ZTR's & Walk Behind's To Heavy !

[eXcel Lawn]

I came to the conclusion years ago that commercial ZTR's and walk behind mowers are to heavy for residential lawn applications. Continuous use causes ruts & breaking irrigation heads is often. Also seems that most commercial operators are reckless and run into houses, decks, trees, tree roots, etc, etc, etc.

Most residential customers are weary of big commercial equipment from the beginning. They just feel like they have no other choice because they are convinced that all companies use this equipment.

So, a few years ago I capitalized on this. I took a chance and bought 4 nice 21" commercial units, and the other typical needed power equipment.

I made flyers explaining my service using the smaller equipment and made the fears seem a reality in my writings. I charged $60 minimum for a typical 4,000 to 7,000 square foot lawn. I placed these flyers in choice communities. In 3 years I have accumulated 75 accounts. Myself and 2 employees finish all work in 4 or 5 days depending how hard we work. All lawns are mowed weekly ( all 75 have irrigation and fertilizer applications ). I gross around 18k a month and pay my employees $600 each a week. As you can imagine I have a very nice bank and an even nicer savings account )

My equipment costs are minimal.. I average 2 new mowers a year.

You might think I'm over charging but these customers were willing to pay more money to have their lawn cut the way they used to cut it. As you can imagine I targed older clients in the Johnson County Kansas region.

[1MajorTom]

$60.00 for 4,000 square foot?

I don't see people around here even doing 4,000 square feet with a ztr. They probably do use a 21 inch, not even a 36 walk on a yard that small. And I can guarantee no one around here would pay 60 bucks.

Sounds like you are doing fine in your area though. Congrats!

[eXcel Lawn]

85% of my clients are 7,000sq, only a few are 4,000.

Seems like they cram these 1/2 million $$ homes as close together as possible.. then they shove as much landscape in there as possible.

You would be surprised what retired people with lots of money will pay for piece of mind. Most of my clients used other commercial services in the past and received bad service. Most picky people hate a lot of things about big walk behinds. It pisses people off that they pay a company $30 or so for 5 or 10 minutes of work. Most walk behind operators also rip the turf on turns and refuse to bag also. The complaints go on and on. I just took advantage of those errors.

[65hoss]

You don't think those little tires on a 21" don't make ruts? They can make some very unsightly ruts. I personnally don't like the looks of all those little tire marks, it doesn't look as smooth. BUT, I'm glad you found a niche that works well for you. Keep up the good work. :)

[lawnman_scott]

I dont agree, commercial properties have sprinklers also, and they will get ruts a s well, if you dont change your pattern once in a while, but im sure your doing great. I know of quite a few people who would probably pay more for that type of service around here. Its not for me though, when they come out with a riding weedeater ill be the first on to buy one.

[eXcel Lawn]

Your right! If your not careful any repetitive movement on turf grass will leave a rut. I'm lucky enough to have clients that spend thousands annually on their lawns. They overseed every year, aerate twice, fertilize, pesticide, etc, etc, etc. So, those little wheels ride nice over a blanket of thick grass. It has been wet around here and a lot of my clients have been getting cut twice a week.

[casey]

What 21" Commercials are you using?
I can do 4000Sq feet faster with a LB commercial than with my 36 WB. I leave the Exmark in the trailer for small residentials.

[eXcel Lawn]

I started using Toro's and now I use the commercial John Deere.

One simple reason I use the John Deere ( besides its a nice cutting unit ) ... I use the JD because it is a very popular brand name and the customer associates with it. Most home owners think JD is the best unit out there.

They think im doing a better job just because my mowers are green and yellow.

[turfguy33]

:blob3: Within the last 2 years, I have realized that residentials are so, so picky that it is just easier for me to push mow, ( I mainly mulch, but do have several bagging accounts) than to hear complaints about tears in the grass or ruts. Personally, I believe the push mower actually makes the lawns of smaller size look much better. Now, whenever I place a bid on a residential up to 8000 sq feet, i automatically estimate it as a push mowed lawn, unless they want me to cut costs, then I'll place my 36' or 48 inch walk behind on it. But, as the man said, customers want a lawn that looks nice, we see it once or twice a week, they see it everyday, and have the right to have the lawn looking the way they want. Congrats on your niche in the biz. As for me though, I don't think I would want to push mow 75 accounts. I only have around 15 small residentials, and that's enough for me, guess my scag and dane made me lazy.

