Anyone want to discus illegal laborors & the US Government?

[DFW Area Landscaper]

I find it interesting that only in the last few months has the press & congress decided that illegal immigration was worth looking at. It has been an issue in the Lawn Care industry for as long as I can remember.

Personally, I don't think the congress will be able to get a bill on this tough issue. Problems I see:

1.) Our economy is dependent on foreign labor. Not my words. Those are the words of President Bush. Every senator that I've seen interviewed on this issue (Meet the Press) agrees that mass deportation is not the solution. The congress realizes that mass deportation of the illegal work force would cripple our economy.

2.) Whether you want to call keeping the workers here "amnesty" or not, that is what it is. If you allow them to stay, it's amnesty.

3.) Most senators agree that employers of illegal immigrants should be penalized. Some promote "amnesty" for past hirinig violations and agree that existing illegals should be allowed to stay. The whole problem is, how can you be certain, as an employer, that there was no identity theft when the worker obtained the social security card or even a new and improved "tamper proof" version. More importantly, what about "self employed" illegals that compete with these employers? What would be done about that?

4.) Anchor babies, as they are being referred to in the press, and what to do with them. Do you deport the parents of a US citizen who isn't old enough to fend for himself? If you deport the parents and "let them decide what to do with the kids" isn't that really denying citizenship to legitimate citizens? What about the US born citizens who are currently serving in the military? Thanks for risking your life in Iraq, we appreciate your efforts...and Oh, by the way, while you were gone, we deported your parents.

5.) What becomes of any social security paid into the system by a worker who worked under a false identity? Would these new citizens be denied credit for all the taxes they paid into the system?

6.) One senator promoted his idea that illegal workers be allowed to stay and keep their jobs, but newly arriving workers would not be allowed to get jobs. So I am guessing the employer of that worker would have ZERO pressure to ever increase that workers pay or treat them fairly because the worker can't go get another job elsewhere.

7.) Our country is a country of immigrants. My great gand father migrated here from Germany. He didn't speak english but he was welcomed here. One of the senators on Meet the Press mentioned that illegal workers should be allowed to stay temporarily, but that a path to citizenship should not be their reward for coming here illegally. Later in the report, they mentioned that the current wait time to migrate here legally is SIXTEEN years. That is insane. I would be speaking german if my great grand-father had been faced with a 16 year wait to migrate here. Why has the US altered it's immigration laws so drastically since the time that most of our (white european) ancestors migrated here?

Those are some of my politically charged thoughts on the subject. Anyone else care to comment?

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[kc2006]

I recall reading somewhere in an article that it said it's actually costing americans money to keep the illegals here because alot of them aren't pulling their own weight.

The stats of illegals in LA is sick, many are in prison and gangs, thus is why we're having to pay to keep them here and only about 3% are actually working in the jobs that "no one wants".

I don't listen to it all, I don't care about it because there's nothing I can do about it and everyone has their own opinion. But it's just not right to let them keep coming here or let them stay here when others are doing it legally.

[kc2006]

7.) My great gand father migrated here from Germany. He didn't speak english but he was welcomed here.

My great grand parents were from Germany and Italy, they also didn't speak english. BUT the key thing is, they learned it and they respected everyone by speaking english on the streets. Something you don't see today. Back then it was majority rules, now it's minority rules or everyone is a racist!

If people coming here respected the land and the "natives" then I wouldn't care, but they're here illegally, they don't respect people by speaking english, they don't know what freedom means there for they don't care about our flag or anything american. When i saw them all torching flags and being stupid like that, I was 100% against all illegals.

A good little story I saw in a magazine was about a family that lived here illegally for 30 some years, their son joined the army and died FIGHTING FOR THEIR FREEDOM, they didn't understand that and only understood that their son was killed so they hate the government now. But they still live here illegally.....I don't get it :hammerhead:

[Dashunde]

Until they marched, I was ok with them... however, my opinion has changed drastically. (I assume I am not the only one.)

How dare those ILLEGAL F'ers march around OUR country DEMANDING something.
Take your Mexican't a$$ back across the border if you dont like it here.

Gangs
Fraudulent welfare recipients
Fake ID's
Stolen Socials
Jumping the fence right before birth, then having their "anchor" babies at OUR expense.
Never learning English (I'm sick and F'n TIRED of reading Spanish everywhere)
And thats just the beginning of the list.

Truth be told... they are a HUGE DRAIN on our economy, NOT the f'n backbone of it.

Frankly, I think we citizens should be taking turns down on the border with guns pointed south... our government wont do it, maybe we should?

Havent we as American's had enough of this Mexican foolishness?

[Joe65]

Not to mention, the number of illegals whose children(not their fault) are filling our schools, thus raising our taxes........the number of illegals who are filling up all of the apartment/housing rentals thus raising the costs of rentals which are totally out of control and unaffordable for some poor guy just starting out on his own.....the strain on our welfare system, who is paying for all the illegals to have more and more children........ah, we can go on and on......

[PJDiesel]

The "we need them here" mentality that Bush has is a front to protect the huge farms and nurseries that employ tens of thousands of illegals, and the industries that lined his pockets for re-election. If you believe any different, you are simply naive.
The argument that we are all immigrants is lame too, we were not all ILLEGAL immigrants who basically demanded equal rights???

Ticks me off.
They ought to hand out $10,000 fines to employers for each and every illegal they are caught with.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

i am tired of anyone that is here and not working to help the system i dont care what color or race they r
nothing is going to change they r here doing jobs that we "supposedly dont want to do"
why dont we want to do them? low pay? well if we keep letting in the cheep labor the wages will never go up but thats ok for the owners

[Fvstringpicker]

To answer #5 about social security paid on a fraudulent identification, the person paying the tax, though fraudulent, has a right to draw social security.

[fulano]

I like illegals and so does my government.

[Fvstringpicker]

I like illegals and so does my government.


You ain't joking about that. Watch Bush's pandering speech before to US chamber of commerce and you'll see how much.

[Eakern & Dog]

I don't buy that BULL about how illegal workers perform jobs that legal workers "wont' do". The fact that illegals continue to work for employers that fail to pay a decent wage encourages ethical depravity and artificially keeps wages low. The presence of an illegal labor force and our failure to control the border creates an atmosphere where jobs are no longer paid at the naturally occurring market rate. If there are not enough legal workers to perform the work, then the value of that work would typically go up and be in higher demand......... thus higher wages for that work..........maybe then legitimate workers would perform these jobs. I'm irritated that our statesman and local authorities have failed to enforce existing laws. Our governments failure to address this issue is a way for employers to keep wages low and then spoon feed us "cheaper " goods and services. I worry about the hidden cost of this cycle and only hope that a LEGAL free market will move us towards a healthy economic balance.

[jameson]

Aside from all the political rhetoric and posturing, which will amount to nothing, lets look at the issue from a different perspective.

A couple of salient points from Mexico's immigration policy on illegals:

1. Immigrant cannot vote.
2. Immigrant cannot collect Government assistance.
3. Immigrant cannot display the flag of a foreign country.
4. Immigrant cannot protest Government policies or president.
5. Immigrant found by authorites is jailed.

Mexico's southern border is on 'lock down', gaurded, patroled and fortified with troops.

We are Mexico's social security. We are their welfare program. The #2 source of income in Mexico is MONIES FROM THE US.

Ever heard of groups like: La Raza? Mecha? MALDEF? Ever hear the term 'La Reconquista'? You should have, it is happening right now, it is being practiced.

Thomas Jefferson clarifies the issue in stark detail, almost prophetic isn't it?:

"[Is] rapid population [growth] by as great importations of foreigners as possible... founded in good policy?... They will bring with them the principles of the governments they leave, imbibed in their early youth; or, if able to throw them off, it will be in exchange for an unbounded licentiousness, passing, as is usual, from one extreme to another. It would be a miracle were they to stop precisely at the point of temperate liberty. These principles, with their language, they will transmit to their children. In proportion to their number, they will share with us the legislation. They will infuse into it their spirit, warp and bias its direction, and render it a heterogeneous, incoherent, distracted mass... If they come of themselves, they are entitled to all the rights of citizenship: but I doubt the expediency of inviting them by extraordinary encouragements." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.VIII, 1782. ME 2:118

[DFW Area Landscaper]

"My family immigrated to this country a couple hundred years ago, but they did it the right way. Why can't they do it the right way?"

A question for the class: Which of the following groups were prohibited from entering the United States in the 19th century?

A. Prostitutes

B. Convicts

C. Chinese laborers

D. All of the above

Answer: D

The restrictions on legal immigration that exist today did not exist 200 years ago, 100 years ago, even 80 years ago. Unless great-great-grandpa was a disabled polygamist, chances were good he was going to be allowed to enter this country "the right way." Illegal immigration, as we define it today, did not exist.

