Adam and know exactly what he is talking about. I think the bottom line here is that you have to have a good client base and do other types of work in the off season, deck building, etc.

[PLM 2]

AB Lawn Care: <br>Let me say that my company is geared towards Landscape Maintenance ( I AM A GARDENER). We are a licensed contractor, a licensed pest control company, etc., etc., We are not a huge company. I still fill in where needed, my wife works in the field, and I face the same problems you do on a daily basis. Please excuse me if I don't understand your question correctly. It sounds like you're not sure about where to find the information you need, to justify your decisions; or you are not sure of the decisions you're making. If this is so then it is time to put out some $$'s and call in a consultant, read their books, join associations like ALCA, PLCAA, your local association, or get a mentor in your area. The first book you should check out, The E Myth Revisited Michael E. Gerber ISBN 0-88730-728-0 you can get this from Amazon.com. This is not landscape specific, but a good business book. <br>I have used a few consultants in the past, some of which I mention here. There are others you can probably reach through professional associations like ALCA and PLCAA. The phone numbers could have changed since I last used them. ALCA 800-395-ALCA. PLCAA 800 458-3466, is geared more toward chemical lawn care. <br>Frank Ross of Ross-Payne & Associates, Barrington, Illinois. I don't have their phone number but ALCA should have it. (I was first exposed to them by an ALCA seminar in the 1970's. (It changed the whole way we did business). <br>Charles Vander Kooi consultant and book publisher. I have all of his books and have attended several seminars. He seems to be geared more towards construction than maintenance. His book The Complete Business Manual for Landscape, Irrigation And Maintenance Contractors seems to be a summary of all his other books. I frequently reference it. Vander Kooi & Associates Inc., PO Box 621759, Littleton, CO. 80162. 303-697-6815, www.vanderkooi.com. <br>Phil Nilsson, Nilsson Associates. Publishes many books. I think I have most of them. Never heard him talk or hired him as consultant. http://www.turfquip.com/nilsson.html He holds a weekly on line seminar at his web site. <br>James R. Huston Smith Huston, Inc. PO Box 1244, Englewood, CO 80150-1244. E-Mail shi@smith-huston.com. 800-451-5588. James use to work for Vander Kooi went out on his own a long time ago. We have had Jim come in and review our operations and advise us. We also use him by phone when we have a question we are not sure about. We use some of his software and frequently reference his book Estimating for Landscape & Irrigation Contractors. <br>Kevin Kehoe, Kevin Kehoe & Company, 11 Gullwing, Laguna Nigel, CA 92677. 949-363-8416, Fax 949-363-8417 http://www.kehoeandco.com/. I've attended his seminars & bought his books. Straight forward no non-sense kind of a guy. One of my mentors used him. Very satisfied, mentor had 3 million a year in landscape maintenance sales, average profit 3% to 4% (this is normal) doing what Kevin suggested raised profits to 6% even after bonuses for staff, and staff bought in to the company goals. <br>Jim Paluch JP Horizons Inc. (440) 254-8211, Fax 800-715-8326. If you are really down and beat up this is The Guy. I've attended his seminars and purchased his books. He is GREAT for motivation and sales. You feel refreshed after a 8 hour seminar. How About the rest of you guys (gals) jumping in and letting us know about other consultants, seminars and mentors. And how they helped you?<p>Darrell<br>PLM, California.<br>Landscape@linkline.com<p>

[nlminc]

Darrell, I just had James R. Huston come to my business this past Saturday. He was great! Jim helped me answer business questions that were always in the back of my mind. He also set me up for a profitable season with a time and rate schedule to follow for the year. He set up equipment costing files for me to use in excel. I plan on meeting with him again in the future. He is worth every penny. I feel that it is always good to keep an open mind and to listen to what others have to teach you.<p>Chris<br>

[lawrence stone]

Cantoo wrote:<p> &gt;The local Medical Doctors have organized a group to lobby the town to ban all lawn chemicals. <p>No wonder why you canucks have to travel to<br>Buffalo for proper health care.<p>I have heard my people have died while waiting for the approval for a medical procedure while the paperwork was shuffled<br>around in your(Canuck)socalist health care system.

[steven Bousquet]

plm2 you must have my reading list in front of you, the E-myth is first, i actually use that book for a seminar i give for landscaper. Marty Grunder from the winners Circle is great for marketing and getting higher prices and Bob Riley of Green pro is very good for business systems and ways to increase profits. your consultant list is top notch and i would not be at the point i am at without all those consultants. I am the big guy most of you don't like. but i started with a push mower and did every thing wrong until i got consultants and read pro mag.

[cutntrim]

Adam,<p>Are you in Niagara-On-The-Lake? Just a guess.<p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>www.cutntrim.com

[kermit]

Stone, YOU DUMMY, where do you hear this garbage you are spouting? I know you are a lawn nut but try to stay out of discussions you know nothing about. Our health care beats yours anyday. We actually have it. It's for everyone, not the elitist system your country has developed. WE used to have your health care system until we grew up and started treating citizens less like dogs. HMO's who decide on what care you can receive? I've never seen anyone in Canada refused service. Maybe a bit slow but at least it's available and doesn't cost the earth. You have nothing to crow about with your health care system,the few times I have been in American Hospitals I have been appaled at the costs. How does an ordinary person afford those outrageous bills. Maybe thats why you have a lower standard of living than us and have an infant mortality rate near third world countries. Listen more,talk less Stone.