[kutnkru]

I have to agree with Hoss that many of the homeowner model units will leave ruts just as easily as the larger deck units.

We have adapted to using a wider rubber tire and steel rim for our trim mowers and have found the results to be rather pleasing from the input by our guys.

I wish that we were able to get that kind of $$/M SF here in our area. We do have some clients who are willing to pay extra for us not to use the deck mowers on their lawns but we are not getting what you are.

Hopefully things will continue to work out well for you in the future as well.

However, I think that as far as damage goes that its dependant upon the operator. I have a friend who uses only the z-riders and he can cut as well if not better with a 60" deck than a guy with a 36" w/b.

It all comes down to how you operate and control your machines. There have been discussions on whether a "c" style turn or a "k" turn is best, and how to avoid the divots from tight turns at the end of the pass.

Kris

[Lawn DOG]

I'm moving to Kansas!:eek:

[eXcel Lawn]

There is a lot of money in Johnson County and surrounding areas.

All my clients are within a 5 mile radius.

[lawnboy82]

over by where i am you dont get any small areas to cut like that. i do a dog pen for one lady. i dont know the dimentions, however it is about 10 feet deep, by 30 feet long. so that is what? 3M sq. ft. so for 60 dollars for that, hey i would be happy. most places around here though are about 15,000 sq ft. or more. small is about 10,000 sq ft. big for residentials is up around 4 acres or more. i have driven over lawns that have irrigation with my truck. no damage. i do work for one guy who has irrigation. i used a walk behind all the time on his place, and occasionally a ride on. guy before me always used a ride on. no problems ever. only time he said watch out would be when aerating or thatching. cause of the heads.

[MOW ED]

I'd say your doing real well filling a need in your community. It sure is interesting to see how we all do the job we do.
I don't think I could charge prices like that in my area or could I hire guys to push mow all day so I commend you.

I have had only one person want me to push mow a lawn and it was 10K sq ft. I tried it once and said no thanks.

I think lots of us like the "toy" part of mowing lawns. You know, "I got a Chopper that can mow at 12MPH" or "I have a crew that uses 3 Lazers and we do 5 acres in a half hour". Boys and girls like toys, even if we are bigger boys and girls now. Thats not all of us, but it is for a few.

My business requires me to use bigger mowers to be profitable. Simply put, I am a solo operator and I could not do what you do and make money where I am at. I am impressed with what you do.

You also stirred up an old idea that I had years ago. Imagine using the same philosophy but do your mowing with push reel mowers. The cut is great and man would you be in shape. All old people remember those mowers and I think they would pay you pretty well knowing that you are bustin your hump. The cut is pretty good also. Now I'm really going on a limb to say when you are done you can go around with the hand clippers and trim the fencelines and posts. Top it off by push brooming the walks and drive and then load your stuff into a wagon and pedal away. No Gas, no noise.

I'm not making fun of you. It is like nostalgia days at the ball park.
This is the way I started mowing when I was 9 years old. Man was I happy to see my dad come home with that Craftsman. I haven't been the same since.

Thanks for sharing your business. Good Luck.

[eslawns]

Huh?

1. A commercial mower puts less weight (per square inch) than a person does. Why do you think the tires are so big?

2. I use commercial walk behinds and demo'd two ZTR's. I am careful not to hit sprinkler heads or anything else.

If you can get the clients to bite on this, more power to you. I think I'll just keep things the way they are. What I can't see is why you would want to spend the extra effort to be so different from industry norms. If this practice were harmful to lawns, why would so many people do it this way? If you can sell it though...

[Fantasy Lawns]

That's Killer .....I wish I could average $240 per month on all my resi's ...but in the correct market I'm sure it could fly ...just not down here it won't ....but I do have to disagree about the rutting ..in the correct hands a walker or larger ztr will not rut anymore than a pushmower ...but we have a very sandy based lawn foundation which makes it very stable ...unless it rains lol ;->

[Premo Services]

Originally posted by eXcel Lawn
I came to the conclusion years ago that commercial ZTR's and walk behind mowers are to heavy for residential lawn applications. Continuous use causes ruts & breaking irrigation heads is often. Also seems that most commercial operators are reckless and run into houses, decks, trees, tree roots, etc, etc, etc.