History tells us that Americans feared immigrants of the past almost as much as they fear immigrants of the present. The first major immigration restriction wasn't imposed until 1882. Prior to that, only the disabled, diseased and convicted were turned away at US ports of entry. Everyone else was welcome to come here legally.

By 1882, the Transcontinental Railroad had been completed. The thousands of Chinese workers who had been recruited to build the tracks had moved into cities across the country, seeking work in the factories, mills and mines. The outcry that followed them went something like this: They're taking our jobs, depressing our wages, robbing our country of its wealth by sending too much gold back to China.

In response, Congress overwhelmingly passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, banning immigration of Chinese laborers and denying citizenship to Chinese people already living here. That law was not repealed until 1940.

Meanwhile, back in Europe, between the crop failures, the population boom and the aftermath of the Industrial Revolution, more eyes were turning west. Not just Anglo-Saxon Protestant eyes, but Jewish and Catholic eyes. Polish and Czech and Greek and Italian eyes.

They came by the millions. Recruited by industry, they were not eagerly embraced by the earlier immigrants. You can ask most grandchildren of Irish or Eastern European immigrants about that. Undisciplined. Immoral. Disease-carrying. Those were some of the stereotypical characterizations of the "lesser classed" Jewish and Catholic immigrants.

So was born the second major restriction on immigration, the 1924 National Origins Act, a law described as "viciously racist." Basically, it set immigration quotas based upon that country's representation in the U.S. in 1890. Before the waves of immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe began.

The "new science" of psychology, IQ testing, offered as evidence in the debate over the 1924 law, proposed a hierarchy: "The Nordics were superior to the Alpines who were superior to Mediterraneans, and all were superior to the Jews and the Asians."

During the Depression and war years, immigration was a trickle. But between 1924 and 1965, 98 percent of immigrants came from Europe and 86 percent of that came from England, Germany and Scandinavia.

Question: How do you know your ancestors came here legally?

Almost all people who came here from the Russian empire may have entered legally, but they left illegally, violating their home country's laws. So did German and Italian men fleeing the draft. Fraud was rampant in the early 20th century.

But illegal immigration as we know it did not begin in earnest until after 1965, with the next major immigration law. That law, passed in the momentum of the civil rights era, sought to correct the discrimination of the past. It still provides the framework for modern immigration policy. The 1965 law brought largely unforeseen changes to this country.

In 1965, the immigration quotas favoring northern and western Europeans were replaced with a system dividing visas equally among countries worldwide and giving preference to families and skilled workers. Instead of bannishing certain races from migrating to the US, the new laws limited the number of immigrants. The limits are so low that the current wait for a Mexican citizen to comer here legally is 16 years.

For all practical purposes, the United States began closing Ellis Island back in 1882 and congress slammed the door in 1965.

Q. Why do they come here illegally?

A. They have no legal option. For those who want the same opportunity our fore-fathers had, illegal immigration is their only choice.

What would your great-great grandfather have done if he were in Mexico today, seeking a better opportunity?

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[Cahsking]

DFW, my hat is off to you. Very good reply...:clapping: It didnt not have the emotional poison that many other post have. It was direct, clear, and stated the facts. For many people who's ancestors came to America there were different stipulations for entrance than there are today. America was founded on free labor, we tend to forget slavery, Chinese workers, industrial child labor...these are dark moments in our history. All jobs that Americans not refused to do, but perfered not to. DFW great post.

[DFW Area Landscaper]

RUSSELLVILLE -- A Ku Klux Klan group led an anti-immigration march in Russellville on Saturday without incident, but not without opposition.
The event began with about a 10-minute march by 50 people, including about a dozen robed Klansmen, to the front of the Franklin County Courthouse. Russellville police estimated that between 300-400 people attended the rally, including onlookers.
The Alabama affiliate of the National Knights of the KKK, based in the western Franklin County town of Red Bay, had a permit for the rally.
No violence or arrests were reported during the 90-minute march and rally as about 30 police and sheriff's deputies watched and stood between the Klan and some people who showed up to opposed the march.
A group of both white and black people started a series of anti-KKK chants during the rally.
Sonja Zelada, of Florence, was in a group holding signs reading Love is the answer and Love thy neighbor.
"I don't think this kind of thing is what America really stands for," Zelada said. "I support people who are working to feed their families."
Marchers protesting proposals to give illegal immigrants amnesty and supporting calls to deport them yelled anti-immigration slogans such as "Send them back!" and "Let's get rid of the Mexicans!"
Ray Larsen, imperial wizard of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan from South Bend, Ind., told the crowd on a megaphone that illegal immigrants are in America to take all the jobs and they want everyone out of America. "And I'm talking about blacks and whites," Larsen said. "They want you out of here because they want this as their land."
Afterward, Klansmen went to a field near Vina in western Franklin County and burned a kerosene-soaked 22-foot-high cross in a field. More than 30 people were in the field, with a few wearing hoods over their faces and others with their faces visible.
Last Monday, many immigrants and others marched in Russellville to support A Day Without Immigrants to show the impact of the Hispanic community.
On Tuesday, about 150 demonstrators marched through the town to protest granting legal status to illegal immigrants.
Russellville is the seat of Franklin County, which has seen a dramatic growth in its Hispanic population. Hispanics now make up more than 7 percent of the county's nearly 31,000 residents, nearly double the percentage of blacks living in the county, according to 2004 census figures.

http://www.accessmontgomery.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060508/NEWS02/605080319/1009

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[firefightergw]

"My family immigrated to this country a couple hundred years ago, but they did it the right way. Why can't they do it the right way?"

A question for the class: Which of the following groups were prohibited from entering the United States in the 19th century?

A. Prostitutes

B. Convicts

C. Chinese laborers

D. All of the above

Answer: D

The restrictions on legal immigration that exist today did not exist 200 years ago, 100 years ago, even 80 years ago. Unless great-great-grandpa was a disabled polygamist, chances were good he was going to be allowed to enter this country "the right way." Illegal immigration, as we define it today, did not exist.

History tells us that Americans feared immigrants of the past almost as much as they fear immigrants of the present. The first major immigration restriction wasn't imposed until 1882. Prior to that, only the disabled, diseased and convicted were turned away at US ports of entry. Everyone else was welcome to come here legally.

By 1882, the Transcontinental Railroad had been completed. The thousands of Chinese workers who had been recruited to build the tracks had moved into cities across the country, seeking work in the factories, mills and mines. The outcry that followed them went something like this: They're taking our jobs, depressing our wages, robbing our country of its wealth by sending too much gold back to China.

In response, Congress overwhelmingly passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, banning immigration of Chinese laborers and denying citizenship to Chinese people already living here. That law was not repealed until 1940.

Meanwhile, back in Europe, between the crop failures, the population boom and the aftermath of the Industrial Revolution, more eyes were turning west. Not just Anglo-Saxon Protestant eyes, but Jewish and Catholic eyes. Polish and Czech and Greek and Italian eyes.

They came by the millions. Recruited by industry, they were not eagerly embraced by the earlier immigrants. You can ask most grandchildren of Irish or Eastern European immigrants about that. Undisciplined. Immoral. Disease-carrying. Those were some of the stereotypical characterizations of the "lesser classed" Jewish and Catholic immigrants.

So was born the second major restriction on immigration, the 1924 National Origins Act, a law described as "viciously racist." Basically, it set immigration quotas based upon that country's representation in the U.S. in 1890. Before the waves of immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe began.

The "new science" of psychology, IQ testing, offered as evidence in the debate over the 1924 law, proposed a hierarchy: "The Nordics were superior to the Alpines who were superior to Mediterraneans, and all were superior to the Jews and the Asians."

During the Depression and war years, immigration was a trickle. But between 1924 and 1965, 98 percent of immigrants came from Europe and 86 percent of that came from England, Germany and Scandinavia.

Question: How do you know your ancestors came here legally?

Almost all people who came here from the Russian empire may have entered legally, but they left illegally, violating their home country's laws. So did German and Italian men fleeing the draft. Fraud was rampant in the early 20th century.

But illegal immigration as we know it did not begin in earnest until after 1965, with the next major immigration law. That law, passed in the momentum of the civil rights era, sought to correct the discrimination of the past. It still provides the framework for modern immigration policy. The 1965 law brought largely unforeseen changes to this country.

In 1965, the immigration quotas favoring northern and western Europeans were replaced with a system dividing visas equally among countries worldwide and giving preference to families and skilled workers. Instead of bannishing certain races from migrating to the US, the new laws limited the number of immigrants. The limits are so low that the current wait for a Mexican citizen to comer here legally is 16 years.

For all practical purposes, the United States began closing Ellis Island back in 1882 and congress slammed the door in 1965.

Q. Why do they come here illegally?

A. They have no legal option. For those who want the same opportunity our fore-fathers had, illegal immigration is their only choice.

What would your great-great grandfather have done if he were in Mexico today, seeking a better opportunity?

