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View Full Version : New Mower?? Toro 27hp diesel vs not yet released toro diesel vs JD 997 [all zrt]


tomo
04-29-2006, 04:48 PM
Hello,:waving: Considering new purchase ,please list your views on the above. Criteria high hp 4 wet season work & speed 4dry season wk.Mainly mulching 70% SD 30% 60 inch deck. All other requirements have been thought thru. THankyou tomo

David Haggerty
04-29-2006, 05:26 PM
I personally think you're comparing opposite ends of the choices available when you compare Toro to JD.

I was just looking at a Toro in Cincinnati this week. It had the 60" deck with the Kubota diesel. I'd like to have it. But I didn't really need it.
It had the adjustable baffle for wet or mulching mowing.
It said TORO COMMERCIAL on it. That's is a grade above the TORO PRO line.

After 30 years of cutting grass I've gravitated to all Toro Commercial mowers. They're more expensive to buy but it pays off in the long run.

Dave

barefootlawnsandlandscape
04-29-2006, 05:33 PM
Just purchased and Toro Z-Master with a 27hp Kohler and 60in. deck. Did not purchase the bagger, will do so for fall leaves. All I can say is that it is a great mower, handles the hills well and cuts great. I put it to the test the second day I had it doing a mow job for a contractor who had a spec house on an acre and a half with weeds up to 18" high. It didn't even hesitate and I only went over it once. I wanted to purchase the diesel but the price was about 2000 more than what I purchased. They were running a special on the gas burners so I got it for 7800. It along with my Dixie 44" I can knock out some properties pretty quick. I don't know how service on Deere is in your kneck of the woods, but around here I can leave you wanting.

tomo
04-29-2006, 08:35 PM
I personally think you're comparing opposite ends of the choices available when you compare Toro to JD.

I was just looking at a Toro in Cincinnati this week. It had the 60" deck with the Kubota diesel. I'd like to have it. But I didn't really need it.
It had the adjustable baffle for wet or mulching mowing.
It said TORO COMMERCIAL on it. That's is a grade above the TORO PRO line.

After 30 years of cutting grass I've gravitated to all Toro Commercial mowers. They're more expensive to buy but it pays off in the long run.

Dave
Dave, thankyou for your input. Toro/exmark xp 27 diahatsu is still sold in this country[exmark has deleted and replaced with gas chassis & kubota eng to stream line product range]. In this country the xp27 is regarded as domestic series,dissapoiting considering few home owners would purchase it!!!! Unusal toro marketing once again.Problem is,will this machine be obselete once new commercial Zrt becomes available apparently very good but UNPROVEN. Most contracters are reasonablly happy with the xp27{more hp would be nice [look into kubota 23/27 diahatsu only 5% difference remember HP is measured differently in some parts of the world.] Enough of the old machine, NEW TORO is a commercial unit but still very little info around. JD 997 regarded by jd as commercial unit and there is some limmited oz knowledge . Jd unit has a habbit of clogging radiater screens to quickly. Speaking to toro the other day and their commercial machines do this also in bad cond.Is this a result of having a side/rear mounted radiator. XP has atop mounted rad . CHoices Choices ?? NOBODY WANTS TO BE GUINEA PIG .... ZERO DOWN TIME IS THE AIM TORO COMMERCIAL IS THE PREFFERED UNIT Many thanks Tomo

tomo
04-29-2006, 09:14 PM
Just purchased and Toro Z-Master with a 27hp Kohler and 60in. deck. Did not purchase the bagger, will do so for fall leaves. All I can say is that it is a great mower, handles the hills well and cuts great. I put it to the test the second day I had it doing a mow job for a contractor who had a spec house on an acre and a half with weeds up to 18" high. It didn't even hesitate and I only went over it once. I wanted to purchase the diesel but the price was about 2000 more than what I purchased. They were running a special on the gas burners so I got it for 7800. It along with my Dixie 44" I can knock out some properties pretty quick. I don't know how service on Deere is in your kneck of the woods, but around here I can leave you wanting.
Hello, Thankyou for the response,it is appreciated.Diesel $2000 yes yes yes Air coolled petrol ,fuel cost , high maintenance coolling fins, downtime , very short life compared to a diesel , compare pedigree of eng maker, recomendations by eg W....... petrol equiped turn your machines over regularly,diesel for the long term owner [long term to most makers 1000 to 2000 hrs ] As my previous career was in the light & heavy industries hrs this low would be UNACCEPTABLE . Remmember to calculate TOTAL LIFE COST on all your machines , you will be suprised!!! Thanks Tomo

Mickhippy
04-29-2006, 09:15 PM
Hey Tomo, check these threads......

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=121319&highlight=blocked

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=125782&highlight=blocked

Im sure Tony will click in here later anyway but from what I hear, as long as its SD 997, the screen stay's pretty clear. Just the RD deck was the problem. (Or one of the problems with his first machine)

Anyway, read through those threads and maybe do a seach under Tonyr. Theres plenty of stuff about the JD!

Hope that helps!

Envy Lawn Service
04-30-2006, 12:33 AM
tomo,

You have me confused... here in the US the Toro's now have the Turbo Force deck. There are two diesels... a 27hp Diahatsu, which they have had since the old SFS decks... and a new offering with the 23hp Kubota. Other than the engine they are the same.

Anyways, I would not consider the 997 PERIOD.

You really can't go wrong with either Toro with the Turbo Force deck. Geez, I don't know which diesel engine I would get either. Probably the Kubota.

Tonyr
04-30-2006, 01:59 AM
like Mick said, the rear discharge 997 was having the rear screen clog and overheat, complete disaster of a machine.

The new replacement side discharge deere, 60'' deck, is awesome, zero issues and problems, no rear screen clogging....

leave the rear discharge alone, the side discharge, highly recommended.

I am very interested in Toro's new stuff, this company is making good gear these days, the Z588E I had was a true workhorse.

tomo
04-30-2006, 05:19 AM
tomo,

You have me confused... here in the US the Toro's now have the Turbo Force deck. There are two diesels... a 27hp Diahatsu, which they have had since the old SFS decks... and a new offering with the 23hp Kubota. Other than the engine they are the same.

Anyways, I would not consider the 997 PERIOD.

You really can't go wrong with either Toro with the Turbo Force deck. Geez, I don't know which diesel engine I would get either. Probably the Kubota.
To Envy, Yes the subject of Toro/Exmark and there model changes:dizzy: in oz.Rang Exmark on advice for previous thread advised 27diahatsu series discontinued reinvented as 23hp kubota in mid size frame.In oz local domestic dealer for TORO we see this machine [exmark ]branded asTORo.Exmark advised toro do come out of the same building but managed seperately.Cross over branding . Once again T/ex maketing very average. SOLUTION Fit large industrial eng {1.2-1.5Ltrs} to 27hpframe. Improve machine as required to do so [to take extra torque]problem solved.27Hp frame cheap to maintain simple & effective.Hyraulics not OEM is good. Machine is not perfect but still good . {reasonable cost} IT WOULD BE A GOOD PACKAGE IF THE HP WAS BETTER It will be interesting to compare 27hp diesel [domestic range] to new Commercial ZTR as listed on toro web /innovations .THANKS for your opinion Tomo. :waving:

Envy Lawn Service
04-30-2006, 09:04 PM
Ohhh... OK, so... (using US eXmark codes) the 27hp is on the XS (Larger Frame) and the 23hp is on an upgraded standard Lazer Z frame?

I do understand there is a bit more in-breeding between Toro and eXmark in oz.
(confusing for us)

In the US the rear half of the machine is pretty much the same between Toro and eXmark. The front half different. Different frame section and different deck (Turbo Force/Triton). As far as engine offerings, over here it's all the same except eXmark does not offer Kawasaki on the large frame machines, and Toro does not offer the big Briggs engines.

However, there is one thing you might want to check on. Here in the US there is one more engine option difference. Here you can Get a 25hp Kubota on an eXmark with a 60" Triton deck on the largest (XS) frame. So you might want to check on that.

In the end though, I have to wonder WHY they didn't just do the 28hp Kubota engine. But the 21,23,25hp Kubota's are no slugs either. The 22hp MaxTorque Kubota diesels they put on the 322D and 722D Grasshoppers are beasts.

tomo
04-30-2006, 10:14 PM
Ohhh... OK, so... (using US eXmark codes) the 27hp is on the XS (Larger Frame) and the 23hp is on an upgraded standard Lazer Z frame?

I do understand there is a bit more in-breeding between Toro and eXmark in oz.
(confusing for us)

In the US the rear half of the machine is pretty much the same between Toro and eXmark. The front half different. Different frame section and different deck (Turbo Force/Triton). As far as engine offerings, over here it's all the same except eXmark does not offer Kawasaki on the large frame machines, and Toro does not offer the big Briggs engines.

