PDA

View Full Version : irregular flag help


Green-Pro
06-10-2006, 10:34 AM
Hey folks, need a bit of help if you don't mind. I have installed paver patios, walls, etc.
One project I have not yet undertaken is laying an irregular flagstone patio. I have not been asked to estimate or install one yet but believe it will only be a matter of time before this comes up.
I want to practice by installing a few smaller irregular flag patios (one here at our home, one for the out er,, in-laws). I would suspect there are some process's that are much the same as paver patios and some very differed. I'm looking for any help at all on installation procedures. Point me to a website, offer a brief synopsis, whatever. Any and all help would be much appreciated.
Again this is not going to be installed for a customer as a professional job, this is a project I wish to undertake as a install for my self and maybe some relatives and or friends in order to gain some experience working with a different material.

Thanks again

tthomass
06-10-2006, 11:56 AM
short and sweet:

2-4" stone dust.........lay your pattern (like a puzzle) and don't worry about overhanging edges, mark the outline of the patio/walk with chaulk and use a stone saw to cut + edgeing to keep everything put

don't need a plate tamper, light hand tamping is plenty.........too much will cause the finer particals to settle and your left with what is almost like gravel on top which isn't very stable (let things move more)

ltos of tiems they're loose fitting, maybe 2" joints depending on what you can do with the stone

don't be afraid to use your stone saw to make things fit, just beat it up with a chissel to make it look natural again...........patios often will be very close fitting.........1/2" joint +/- which you then have to do a lot of cutting sometiems depending on the stone

sweep dust over top when finished, hope that helps

Green-Pro
06-10-2006, 12:05 PM
Yep, thanks. My biggest questions pertained to what to sweep over the stones to fill the joints and how to border/edge it.
Thanks again

zedosix
06-10-2006, 09:08 PM
I have tried with sucess to sweep a polymeric sand over the flagstone. I have used it on my own place and on a couple of my clients patios. Works very good. Stays hard and is flexible. Just make sure you get at least a half inch or so deep. Lightly mist it with water and it turns hard in no time.

Green-Pro
06-10-2006, 11:08 PM
I have tried with sucess to sweep a polymeric sand over the flagstone. I have used it on my own place and on a couple of my clients patios. Works very good. Stays hard and is flexible. Just make sure you get at least a half inch or so deep. Lightly mist it with water and it turns hard in no time.

I wondered about using the joint sand instead of dust. I also think it would tend to set up fairly hard when wetted a tad. Sure as he!! sets hard enough on a paver patio.
What do you use as a border restraint if any?
Thanks for the reply

zedosix
06-11-2006, 10:21 AM
Normally we don't use a restraint edge for flagstone. I suppose its possible with a little more work involved. In a sence the flagstone is somewhat like patio slabs so we just bring the earth and grass right up to the edge. Never really had any problems or call backs concerning lateral movement of flagstone or patio slabs for that matter. Try the polymeric sand it works great.

Redbear
06-13-2006, 09:19 PM
Does nobody base their flag patios as with pavers?

Randy Scott
06-14-2006, 11:53 AM
We've done several patios like you are inquiring about. I have also come to the conclusion that the polymeric sand in large quantities (large cracks and deep amounts) does in fact NOT hold up well at all. Unless you plan on some serious pitch to the patio, you WILL have trouble with the sand peeling up over time due to the water hanging in low areas of the sand and flagstone. I find the results unacceptable and we will not do it this way anymore.

I currently am doing some work at my home with flagstone and I'm saw cutting all the pieces so that I have 1/8 - 1/4 joints at the most. I'm setting them on a crushed compacted base and leveling them with about a 1/2 to 3/4 inch of sand. I will then use a small amount of polymeric to fill the cracks from there. I think having minimal crack size will help in the long run.

I think from here out we will either do only mortared flagstone or if the smaller cracks work out, we'll try some that way. Just the experience we have had.

zedosix
06-14-2006, 03:09 PM
Keep in mind there are many types of stabilzing sand. Yes it works better if the pitch is correct and the joints small. Easier than re-doing the joints in mortar every other year. Cheaper too.

Doster's L & L
06-20-2006, 12:09 PM
I couldn't help but notice that no one mentioned using grout in between the cracks. Is this due to the high cost of the grout? Also, would mortar not be a suitable "lay" for the flag on top of the crushed base or is sand all a person would need?