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

If there was a perfect post on the subject, this one is it! :clapping:

[Dashunde]

I'd like to point out that during the period where the doors were wide open this country had room to grow... That is no longer the case.
There is room, but not very much. Everything is owned.

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

Comment by Greg Miller posted on the Free New Mexican website

"Cheap Labor"

Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about? Business don't want to
pay a decent wage, consumers don't want expensive produce, Government will tell you
Americans don't want the jobs but the bottom line is cheap labor.

"The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. There is no such
thing as "cheap labor." Take, for example, an illegal Mexican who sneaks in here
with his wife and five children.

He takes a job for five or six dollars an hour, at that wage with six dependents he
pays no income tax.

At the end of the year, if he files income tax, he gets an "earned income credit" of
up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled they qualify for SSI.

Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare.

All of this is at that taxpayers expense.

He doesn't have to worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners
insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He cannot be fired, harassed, or sued.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20 to $30 an hour in benefits.

They may also qualify for CAPI funds (Cash Assistance Program for Immigrants) it is
$20 less a month then SSI (family).


Working Americans are lucky to have $5 or $6 an hour left after paying their
bills and his. Working Americans also pay for increased crime, graffiti, and trash
cleanup. Not to mention the population in jail or prison... It just keeps adding
up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!"

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

I like illegals and so does my government.


That's because you're ......... Aw hell. Never mind.

[DFW Area Landscaper]

yrdandgardenhandyman,

The problems you sight are problems created by a society that has attempted to legislate socialism into a capitalist economy.

The economy has to have working poor. No two ways about it. Only the union leaders think a sandwich artist ought to get $60K/yr plus benefits.

As americans, we want to pay $4.75 for a Subway sandwich, chips and a drink. The only way that is possible is if the guy making our sandwich is getting peanuts for pay. Then we want to complain that the sandwich artist is a mooch on our healthcare & social systems.

Either we pay for the working class via MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher wages so they can afford things like retirement & health insurance which in turn means paying MUCH more for just about everything we consume as americans OR we have to provide them with free health care and give them access to our social programs OR we just let them die when they come into the hospital with a health problem.

The problem is not unique to illegal immigrants. It is a problem unique to any capitalist society.

Unless we completely overhaul our social systems and our entire economy, we need someone to do the dirty work for poverty pay. The immigrants will gladly do these jobs for poverty pay and actually value their employment. We don't want these jobs at just about any level of pay because the work sucks. We certainly don't want our kids aspiring to work in places like meat processing plants or Burger King.

I just don't see why anyone would complain about them being here. I don't get it. For the most part, they are hard working people with outstanding work ethics who just want an opportunity.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[firefightergw]

yrdandgardenhandyman,

The problems you sight are problems created by a society that has attempted to legislate socialism into a capitalist economy.

The economy has to have working poor. No two ways about it. Only the union leaders think a sandwich artist ought to get $60K/yr plus benefits.

As americans, we want to pay $4.75 for a Subway sandwich, chips and a drink. The only way that is possible is if the guy making our sandwich is getting peanuts for pay. Then we want to complain that the sandwich artist is a mooch on our healthcare & social systems.

Either we pay for the working class via MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher wages so they can afford things like retirement & health insurance which in turn means paying MUCH more for just about everything we consume as americans OR we have to provide them with free health care and give them access to our social programs OR we just let them die when they come into the hospital with a health problem.

The problem is not unique to illegal immigrants. It is a problem unique to any capitalist society.

Unless we completely overhaul our social systems and our entire economy, we need someone to do the dirty work for poverty pay. The immigrants will gladly do these jobs for poverty pay and actually value their employment. We don't want these jobs at just about any level of pay because the work sucks. We certainly don't want our kids aspiring to work in places like meat processing plants or Burger King.

I just don't see why anyone would complain about them being here. I don't get it. For the most part, they are hard working people with outstanding work ethics who just want an opportunity.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

Another well thought out and good post. As I have always said, the "illegal immigrant" would be more than happy to pay federal taxes on what they earned if they were able to. They are unable due to fear of being located and deported. If they were issued a Federal Tax ID#, they would pay federal taxes. They already pay state and local taxes on what they earn.

You see, the "illegal immigrants" make money by doing labor. That money is then spent in the economy. Wherever that money is spent, the local and state government collects tax on it and the business that receives money from them has to pay federal taxes too. So indirectly, they do pay taxes and I believe are a vital part of our economy.

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

Another well thought out and good post. As I have always said, the "illegal immigrant" would be more than happy to pay federal taxes on what they earned if they were able to. They are unable due to fear of being located and deported. If they were issued a Federal Tax ID#, they would pay federal taxes. They already pay state and local taxes on what they earn.

You see, the "illegal immigrants" make money by doing labor. That money is then spent in the economy. Wherever that money is spent, the local and state government collects tax on it and the business that receives money from them has to pay federal taxes too. So indirectly, they do pay taxes and I believe are a vital part of our economy.


A big chunk of the money is sent to Mexico. How does that help our economy?

[firefightergw]

A big chunk of the money is sent to Mexico. How does that help our economy?

You really need to do more research. Some of it does go to Mexico but most of it stays right here in the U.S. Almost all of the illegals that I know or have spoken with do not send ANY money to Mexico. The reason is that they are trying to make a life here. Having illegals here is good for the economy. Our country sees a tremendous amount of tax dollars from them and they need to figure out a way that these hard workers can pay federal tax as well. They would be happy to do that, as well, if they would be allowed to.

[Fvstringpicker]

Our country sees a tremendous amount of tax dollars from them and they need to figure out a way that these hard workers can pay federal tax as well.

The tax revenue argument doesn't wash since a "legal" taxpaying citizen would be doing the job at, albeit, a higher wage than the illegal. The real, not politically correct, reason is that illegals are valuable to business because they delivery labor at a much reduced cost. The tax angle is a red herring, pure and simple.

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

You really need to do more research. Some of it does go to Mexico but most of it stays right here in the U.S. Almost all of the illegals that I know or have spoken with do not send ANY money to Mexico. The reason is that they are trying to make a life here. Having illegals here is good for the economy. Our country sees a tremendous amount of tax dollars from them and they need to figure out a way that these hard workers can pay federal tax as well. They would be happy to do that, as well, if they would be allowed to.


I don't know what they do in Texas but up here, on payday the Western Union offices are full of Hispanics sending most of their pay to Mexico. I'm talking $300.00 a pop. They live 8 or 10 to a house, stay a year or so and disappear. The packing plants love it because they don't build up seniority and pensions. You MUST speak Spanish to get a lot of what once were good paying jobs. Don't tell me they add a lot to the economy. The slumlords, bars, packing houses and Western Union offices clean up but I don't see a nickel of that money. These guys don't hire their lawn care out. Hell, most don't even mow their yard. They rack up parking and traffic tickets, drive w/out insurance and never pay.

[Precision]

I don't know what they do in Texas but up here, on payday the Western Union offices are full of Hispanics sending most of their pay to Mexico. I'm talking $300.00 a pop. They live 8 or 10 to a house, stay a year or so and disappear. The packing plants love it because they don't build up seniority and pensions. You MUST speak Spanish to get a lot of what once were good paying jobs. Don't tell me they add a lot to the economy. The slumlords, bars, packing houses and Western Union offices clean up but I don't see a nickel of that money. These guys don't hire their lawn care out. Hell, most don't even mow their yard. They rack up parking and traffic tickets, drive w/out insurance and never pay.


Every group (yes including business owning, tax paying whitey) has its share of idiots and scofflaws.

Now as a general rule the illegal immigrants fall into a few categories

political, social, ideological dissident or outcast:
cuban refugees, Jews from former communist countries, Albanians fleeing persecution, and the list goes on

this group has a very large share of people willing to sacrifice their lives sweating to allow their children to have a better life much like many of our ancestors. Doctors in their county working as dishwashers here so their kids can go to college.

economic refugee:
many mexicans, cubans, dominicans, haitians, FSU and the list goes on

this group has a very large share of people willing to sacrifice their lives sweating to allow their children to have a better life much like many of our ancestors. Doctors in their county working as dishwashers here so their kids can go to college.

Profiteers:
drug runners / king pins, mobsters, former KGB,

this group, I would assume almost no one wants around,

mini profiteers:
see above but on a small scale

this group, I would assume almost no one wants around,

The Lazy:
those from all the above groups who have figured out or have been told how to scam the system (many times at multiple levels and in multiple locations).

this group, I would assume almost no one wants around,

Only problem with the last group is that there are plenty of LEGAL immigrants who fall in this category, not to mention 2nd, 3rd ... 20th generation Americans who fit it as well. Then there are the territories owned by the US that fall into this category (a small island south of Florida that has delusions of being its own county comes to mind).

Like many issues, there are many sides to it and all positions are wrong and right, it is just a proportion thing.