However, there is one thing you might want to check on. Here in the US there is one more engine option difference. Here you can Get a 25hp Kubota on an eXmark with a 60" Triton deck on the largest (XS) frame. So you might want to check on that.

In the end though, I have to wonder WHY they didn't just do the 28hp Kubota engine. But the 21,23,25hp Kubota's are no slugs either. The 22hp MaxTorque Kubota diesels they put on the 322D and 722D Grasshoppers are beasts.
Hi, Envy great comments as you mentioned . Go one better and easy for Toro just fit the 28hp1.1ltr from Grasshopper to xp frame .Oh such an easy solution !!!!!!!!! TORO must have hearing problems HA HA Dissappointing. [ xp classed by toro as domestic unit ] In the new commercial zrt you could then spec as 35hp giving operators real choice . Kubota engines for every body eg small ,medium ,large hey presto a good diesel range. Not holding my breath. Also considering grasshopper alas alloy spindle housings ARGH and muti layer deck [great for strenght but bad for rust between layers i suspect ] I mow within hrs of it raining . Put the 26 inch tyres on the rear [slightly more top speed equivilent to current toro 19km/hr ,unlikely to mow at faster speeds ,they are not tractor mowers ] tapered roller brgs front caster pivots & wheels plus deck spindles??? Model is 400 series 28hp 60 inch zrt . Thanks Tomo

lawnspecialties
04-30-2006, 10:20 PM
The biggest reason I haven't pushed for a diesel (and I love the power and torque) is weight. If you're cutting a lot of wet areas, that sounds like soft ground to me. What a bunch of ruts we're talking here.:dizzy:

Tonyr
04-30-2006, 10:32 PM
dunno about smaller diesels, but after having a 31hp, it is perfect on a 60'' deck, especially if doing heavy cutting, or very big jobs, I can get the 31 even working just cutting bermuda, or couch to aussies, if I made mowers, I'd go no smaller than 30 hp on a 60'' deck machine diesel.....and on a 72'' deck, 35hp......the small fortune we pay, surely manufacturers can give us more than we may need but this would mean machines last longer, and sales go down.....so they give just enough power to get the average jobs done.

I thought my toro with 28hp efi kohler on a 60'' TFD was powerful, it doesn't even compare to a 31hp diesel on a 60'' deck deere, and I would not go smaller, the current power to deck combo on my 997 is bloody great.

Toro are meant to be bringing out a New rear discharge ZTR, now, they have seen and know about issues with heating and liquid cooled engines with RD decks, be very interesting to see how they get it better, I'm getting out of this industry, but I'm going to keep my eye out on this, I still believe in the future RD decks will rule for safety reasons, or catcher set ups, but side discharge will be gone....in time. Especially with guys doing govnt. work, commercial etc.....it is even stipulated here by councils they want contractors to run rear discharge decks, crap cut quality, but safer.

so if the trend is starting down under, it will definetly get you guys.....I'll bet yas a six pack lol.

tomo
04-30-2006, 10:36 PM
The biggest reason I haven't pushed for a diesel (and I love the power and torque) is weight. If you're cutting a lot of wet areas, that sounds like soft ground to me. What a bunch of ruts we're talking here.:dizzy:
I draw the line:nono: at wet soft ground usally a day off:rolleyes: {it really depends on the client and there turf appearance expectations].Eg industrials or hi profile. The wosrt part to mowing in bad conditions is getting bogged:hammerhead: lots of messy fun . Thanks Tomo

oldturf
04-30-2006, 11:04 PM
I think you are making a big mistake by ruling out the 997- I have always been a huge Toro fan and have two 27 hp Zs that I use all the time, but, since I purchased a 997 with a 72'' deck,I am completely sold on the 997. It will mow 10 acres in the time the toro with the 62'' deck will mow 6 and it does a great job of mowing. The thing is built like a tank and the hyd. PTO is solid and I think will last forever. I mow big areas and the 72'' deck is great even in heavy grass, it is amazing. But, I have to have the smaller decks in the rougher areas. I don't think that you can go wrong with any of the Toro machines except that I believe that they are putting a diesel engine on a frame with other components that will not last as long as the engine. I like both brands and prefer the Toro over the other Deere Zs, but in my opinion the 997 is way above anything that they have to offer in Zs. Whatever you do I don't think that you will be unhappy with either one. The 997 is quite a bit more productive on large areas and over comes any cost difference. Good Luck.