I have been using commerecial walkbehinds for 6 years, and a ztr for 1 1/2 yrs. and I do not notice any ruts made by my mowers.I have a number of larger properties 1-3 acres and would not dream of doing them without the walkbehind,or my first choice the ztr.When I purchased the ztr all of my customers knew that I would not tear up their property.As far as I know not one sprinkler head has been ruined,I pay attention and do not run into anything.I do have one account that I picked up last year and they must of had a heavy ztr or tractor because there is some serious ruts and they only go one way, must have mowed the same direction every time.

I think that you are onto something if you could sell it to your customers.You have found a service and people want you to do it this way,and will pay for it. Good for you!!!

[RLC]

The bottom line here is that the older people think that the bigger mowers are hard on there grass. I have one guy who wants me to mow and bag every week with the smaller push mower. You are not going to tell these people anything they will not change minds. I think you have found a good thing now stick with it. Of course you will probably be call a scrub on here for it it seams that if you don't mow with a big w/b or a ztr. I think you have a good thing going keep it up.

[summitgroundskeeping]

you can't fit anything bigger on a 4,000-6,000 sq. ft. lawn than a 21" mower. And if you know how to do a lawn, big heavy commercial mowers don't tear up turf and leave ruts. I do bigger lawns so I can play with my toys. But, I do have smaller lawns I have to use only 21" mowers. The only reason I do what I do is, I love playing with my equipment, I love to cut bigger lawns, and I love the amount of money I make being 17.

[Currier]

What an excellent idea for marketing. I don't know about making the perception seem like reality in your flyer but I suppose those folks didn't really need a whole lot of convincing anyway. Many times I have wondered "what is it that can make a company differentiate itself from the competition? " Looks to me that you have found it! ...and one reason is the socio economics of Johnson county! Good job knowing your market.

How long did it take before you began getting calls? Did you get many price shoppers freaking out about your price? Just think of the unlimited potential as these customers refer others just like them...

[eXcel Lawn]

Speaking of ZTR's...

Wednesday I will close on my new house. Included in 60,000 sq. ft of turf. I think I will shop for a new ZTR. ;)

Myself and my 2 employees wear matching uniforms to work. We are very clean and presentable. We get paid good for our service and it shows. My truck and equipment are cleaned almost daily. So, I doubt anyone will call me a scrub.

You guys have valid points about big machines... but, you won't be able to convenience my clients of that.

It is supposed to rain again tomorrow... keep it coming. :)

[summitgroundskeeping]

I wish I bought John Deere stuff because people do think they are the best(even though they aren't) and won't hire me because I use Ariens and Great Dane equipment.
I'm moving to your area, because I don't have a single $60 account, $20-$40 accounts in 20-30 minutes. Plus people don't spend enough cash on their lawns here.

[eXcel Lawn]

Most of my calls come from word of mouth and they expect the higher price for this kind of maintenance.

When I show up to place a bid I present myself in such a way that they would be more surprised to hear a cheap bid.

[thelawnguy]

Originally posted by RLC
Of course you will probably be call a scrub on here for it it seams that if you don't mow with a big w/b or a ztr. I think you have a good thing going keep it up.

As I read the original post, he didnt start using 21 inch mowers to appease the customer but because he didnt know how to operate a bigger machine. Quote: "I came to the conclusion years ago that commercial ZTR's and walk behind mowers are to heavy for residential lawn applications. Continuous use causes ruts & breaking irrigation heads is often. Also seems that most commercial operators are reckless and run into houses, decks, trees, tree roots, etc, etc, etc. "

I for one have yet to run into a house deck tree break a sprinkler head etc. I just like to work 3 1/2 days and be paid for 7.

A guy in my market used to advertise heavily his use of smaller machines-he had a 21 and a 33. last year he bought a 52 and no longer needs to advertise since he discovered that, in his market anyways people wouldnt pay a premium for smaller mower or at least enough of one to justify the extra time taken.