Our immigration laws make little or no sense. Why do whiter countries get priority over darker countries? Why do Cubans become legal once they touch dry land? Why do we cap legal worker visas while doing nothing to cap illegal workers?

As (I believe it was DFW) stated, we pay for the cheap labor, it just depend on if you want it to be invisible and come out of our welfare system, or if you want to pay a living wage to these and other lower echelon employees and thus pay more for products and services.

Personally, I have been through 18 employees in the past year (trying to fill 3 positions). None have lasted 3 months. My most recent quit/firing lasted 4 days. Lazy, white American, 21, wife and a newborn, just moved the entire family back in with mom and dad.

You show me an illegal immigrant who was persecuted in his country and who is working to make his life better here or in his native country and I will show you a guy who shows up on time, works hard and does his best to stay out of trouble and is most likely a model employee.

[ranger351w]

These Mexicans are not immigrants they are criminals!! They broke into my country as sure as if they broke into my home. I am not racist just a law abiding citizen that resents some one who can come to my country illegally and have more rights than I do. Sorry Just an angry working stiff venting.
By the way I mow grass, but our governmet says this is the work we do not want to do!! BULL
A.S.D.S. Mowing

[Precision]

These Mexicans are not immigrants they are criminals!! They broke into my country as sure as if they broke into my home. I am not racist just a law abiding citizen that resents some one who can come to my country illegally and have more rights than I do. Sorry Just an angry working stiff venting.
By the way I mow grass, but our governmet says this is the work we do not want to do!!

you as an owner want to do it. But as an employee you don't and rightfully so. You have made the decision to start a business.
Problem is, the only people we are able to recruit in our bottom echelon jobs (dishwasher, vegetable harvester, lawn employee) are the really young or the really damaged.

Like many other things that are not enforced (or selectively enforced) lets get practical and get a system to work with the reality. The reality is people from other countries want to come here because there is opportunity. The reality is Americans (from where ever) are too lazy to do hard labor and we need the constant renewal of the drive to succeed that many of these immigrants bring.

Sure not a free pass for every derelict in the world, but a realistic approach to at least keep a pulse on who is here, getting some taxes from them and giving them a legal, realistic path to come here. Like it or not they are gonna come.

[VWBOBD]

The "we need them here" mentality that Bush has is a front to protect the huge farms and nurseries that employ tens of thousands of illegals, and the industries that lined his pockets for re-election. If you believe any different, you are simply naive.
The argument that we are all immigrants is lame too, we were not all ILLEGAL immigrants who basically demanded equal rights???

Ticks me off.
They ought to hand out $10,000 fines to employers for each and every illegal they are caught with.

Your democrat is showing. It is just good sense . The big picture is that there are very large industries that would possibly collapse in the event the available workers were no longer available. Common sense tell the rational person that if large industy is knocked off balance , it would effect our economy ten times the ammount that the illegals do. Now, that being said, I hate the fact that our economy has become so dependant on these people. Here in north Georgia, the worlds carpet capital; the absence of immigrants, both legal and illegal, would be devestating . Not only to the carpet manufacturing , but to the trucking industry, the chemical industry , and to the construction industry. Our school budget has gone from 30 million to over 100 million in just 3 years due to the massive influx of the julios.Who do you think picks up the tab for that? This is not an easy issue to try to correct. Remember, it was our wonderful democratic presidents who let them pour into this country for the most part. It is only ignorance that causes every issue to be blamed on Bush. Kinda like everyone blameing him for high fuel prices.....just ridiculous!

[VWBOBD]

"My family immigrated to this country a couple hundred years ago, but they did it the right way. Why can't they do it the right way?"

A question for the class: Which of the following groups were prohibited from entering the United States in the 19th century?

A. Prostitutes

B. Convicts

C. Chinese laborers

D. All of the above

Answer: D

The restrictions on legal immigration that exist today did not exist 200 years ago, 100 years ago, even 80 years ago. Unless great-great-grandpa was a disabled polygamist, chances were good he was going to be allowed to enter this country "the right way." Illegal immigration, as we define it today, did not exist.

History tells us that Americans feared immigrants of the past almost as much as they fear immigrants of the present. The first major immigration restriction wasn't imposed until 1882. Prior to that, only the disabled, diseased and convicted were turned away at US ports of entry. Everyone else was welcome to come here legally.

By 1882, the Transcontinental Railroad had been completed. The thousands of Chinese workers who had been recruited to build the tracks had moved into cities across the country, seeking work in the factories, mills and mines. The outcry that followed them went something like this: They're taking our jobs, depressing our wages, robbing our country of its wealth by sending too much gold back to China.

In response, Congress overwhelmingly passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, banning immigration of Chinese laborers and denying citizenship to Chinese people already living here. That law was not repealed until 1940.

Meanwhile, back in Europe, between the crop failures, the population boom and the aftermath of the Industrial Revolution, more eyes were turning west. Not just Anglo-Saxon Protestant eyes, but Jewish and Catholic eyes. Polish and Czech and Greek and Italian eyes.

They came by the millions. Recruited by industry, they were not eagerly embraced by the earlier immigrants. You can ask most grandchildren of Irish or Eastern European immigrants about that. Undisciplined. Immoral. Disease-carrying. Those were some of the stereotypical characterizations of the "lesser classed" Jewish and Catholic immigrants.

So was born the second major restriction on immigration, the 1924 National Origins Act, a law described as "viciously racist." Basically, it set immigration quotas based upon that country's representation in the U.S. in 1890. Before the waves of immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe began.

The "new science" of psychology, IQ testing, offered as evidence in the debate over the 1924 law, proposed a hierarchy: "The Nordics were superior to the Alpines who were superior to Mediterraneans, and all were superior to the Jews and the Asians."

During the Depression and war years, immigration was a trickle. But between 1924 and 1965, 98 percent of immigrants came from Europe and 86 percent of that came from England, Germany and Scandinavia.

Question: How do you know your ancestors came here legally?

Almost all people who came here from the Russian empire may have entered legally, but they left illegally, violating their home country's laws. So did German and Italian men fleeing the draft. Fraud was rampant in the early 20th century.

But illegal immigration as we know it did not begin in earnest until after 1965, with the next major immigration law. That law, passed in the momentum of the civil rights era, sought to correct the discrimination of the past. It still provides the framework for modern immigration policy. The 1965 law brought largely unforeseen changes to this country.

In 1965, the immigration quotas favoring northern and western Europeans were replaced with a system dividing visas equally among countries worldwide and giving preference to families and skilled workers. Instead of bannishing certain races from migrating to the US, the new laws limited the number of immigrants. The limits are so low that the current wait for a Mexican citizen to comer here legally is 16 years.

For all practical purposes, the United States began closing Ellis Island back in 1882 and congress slammed the door in 1965.

Q. Why do they come here illegally?

A. They have no legal option. For those who want the same opportunity our fore-fathers had, illegal immigration is their only choice.

What would your great-great grandfather have done if he were in Mexico today, seeking a better opportunity?

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

if it is a better life they seek , then they should fix thier own countrys problems and stay there!!

[VWBOBD]

Comment by Greg Miller posted on the Free New Mexican website

"Cheap Labor"

Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about? Business don't want to
pay a decent wage, consumers don't want expensive produce, Government will tell you
Americans don't want the jobs but the bottom line is cheap labor.

"The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. There is no such
thing as "cheap labor." Take, for example, an illegal Mexican who sneaks in here
with his wife and five children.

He takes a job for five or six dollars an hour, at that wage with six dependents he
pays no income tax.

At the end of the year, if he files income tax, he gets an "earned income credit" of
up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled they qualify for SSI.

Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare.

All of this is at that taxpayers expense.

He doesn't have to worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners
insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He cannot be fired, harassed, or sued.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20 to $30 an hour in benefits.

They may also qualify for CAPI funds (Cash Assistance Program for Immigrants) it is
$20 less a month then SSI (family).


Working Americans are lucky to have $5 or $6 an hour left after paying their
bills and his. Working Americans also pay for increased crime, graffiti, and trash
cleanup. Not to mention the population in jail or prison... It just keeps adding
up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!"


Now that was a good post, but nobody wants to hear that, they just want to be like " they are just trying to have a better life...." Well I think that there should be a vote, everyone who wants them here we should force them and them only to foot the funds to pay for every expense that is created by them and thier 8 kids being here

[VWBOBD]

yrdandgardenhandyman,

The problems you sight are problems created by a society that has attempted to legislate socialism into a capitalist economy.

The economy has to have working poor. No two ways about it. Only the union leaders think a sandwich artist ought to get $60K/yr plus benefits.

As americans, we want to pay $4.75 for a Subway sandwich, chips and a drink. The only way that is possible is if the guy making our sandwich is getting peanuts for pay. Then we want to complain that the sandwich artist is a mooch on our healthcare & social systems.

Either we pay for the working class via MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher wages so they can afford things like retirement & health insurance which in turn means paying MUCH more for just about everything we consume as americans OR we have to provide them with free health care and give them access to our social programs OR we just let them die when they come into the hospital with a health problem.

The problem is not unique to illegal immigrants. It is a problem unique to any capitalist society.

Unless we completely overhaul our social systems and our entire economy, we need someone to do the dirty work for poverty pay. The immigrants will gladly do these jobs for poverty pay and actually value their employment. We don't want these jobs at just about any level of pay because the work sucks. We certainly don't want our kids aspiring to work in places like meat processing plants or Burger King.

I just don't see why anyone would complain about them being here. I don't get it. For the most part, they are hard working people with outstanding work ethics who just want an opportunity.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper


Poverty pay? these guys are making like 13 bucks an hour here , and thats just the average starting pay for most mill jobs , which by the way are non union

[VWBOBD]

You really need to do more research. Some of it does go to Mexico but most of it stays right here in the U.S. Almost all of the illegals that I know or have spoken with do not send ANY money to Mexico. The reason is that they are trying to make a life here. Having illegals here is good for the economy. Our country sees a tremendous amount of tax dollars from them and they need to figure out a way that these hard workers can pay federal tax as well. They would be happy to do that, as well, if they would be allowed to.


oh yeah, well come to my town on thursday and friday , go to any western union location and watch. You'll be sickened by the endless lines , all of whom are sending cash to Mexico

[VWBOBD]

I don't know what they do in Texas but up here, on payday the Western Union offices are full of Hispanics sending most of their pay to Mexico. I'm talking $300.00 a pop. They live 8 or 10 to a house, stay a year or so and disappear. The packing plants love it because they don't build up seniority and pensions. You MUST speak Spanish to get a lot of what once were good paying jobs. Don't tell me they add a lot to the economy. The slumlords, bars, packing houses and Western Union offices clean up but I don't see a nickel of that money. These guys don't hire their lawn care out. Hell, most don't even mow their yard. They rack up parking and traffic tickets, drive w/out insurance and never pay.

Dont forget, most of the guys on here are making a fortune off of the too. They should be deported along with them!!

[Precision]

Dont forget, most of the guys on here are making a fortune off of the too. They should be deported along with them!!

Most of the people on here are small time. solo or a few employees. I really doubt that more than 5% of us have over 10 employees.

Who cares if they send money to Mexico. Do you buy Corona? That money goes to Mexico too. The live here, that means they buy gas, buy groceries, pay rent and whatever else, so they are building up the economy with their earned income.

The inscription from the Statue of Liberty:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Although I think this is a bit much, that is the spirit that made this country great. And with each new wave of immigrants, they were hated by the last bunch for driving down wages and being unclean and unsavory in every way.

I say BS.

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

Most of the people on here are small time. solo or a few employees. I really doubt that more than 5% of us have over 10 employees.

Who cares if they send money to Mexico. Do you buy Corona? That money goes to Mexico too. The live here, that means they buy gas, buy groceries, pay rent and whatever else, so they are building up the economy with their earned income.

The inscription from the Statue of Liberty:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Although I think this is a bit much, that is the spirit that made this country great. And with each new wave of immigrants, they were hated by the last bunch for driving down wages and being unclean and unsavory in every way.

I say BS.


But it doesn't say to come illegally. AND, the USA and the world have changed since those words were inscribed.
Once again, why is it so hard for people to understand that these people are here ILLEGALLY? You can try to justify it all you want but they are illegal!
From Merriam-Webster: : not according to or authorized by law : UNLAWFUL, ILLICIT; also : not sanctioned by official rules

[Precision]

But it doesn't say to come illegally. AND, the USA and the world have changed since those words were inscribed.
Once again, why is it so hard for people to understand that these people are here ILLEGALLY? You can try to justify it all you want but they are illegal!
From Merriam-Webster: : not according to or authorized by law : UNLAWFUL, ILLICIT; also : not sanctioned by official rules


And I say laziness, jingoism and racism have no place in immigration policy. Why are they illegal?

because we have made it impossible for most people to enter our country without threading a byzantine maze that changes in mid stride.

The simple fact is the poor and oppressed will always flee to a better place. We are that better place for tons of people. Ignoring that just means we have to spend tons of money on putting our finger in the leaking levy.

If we would make getting here simpler, then we could keep better tabs on the people and make them pay their way. It is simple math. having records on 12 million people and having 12 million extra tax payers and 1 million illegals is way better than the 13 million illegal and non-taxpaying people we have now.

We also need to tighten our access to medicare, ssi, food stamps and the like. My suggestion is that once we get a realistic policy in place that addresses the system, then if you aren't a system participant, then no help outside of emergency, then after the emergency, deported.

I am no bleeding heart, just a realist.

[VWBOBD]

The inscription from the Statue of Liberty:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."



Hey, dont forget that ugly statue was a gift from the French, a foreign country!

[Precision]

Hey, dont forget that ugly statue was a gift from the French, a foreign country!
And don't forget that gift was a tribute to the US for helping them see the path to Democratic reform and was given as a thank you from the French people and people all over the world for the US taking the lead in the greatest social and political experiment the world had ever seen and being successful at it.

Remember that our country is based on diversity, collaberation, invigoration by the new and the foriegn. The only natives here are the Indians and they can thank us all for stealing what was theirs.

Part of my family came here fleeing the Irish potato famine. They were not exactly rich and sought opportunity.

Another part of my family came over as an escape from being blackballed from a rich British family for marrying a girl who was the wrong religion. He left his family fortune and came her for opportunity.

Another part of my family left Germany to seek more fertile farmland in the midwest. They found it and the opportunity they craved.


I do not doubt that each group of my family faced hostility and prejudice from the established groups, but they like the groups before them assimilated and became Americans. There were groups then who made their money and returned to their homeland or sent money back. there always has been and quite frankly we should rue the day when it quits. That will mean we are dramatically declining as a nation and no longer the land of opportunity. That is what we should fear.

[DFW Area Landscaper]

VWBOBD,

You have elected to side with the KKK on an issue that they feel strongly enough to hold rallies over. For the first time in Klan history, they had more support than protest at one of their rallies...an anti-immigration rally held in Russellville, Alabama about two weeks ago.

100% of our resistance, as a nation, throughout history, towards immigration has been racially motived. First it was the Chinese. Then all of Asia. Next, it was the Jews and Catholics. Today it's the Mexicans.

If your position on this issue is anti-immigration, you will have a very hard time convincing me that your position is not racially motivated.

The reasons being punted about by the anti-immigration folks are the same reasons the anti-immigration folks sited a hundred years ago: They're taking our jobs...they're driving down wages...they're bringing disease...they're a drain on our social systems...they don't speak our language.

Why is it that the people who claim they should be denied citizenship on the basis that they are law breakers never campaign for a legal way for them to come here? Instead, these anti-immigration folks campaign for a wall. Didn't we chear, as a nation, when President Reagan said "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that wall"? Now we want to build one of our own.

The double standards are amazing.

Later,
Books Worst Enemy

[jazak]

1- We open the close the borders.
2- To come to our country you must join our military for 5 years.
3- We send them to Iraq with newer and better equipment then, overrun ALL of Iraq.
4- Have THEM build a wall around Iraq and the US/ Mexican border.
5- We now run Iraq and get gas at 1/2 off.
6- Make Iraq our 51st state
7- Send the mexicans back to US
8- Now we invade Mexico
9- We cleanup Mexico
10- We now run Mexico
11- We put up a wall dividing mexico for South America
12- Now we have good labor, cheap gas, 52 states, and no more problems with gas prices and imagration.
13- Tell the liberals- far left- if they have a problem the can go move to afghanistan and help them run that country. :laugh: :clapping:

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

VWBOBD,

You have elected to side with the KKK on an issue that they feel strongly enough to hold rallies over. For the first time in Klan history, they had more support than protest at one of their rallies...an anti-immigration rally held in Russellville, Alabama about two weeks ago.

100% of our resistance, as a nation, throughout history, towards immigration has been racially motived. First it was the Chinese. Then all of Asia. Next, it was the Jews and Catholics. Today it's the Mexicans.

If your position on this issue is anti-immigration, you will have a very hard time convincing me that your position is not racially motivated.

The reasons being punted about by the anti-immigration folks are the same reasons the anti-immigration folks sited a hundred years ago: They're taking our jobs...they're driving down wages...they're bringing disease...they're a drain on our social systems...they don't speak our language.

Why is it that the people who claim they should be denied citizenship on the basis that they are law breakers never campaign for a legal way for them to come here? Instead, these anti-immigration folks campaign for a wall. Didn't we chear, as a nation, when President Reagan said "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that wall"? Now we want to build one of our own.

The double standards are amazing.

Later,
Books Worst Enemy


Bone head. It's ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!!!!!
And the Berlin wall was to keep the people in, not out.

[jazak]

yrdandgardenhandyman is right!!! :clapping: :clapping:
DFW Area Landscaper :hammerhead:

[Precision]

Bone head. It's ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!!!!!
And the Berlin wall was to keep the people in, not out.

illegal immigration is illegal because people have gotten their racially motivated ideals sugar coated enough to rally support and get laws passed.

if you don't believe that, see what the annual quota of immigration from Scandanavian countries vs African countries.

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

illegal immigration is illegal because people have gotten their racially motivated ideals sugar coated enough to rally support and get laws passed.

if you don't believe that, see what the annual quota of immigration from Scandanavian countries vs African countries.



Look. I want to be fair about this. Can you give me a source for this information?
Personally, I couldn't care less where they are from or what their race is. If they enter illegally, I want them out.
I am 1/4 Irish, 1/4 German and 1/2 Cherokee. I'm not worried about America then. I'm concerned about America now. My Great Granparents on my Mother's side were not considered citizens either. It wasn't till the early 20th century that Congress granted citizenship to the American Indian. They weren't even allowed to vote till 1948. So don't speak to me of racism.

[Precision]

Look. I want to be fair about this. Can you give me a source for this information?
Personally, I couldn't care less where they are from or what their race is. If they enter illegally, I want them out.
I am 1/4 Irish, 1/4 German and 1/2 Cherokee. I'm not worried about America then. I'm concerned about America now. My Great Granparents on my Mother's side were not considered citizens either. It wasn't till the early 20th century that Congress granted citizenship to the American Indian. They weren't even allowed to vote till 1948. So don't speak to me of racism.

I haven't seen it in a while, but I would guess INS site would have it. They do quota's by countries and the tendency is that the lighter the population the more are allowed. I realize that some of that has to do with relative wealth of the people and other issues, but.

I don't like illegals either. But the problem is not with the illegals, it is with attitudes and the law. I view it much like prohibition. The only thing that making alcohol illegal does, is turn a large percentage of the population into criminals and make bootlegging and rum running very profitable. Al Capone.

Immigration is no different. The illegals get screwed and dead, and those who transport them get rich and the government has no control and no taxes.

I say liberalize immigration and get a head count and have reasonable methods for coming here to make money and / or become a citizen then focus on the real dirtbags who are trying to come for terrorism or other dastardly deeds.

[VWBOBD]

VWBOBD,

You have elected to side with the KKK on an issue that they feel strongly enough to hold rallies over. For the first time in Klan history, they had more support than protest at one of their rallies...an anti-immigration rally held in Russellville, Alabama about two weeks ago.

100% of our resistance, as a nation, throughout history, towards immigration has been racially motived. First it was the Chinese. Then all of Asia. Next, it was the Jews and Catholics. Today it's the Mexicans.

If your position on this issue is anti-immigration, you will have a very hard time convincing me that your position is not racially motivated.

The reasons being punted about by the anti-immigration folks are the same reasons the anti-immigration folks sited a hundred years ago: They're taking our jobs...they're driving down wages...they're bringing disease...they're a drain on our social systems...they don't speak our language.

Why is it that the people who claim they should be denied citizenship on the basis that they are law breakers never campaign for a legal way for them to come here? Instead, these anti-immigration folks campaign for a wall. Didn't we chear, as a nation, when President Reagan said "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that wall"? Now we want to build one of our own.

The double standards are amazing.

Later,
Books Worst Enemy

So we should just let everybody pour into this country, including the people who want to do harm to us. How long do you think it will take before the same groups we are fighting with overseas find the huge hole that we call the us/mexican border. Racial, no. Concerned, yes.
It is pathetic that people who are not legal citizens can come here and utilize the systems that even us citizens cannot, drive our school systems expenses off the charts, strech our social services thinner than ever, and then protest that they are treated unfairly by our government. Well I say a stand has to be made. Some of us dont care if we are on the unpopular side, at least it is the right side of this issue.

[VWBOBD]

By the way, my grandfather was full blooded Cherokee, one of the only true citizens of this land.

[jlohouston]

so none of you would hire a Mexican for $5 an hour? If you are paying a white guy $10 you could get the 2 for 1 deal....???

Think about all of this.... Government is supported by large companies that make LARGE amounts of money.... Example... IBM, Microsoft, Sears, HP, etc.... my point on this is who and where and how much...

WHO = cheap labor
WHERE = We stay (large company) in the US if we get free TAXES... (large companies will do this to a small city to build there) then will hire cheap labor...
HOW MUCH = Money that the company will give to GOVERNMENT to over look the cheap labor...

I am in Houston... the only companies that are getting fined for hiring mexicans are small companies...

[yrdandgardenhandyman]

so none of you would hire a Mexican for $5 an hour? If you are paying a white guy $10 you could get the 2 for 1 deal....???

Think about all of this.... Government is supported by large companies that make LARGE amounts of money.... Example... IBM, Microsoft, Sears, HP, etc.... my point on this is who and where and how much...

WHO = cheap labor
WHERE = We stay (large company) in the US if we get free TAXES... (large companies will do this to a small city to build there) then will hire cheap labor...
HOW MUCH = Money that the company will give to GOVERNMENT to over look the cheap labor...

I am in Houston... the only companies that are getting fined for hiring mexicans are small companies...


I would if they were LEGAL and would work for that amount. I suspect that if they were willing to work for that low of a wage that I would be taking a huge risk of violating the law.

[horizonmowing]

I say we pick sides. If you like ILLEGAL immigrants then we raise your taxes to pay for the countless hand outs our gov’t gives them. If you don’t like them here, just sit back, relax, and enjoy your tax return. Can you guess what side I’m on? :)

Ps. If you ever get a chance to look at Mexico’s immigration laws, you will laugh. And Mexico suing the U.S in our courts if we detain illegal Mexicans. BRING IT ON!!

[Eakern & Dog]

Ps. If you ever get a chance to look at Mexico’s immigration laws, you will laugh. And Mexico suing the U.S in our courts if we detain illegal Mexicans.

AMEN ! When my grandmother retired and moved to Mexico for two years, her "tourist Visa" required that she leave every 6 months and then come right back and they charged her for this as well. I hate to imagine what would have have happened to her if she had decided to disregard the Mexican immigration laws in the similar way Mexicans disregard our immigration laws:nono:

[GreenN'Clean]

I HATE OUR GOVERNMENT ever since bush stepped foot in office EVERYTHING has went wrong!!! Hes not for the american working man or woman hes for helping other people in other countries, he doesnt care about americans and it shows. And this so called 700 miles of fence is to try to shut people up and calm peoples nerves but whats a 700 mile fence going to do when theres a 2200 mile border? Theres still 1500 miles of open space!!!! Plus no matter how long a fence or how tall it wont stop them from crossing... You build a 50 foot fence they will build a 51 foot ladder or dig a hole and crawl under. Bush is a discrace to America that cant protect our land are children or finances. Every car maker will eventually merge with an overseas dealer and its already starting, our jobs are being given away to over seas people, They give programs for foreigner to come to america and start businesses tax free but i be damned if they will do that for an american citizen!!! I wonder how many amercians could break the same laws that illegals do and get away with it??? We as Amercians will have to stand up and fight the government over these issues because they arent doing anything about it. I find it odd that congress wont raise the minimum wage but they always seems to find a way to give themselves a raise!!!!! Governement allows illegals here cause they say cheap labor and helps our economy? Well i would like to know how its helping when the tax free money illegals make is sent back home to mexico where there money triples? They sent back 20 billion dollars to mexico from working in our country illeagally and were the ones suffering from it. We as amercians have to pay taxes,insurance,and pay to be legal when illegals come here work tax free get free health care and send there money back home and WE AS AMERICANS PAY FOR IT!!!!! I say forget the fence and go after the people who hire illegals and stop the only reason they come here, the JOBS, take that away and they will go away and our pay scales will increase and our economy will increase cause we wont be footing the bill to there 100 billion dollar free health care and the 20 billion they make illegal wont be sent back to mexico. Pay an american more money and they will do a better job, 10 bucks an hour and you cant survive, cause taxes,insurance etc they bring home 7 bucks an hr if there lucky. Vote to get BUSHS people out of office and take back our country

[mojob]

GreenNClean I'm with you 100%. We have to ask ourselves, what did we do forty years ago. We didn't need migrant labor then to have a strong economy. Everybody that was willing to work did well. A carpenter that made his living framing houses made enough to support his family. That same guy now has to do something else to make a living because the developer has hired migrant workers at rock bottom wages to frame houses. We're all so bent on getting rich quick we've lost sight at what it's doing to our country. It's happening to this industry as well. We're the same guys that drove beatup pickups and used rundown equipment forty years ago. Now, the same job, we're driving $30K trucks and trading in our equipment every year. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but how'd we get to this point. I think cheap labor had a lot to do with it. We're losing our middle class of people. In the future there will be the really rich and the really poor. That's the way it is in any third world country. Who pays the lion's share of taxes that supports this country...the middle class. Do you see the problem here. Our way of life is slowly fading away. The things we used to do ourselves, we now have done for us by cheap labor. We've become fat and lazy and if we don't change our ways we'll suffer for it.

