How much competition?

[casey]

Just curious how much competition there is for smaller residentials that are better suited to a 36WB and 21" in your area?
Do people with properties that size have money in your area?
Is that an untapped market?
Do you have those type of properties at all?

[Scag48]

Quite a bit here. But they're all lowballers and I'm not really afraid of them, I just don't like the way they operate. I just do the best work I possibly can and try to be on top.

[joshua]

most lawns that i cut are between 20,000 sqft and a few acres, but their are some smaller lawns, nothing the size of what you mean. but the lowballers get them most of the time, unless the person wants to pay more to have the lawn looking better.

[Keith]

Just curious how much competition there is for smaller residentials that are better suited to a 36WB and 21" in your area? Better suited to a 36 or 21? A 60 rider works perfectly. Yeah, theres a good deal of competition for them. A large percentage of lawns here are exactly like this.


Do people with properties that size have money in your area? Yeah, but they don't like to spend it

Is that an untapped market? pretty well tapped

Do you have those type of properties at all? yep, quite a few

Thinking about a move casey? :p

[John DiMartino]

Most small residentials here are cut by the boy next store for 10 bucks a week, for a 10K lawn,all bagged.I think anyone who trys to make momey competeing with the kids that mow are fools,you cant compete with them,they have no overhead,moms mower,and nothing but time.I only do 1/2 acre and larger,and commercial is my prefference,since insurance is required,something not a lot of guys here carry,keeps the lowballers away.

[dmk395]

I was that kid a few years back. LOL

[kutnkru]

There are many homeowners who have properties that range in size from 6 to 10m/sf. They mostly pay between $25-35 a cut for mow and trim.

Many homeowners are beginning to gripe more and nmore about guys running the z's on their properties and looking to walkbehind users for service.

[casey]

I'm finding an excess of work doing small middle to upper income customers with lots suited to 36 and 21. I'm wondering why their arn't more guys going after this market? I can do 3 to 5 of these lots in an hour at 17 to 20$ a lawn.
There are scrubs but most of the pretenders fall off during the spring growth.
I've got so many calls "...he just never showed up again"
The large properties are bid on by so many LCO's that they end up working for penuts.
Does anyone else focus on smaller residentials?

[grassyfras]

I do alot of them. A lot of trimming though. You can easily get about 5 in a row and do them in 2 hours with a 36" thats without velke.

[gusbuster]

Though I have some clients (about 20) that I could use a 36" on, most of my maintenance accounts are cut with 21". I would be switching machines way to often if I used both 36" and 21". I would loose so much time loading and unloading the bigger machines. Everybody that I now that works in the same area as myself uses 21" machines.
Check you this page and you'll see how close the houses and small the gates are.

http://jlclandscaping.com/lawnsite/so_many_houses.htm

John

[casey]

Gusbuster,
"most of my maint. acc. are cut with a 21"
Thank you. This is the first voice of sanity, I have heard in this forum.

[gusbuster]

Originally posted by casey
Gusbuster,
"most of my maint. acc. are cut with a 21"
Thank you. This is the first voice of sanity, I have heard in this forum.

Casey
Just much more economic and practical for me. Sometimes some people on this forum think that my way is the only way. They just need to realize that there are always two sides to a piece of paper. I would love to see any of these guys that claim 36" mowers are best for small yards work solely with this size machine in the area's I serve.

John

[Atlantic Lawn]

There is so much competition around here that it's becoming a "buyers market" these guys come and go by the month . People who shop for price alone get what they pay for.......

[kris]

Casey.... We don't even think about getting into that market..please I need a real honest answer....you say you do 3-5 hour...how many $17 dollar houses do you do without loading the truck up and having to travel? I am not putting you down..to each his own and everyone finds there niche to make the money ,that is needed for THEM. We just could not do it.

[Charles]

I swear while i was out yesterday, I saw a lawn service co or 2 for every block in our city. Small outfits, big outfits, inbetween outfits all over the place. Something has to give sooner or later. Its not likely that you could get many yards close together around here to make using small equipment profitable. You have to drive and lose valuable time and expense.

[Richard Martin]

There are no less than 25 to 30 LCOs serving my community of 3,500 people. Most (95%) of the lots are around 10k to 15k sq ft. Generally the smallest mowers that the "pros" use is a 36" wb. The largest mowers are 60". The only people you see cutting an entire lawn with a 21" are homeowners. Sorry guys, that's just the way it is. Even in the retirement community nearby, which has postage stamp sized yards like in your pictures, the mowers of choice are 36" to 48" hydros.

[machine]

I have been in the residential mkt for 14 years now. Here is my take on things.

We only bid properties, home values 300,000+, and in a good route area, so drive time is limited. Working in areas where home values are 300,000 and down is problematic. That the consumers(blue to gray collar) are very price concious plus you'll have to spend a hell-of-alot time holding thier hand when work year round for them. (I was consistly on the phone or chatting with them on thier property)And True, there are a lot more shrubs and fly bye nights in that mkt.

We consentrate on Middle to Highend Residential, but the good clients are hard to fine. These clients are older professionals, such as dotors, attoneys, top executives, and retires that own vaction homes. These people are hardly on the property and you may only chat with them once a year, and thats all. We do you work for a couple large estates 1 mill +, where the home owners don't even live there, maybe a couple weeks out of year and thats all.