tomo
05-01-2006, 12:47 AM
I think you are making a big mistake by ruling out the 997- I have always been a huge Toro fan and have two 27 hp Zs that I use all the time, but, since I purchased a 997 with a 72'' deck,I am completely sold on the 997. It will mow 10 acres in the time the toro with the 62'' deck will mow 6 and it does a great job of mowing. The thing is built like a tank and the hyd. PTO is solid and I think will last forever. I mow big areas and the 72'' deck is great even in heavy grass, it is amazing. But, I have to have the smaller decks in the rougher areas. I don't think that you can go wrong with any of the Toro machines except that I believe that they are putting a diesel engine on a frame with other components that will not last as long as the engine. I like both brands and prefer the Toro over the other Deere Zs, but in my opinion the 997 is way above anything that they have to offer in Zs. Whatever you do I don't think that you will be unhappy with either one. The 997 is quite a bit more productive on large areas and over comes any cost difference. Good Luck.
Hello, thankyou 4 the comments ,you mentioned jd at 10 acres to toro at 6 acres that is aBIG difference 1/Is it ground speed 2/engine power over cut size eg diahatsu27 .950 ltr over 60 inch versus yanmar 31 1.3ltr over 72inch sounds like extra deck size accounts 4 70% of the diff and good pwr /torque 4 30% approx. End of day toro xp is slightly under powered....no other option . Experienced toro cust support great /// jd great machine, cust support Hmmmmm jury still out on this one Thanks Tomo

Tonyr
05-01-2006, 03:08 AM
good point re Australian deere customer support......there is buggerall, I found that out, deere corp don't care, their dealers, well......hmmmmmmm, er, lets just say, care factor could be better lol.

Tomo, a guy down here a lot of us aussies know has an exmark, 72'' deck, 27 diahatsu, he does parks, developmentsetc like me, only on a massive scale, has 2 scags, tractor etc, runs a crew etc....ok, he says the thing cuts nice, very nice, wider deck is great for trimming around trees etc, for well maintained grass it is great......but mowing heavy couch, wet etc, it has not the guts.....he came up here awhile ago for bbq, drove my deere, loved it.

he was cutting long thick crap easy.....he said his exmark could never do that.

his 60'' scags though will cut anything, he loves the ugly damn things.

so, from a guy with over 20 years of cutting experience who runs a big biz, with multiple machines, when he says the exmark is a good cutter, but lacks power in heavy cutting, debate done lol.....remember, the guys here don't cut in our conditions, and many doin't understand over here we have to cut short grass, to long grass, not just lawns, different industry.

next point...exmark is cheap to buy....but it's only a 27hp diesel.....rather own a 28hp efi kohler, unless the thing will mow easy work all of the time.

it has been mentioned here, the hustler diesel ztr is eventually going to have their new XR-7 deck, that deck would be good here with it's adjustable front deck edge, this mower I think with hustler's good customer service, even over here it is good, is a machine I'd buy, 34hp cat engine.....not pretty, but tough lol.

my last comments....Toro stuff these days is very good.
Toro dealers are generally good, some great some ok....

exmark sold by toro here.....I demoed one, was ok, my toro was as good, nothing special. but was only $24k for a diesel, that was cheap then.

but I remember you saying something about trim amount on toros or exmarks....gotta watch that, but my deere has no issue with a 60'' deck, nor my toro 60'' deck, lots of trim on the left.

I reckon a 60'' deck is much more versatile than a 72'' for contractors, I reckon a 27hp diesel is underpowered for this country, compare the torque to the yanmar.....nufff said.

27hp might just be good enough on a 60'' deck, but if you compared my deere to the exmark, both 60'' decks, you'd buy the deere. the diesel deere is built so beafy, 100% true commercial, a lot beafier than any exmark or toro I've ever seen.

deere....this company in this country imo stink. if you don't have a great deere dealer, do not buy one.....I've been to hell and back with these guys, if you buy a mower with probs, the company turns its back, only the dealer can activate action, if they don't bother to stand up for you.....lets just say, things get nasty.

people on this forum always say, it ain't always the brand, it is the after sales support, I have learnt the hard way they are correct.

I'd buy the deere over any toro etc as far as mowers go, big statement, I loved my last toro, great dealer.....

the 997 side discharge deere 60'' deck is in my opinion the best in this big heavy league at this time, once hustler put on their new deck, then it will have serious competition.