[huh]

cleanandgreen get a clue

if you think illegal immigration has just started or picked up under Bush you are a moron

and mojob we had illegals 40 years ago.....just one difference they were LEGAL under the braceros program

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html

lastly if it is really "Bushes fault" and all of your other American worker BS then how come union bastards that ONLY back democrats are recruiting illegals into unions

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/16/news/economy/unions_daylabor/

no Bush has not done what I would want with illegals, but if morons like the one above don't pull their heads from their asses and see the real picture we will only get it worse......democrats are no friend of the working man and pander to illegals more that ANYONE EVER has.....end of story

[mojob]

cleanandgreen get a clue

if you think illegal immigration has just started or picked up under Bush you are a moron

and mojob we had illegals 40 years ago.....just one difference they were LEGAL under the braceros program

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html

lastly if it is really "Bushes fault" and all of your other American worker BS then how come union bastards that ONLY back democrats are recruiting illegals into unions

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/16/news/economy/unions_daylabor/

no Bush has not done what I would want with illegals, but if morons like the one above don't pull their heads from their asses and see the real picture we will only get it worse......democrats are no friend of the working man and pander to illegals more that ANYONE EVER has.....end of story
This is not a democrats vs republican issue you George W. luvin idiot. There might have been illegals in Texas forty years ago, but not the rest of the country. At least not the extent it is today. You might need to get a clue and pull your head out of your rectum.

[huh]

if it is not a George W. issue then what is up with the dolt that posted above your first post

and as far as the braceros program it shot your arguement that "Americans did all of the work in the past" straight to hell

I clearly stated that Bush has not done what I wished, but I am not stupid enough like some to believe that a group of people that do nothing but PANDER to the lazy, the criminal, the illegal, and the "minority" (ie democrats) will do anything more to solve the issue

just like I do not like the current government spending, but that does not mean I will vote for those that say "we don't pay enough in taxes" and "we don't pay enough for gas" and "poor people need more handouts" (ie democrats)

it is the clueless like you and greenclean that allow thses types of issues to be "party issues" because you are so blinded with stupidity and lack of understanding you will vote AGAINST anything no matter what those you vote in are FOR

lastly illegals have been in the USA since the USA was formed.....one group courts them as voters and one group wants to get a grip on the issue....to bad you can't figure that out because you don't have a clue about anything that has happened since you fell off of the turnip truck last year

[Evan528]

This whole "cheap Labor" side of the debate just isnt even true. At least not in my area. These mexican guys are not dumb..and there is ample oppertunity for them here. They know landscape owners can either hire "lazy white americans" who will not come to work....show up drunk and have a bad attitude or they can hire them (mexicans). The mexicans are very grateful for there job....always early to work...bust there ass and actually care about the quality of work there doing. Because they know they are in such demand for landscape companys they do not work for 5 or 6 dollars an hour. Most mexicans here start abd 10 or 11 with know experience and many make as much as 15 within a year or 2. If one company dosnt pay them well they know they can easily find a new job making what they think they are worth. Kick all of the mexicans out of the country and America is going to turn into one ugly place!!! Lawns wont get cut.....landscapes wont be maintained and alot of companys are going to go out of business do to lack of employees!

[PROCUT1]

This whole "cheap Labor" side of the debate just isnt even true. At least not in my area. These mexican guys are not dumb..and there is ample oppertunity for them here. They know landscape owners can either hire "lazy white americans" who will not come to work....show up drunk and have a bad attitude or they can hire them (mexicans). The mexicans are very grateful for there job....always early to work...bust there ass and actually care about the quality of work there doing. Because they know they are in such demand for landscape companys they do not work for 5 or 6 dollars an hour. Most mexicans here start abd 10 or 11 with know experience and many make as much as 15 within a year or 2. If one company dosnt pay them well they know they can easily find a new job making what they think they are worth. Kick all of the mexicans out of the country and America is going to turn into one ugly place!!! Lawns wont get cut.....landscapes wont be maintained and alot of companys are going to go out of business do to lack of employees!



That is the most intelligent response ive seen here. I have a lot of experience dealing with Mexicans and Americans and I could not have said this any better.

[Precision]

That is the most intelligent response ive seen here. I have a lot of experience dealing with Mexicans and Americans and I could not have said this any better.


You are right.

Ok, so to the previous idiot who wants us to only hire Americans. I should hire TWO americans and pay them $9-12 per hour and get half the attendance, half the work ethic and half the quality of one mexican at $9-12 per hour.

but on the up side, I do get twice the attitude for my money per american.

Lets face it, anyone with any brains and an education, who doesn't have a drug, alcohol, criminal or other debilitating problem will not work as a laborer making $9-12. Think about it. $12 per hour is $24,000 per year PRETAX.

Now for someone whos is willing to bust hump for 4-5 years and move back to his country where $24,000 is 4 or 5 years worth of salary that is a good trade off. Work in the US for 5 years, save $50K and retire in mexico with Property and be "The Man".

[mojob]

You guys are so short-sighted it's not funny. Do you think these people that migrate to the US will always be content with working for you. There's going to come a day when these people get their act together enough to put together their own companies and hire their own and where will you be? You'll have to compete with your current competition and them. The only difference is these people don't require the finer things in life which we have become accustom to. They'll share a house with two other families, share one car, use beatup equipment all to save money. In turn, they don't have to charge nearly as much as we do to clear the same profit. You can't see a potential problem with this? If not, try looking farther down the road. BTW, I apologize for any previous name calling. This topic hits a nerve with me.

[huh]

Dude if you knew Mexicans you would know that they have nothing more than the HUGE desire to go back to Mexico and live.....the sad fact is they know Mexico is a corrupt dump that will offer many of them NOTHING in their lifetime

the USA is WAY too fast paced and structured for them.....all of the arguements on this forum daily about insurance, taxes, licenses, and on and on are they types of things Mexicans want nothing to do with....and have little understanding of

yes they will live MANY in a 2-3 bedroom 1 bath house and on and on.....the fact is the VAST majority will NOT be able to....or take the time to.....learn the most important economic and lifestyle advancement tool on earth....English....this will forever limit what 99% of them can have in the USA

also the FACT is that in Mexico free education is only up to 5th grade.....after that it is ~$7 per day per child....in a country where the average DAILY wage is ~$5-6 gringo dollars per DIA....so most of the population does not go to school beyong 5th grade.....this is a HUGE limit to what they can achive in an advanced country like the USA......many of the Mexicans I have worked with were VERY VERY smart....and more than that they had something that is very hard for this gringo.....patients....this is a GREAT help in doing demanding labor intensive task....they also have the ability to just...."do the work" with little thought of how mind numbing it is....they just put on the Spanish channel and dream of days past in ol' Mexico......BUT.....it takes a LONG time to convince them to do somthing that does not seam "logical" to them.......an example when I was a greenhouse grower in Austin I started out pretty raw, but one thing I was taught from DAY one when getting my hort degree was WATER DEEP......get the WHOLE POT WATERED FROM TOP TO BOTTOM....in a 30X100 greenhouse with a low flowing hose this can take 45 minutes PER house....my crew forever thought it was best to spend 15 minutes slinging water really quick 2 times a day, but could never figure out why there were fungus problems (from watering too late in the day) or why the plants AWLAYS looked a bit stressed.....to them 2 X 15 = 30 = faster = better job done

they would NEVER catch on to chemical rotations....use one fungicide at a poor rate then if it does not work just go right in with something else.....same with pesticides.......just go in with some WAY too high rate one time then do it again with something else if that does not work.....ZERO knowledge of resistance or how fast the "animalitas" life span is....sometimes the life span of a bug is weeks.....you can build resistance FAST if you are not careful.....and Sandoz or who EVER is not going to make some new chemistry of pesticide for some fool that can't read directions

Bottom line if ANYONE on this forum can not compete with someone that has a 5th grade education, does not speak the language, and does not understand the culture then they have a WAY BIGGER PROMLEM in their life than illegals.....PERIOD!

sorry for the name calling as well, but lets be honest the "George Bush is ruining the world" crowd is the biggest bunch of sad sack chit heads that have ever lived in the USA......they have offered NOTHING TO SOLVE ANYTHING (unless you believe "do it different" or "do it better" is a SOLUTION).....and really they ARE the BIGGEST problem.....to give them ANY credibility is to just exarcerbate the problem and prolong it

[mojob]