One thing, that shocked a fellow lawn guy. When I was doing a business plan presentation a couple years back, I stated that in this mkt, we were pulling in and average of $10,000 annual per customer just for maintenence. (Fert/Mowing/Spraying/Mulching/Snow/Leaves) He called that night to question me, cause he didn't believe it. I told him I would show him the numbers and the contracts thats have already been paid. Right now, we average more than that per customer. Just stated that because alot of customers don't realize how much they really pay on maintanance and landscaping year round. Thats why you have to be in a Mkt that can afford your services. Landscaping is not cheap, and should contitune to be a premium service.

P.S. I Still don't understand a shrubs mentality, I guess they will never understand what the word profit really means.

[machine]

Forgot to add the equipment we use for properties 3/4 to 4 arcers. We use a 2 to 3 man crew with Scag hydo Walkbehinds. Two 52" and One 61" with sulky. Also we will perform multi-tasks on the property once we arive, like Mowing,Fert,Spraying,Pruning and container planting. This limits repeat vists and provides good profit for being on the property only once a week.

[casey]

Richard Martin,
"only the homeowners use a 21""
Don't you have gated backyards? We can get a 36 through less than half the gates. Most props have smaller front lawn than back.
And yes when you factor in spraying, spring & fall cleanups, plowing, hedging etc., small res. pay off.

[TFL]

in my area this area of business is very untapped. all the big guys atrying to get the big commercial jobs when many of these people are willing to pay to have perfect yards.

[Richard Martin]

Originally posted by casey
Richard Martin,
"only the homeowners use a 21""
Don't you have gated backyards? We can get a 36 through less than half the gates. Most props have smaller front lawn than back.


Sure they have gates. When we bid the jobs we look at these and if the Exmark won't fit then we don't bid or we bid really, really high. We have also replaced a few 30" gates with bigger gates at the homeowners expense.

Don't get me wrong. I understand your reasoning for using 21s. If that's all that will fit in the yard due to width restrictions then that's what you have to use.

But you have to realize that in my market you would get eaten alive if you tried to be competitive on 10k sq ft properties with 21" mowers.

[casey]

Richard Martin,
"If the Exmark won't fit we bid really really high"
This is what I'm talking about.
There arn't enough pros, at least in my area, that are willing to do these props.
I usually end up doing 6 or 7 houses on a street if I get one account.
If I'm working with someone we can do 7 props with LB Com and 36 hydro in 1 hr 40 on average. At $20 a prop., again average for 15 min. cut, thats $140. Averaging 25 props per day. Factor in extras like hedge trimming, spraying etc..
Why do you not bid or "bid really high"?

[Richard Martin]

Originally posted by casey
Richard Martin,
Why do you not bid or "bid really high"?

Because I don't want these jobs. There are too few of them to bother trying to figure out how to cut 10k sq ft in 15 minutes with a 21" mower <i>if</i> it can even be done.

If I spend more than 30 minutes (15 mins to trim, edge, etc, 15 mins. to cut, working by myself) on a 10k sq ft I start freaking out. It simply takes too long to cut grass with a 21" mower to make these jobs profitable.

Like I said before "I understand your reasoning for using 21s. If that's all that will fit in the yard due to width restrictions then that's what you have to use".

[LJ lawn]

i use my 21" on 2 yards - one is a hill where i make about 4 passes and the other is a townhouse front yard about the size -12'x15'.that's about all i'll use it for.actually i can't stand to even have it on my trailer all week.i've had one phone call this year specifically requesting that the yard be done with the 21".i told him i couldn't do it.this guy was one of those "lawn nuts" with a BIG piece of lawn.the guy still only wanted to pay the regular rate to have it done though.as far as gates are concerened, this is why they make 32" mowers.

[KD'sLawns]

I only have 6 peices of property that I need my rider on, the rest I use my 21". I do many lawns that you could not even think about getting a larger WB or a rider on. 85% of all my customers are residential and I pick up new accounts all of the time because I use a 21". I walk like 20-25 miles a day. Most of my accounts are within the 5-8K range with some around 10k that I do with a 21".

Don't get me wrong, if I had some bigger lawns like most of you I would be using a ZTR full time also. Like the pictures that Eric posts. Could you imagine doing those with a 21" or even a 36"? So, there are different demands for different areas. Use whatever you can to make a profit. If everyone only bid on areas that they could use a ZTR, then you talk about lowballing. The Green Industry has many phases and facets, so find the one that suits you best.

[cutntrim]

Are you from around Toronto Casey? Cause around here in the suburbs most lawns are well under 10,000 sq.ft. and many are inaccessible with anything larger than a 21". We've always done smaller residentials but over the years we've tweaked our list so that on 90% of our properties we don't have to touch the 21" mowers. These are still small lots, but we're able to use our 36" WB's or our 52" rider.

[casey]

Cutntrim,
West end Toronto formerly known as Etobicoke.
I'd rather line up six or seven per street than have to only do the ones accessible with a 36 or 52 rider. If you keep driving around from job to job unloading, loading equip, that takes time. If I bumped the ones I could only use a 21 through the gate on I would loose 2 or 3 per street. Plus I can blast off a small res with a LB comm. faster than I can with my 36 hydro most times.

[LoneStarLawn]

If you get Lawn & Landscape Mag. you will notice an article on a company in Louisiana that have 6 21" mowers...there gross was over $800,000...So saying that only homeowners use them or that no professional use 21" mowers is absurd. What works for on may not work for another. That is why some make it some don't.

[gusbuster]

See casey,
There are other people that are of sound mind.(reply to comment on previous reply)
John

[HOMER]

Not me, I do enough walking with the edger.......trimmer.........blower.........I need to sit down every now and then. I also try to turn down any thing I have to use the 21" on, I have some but not many. If I had several employees that I could put them on it might be different...........I'm just too dang old now to make myself work harder................


25 miles a day:eek: