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Mowtown Mike
05-19-2006, 10:18 AM
Has anyone ever put in a computer chip to enhance your diesel engine performance? Will it void the warranty? Thanks Mike

oldrustycars
05-19-2006, 06:43 PM
"most" will not void the warranty, but double check. look in the diesel power magazines for road tests. diesels respond better to chips than gas engines do.....way better. many are programmable to suit your needs. my friend has one in his 7.3 powered ford F250 super duty, with an ez-dumper, and dragging a 16 foot enclosed around. better mileage, more power, he loves it. www.summitracing.com or www.jegs.com will get you a free catalog, they both have diesel performance sections.

PerennialSuccess
05-20-2006, 04:53 PM
if you drive into your dealer and that chip is plugged into the computer port, good luck getting whatever is broken covered....(engine and trans wise). All most of these chips do is take away the limitations the factory sets in order to keep the truck from burning up transmissions and what not.

Dirty Water
05-21-2006, 12:20 AM
Diesel chips do more than just remove factory limitations, they also enrich the fuel to the engine, and increase the boost pressure from the turbocharger. Anyone familiar with turbochargers knows that just a few PSI increase can create HUGE gains.

I used to have a 4 cylinder gas engine putting out nearly 300 hp thanks to a turbocharger :)

That said, don't ever let your dealer know you chipped it.

funkigreasemonki
05-22-2006, 11:32 PM
Agreed, dealers+chips="not covered" I am a member on one of the diesel boards, and many of my friends there who have chips, do not have warranties. Granted, some of these guys are nuts with the power they are putting out, but be sure the warranty won't be voided before putting the chip on. That being said, they make an amazing difference over stock, even the "mild" chips will have very noticable difference. :cool2:

oldrustycars
05-22-2006, 11:55 PM
well, i stand corrected. i know a few guys with new diesel pickups that have fiddles with the computer, maybe they put stuff back to stock before going for warranty work.

J&R Landscaping
05-23-2006, 12:17 PM
The banks six gun tuner is well worht the money! It gives you a big boost on turbo psi, fuel economy and overall power. My buddy has one on an 97 ram 2500.
When I get my diesel, a six gun tuner is going on it!!!

FearThisDeere
05-23-2006, 05:43 PM
^^^ Same here. It is the best bang for the buck.:weightlifter:

lawnspecialties
05-23-2006, 09:41 PM
Check with your dealer to see if they'll sell you a reprogrammer. I know some Ford dealerships sell Superchips stuff. I even heard there is a Chevrolet dealer down in Columbia, SC that sells new trucks already modified if you'll pay the huge price difference. If they sell it to ya', they almost always will warranty it. But, GET IT IN WRITING.

PJDiesel
05-23-2006, 09:52 PM
Depending on what truck you have (like, as if if you have a Cummins)
You can get the latest and greatest programmer that swaps your ecm program, this way if and when you need warranty work you simply return the stock programming and the dealer is non the wise. It never leaves a "fingerprint" or anything. A little pricey, but from what I hear, worth EVERY LAST PENNY.
The one I am talking about is the SMARTY it is made by a company called MAD Electronics.

Anything else is just considered a "chip" and pretty mch just alters the stock messages to and from the ecm so as to not trip overboost codes, etc.

See here for ANY diesel truck questions you may have:
www.dieseltruckresource.com

(BTW) Banks stuff is way over rated and waaaaaaay overpriced/per horsepower.

ToroLandscaper
05-23-2006, 11:01 PM
Depending on what truck you have (like, as if if you have a Cummins)
You can get the latest and greatest programmer that swaps your ecm program, this way if and when you need warranty work you simply return the stock programming and the dealer is non the wise. It never leaves a "fingerprint" or anything. A little pricey, but from what I hear, worth EVERY LAST PENNY.
The one I am talking about is the SMARTY it is made by a company called MAD Electronics.

Anything else is just considered a "chip" and pretty mch just alters the stock messages to and from the ecm so as to not trip overboost codes, etc.

See here for ANY diesel truck questions you may have:
www.dieseltruckresource.com

(BTW) Banks stuff is way over rated and waaaaaaay overpriced/per horsepower.


do you have a link to somethin like that

kc2006
05-23-2006, 11:34 PM
Don't matter if you take the chip/programmer off when you take it to a dealer. Fact is, when you add any electronics it modifies the combustion process and it will leave a different marking on the piston. Talked to a couple guys that had engine failures and ford blamed it on a programmer being used.

Best programmers for fords for the money, superchips and edge. That and make your own 10K mod (or 5.6K like I have) and it really sets it off. I put a superchips program on my truck and it only increased boost by 2psi, which equals maybe 60hp, then I flipped the switch for my 5.6K mod and it went up to 24psi (5psi increase, 7psi total over stock), huge difference at that point. It was right on the edge of defueling. No black smoke though :( think my hpop is getting weak.

MarksTLC
05-23-2006, 11:47 PM
I have a 99 Ram 2500 diesel. From stock to level 2 on the Edge Comp is a vast improvement in how the truck pulls while towing. I've only gone to level 5 once, while cruising at aaaaa 55 mph, to see what kind of kick it had. It's a lot of fun..... Anyway, I'd recommend looking at the Edge products. I've heard that Van Aiken makes a nice unit also. It depends what you want out of the upgrade and to what extent you wish to push the performance.

As for warranty.. It's an excuse for the dealer to not honor the warranty. Edge even provides the instructions for removal of their product in case of a visit to the dealer.

PJDiesel
05-24-2006, 06:55 PM
do you have a link to somethin like that
http://www.madselectronics.com/index.html

This thing is supposed to be the end all of programmers. It can read and clear codes, adjust for tire sizes, it has 9 different performance settings.

It's not going to be as aggressive as the Edge COMP mentioned, it does not change the fueling parameters beyond stock. So, despite what others might claim, it CANNOT be detected by a dealer. It is not some drag box that is going to run the hell out of your engine, it is made for "drivability" and is being touted as the best "low end" enhacement ever made.

lawnmaniac883
05-24-2006, 07:05 PM
Don't matter if you take the chip/programmer off when you take it to a dealer. Fact is, when you add any electronics it modifies the combustion process and it will leave a different marking on the piston. Talked to a couple guys that had engine failures and ford blamed it on a programmer being used.

Best programmers for fords for the money, superchips and edge. That and make your own 10K mod (or 5.6K like I have) and it really sets it off. I put a superchips program on my truck and it only increased boost by 2psi, which equals maybe 60hp, then I flipped the switch for my 5.6K mod and it went up to 24psi (5psi increase, 7psi total over stock), huge difference at that point. It was right on the edge of defueling. No black smoke though :( think my hpop is getting weak.

Umm no, I have gotta stop this nonsense now. A chip or programmer is not going to leave a different marking on the piston. Unless you swap out injectors, the spray pattern is going to be the same. A chip adds pressure and/or timing, it does not change the spray pattern on an injector.

PerennialSuccess
05-24-2006, 07:19 PM
Umm no, I have gotta stop this nonsense now. A chip or programmer is not going to leave a different marking on the piston. Unless you swap out injectors, the spray pattern is going to be the same. A chip adds pressure and/or timing, it does not change the spray pattern on an injector.
Maybe not, but there are plenty of ways to tell if a chip has been used. Excessive boost will definately blow coolant out the jug when the head gaskets are going... So maybe if you're smart enough to clean it up when it blows that will help.

PJDiesel
05-24-2006, 07:36 PM
Maybe not, but there are plenty of ways to tell if a chip has been used. Excessive boost will definately blow coolant out the jug when the head gaskets are going... So maybe if you're smart enough to clean it up when it blows that will help.
Along those lines.....
1 psi in boost might equal 10 HP, but 2 additional psi will never equal 60HP, that is just false.

Like I said before, if you ever have a question about Cummins Diesel, Diesel Truck Resource is the place to be. There are thousands of members with all different level of modifications, more information than you could ever imagine.:dizzy:

lawnmaniac883
05-24-2006, 11:47 PM
Ever heard of drive pressure? The turbo may be making 45psi of boost at X rpms but the drive pressure may be 50psi. This equates to a loss of power and LOTS of heat.

kc2006
05-25-2006, 12:46 AM
Sorry lawnmaniac. Go to ford-trucks.com and read about it, I've read of 3-4 guys that had an engine failure and the combustion markings were noticably different due to the use of a programmer. Programmers cause injectors to hit differently and at different times causing different marks.

I assume your a master tech? Or do you build prostock motors? Do you even work on your own vehicles? Sorry slick, I just don't like people throwing the BS flag on me when I'm right.

kc2006
05-25-2006, 12:47 AM
LMAO 2psi will never equal 60 hp!?!?! Go to procharger.com and read, they claim 1psi equals 25hp. Dyno sheets from engines we've built (gas) will also show 25-35hp increases per psi!

kc2006
05-25-2006, 01:24 AM
Along those lines.....
1 psi in boost might equal 10 HP, but 2 additional psi will never equal 60HP, that is just false.


See now the two people that called me out pizzed me off so bad I had to come back on.

It seems all the "diesel guru's" on this site know so much that whenever someone posts any info its always wrong and theres 50 different OPINIONS on what's right.

PJdiesel, where do you get that 1 psi of boost equals 10hp? I have multiple places to pull FACTUAL info that says your wrong. Procharger claims 25-35hp per psi, I have dyno sheets from many engines we've built (gas engines) that show 25hp mostly. What happens at 14.7psi? One of the diesel guru's answer that without going online and reading real quick.

I'll try to find the posts that show indeed that programmers and chips will cause different markings on piston tops too, because it's fact and as much as you diesel guys think you know everything about diesel (maybe you invented them?) it's true.

What's next, you can't read if a gas engine is running rich or lean by looking at the plugs? :laugh: :laugh:

I don't claim to know everything about diesels, I actually don't know much about the injection systems, but I do know about boost, I have many many boosted builds under my belt to know where I'm coming from on that. Turbo/supercharged even nitrous if you want to consider that, I've been there, done that. 10hp per psi, hahaha yea that's how the turbo 6 buicks are making 1000hp with 30psi on a 180hp n/a engine :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dirty Water
05-25-2006, 01:48 AM
Umm no, I have gotta stop this nonsense now. A chip or programmer is not going to leave a different marking on the piston. Unless you swap out injectors, the spray pattern is going to be the same. A chip adds pressure and/or timing, it does not change the spray pattern on an injector.

Higher injector rail pressure causes a different spray pattern, if you raise the pressure too much, you do not get fine atomization, same with too low of pressure. It has to be precisely calibrated with injector nozzle sizes.

I've been building boosted engines for years.

You have to remember that a lot of pressure moving at a slow speed (CFM due to restricted turbine size/manifold etc) will just cause heat. Boost pressure also needs to precisely calibrated to turbo size.

The amount of power generated from boost varies greatly, remember that you have atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi + whatever boost you are generating. The amount of power depends on many factors, such as head flow, cam duration and lift, as well as compression ratio, exhaust back pressure and flow of the turbocharger.

A engine with a high volumetric efficiency will make more power per PSI than a engine with low volumetric efficiency.

You all should pick up Maximum Boost by Corky Bell.

PJDiesel
05-25-2006, 08:26 AM
KC2006;

How in the world can boost pressure equal a difinative amount of RWHP for every engine in every application?

I submit that it CAN'T!

PJdiesel, where do you get that 1 psi of boost equals 10hp? I have multiple places to pull FACTUAL info that says your wrong. Procharger claims 25-35hp per psi, I have dyno sheets from many engines we've built (gas engines) that show 25hp mostly. What happens at 14.7psi? One of the diesel guru's answer that without going online and reading real quick.
So, then, just changing your charger to provide 10 more psi of boost will equal 250 additional HP on the dyno?:laugh:
Maybe we should all be ont he same page here, I don't know anything about gassers, don't have a need to.
In order to spin a turbo on a diesel, you need to have fuel. Won't matter a bit if you have a turbo set up to max at 50 psi, if you can't fuel it to that point it is useless to you.

Brendan Smith
05-25-2006, 04:33 PM
having worked as a service manager for quite a while, i assure you that a dealer CAN tell when vehicle programming has been altered. a vehicle is engineered to operate within certain parameters and altering those paramaters WILL shorten the life of the vehicle. you may notice gains in hp, torque, etc by altering it, but by doing so you have to acknowledge that you are shortening it's life expectancy. if you are not a dishonest person, you should not expect a dealer to warranty engine/transmission concerns if they are caused by the alteration of the programming. the flip side of this is if you have a concern not related to the programming (ac, suspension, etc), an honest dealer should not decline warranty. my policy reguarding alterations
(lifts, chips, etc) is that each warranty repair should stand on it's own merit. if you come in with a transmission problem and have a 6" suspension lift with 38" tires, that doesn't automatically mean it's not warranty. for example, gm 4L60e transmissions used to have issues with reaction sun shells breaking because they were not made out of hard enough metal. happened with stock vehicles as well as modified vehicles and was a known problem, so it would be covered. if you came in with a broken piston in a diesel with a chip, most likely it would not be warrantied as these failures are virtually unheard of.
anyway, it saddens me to see people who usually do the right thing speaking openly about commiting fraud (lets not sugar coat it) by trying to cover up that the vehicle was altered. if it was your business, how would you feel about customers trying to rip you off (because that's what it is). there are degrees of wrong, but wrong is still wrong. just because it is a mega-corporation, doesn't mean it is right. is shoplifting from wal-mart any less wrong than shoplifting from a small store or is it still wrong?
all this being said, you are more likely to get a small dealer to help you than a large group of dealers (ie Sonic Automotive, etc), especially if you buy it from them. just don't try to bs them, because they will almost always find out the truth, and then you ARE screwed.

kc2006
05-25-2006, 06:12 PM
Maximum boost by Corky Bell is an extremely good book! I've had that since it came out and I still look in it for reference.

PJ, 25hp is a baseline, it's not going to be the same for everything. 10hp per psi...that is way too low no ifs ands or buts about it. If you think about it, that programmer was set on the 75hp setting and it upped my boost 2psi...60hp seems about right to me considering my hpop is weak I believe.

But at least two others agree that spray pattern is different and markings are different with altered programs. Now I don't feel totally ******ed, just borderline stupid.

Randy J
05-26-2006, 09:08 AM
Good post Brendan. As for shortening the life of the engine however, I don't always agree - at least not with diesels. The Cummins engine is rated for much more power than it has in the Dodge application. DC detunes the engines so that transmissions won't be trashed too quickly. Upping the power, as long as driven appropriately, may have no affect other than increasing fuel mileage & power (the good thing about diesels is that almost always increasing power also increases fuel mileage - at least within reason). As for the spray pattern being different - maybe. But I still don't see anyway it will leave tell-tale marks on a piston. I could be wrong - I'm certainly no master mechanic, but it simply doesn't make sense to me. Maybe in extreme circumstances (i.e. 600HP out of a light duty truck diesel engine), but I have a hard time accepting it in the applications being discussed here. But then as Brendan said, if you're going to play, you should accept the risks and not expect for the dealer to warranty it anyway.

fiveoboy01
05-28-2006, 02:38 AM
Theoretically you could put a cork in the intake somewhere and see 50psi of boost, but you won't see any horsepower.

But, I'd agree that 10hp/lb seems low on a normal application.

mag360
05-28-2006, 11:43 PM
Increasing boost on a diesel engine does not have a significant effect on power. I doubt you'd see even 10hp per 1psi. It does bring your egt's down though which, in turn, lets you add more fuel (which is the real source of power). The trick is keeping all parameters relative.

lawnmaniac883
05-29-2006, 06:00 PM
Theoretically you could put a cork in the intake somewhere and see 50psi of boost, but you won't see any horsepower.

But, I'd agree that 10hp/lb seems low on a normal application.


Ya mean the exhaust?

High boost level in a diesel helps you move air through the engine which in turn keeps egt's down and allows you to burn more fuel.

fiveoboy01
05-29-2006, 07:09 PM
Nope, I don't mean exhaust.

Boost pressure is merely an indication of intake tract restriction.

AIRFLOW makes power, not boost.

Dirty Water
05-29-2006, 07:20 PM
Nope, I don't mean exhaust.

Boost pressure is merely an indication of intake tract restriction.

AIRFLOW makes power, not boost.

Sorry, but your confused.

Boost simply means postitive manifold pressure, essentially forcing air into the engine rather just relying on the engine to suck it in.

fiveoboy01
05-29-2006, 08:14 PM
Not confused. I aware that it's positive manifold pressure. But it's an overrated number.

I've seen cars which make X HP on a dyno. Change something downstream of the supercharger/turbo, and the peak boost pressure goes DOWN, but the car makes MORE power, because there is more airflow into the cylinder, and less restriction in the intake tract.

It's about airflow, not boost. More boost can create more airflow, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a higher number is going to create more power.

Again, boost is merely a measurement of how much restriction there is in your intake tract between the discharge side of the compressor and the intake valve. It does very little to tell you what volume of air is being forced into the engine.

Dirty Water
05-29-2006, 08:20 PM
Not confused. I aware that it's positive manifold pressure. But it's an overrated number.

I've seen cars which make X HP on a dyno. Change something downstream of the supercharger/turbo, and the peak boost pressure goes DOWN, but the car makes MORE power, because there is more airflow into the cylinder, and less restriction in the intake tract.

It's about airflow, not boost. More boost can create more airflow, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a higher number is going to create more power.

Again, boost is merely a measurement of how much restriction there is in your intake tract between the discharge side of the compressor and the intake valve. It does very little to tell you what volume of air is being forced into the engine.

You are correct in your theory but incorrect on your terminology.

Boost (PSI) has nothing to do with engine volumetric efficiency (measured in CFM).

You are right, if you have a engine with a crummy cam and poor intake, 50 PSI of boost is just going to back up waiting to get into the engine because of the poor CFM flow, and create heat.

This is why, in a previous post in this thread, I emphasized the importance to sizing your turbocharger and the amount of boost you run to your engines volumetric efficiency.

However, boost is not a measure of engine restriction, perhaps on a diesel, but definitely not on a gasser (which has a throttle plate and sophisticated blow-off/bypass system to prevent surge, as well as a wastegate to prevent overboosting...).

fiveoboy01
05-29-2006, 08:40 PM
You are correct in your theory but incorrect on your terminology.

I stand by my statement that boost is a measurement of restriction. If there were zero restriction, you'd be left with zero(or atmospheric) boost pressure. Weld over the intake ports, then drill a 1/2" hole in them. Boost pressure will go up, but airflow will go down. Airflow creates power, not boost. Pick up a book written by Richard Holdener, and he will say the exact same thing, word for word.

Boost (PSI) has nothing to do with engine volumetric efficiency (measured in CFM).

I agree to a point... See your next statement, where VE DOES affect boost pressure(note I've flipped the two around here - boost pressure has nothing to do with VE, however, VE will affect boost pressure), or at least the number that you'd see on the gauge.

You are right, if you have a engine with a crummy cam and poor intake, 50 PSI of boost is just going to back up waiting to get into the engine because of the poor CFM flow, and create heat.

Poor VE = restriction = higher boost pressure. The two are related, to a point.


This is why, in a previous post in this thread, I emphasized the importance to sizing your turbocharger and the amount of boost you run to your engines volumetric efficiency.

Couldn't agree with you more here.

However, boost is not a measure of engine restriction, perhaps on a diesel, but definitely not on a gasser (which has a throttle plate and sophisticated blow-off/bypass system to prevent surge, as well as a wastegate to prevent overboosting...).

I see what you're saying, but even on a gasser, with the plate wide open, you'll see more boost/less power with those crummy heads, and less boost/more power with a better-flowing set of heads. I'm not talking a 30psi difference, of course, which would be vented via the bypass or blowoff.

Dirty Water
05-29-2006, 09:08 PM
I think we are argueing the same point 5.0 :)

I was just trying to clarify that you can never measure movement with PSI, you have to use CFM. Therefor, while high boost pressure could be a sign of a engine with poor VE, it is not a measurement for it.

fiveoboy01
05-29-2006, 09:33 PM
Yeah, I think I agree with you there. Same Idea, different words I guess.

:drinkup:

lawnmaniac883
05-29-2006, 10:32 PM
Theoretically you could put a cork in the intake somewhere and see 50psi of boost, but you won't see any horsepower.

But, I'd agree that 10hp/lb seems low on a normal application.


Where are you putting the cork in the intake? Pre or Post turbo?

S3Scooter
05-29-2006, 10:41 PM
I say air flow first. Call up your dealers parts department and ask for a price on an injector, one of the common problums with increasing your fuel without the air flow to match. The cool thing is that most air flow mods are allowd. All stock systems are too restrictive for todays diesel engins. If you do it a little at a time, by the time your warrante is up your trucks airflow is ready for a chip. That is what I am doing, and I am happy with the gain.

S3