Huh, you give too much credit to a formal education in making it in this business. Judging by some of the spelling, grammar, and sentence structure I've seen on this site, I'd say a few of the regular posters had less than a 5th grade education. And I wouldn't be surprised if they made a really good living. It doesn't take a degree in horticulture to do well in this business. As far as making this their permanent home, it doesn't matter, they're here long enough to cost tax payers money. Who pays the hospital bill when they can't or won't and who foots the bill when they break the law and go to jail. Have you been to Florida or California lately? English is the second language. You're right, they don't like our structured way of life, but who says they have to play by our rules. They often don't. They get insurance on their cars just long enough to get tags for it and then ride around the rest of the time without insurance. And huh, I do know Mexico and mexicans. I was born in Mexico City, 47 years ago. My parents(who are americans) lived in Mexico for several years while they helped my aunt(who moved to mexico in the forties and married a mexican). I now have about three generations of mexicans in my family. They've worked hard and have made a great living IN mexico. I lived in south Florida for 40 years and the immigration situation as we know it only started about twenty years ago if you don't count Cuba. What did everyone in the service industries do before then? I decided to move to Colorado because my son was one of a few kids that spoke english in his second grade class. Seems like a pretty permanent living situation if their kids are here going to school. There's so many of them that the schools have become overcrowed. Are these immigrants paying enough taxes to pay for more schools? Hell no! We are. The way I see it, this issue will be driven by the haves and have nots. The people that HAVE immigrants working for them(making them rich) and the have NOTS that employ americans the old fashion way. The Haves benefit enough to offset the tax increases needed to cover the increased burden, while the have nots just foot the rest of the bill with no benefits to them at all. When it's all said and done, we'll just have more rats in the rat race with a smaller chunk of cheese to go around at the end of the race.

[huh]

Huh, you give too much credit to a formal education in making it in this business. Judging by some of the spelling, grammar, and sentence structure I've seen on this site, I'd say a few of the regular posters had less than a 5th grade education. And I wouldn't be surprised if they made a really good living. It doesn't take a degree in horticulture to do well in this business. As far as making this their permanent home, it doesn't matter, they're here long enough to cost tax payers money. Who pays the hospital bill when they can't or won't and who foots the bill when they break the law and go to jail. Have you been to Florida or California lately? English is the second language. You're right, they don't like our structured way of life, but who says they have to play by our rules. They often don't. They get insurance on their cars just long enough to get tags for it and then ride around the rest of the time without insurance. And huh, I do know Mexico and mexicans. I was born in Mexico City, 47 years ago. My parents(who are americans) lived in Mexico for several years while they helped my aunt(who moved to mexico in the forties and married a mexican). I now have about three generations of mexicans in my family. They've worked hard and have made a great living IN mexico. I lived in south Florida for 40 years and the immigration situation as we know it only started about twenty years ago if you don't count Cuba. What did everyone in the service industries do before then? I decided to move to Colorado because my son was one of a few kids that spoke english in his second grade class. Seems like a pretty permanent living situation if their kids are here going to school. There's so many of them that the schools have become overcrowed. Are these immigrants paying enough taxes to pay for more schools? Hell no! We are. The way I see it, this issue will be driven by the haves and have nots. The people that HAVE immigrants working for them(making them rich) and the have NOTS that employ americans the old fashion way. The Haves benefit enough to offset the tax increases needed to cover the increased burden, while the have nots just foot the rest of the bill with no benefits to them at all. When it's all said and done, we'll just have more rats in the rat race with a smaller chunk of cheese to go around at the end of the race.

all good points...I do not like the situation as it is now and I did not like it in the past....the real problem I see is that all of the good Mexicans got here about 10-12 years ago and now the crap has caught on and is coming here as well bringing all of Mexicos problems with them

I would dump the anchor baby situation TOMORROW if I was in charge....and I would do like REAL MEXICANS (not guilt filled 3rd gen chicanos) want and MAKE ENGLISH FIRST AND ENGLISH ONLY...FOR ALL STUDENTS

as for education a ****** can be the "lawn boy" but most people in this forum say they are above that.....yet they worry about someone with a 5th grade education FROM MEXICO beating them out

you are 100% correct the issue is not them taking yardboy jobs it is all of the other B.S. they bring with them....it is only the lazy and the worthless that use up the emergency room....unfortunately that is all that is left in Mexico to come here now....also they did not start moving their families here until it became too hard to cross back and forth every year at Thanksgiving and then back again in Feb or March

the whole reason I posted in this thread origionally was to let greenNdumb know that illegals were here LONG before GWB "ruined the earth" and it is people like him and those that fail to tell him he is a moron that are the real problem

people may not like GWBs solution to illegals, but if they think some turd sucking democrat will do anything but pander to them they need their head checked to see if it even contains a brain :dizzy:

[Toy2]

You all need to wake up an figure out that they will rule this country some day...I work with this beaners all day...all illegal...yes they work for companies that have government contracts?????...my biggest deals are dealing with the safety of the traveling public on my highways while this guys work...they have no rules, I do police them in some way, I also carry two knifes in the event I get one of them pissed off..I will die fighting....until the government stops the overflow, you all are screwed...your job means nothing to the basic homeowner...you need to get educated and they can't touch you, until them just sit back and wait for them to take that spoon out of your mouth and replace it with their foot.

[Yard Dog]

"The economy has to have working poor. No two ways about it. Only the union leaders think a sandwich artist ought to get $60K/yr plus benefits."

DFW, I'm sure you employ illegals at slave wages, but that does not make it right. Anyway, I know we will always have the poor. We had them before big-time illegal immigration issues. But, what we have seen is the shrinking of the middle class. A CEO 25 years ago used to make 4 X's more than the highest paid hourly employee, now they make 20 - 25 X's more. Oh, BTW, I know that there are corrupt union leaders, but would you rather go back to the days of 0 labor laws and slave wages. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare immigration of hundreds of years ago with what is going on today and you know it. I don't know what my grandfather would do today if he was in Mexico, but I know what I hope he would do; I would hope that he would fight to change things in his own country. Just one more thing, I wish that everyone on this planet had it great, but I care more about the quality of life for United States citizens than the rest of the world combined and if you don't...well, the way I see it, that would be about as unpatriotic as anyone could be.

[Yard Dog]

I see you are not the one I was responding to. It was someone else's post.

[prizeprop]

Look what illegal immigration did to the American Indian.Although that was different, that was Manifest Destiny.:usflag:

[Kate Butler]

Look what illegal immigration did to the American Indian.Although that was different, that was Manifest Destiny.:usflag:

The most succinct post yet!!!

[Eakern & Dog]

Look what illegal immigration did to the American Indian.Although that was different, that was Manifest Destiny

Very true! Yet, Manifest Destiney,a term coined by the "white man",could be applied to describe the expansionist ideology among the indians of the Americas as well. The concept is similar. Meaning,how could one best describe the expansionist wars waged by the Iroquois on to their neighboring "lessor" tribes ? The Five Nations of the Iroquois didn't become the largest conglomerate on peaceful diplomacy alone.

[ProLandscapes]

This coming from a "whiteboy" who grew up in Los Angeles. This country is a speeding frieght train without brakes headed off a cliff, hold on for the ride! Hispanics could care less about our country. They are some of the most racist people and are a huge drain on society. We either deport them now or watch this country turn into craphole Mexico! If your having problems in your country then fix your own country and make it a better place to live.

I have lived around these people for most of my life. They are preparing to have an all out civil war with us and very well may fight aside Islamists. I see this happening within the next ten to fifteen years and it won't be pretty! The thing they don't realize is if they start a fight with middle class America then they are done for. There are just to many crazy Americans who haven't even been pushed far enough yet.

[WildWest]

VWBOBD,

Didn't we chear, as a nation, when President Reagan said "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that wall"? Now we want to build one of our own.

The double standards are amazing.

Later,
Books Worst Enemy

Hang on a minute brother... we want a wall to keep people who don't have a right to be here (yet), OUT.....not keep people IN! HUGE difference!!!
Just because Ellis Island closed does NOT mean that we stopped immigration in this country! We allow TENS if not HUNDREDS of thousands here LEGALLY each year. KEY WORD...LEGAL!

One last thing...does ANYONE really think that if all these "ILLEGAL ALIENS" are granted "amnesty" and overnight become "paper Americans" do you NOT think that the FIRST THING they are going to do is register for every benefit available? Second, not that they are LEGAL Americans...do you realy think that they aren't going to rally for higher pay, unionize, and call their employer racist if he doesnt comply? If you don't you're NUTS! The ACLU, REV. Jessie and AL will be there in NO TIME to to arange the "Great American Buyout"!

ENFORCE THE LAWS and BUILD THE FENCE! :usflag:

[WildWest]

Another thing....our crappy congress said that they would stop illegal immigration 20 years ago at the LAST AMNESTY so they would never have to deal with this problem again....did it happen? NO! Just like every other promise that the make to the AMERICAN people! Grant this AMNESTY and in another 20 years we'll have 40 million here!

B.S! Sorry, i'll pay five bucks for a head of lettuce if THAT WHAT IT TAKES!!