[eXcel Lawn]

I can and have operated most machinery under the sun.

You would be surprised how fast 3 guys can mow a lawn using 21" mowers. I spend more time speaking with my clients than mowing. Customer service is my job... anyone can mow a lawn.

[thelawnguy]

Figuring overlap, 3 guys with 21 mowers should be about as fast as one guy with a 60 (assuming one of the three is mowing and not conversing). And also assume one is walking and not astride a ztr. Difference is, with the 60 one isnt paying wages, insurance, bennys, w/c, etc for two others.

But hey, whatever you find that works for you...

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by eXcel Lawn
Continuous use causes ruts & breaking irrigation heads is often. Also seems that most commercial operators are reckless and run into houses, decks, trees, tree roots, etc, etc, etc.


Breaking irrigation heads often? Why?!?!? I have never broke a sprinkler head, if you were breaking them often then I'm not sure you were using it correctly.

Most operators run into houses, trees and stuff? See above...a house is awfully big, do guys mow drunk in your area?

Glad things are working out so well! I'll stick to my big, heavy mowers, if I start running into houses I'll consider changing.

Ray

[casey]

A combination of 36 and 21 mowers work best on small residentials. If you know what your doing with a 36 you can supplement it with a 21 to get the job done fast. Some guys I see try to cut a small res with just a 36 or bigger end up taking more time and doing a worse job than I could do with a 21. You just gotta know the limitations of the BIG MOWER and not be too lazy to grab a 21.
As far as chatting with customers you can keep your customer service.
I hate it. Time chatting is money lost. Too bad you have to kiss ass to keep cusomers.

[Lee Homan]

those 21" mowers on 98 degree days with 100 percent humidity are brutal. But I agree with the original post small lawns do tend to look better when mowed with a 21" mower. I made the mistake of mowing a customers front yard with the 21" while my riding mower was being repaired and now she won't let me use anything else. She liked all the stripes.

[eslawns]

Originally posted by Lee Homan
those 21" mowers on 98 degree days with 100 percent humidity are brutal. But I agree with the original post small lawns do tend to look better when mowed with a 21" mower. I made the mistake of mowing a customers front yard with the 21" while my riding mower was being repaired and now she won't let me use anything else. She liked all the stripes.

I had a customer who wanted this a few years ago for the same reason. I told her it would cost $X more each week, since it took so much longer. Her response was something about me having used it today. She also asked if I was charging extra that day. I told her no, because it wasn't her fault the big mower broke, but having to do it that way every time was a choice on her part. I still do her lawn (with the 21), she still pays 50% more than she needs to, and it's her choice. But there's now way I would even consider doing this for the same money.

BTW, whoever said you can't use a bigger mower than 21" on a small lawn is out of it. I have less than 2600 sq ft of turf in my lawn, and I use a 36 to do it.

[geogunn]

all of this is a great discussion.

for my centavo, I don't push mow anything. if the lesco 48 won't get to it, the ole homelite st-275 will. and for the once a year or so that those wont work, the ole self propelled yazoo big wheel will.

good luck to all.

GEO

[brucec32]

I bet if one of the big commercial brands came up with a mower to bridge the gap between the smallest midsize wb's (32", 400 lbs, 10-12 hp) and 21" 6hp wb's, there would be a market for it. 21" trim mowers (110 lbs) give a good cut but are labor intensive (you walk, you steer, you back it up) and the bigger midsize are heavy/bulky for their size of cut, relative to the 21". Some of the 24, 26, and 30 inch units that are out there seem either fragile or have old fashioned drive systems and general designs. I would like to see a big 8-10.5 hp engine mounted on a 26" mower like a traditional 21" is mounted, just on a bigger scale. Anything up to 200 lbs would still be handy. I'd pay $1500 for one of these, vs. $1000 or more for a 21" commercial unit. It'd be 25% more productive. My 21" 6hp units sometimes bog down in heavy grass, too.