What i'm thinking is once the 4-6" base is dug and filled with the crushed limestone, (33c) and plate compacted, you could get good results by using mortar on top of the crushed rock, lay in the flag then once dry, lay in the grout. I know the grout makes a strong bond with the flag or any stone, but as far as it being flexible, i dunno. Is the stabilizer sand better than the grout for this type of application?

rake eye
06-20-2006, 06:05 PM
Alliance makes a great poly sand that we have been using on all of our installs this year. It is the best sand ive found. They also make a product called gator dust for flag installs. I have not had a chance to use it but they claim it will work in joints up to 4".

GreenMonster
06-20-2006, 11:17 PM
Green-Pro, you should PM my beatch Marcus. he does a lot of these, and he is quite good..... although I believe a little overrated.

you still hangin' here Mark?:waving:

Green-Pro
06-20-2006, 11:21 PM
Thanks Mark. I'd forgotten about him, seems like its been a while since he's posted pics of any flag work. Of course though no doubt we've all been pretty busy and could have missed a few postings LOL!

T-Trim
06-21-2006, 01:00 AM
the main point in a brick patio is flex. If you grout you're just going to have cracks.

Doster's L & L
06-21-2006, 12:40 PM
Thanks for steering me in the right direction Trim.

Zedo, if the mortar were to be sealed, along with the flag of course, is there still going to be alot of mortar to break?

MarcusLndscp
06-21-2006, 09:43 PM
Beatch huh!?

Yeah I'm still kicking around. I've just been swamped with work lately. You think you've done alright when memorial day deadlines are met and then the 4th kicks you in the arse for a second blow. We're winning the battle though which is good. Anyways.........

No, do not grout your stone over a crushed base it will crack the first winter and look like hell. Use your sand lok as it has flex to it when you dry lay.

If you want grouted joints you need to lay over a concrete slab

Pic one is dry laid and pic two is wet laid

Any other questions?

I'll post pics soon of what we've been up to lately....well, when I have as much free time on my hands as Greenmonster does.

Green-Pro
06-21-2006, 11:24 PM
All I can say Marcus is Wow!!! Also pictures are worth a thousand words, at least for me.

Thanks, anything you could add or any reference material you could point me to would be great help. I really want to try and nail the flagstone down as best as I can. I am primarily interested in using the dry method to lay the stones. What about edge restraint? What is your preference for the joints? When folks speak of dust in the joints is that a specialized material for flagstone joints or like a crushed limestone?
Sorry to throw all these ?'s at ya but like I said I want to get the mechanics down. Thats why I figured I'd put something in for myself and maybe a relative or two.

GreenMonster
06-21-2006, 11:31 PM
Nice work, Mark.

Who did it?

Green-Pro
06-21-2006, 11:58 PM
Nice work, Mark.

Who did it?


Ha ha Ha ha Ha LMFAO!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

MarcusLndscp
06-22-2006, 01:22 AM
All I can say Marcus is Wow!!! Also pictures are worth a thousand words, at least for me.

Thanks, anything you could add or any reference material you could point me to would be great help. I really want to try and nail the flagstone down as best as I can. I am primarily interested in using the dry method to lay the stones. What about edge restraint? What is your preference for the joints? When folks speak of dust in the joints is that a specialized material for flagstone joints or like a crushed limestone?
Sorry to throw all these ?'s at ya but like I said I want to get the mechanics down. Thats why I figured I'd put something in for myself and maybe a relative or two.

Dry method for us consists of a normal crushed gravel base of about 8-12" depending on soil conditons. It will be the same as what you would use for any other type of walk/patio. You should always use fabric beneath your base material. Unlike pavers you will have to individually set each rock as each one is obviously a different thickness. Wet set our flag in stone dust but concrete sand works as well. No need for edge restraint just pack the sides well with a good gravel or soil that will pack fairly tight. In your joints I highly reccomend using a poly sand. It will flex with the seasonal movements of your work unlike a mortar joint will. Some will just sweep in stone dust but you'll forever be resweeping it and dealing with weeds. If you have larger joints than what I have pictured and want a ground cover (thyme, moss, etc)between them obviously don't use the poly sand.

What else ?

Can anyone pic out one major aesthetic flaw in one of the two pics? It drives me nuts and is the project I did not personally install.

Mark you &^%$# &*^$&* jerk! Yes I installed one of them and the other was installed by one of our guys. My role has changed within the company and I am currently project managing more than I am doing the physical work. I'm intimitely involved with 6 different jobs right now and it's kind of hard sometimes not physically doing the work. But hey my back and joints have been more receptive to the job change!!! I hope things are going well for you and the fam....when are we going out on your boat?

A couple more............

MarcusLndscp
06-22-2006, 01:24 AM
and another one

MarcusLndscp
06-22-2006, 01:28 AM
One more out of really large flag

Doster's L & L
06-22-2006, 02:09 AM
Nice work Marcus! Are your flag chipped to fit evenly with the other flag or do your guys know how to pick the perfect stone to lay next to the last one really tightly?

Up North
06-22-2006, 08:25 PM
Nice looking work Marcus! I'll bet Mark (GreenMonster) was happy he found you to do his flagstone work for him...:laugh: :)

Hey Geoff, I got a couple patios at my house you can practice on too, load up some stone, gear, and I'll have a beer waiting for ya...:)

Buck

Green-Pro
06-22-2006, 08:27 PM
Nice looking work Marcus! I'll bet Mark (GreenMonster) was happy he found you to do his flagstone work for him...:laugh: :)

Hey Geoff, I got a couple patios at my house you can practice on too, load up some stone, gear, and I'll have a beer waiting for ya...:)

Buck

I'd be there in a Crawfordsville second Buck if I thought I could leave the monkeys in charge of the monkey house :dizzy:

sheshovel
06-22-2006, 08:52 PM
Or there is this way on a base of crushed and sand with pebbles to fill the joints.

Green-Pro
06-22-2006, 09:55 PM
Thanks for the idea She. We had a rain morning today so I went to the stone yard and nursery. Hardscape guys at the stone yard also recommend using the poly sand. I had thought this would work but glad I posted here and checked our local yard to verify.

MarcusLndscp
06-22-2006, 09:59 PM
Nice work Marcus! Are your flag chipped to fit evenly with the other flag or do your guys know how to pick the perfect stone to lay next to the last one really tightly?

It's a combination of both. I mostly chisel and hammer my edges but I also use a grinder at times depending on the type of flag we're using....different stones chisel and break easier than others. Alot of guys I work with use a cut off saw and cut everything but I think it takes away from the au natural look. I prefer working the stone rather than cutting it...it just looks better aesthetically.

Greenmonster hasn't let me do work for him yet as far as flag goes.......I think he's worried that once I do one for him that he won't be able to live up to my standard for the rest of his clients when he has to do them by himself. You know he's just one of those precast this precast that type of guys! :) :) :)

GreenMonster
06-22-2006, 11:15 PM
major aeshtetic flaw? Hard to tell with all the friggin' tools laying around. In pic 1, I see a real small stone in front of the steps, plus another little guy in there too. I think both jobs look quite nice though.

So, you like your new woman job? Pushing paper, sharpening pencils, and kissing the azz of the hoity toity on Lake Winni? I knew you'd only be able to handle moving stone for so long, Betty. You guys have an open invite to come over and spend the day on the boat. Only problem is you need to have your wife stop leading you around by your wee wee for a day, looking at napkins, table cloths, invitations and photographer and DJ resumes. :laugh: Bring your fishing pole over and we'll catch bass and have the women chase beer for us all day.

I have a nice bluestone walkway coming up. If you apologize, I may let you come over and schlep stone for me all day.

hey, I got your precast right here

OX Landworks
06-23-2006, 01:45 AM
It is crazy how many different ways we all come up with to do the same job. As for edge restrains, I have used 4" Steel edging. For my flagstone bases I excavate about 6-8", compact well with a compactor, lay in the edging, lay 4-6" of screenings and compact, then one inch of sand for leveling. That is what I lay the stones on, then I sweep in sand mix cement and wet down well. It has worked very well for me so far.

MarcusLndscp
06-23-2006, 08:32 PM
Mark....that rock looks sweet built into that wall and the cuts like quite nice around it from the pic. What I really like is the way you handled the water from the downspouts......those green pipes look great laying there! Who gave you that idea??? Your 3 year old?:laugh:

GreenMonster
06-23-2006, 10:42 PM
Mark....that rock looks sweet built into that wall and the cuts like quite nice around it from the pic. What I really like is the way you handled the water from the downspouts......those green pipes look great laying there! Who gave you that idea??? Your 3 year old?:laugh:


LMAO, yeah the downspouts are temporary. The gutter guys is fixing them.

Thanks for noticing.

The entry looks so nice because I did very little of the work.