Hard Start Trouble

[FIXDISS]

Have A Kohler 15.5 Hp Single Cyl. Model Cv155-41567 On Craftsman Model 917.271022 Lawn Tractor. Having Trouble With Getting Starter To Turn Engine Past Compression Stoke. Have Tried New Battery And Even Then It Hesitates On First Revolution And May Or May Not Spin Afterwards. My Question Is Could This Be Valve Adjustment Issue Or Just A Weak Starter ? I Noticed Starter Heats Up Rather Quickly When Trying To Start Also .

[oldrustycars]

i would remove and clean all battery connections, dirty connections cause high amperage, resulting in a hot starter. remove the spark plug and spin the engine over, see if any oil or gas comes out. is this the first time this year you've tried to start it?

[FIXDISS]

I Actually Helped A Neighbor To Get It Started A Few Weeks Ago After Having Been In A Make-shift Shed For Over A Year. It Has Been Used This Season Once But Still W/hard Start. Have Removed Plug And Spun Engine Over And No Discharge There. I Also Pulled Cover From Ohv And Apparently This Engine Has Hydraulic Lifters As Rocker Arms Will Compress A Bit When Not Running.i Am Thinking Maybe The Owner Has Burned Up Starter Trying To Start With Weak Battery And It Just Won't Turn Over This High Compression Engine .

[oldrustycars]

i'd hate to suggest a starter without knowing if thats the trouble, i bet its over $100. i'll see if i can find out how many amps that starter should draw...do you have access to an amp meter? you could also take the starter off the engine and hook a known good battery up to it. it should just about jump off the workbench. if the engine isnt loaded with any liquids (im assuming the oil level is correct, and no gas in the cylinder), and it runs good once it does start (you dont have an engine about to be locked up) and ALL the connections for the battery are clean and tight, the starter is about all thats left.

[FIXDISS]

BTW,I an a new user here for the 1st time today and just wanted to say thanks for your response to my questions. I just recently found this site and was quite impressed with the responses to other guests by especicailly you and restrorob. I got lots of good info form you 2 as well as many others. I am just a guy that likes to fool around with small engines in spare time and help a neighbor if I can.

[FIXDISS]

I have an amp meter. I also had starter off and hooked to a new battery and it torqued a bit in my hand,enough to kick drive out but it retracted after top speed from spring pressure in drive unit. Only ran it 5 seconds or so. I put that starter in my lil fridge in garage where i keep frosty beverages and chilled it for 2 hrs , re-mounted it and was able to get engine started. Ran like a top.

[oldrustycars]

well, Retrorob is the expert here. i havent been working day to day in a small engine shop for 10 years. i currently do side jobs and fill in at a couple shops. this engine may have a compression release of some sort, not sure if it would be enough to keep it from cranking. we used to eliminate them on Briggs engines all the time and didnt have trouble. but if you refrigerated your starter and it then started, i'd say you're hot on the trail. and im guessing 30-50 amps draw cranking, with a fully charged battery. less is "probably" a bad starter, more "probably" engine trouble.

[FIXDISS]

Thanks again. Will check it with amp meter and let you know what happens.I have seen valves out of adjustment on Briggs cause hard start on ohv engine and was able to adjust them and correct problem. Just wasn't sure if this engine had any way of adjusting vales . One other point is I cannot manually turn the engine on compression stroke by hand at the air intake screen on flywheel cover. That is why I was suspicious of valve setting. What do you think of that ?

[Restrorob]

So, How did it start after the starter warmed back up ?

You do have one of these in that engine and could be acting up, I just replaced a cam in this same engine a couple weeks ago.
Just something to keep in mind.

[FIXDISS]

I was afraid of that .From what little details I have been able to find I had read the ACR was internal and not accessible without tearing down engine.Am I correct about hydraulic lifters in this engine ? I had pulled ohv cover off and pushed on rockers and could feel spongey action.

[FIXDISS]

re:starting after starter warmed up ? I ran engine for about 10 min. shut it off and it restarted but it was late so I didn't want to rile the neighbors and called it quits for the night. May not get to check it again til weekend but will certainly keep in touch.

[Restrorob]

.Am I correct about hydraulic lifters in this engine ?


Thats correct, They are hydraulic and you want to make sure you only use a 10w30 engine oil.

[FIXDISS]

Thanks restrorob. From looks of oil it needs an oil change. Gonna change oil see what happens.Maybe it's sludged and causing acr to malfuction. Do you reccomend an engine flush method ? And in case you didn't see it in previous threads , I apprecciate your response. This is a great site !

[Restrorob]

NO, Do not flush this engine with anything, You don't want anything left in the pan to get into the lifters other than oil. Just run engine till warm then drive the left side tires up on a couple of short 2x4's, This will direct the oil and any sludge to the drain plug then let it drain until nothing at all comes out.

No problem, I enjoy helping when possible.

[oldrustycars]

rob, would the compression release on these prevent the starter from spinning the engine? i dont know how many Briggs engines i've increased the valve lash on to eliminate the compression release, to get a few more hours out of a tired engine. obviously this engine has a much more sophisticated system.

[Restrorob]

rob, would the compression release on these prevent the starter from spinning the engine?

Yes It could depending on battery and starter condition, With a non adjustable valve train one can't bypass the release as you did on a worn out Briggs.These engines run in the neighborhood of 160 to 190 lbs. compression so without the release it makes it very difficult to spin over.

[FIXDISS]

Hey Rob,
got the chance to fool around with this Kohler 15.5 again this weekend and still can't get it to spin without booster cables to p/u truck with engine running and have to hand turn engine backwards so starter can get a run at compression stroke. Gonna try and score a starter form local shop before investing in a new one . If that don't do it then it must be the ACR. ????

[Restrorob]

. If that don't do it then it must be the ACR. ????

Is it really hard to spin grabbing the grass screen with your hands ? Have you removed both belts from the crankshaft and tried it ?

If it's really hard to spin by hand and you did take the belts off then the ACR is the next step.

[FIXDISS]

Is it really hard to spin grabbing the grass screen with your hands ? Have you removed both belts from the crankshaft and tried it ?

If it's really hard to spin by hand and you did take the belts off then the ACR is the next step.

BTW CAN YOU REFERENCE THE P/N FOR STARTER ? MODEL CV15S-41567.THINK IT IS 25-098-04 BUT DID NOT SEE SPECIFIC LISTING FOR 15.5 HP.

[Restrorob]

I don't know what the deal is but I went to a on-line store with E-parts look-up and got the number you posted, Then I went to my Kohler Dealer's site and it states part # 25 098 07-S and fits many engines ranging from CV12.5 to CV675. I havn't had any problems looking up parts on the Dealer's site so I would go with the number I posted.

[Jman]

The 25 098 04 supercedes up to the 25 098 07-S

[FIXDISS]

Well guys,looks like I really screwed the pooch on this 15.5 Kohler. I was fooling around with valve train and it seems I allowed push rods to fall out of rockers and now best I can figure since I spun engine over with plug out the lifters are pumped up to max and therefore the valves do not seat when reassembled.I noticed in schematic of engine there was supposed to be a guide plate mounted under rocker pivot bolts and it was missing.That is why I originally loosened the rockers. Someone else had been into this engine before I started dealing with it but I could certainly use some advice at this point as to the next step to correct my mistake and then get the rocker guide plate that is missing ,install it and get this thing back to owner in running condition. :hammerhead:

[Restrorob]

Make sure the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder before installing the guide plate and rockers. Once everything is installed with the piston down let the engine sit still without moving for about a half hour, Then with the plug out spin the engine over by hand a couple times re-install the plug and fire it off.
The lifters will bleed themselves down while sitting a little bit. Installing the rockers with the piston at t.d.c could bend the push rods as the valves open while tightening the rockers. Rocker torque is 110 in.lbs.

[FIXDISS]

Thanks . Gonna give that a shot as soon as I can get the valve guide plate. I was afraid the lifters would not bleed off and I was gonna get introduced to the innards of this thing big time.

[Restrorob]

I was afraid the lifters would not bleed off and I was gonna get introduced to the innards of this thing big time.

Naaaa, It'll work. I do it all the time.

Good Luck

[FIXDISS]

Hey Rob, was looking at schematics on kohler engine site and noticed not all engines in that class used the guide plate,ie the non adjustable valve train, so maybe previous person didn't leave it out after all. whaddaya think ?

[Restrorob]

Below is a pic. of the Head for the model and spec. you posted, It's from my Dealer's web-site. The part # is 12 146 13 for the plate.

[FIXDISS]

HEY ROB, Thanks for the reply. Just out of curiosity I stopped by an authorized Kohler service center and according to their computer there is no guide plate on this engine as it has a revise rocker pivot (#37 in illustration). The revised rocker pivot is a what they refer to as cylindrical shape and is self centering eliminating the need for guide plate.Just thought this might be useful info for you and others in the future.Gonna try installing valve train and allow lifters to bleed down as you suggested and hopefully it will be fine. Thanks again.....FIXDISS..

[Restrorob]

there is no guide plate on this engine as it has a revise rocker pivot

OOPS, I forgot about that update. It's a little difficult to keep track of all the changes they make from year to year.
Just for the record here is a copy of that parts bulletin.

Take Care

[FIXDISS]

OK.One more question. There is a small hole in that pivot maybe 1/16th inch. does that go to top right or to bottom left and does it mount the same on both intake and exhaust side ?

[Restrorob]

Below is all the service manual states about re-installing rockers so I would say it doesn't matter where the holes are. I havn't done as much of this kind of work on the smaller Commands as I have the twins, So I would just go with the service manual and not worry about the holes.

[FIXDISS]

OK. I found a good picture . Looks like intake it goes up and exhaust goes down. Thanks :hammerhead:

[oldgreygox33]

I keep thinking bad battery, not holding a charge. Bad battery most of the time will not turn the motor over past the compression stroke.

[FIXDISS]

Below is all the service manual states about re-installing rockers so I would say it doesn't matter where the holes are. I havn't done as much of this kind of work on the smaller Commands as I have the twins, So I would just go with the service manual and not worry about the holes.
Thanks Rob,
I reassembled as you suggested and everything worked out fine. Still have the hard start problem so looks like I will have to replace cam/ACR assy. Any idea about estimate on parts ?(cam assy and gasket set ) :dizzy: :hammerhead:

[FIXDISS]

I keep thinking bad battery, not holding a charge. Bad battery most of the time will not turn the motor over past the compression stroke.
Already replaced with new and fully charged battery so I think I can scratch that off checklist.

[Restrorob]

You shouldn't need a gasket set Just cam kit part number 12 010 20-S which I couldn't get a good list price on but will guess in the $60 to $70 dollar range and the pto crank seal part # 12 032 03-S for $3.79. There is no pan or sump gasket, I use loctite gasket eliminator on all engines, hydro pumps and gear boxes that don't have gaskets and never had any leaks. Don't be surprised if you find the release arm laying in the bottom of the pan, Thats where I found the one I replaced last month.

Good Luck

[FIXDISS]

You shouldn't need a gasket set Just cam kit part number 12 010 20-S which I couldn't get a good list price on but will guess in the $60 to $70 dollar range and the pto crank seal part # 12 032 03-S for $3.79. There is no pan or sump gasket, I use loctite gasket eliminator on all engines, hydro pumps and gear boxes that don't have gaskets and never had any leaks. Don't be surprised if you find the release arm laying in the bottom of the pan, Thats where I found the one I replaced last month.

Good Luck
Thanks. Any chance the spring has simply fallen off ? :dizzy:

[Restrorob]

Anythings possible, I believe thats what happened to the one I did and it let the arm swing out and catch the block then broke it off the cam.

[FIXDISS]

Thanks again. On another subject; Have you noticed an increasing problem with water in fuel systems and would you agree that a possible cause is the more common use of plastic fuel containers and fuel tanks ? My theory is plastic tends to expand and contract more due to temperature changes and actually causes moisture to form in these containers ? It seems that evryone I know gets water in the float bowl or the fuel body of 2cycle carbs and just thought I would throw this out there for discussion. :hammerhead:

[Restrorob]

I can agree with that theory as with any storage container that is not air tight will allow condensation to build up. I even have the same problem in the engine crankcases on brand new Dixie Choppers that are driven in and out the shop daily. Condensation will build up and turn the oil a cream color and raise the oil level because the engine is not warmed up enough to burn it out. So now the guys are letting them run at idle for 15 or so minutes to get to operating temperature to remove the condensation. A lot of the water I see in fuel systems are from the units being left outside or on a trailer in weather and the rest is probably from being stored in a closed up storage building with the fuel can.