I demoed the hustler with 72'' side discharge deck, old style design, good on lawns, no good cutting rhodes grass, Mick who posted here earlier bought a petrol one, loves it, and he does rough work, so......comes down to, so many good machines, how do you decide! good luck!

tomo
05-01-2006, 04:55 AM
good point re Australian deere customer support......there is buggerall, I found that out, deere corp don't care, their dealers, well......hmmmmmmm, er, lets just say, care factor could be better lol.

Tomo, a guy down here a lot of us aussies know has an exmark, 72'' deck, 27 diahatsu, he does parks, developmentsetc like me, only on a massive scale, has 2 scags, tractor etc, runs a crew etc....ok, he says the thing cuts nice, very nice, wider deck is great for trimming around trees etc, for well maintained grass it is great......but mowing heavy couch, wet etc, it has not the guts.....he came up here awhile ago for bbq, drove my deere, loved it.

he was cutting long thick crap easy.....he said his exmark could never do that.

his 60'' scags though will cut anything, he loves the ugly damn things.

so, from a guy with over 20 years of cutting experience who runs a big biz, with multiple machines, when he says the exmark is a good cutter, but lacks power in heavy cutting, debate done lol.....remember, the guys here don't cut in our conditions, and many doin't understand over here we have to cut short grass, to long grass, not just lawns, different industry.

next point...exmark is cheap to buy....but it's only a 27hp diesel.....rather own a 28hp efi kohler, unless the thing will mow easy work all of the time.

it has been mentioned here, the hustler diesel ztr is eventually going to have their new XR-7 deck, that deck would be good here with it's adjustable front deck edge, this mower I think with hustler's good customer service, even over here it is good, is a machine I'd buy, 34hp cat engine.....not pretty, but tough lol.

my last comments....Toro stuff these days is very good.
Toro dealers are generally good, some great some ok....

exmark sold by toro here.....I demoed one, was ok, my toro was as good, nothing special. but was only $24k for a diesel, that was cheap then.

but I remember you saying something about trim amount on toros or exmarks....gotta watch that, but my deere has no issue with a 60'' deck, nor my toro 60'' deck, lots of trim on the left.

I reckon a 60'' deck is much more versatile than a 72'' for contractors, I reckon a 27hp diesel is underpowered for this country, compare the torque to the yanmar.....nufff said.

27hp might just be good enough on a 60'' deck, but if you compared my deere to the exmark, both 60'' decks, you'd buy the deere. the diesel deere is built so beafy, 100% true commercial, a lot beafier than any exmark or toro I've ever seen.

deere....this company in this country imo stink. if you don't have a great deere dealer, do not buy one.....I've been to hell and back with these guys, if you buy a mower with probs, the company turns its back, only the dealer can activate action, if they don't bother to stand up for you.....lets just say, things get nasty.

people on this forum always say, it ain't always the brand, it is the after sales support, I have learnt the hard way they are correct.

I'd buy the deere over any toro etc as far as mowers go, big statement, I loved my last toro, great dealer.....

the 997 side discharge deere 60'' deck is in my opinion the best in this big heavy league at this time, once hustler put on their new deck, then it will have serious competition.

I demoed the hustler with 72'' side discharge deck, old style design, good on lawns, no good cutting rhodes grass, Mick who posted here earlier bought a petrol one, loves it, and he does rough work, so......comes down to, so many good machines, how do you decide! good luck!
Thanks Tonyr for your response , 1/ Had some troulbe with an engine spoke to cust service USA 30 times over a set period . Even consulted with engineer . Suggestions were made ,problem was disscussed , engine correction made problem solved. THIS WAS NOT WARRANTY just a problem.Thanks to H VERY GOOD CUST RELATIONS. NOTICE to the wanna bees do not abuse cust service it is a valued asset. 2/ the machine with no trim side was the HUSTLER diesel rear wheel to wheel measurement ,same as deck size 60 inch approx. A deck with no reach would limit some of my jobs. On the surface reading from specs wh to wh measurment is better suited to 72inch. Approx 5 -6 in either side . XP 60 deck WH to WH 53 Have to ask Hustler about this? 3/ Which model scags ,apparantly the pto shaft models run American Gearbox Co boxes, not overly impressed with them.I have to confirm this. The boxes appear on other brands of machine. Diesel uses pto system . Hyraulic drive or cheap belt system pref . Heavy duty pto shaft drive any one? Thanks Tomo