Many lawns just don't look as good mowed with bigger mowers. Usually the smaller the lawn, the more the big mower cut shows. Some small lawns do mow well with even a 48" ZTR, but those are the exception. Too many dips and rises over too small an area means a cut that is noticeably inferior. I'm left cutting either very small lawns with the 21", or bigger lawns with the rider and midsize wb's...there's a gap there of lawns I have to pass on.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by eslawns
I had a customer who wanted this a few years ago for the same reason. I told her it would cost $X more each week, since it took so much longer. Her response was something about me having used it today. She also asked if I was charging extra that day. I told her no, because it wasn't her fault the big mower broke, but having to do it that way every time was a choice on her part. I still do her lawn (with the 21), she still pays 50% more than she needs to, and it's her choice. But there's now way I would even consider doing this for the same money.

BTW, whoever said you can't use a bigger mower than 21" on a small lawn is out of it. I have less than 2600 sq ft of turf in my lawn, and I use a 36 to do it.

You CAN use a bigger mower on some lawns. But some show every flaw. I doubt they have much Bermuda in Portsmouth, VA, btw. You can mow with anything in cool season turf like you have there. It's the dense warm season stuff that shows flaws.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by eXcel Lawn
I can and have operated most machinery under the sun.

You would be surprised how fast 3 guys can mow a lawn using 21" mowers. I spend more time speaking with my clients than mowing. Customer service is my job... anyone can mow a lawn.

I think that's the funniest comment I've seen yet on lawnsite. More time talking than working. Must be nice.

What are they putting in the water there that has folks happy to pay $60 to have tiny lots mowed?

Btw, my 48" lazer Z mows well at a minimum of 5mph and costs about $4/hour to buy and operate. And a high quality midsize wb with a castoring sulky could mow about that fast on small lawns too. It doesn't get tired, doesn't call in sick, and doesn't get hurt. Let's see...your 3 guys at $15/hour each (incl workers comp, unemployment ins, SS, MC, etc), you're looking at $45/hour plus maybe $1/hour for your mowers. $46 vs $4 per hour in costs. I'm looking at a $42/hour spread there. You must talk really good to be worth $42/hour at it. I doubt chicks manning phone sex lines make that much for talking.

As for your comment "anyone can mow lawns"....well....anyone can talk a load of horse(stuff) too.

Celebrating my 11th year in the biz w/o running into a house or breaking a sprinkler head yet. I must be living a charmed life.

QUOTE:

<<Most of my calls come from word of mouth and they expect the higher price for this kind of maintenance.

When I show up to place a bid I present myself in such a way that they would be more surprised to hear a cheap bid.>>

That's it. This spring I start showing up at customers' homes wearing my tuxedo!

Me: Well, your lawn is small, but I will use my 21" mower on it. $60 please.

Customer: Well, frankly, we expected to pay nothing less than $100. Here, have some of this neat brown acid."

[woodycrest]

Customer service is a dying art, thats a shame.

Dave

[Ed Ryder]

$60 for 4000 to 7000 square feet? I don't believe it.

[Richard Martin]

brucec32 wrote:

I doubt they have much Bermuda in Portsmouth, VA, btw.

Why not? We have burmuda and zoysia much farther north than Portsmouth, Virginia.

From www.lawngrasses.com :

Zoysia, Bermuda and Buffalograss are three of the more commonly planted warm season grasses used in the cooler transition zone areas.

[MTR]

excel lawn, I really don't know what to say about your way of using 3 guys walking 21" mowers. I don't know if your legs and body ever feel tired and pain cutting like 75 accounts all by 21"
I have cut with 21" for so long and the late spring and the summer, early fall are the most brutal in Florida, you are working under high humidity and heat, let alone walk your trimmer and edger. Lots of water to drink in every single lawn you finished. My legs so tired by 2 pm...walked my *ss off!! I don't know how you do and keep your quality as same as the 1 st lawn of day you cut that morning.
Thanks heaven I am no loger walk in every lawn and will never go back to use 21" as primary ever again.

The cut of 21" is no no match to the cut quality of 36, 48" WB or the Z, based on my experience, besides the 21" can not do complex sides of lawn care like what the Z or WB do. That 's why there is a setup of 21-36-52 combo....just some different input, lol.

best regards,

[bubble boy]

OLD THREAD!!

and now bruces32 is replying 3 times to an old thread? WOW, cabin fever...