[AB Lawn Care]

Lawernce-Once agian you make me laugh.<p>Steven Bousquet and PLM 2-I have sevral books from nilsson associates and am a member of the winners circle.Agian I not in need of marking my busines,rather I need to see exactly how much I am making and how much I will need to raise my prices to get to where I want to be.Thanks for the suggestions!<p>cutandtrim-I live in stratford 1/2 an hour away from london and kitchiner.<p>from:Adam<p>AB Lawn Care<p>

[lawrence stone]

Kermit wrote:<p>&gt;I've never seen anyone in Canada refused service. Maybe a bit slow <p>Thanks for making my point. When people need health care the need it ASAP.<p>BTW did you know that NO ONE can be refused<br>emergency room treatment in any US public<br>hospital even if they have no insurance or the means to pay?<p>Higher standard of living. HA HA HA

[steven Bousquet]

Hey AB if your a winner circle member, you should come to the marty's boot camps landscaper boot camp. we have a blast, great speakers, networking and fun activity. I been th all tree and they better each time. next one in feb hope to see you there

[kermit]

Stone, I'll say this slowly so even you will understand, your country is lovely, I vacation there in the winter when it's a frozen arctic hell here, but socially you are in the dark ages. Even a fascist like yourself must be able to see that. The government rhat you insist upon has little or no regard for it's citizens. <br>I wasn't talking about emergency room sevice when I said you don't have medical care, I am talking about the care you get when you have just found out you are pregnant and need pre-natal care or you need cronic care for lukemia. What do you do in capitalist heaven when your HMO says NO? Where do you go when you need help with your expensive prescriptions and you are old. Well apparantly you come to Canada, where we still believe in people. I laughed when I saw sixty minutes and the trips your senoir citizens have to make to Canada to afford their heart presciptions.<br>It may come as a surprise to yopu Stone but most of us here in socialist heaven don't want to move to the States. We love the country and it's people but can't abide your social policies , crime rates,poverty,dirt, rotten politics,etc. etc.<br>Come on up to Canada and we'll show you why the UN (whoops, I guess that's a dirty word to you huh?) has voted Canada the best place to live, with the highest standard of living, for more years than you can count up to!

[osc]

You can get some pretty good pain killers in Canada. Down here in the U.S., the doctors are scared to death of our government and don't want to give you any narcotics. Not that I really need them, well maybe a few now and then.

[Retro67]

I have to agree. Our government (US) has done an excellent job of beating any honest doctor into submission. Hell, some think Tylenol&lt;sup&gt;&reg&lt;/sup&gt; is the answer to everything. The eighties and the reactionary policies that the decade of self-indulgence spawned screwed this country socially. <br>&lt;p&gt;Zero tolerance and the war on drugs have been great successes. Just look around you. Now if the police mistake you for a gang banger or think you fit a profile it is common practice to have your @$$ kicked and drugs planted on your person. Only in America, as they say. Don't get me wrong, I feel law and order definitely have their place. &lt;p&gt;I think if half of our citizens would pull their heads from their posterior and wake up and smell the coffee, it would be refreshing. We are sold the lie that our way is the best, sound familiar??? &lt;p&gt;We may have reasons to be thankful, but we have ten times as many reasons to be incensed. Keep voting for Republicans and Democrats and we will continue on our jouney as is. <br>&lt;p&gt;John <p>We got way off topic, but I needed to vent that, anyway.<p>

[Charles]

I have been to Canada many times. Beautiful country. Very nice people. But you can't compare canada to America the greatest country in the world. I mean we are sending probes to mars. We have been to the moon. We have defended the world a against communism. We have been the leader in medical research. America is also the most giving cheritable wise country there is. We give a tremendous amont of money and time to other countries. When there is a disaster in another country who is the first to respond???? America that is who. We have a disaster rarely does anyone help us. We have our faults. But we more than make up for it in out greatness. Our economy is 3 or 4 time greater than the nearest country. That just is from hard work.

[pogo]

Hye AB what kind of percentage of profit are you making? First thing I would do is cut out ALL ridiculous expenses. Use older equipment until you get caught up. In most cases older equipment works just as well as brand spanking new. Only buy what you need. Dont buy a bunch of extra stuff until you need it. If you have employees, start watchiing their time more closely. There is all kinds of things you can do to cut down your expenses. If you are a bad money manager it wont make any difference if you raise your prices. <br>Stone you are the bomb!<br>LATE

[AB Lawn Care]

Lawerence Stone-I'm not even going to get into the hole health care thing.I will let you guys do that!<p>Steven Bousquet-Thanks for all the responses.When I can afford to I will probably go to one.But I think I will take a nice couple of weeks off in flordia before I do that.OH NO..................I might meet lawerance down there and I wound never hear the end of how our helth care system stinks!!!!!Just kidding!<p>Kermit-I better not say anything about our health care.That will just start it up agian.<p>Pogo-Sorry but I don't run old equipment!I bougt a used waker desiel with 900hrs on it.It worked great until the winter came.It's starter blew,injectors went,pump broke and after I replaced all that it still ran lousy.I paid $1000 in a month in repairs!I got rid of it and bought a new walker.It is two years old now and 0 repairs to date!I taked to my dealer and he said that the guy who bought my old Walker when I traded it in spent about 500 before finding out that the alternator was dead and about 4 monthes after that it was not running well and they took the engine apart and one piston fell out!He rebuilt the engine and it cost him about $2000!!!!!!!I'm sorry but as far as equipment goes I will never buy a used mower agian unless it will be useed little or as a back-up or if I get some workers and don't want them smashing up my new walker.Thanks for the suggestion anyways!<p>from:Adam <p>AB Lawn Care