BUT after reading the thread, it's obviously bull...running into houses with WB's? 3 guys needing FIVE days to cut 75 props under 7000 sq. feet? are they walking backwards? i could do 50-60 myself with a 21...

and $240 a month for 7000 sq feet? BULL...you think no one with a 36" in his area would underbid to 50 a cut? they'd still be pushing $100/man hr. call me a lowballer, but i'd do it.

he was here 2 days...then got tired of trolling.

[SDlawndawg]

I can't believe so many fell for that! $60 lawn with a 21". Get a clue!

[coonman]

Glad to see someone else actually uses a 21 inch w/b. We use them on over half our yards, wish we could get 60 dollars a pop though. There is a lot of money to be made on those small lawns.

[coonman]

Originally posted by thelawnguy
Figuring overlap, 3 guys with 21 mowers should be about as fast as one guy with a 60 (assuming one of the three is mowing and not conversing). And also assume one is walking and not astride a ztr. Difference is, with the 60 one isnt paying wages, insurance, bennys, w/c, etc for two others.

But hey, whatever you find that works for you...


Agreed, a 60 would be nice if we could use it. Maybe on two accounts out 100 plus we could use it. All of our properties are gated. His market is probably full of gated lawns too. I still can't imagine people wanting to pay 60 for a small lawns like that. We average around 30 on those here. Maybe we need to move about 4 hours north.

[mowngrow]

I use a walker and two w/bs and a 21". try not to use it that much though(21"). we dont leave ruts!!!! if you change your mowing pattern regularly then you wont either. as a matter of fact in the past i had a few that was mowed w/ the 21 and was asked to be switched to that pretty yellow machine on that trailer.
but what ever works for you. take it and run with it.

[polecat63]

Wow, a ton of differing opinion out there. If you take the time to learn how to use a wb it cut much better that a 21", IMHO. I took over a lawn two season ago that was trashed by someone using a ZTR. The client was a little skeptical when I broke out the 44's, but I convinced her to give it a go. She's been one of my best clients ever since. The neighbor had some scrub using a 21" (Honda) mower for several seasons and I just picked them up. The ruts from that little noise maker are pretty nasty. The smallest mower I use is a 32" exmark and I have a 33" Troybilt 'cause it mulches like a dream. Although, if I could get people to pay $60 per 4M sq ft I'd use whatever they wanted me to.

[rodfather]

An interesting niche in the marketplace.:cool: Not for me, but I wish you $ucce$$.

[jhawk71]

Hey where in Kansas are you located. I live in Johnson county about 119th street. How about you. I run a 36" on all my customers but i am only fourteen and its all i can afford. Have had no complaints about it leaving ruts or tearing up the lawn. Actually the customers like the larger mower.
jhawk71

[Doc Pete]

Originally posted by eXcel Lawn
I came to the conclusion years ago that commercial ZTR's and walk behind mowers are to heavy for residential lawn applications. Continuous use causes ruts & breaking irrigation heads is often. Also seems that most commercial operators are reckless and run into houses, decks, trees, tree roots, etc, etc, etc.

The real problem is guy's are too lazy because it takes a bit more time, to mow the lawn in a different direction each time. This includes 90/45/33/22 degree mowing, plus opposite of each of those degrees, too. Actually, many mow guy's aren't smart enough to mow well at 22 degrees. Furthermore, the zeroturning sucks, and I do a agree that an 1,100lb ZTR is a bit heavy for a small lawn. Botttomline is if the "owners" keep paying $7 an hour to there illegal alien help that can't speak English, the job will look like "HEQQ".....
Pete

[lawnworker]

I have yet to use a 21 inch mower that had any speed to it. This is the biggest drawback to a 21. Also, the tires wear out to fast.

[lawncare3]

Originally posted by lawnworker
I have yet to use a 21 inch mower that had any speed to it. This is the biggest drawback to a 21.

The TORO personal pace is the fastest I have ever used for a mower that size and WOW can that thing move. :eek:

[Scag48]

I have 2 lawns that rut with my 36" and I switch up the pattern 90 degrees every week. Can anyone explain why it does this. BTW, it usually isn't wet when I mow it. :confused: