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Microbe
06-28-2006, 08:15 AM
Most of my new lawns are suffering from a tad of red thread and some even Dollar Spot in all sun locations. I fertilized with a bridge fertilizer to supply some quick nitrogen and seeded the areas hoping to out grow the fungus. Is there anything else I can do organically to help with fugus? A spray of some sort? I remember nocutting had something for fungus control, could have been a soap of some sort. I know that compost tea's are great for suppressing pathogens such as red thread and dollar spot. Anything else I can use?:confused:

Norm Al
06-28-2006, 09:58 AM
cut back on the water.

Neal Wolbert
07-01-2006, 02:02 AM
I know that compost tea's are great for suppressing pathogens such as red thread and dollar spot.

Just curious what research you are referring to...Neal

NattyLawn
07-01-2006, 08:56 AM
We added Sonata, a bio fungicide to our soil booster mix and had good results this Spring.

http://www.agraquest.com/products/sonata/index.html#stewardship

Similiar to what Norm Al said, push good cultural practices and def. find out when customers are watering. One customer insists on watering between midnight and 3 am and is calling us every other week about red thread. The red thread is absolutely perfect, like looking at a picture of it in a book. They can't get to the phone fast enough to call us, pay for us to fix it, then don't listen when we tell them how to correct the problem. Oh well.

Microbe
07-01-2006, 08:58 AM
Compost tea is loaded with benefical bacteria and other benefical organisms which when applied to area's moderatly affected by certain types of fungus or damaging pathogens, the good "guy's" suppress and eventually balance out the ratio between good and bad resulting in control. Hey this might not be the perfect terminology or PHD perfect, but to a large extent this is true and easy for a homeowner to understand.

Neal Wolbert
07-01-2006, 01:35 PM
Microbe;
I understand the philosophy, and the generalizations but what about the evidence...Univ. studies, etc.?
Neal

TurfProSTL
07-02-2006, 01:31 AM
Composted poultry manure seems to suppress turf disease, according to

http://www.nutrientsplus.com/Diseasesynopsis1.html

Its been working for me.....

Microbe
07-04-2006, 10:17 AM
I dont' get it... When it comes to lets say Prescription medicine they had billions of dollars and all the right people, equipment, and whatever to "prove," that "viox," works..... Then it kills people.... They can't scientifically prove that ALL THE PRESERVATIVES in our foods cause cancer, high blood pressure, and whatever else, so what does that mean, they don't harm the human body drastically? I mean jeez... WERE JUST LEARNING ABOUT FREE RADICALS AND HOW THEY HURT THE BODY LOL!!!!!! So your saying that because there is no scientific experiement done that costs 10 billion dollars to finish, your saying that compost tea's dont do anything? You need scientific proof? Are you kidding? What you need proof that LUTIEN actually prevents the eye from breaking down? Keep waiting for proof you'll have very poor eyes one day. You need proof that eating vegetables and taking antioxitants actually slow down the aging process and make you much healthier? DAM cause if I did I'd be a very very unhealthy human being waiting for the GOVERNMENTS mad scientists to finially find one chemical in an apple that actually makes it healthy. They don't understand why herbal medicine only works when you use the "WHOLE," plant and not the isolated greedy chemical so some genus can get rich off of. THEY WON"T TELL YOU IT WORKS BECAUSE THEY CAN"T MAKE MONEY OFF OF IT!!!!!!! Why would they perform an experiment on organics, there's nothing to isolate or patent to an extent. They oil companies and chemical companies can't make money from COMPST TEA, why because ITS NATUAL, IT WORKS, AND YOU CAN"T MAKE IT IN A LAB! THIS WORLD IS A JOKE IMO IN SO MANY WAYS.... You people always need scientific proof, if you had CANCER would you wait for scientific proof that says "JUICING, HERBAL HEALING, REIKI, MASSAGE, AROMATHERAPY, NUTRITION THERAPY, MEDITATION ACTUALLY WORKS?" NOOOOOOO You'd ask the old healer with generations of wisdom what works... NOT MR> GOLDENFARB PHD who's only option to get rid of a disease is to treat the symptoms... not the whole picture... Mr.. You have a head ache ok... TAKE ADVIL AND TYLENOL THEY WORK AND ARE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN TO DULL PAIN.... BUT WHY DO YO HAVE THE PAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE??????????? MR. GOLDENFARB PHD SAYS DUHHHHH I DON"T KNOW! YOU SEE MY POINT? YOU DON"T TREAT THE LAWN WHEN IT HAS SYMPTOMS AND THEN COUNT ON A CHEMICAL THAT is scientifically proven to kill lets say red thread but do nothing to help the lawn overall, or the soil that the grass is growing in period. NO MONEY NO RESEARCH NO PROFIT then hey I guess it doesn't work....

quiet
07-04-2006, 12:46 PM
I dont' get it... When it comes to lets say Prescription medicine they had billions of dollars and all the right people, equipment, and whatever to "prove," that "viox," works..... Then it kills people.... They can't scientifically prove that ALL THE PRESERVATIVES in our foods cause cancer, high blood pressure, and whatever else, so what does that mean, they don't harm the human body drastically? I mean jeez... WERE JUST LEARNING ABOUT FREE RADICALS AND HOW THEY HURT THE BODY LOL!!!!!! So your saying that because there is no scientific experiement done that costs 10 billion dollars to finish, your saying that compost tea's dont do anything? You need scientific proof? Are you kidding? What you need proof that LUTIEN actually prevents the eye from breaking down? Keep waiting for proof you'll have very poor eyes one day. You need proof that eating vegetables and taking antioxitants actually slow down the aging process and make you much healthier? DAM cause if I did I'd be a very very unhealthy human being waiting for the GOVERNMENTS mad scientists to finially find one chemical in an apple that actually makes it healthy. They don't understand why herbal medicine only works when you use the "WHOLE," plant and not the isolated greedy chemical so some genus can get rich off of. THEY WON"T TELL YOU IT WORKS BECAUSE THEY CAN"T MAKE MONEY OFF OF IT!!!!!!! Why would they perform an experiment on organics, there's nothing to isolate or patent to an extent. They oil companies and chemical companies can't make money from COMPST TEA, why because ITS NATUAL, IT WORKS, AND YOU CAN"T MAKE IT IN A LAB! THIS WORLD IS A JOKE IMO IN SO MANY WAYS.... You people always need scientific proof, if you had CANCER would you wait for scientific proof that says "JUICING, HERBAL HEALING, REIKI, MASSAGE, AROMATHERAPY, NUTRITION THERAPY, MEDITATION ACTUALLY WORKS?" NOOOOOOO You'd ask the old healer with generations of wisdom what works... NOT MR> GOLDENFARB PHD who's only option to get rid of a disease is to treat the symptoms... not the whole picture... Mr.. You have a head ache ok... TAKE ADVIL AND TYLENOL THEY WORK AND ARE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN TO DULL PAIN.... BUT WHY DO YO HAVE THE PAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE??????????? MR. GOLDENFARB PHD SAYS DUHHHHH I DON"T KNOW! YOU SEE MY POINT? YOU DON"T TREAT THE LAWN WHEN IT HAS SYMPTOMS AND THEN COUNT ON A CHEMICAL THAT is scientifically proven to kill lets say red thread but do nothing to help the lawn overall, or the soil that the grass is growing in period. NO MONEY NO RESEARCH NO PROFIT then hey I guess it doesn't work....

You really hit the nail on the head here! You shouldn't hafta PROVE something works. Just SAYING that it works, and shouting down anyone who asks for evidence to back it up, should be good enough. That's how the industry advances.

C'mon Neal, you usualy post very thoughtful, informative info; I mean, GEEZ! What's with the "just curious to what research you are referring to ATTITUDE"? Geez! C'mon get with the program, dude! We don't need no stinkin' research.

muddstopper
07-04-2006, 02:25 PM
I will have to do a search for the exact university study I read this in, so I guess I will get shouted at for posting it.

Compost teas contain thermodite bacteria's. These bacteria are whats responsible for breaking down the organic material into more easily digestable food sources for the benefitual bacteria. Thermodite bacteria do not help eliminate bad microbes anymore than they do the good microbes, actually about the same since they will consume either. The benefit from the compost teas are mainly from the increased water soluible nutrients that the teas contain. Any nutrient that has been consumed by plants is already in a root acid soluible form that can more easily be takenup by a new plant or new organism. The credit for increased nutrient availablity of the teas is usually given to the the microbes that the teas contain, and rightly so, but those microbes very quickly die off once sprayed onto the soil ( and even while in the tea solution) and the easily available nutrients are what the plants are really benefiting from. Not all compost teas will ever be the same. The nutrient levels in these teas is limited to the nutrients that are contained in the composted material. Microbes cant make nutrients that are not already there. If the composted material was grown in a soil that was deficient in a certain nutrient, then the finished compost will also be deficient in those same nutrients, as well, the compost teas will contain the same deficiencies

Now I guess I will have to start searching for my source of information, but go ahead and scream, I have my earplugs in.

Neal Wolbert
07-04-2006, 02:44 PM
I wasn't suggesting any of the things I seem to be being accused of here. Sorry if that's how you took my questioning. One of the reasons I don't visit this site very often is this very thing. There seems to be a mentality of "It works for me and it's organic so don't challenge my thinking!". I'm not trying to change anyones thinking except my own. I'm just trying to find any evidence that would support compost tea use in landscape care that goes beyond the basics of what compost tea is and what it might contain.

I have a little knowledge about organics. I own a small company that manufactures products containing organic components for landscape applications and a 46 year old treatment company that uses those products as well. So please don't lump me in with the critics of "going organic". I was simply hoping to open some dialogue that might provide a quote or two from a reliable scientific source, not one that sells products, equipment or services. I won't thumb my nose at evidence from a qualified lab. Much of our success and confidence gained providing landscape care can be attributed to good science, some backyard, some lab, but good evidence none the less.

I've grown my business and lived my life as a man of faith. Much of what is praciticed in both of my companies is done so because "it works" like we want it to, I'm not refuting that. To continue a practice that didn't "work" would be rather stupid, I'm sure you would agree. Certainly everything we do has an element of faith in it. I would like to have more to base my faith on than just how I feel about things, as important as feelings are in any faith walk. There is too much at stake here than just becoming a believer in compost tea because it works for some folks.

I would agree that the final "proof" is in the results or lack of results and that is all you and I have to sell...results. Some of the biggest mistakes I've made in my life were the result of not asking enough of the right questions. So that's what I'm doing and I thought I would take a chance with this forum. Maybe I was wrong. Are you up to the challenge or should I assume you'd rather I sign off?
Neal

Neal Wolbert
07-04-2006, 02:56 PM
If you can find the study it would be helpful. Thank you for sharing this information. I think it is an objective look at some of the limitations. Certainly every compost tea will be different given all the variables. Everything has it's limits, even science.

America's great...,
Neal

muddstopper
07-04-2006, 03:35 PM
Neal,
For you I will look and see if I can find the study. I am not sure if the information I posted was on a website or if it was at one of the organic soil fertility workshops I attended. Anyways, since compost teas always seem to comeup in organic forums, wherever I did hear or read this information, it just registered in my mine, so it might take me a while to find the info.

Neal Wolbert
07-04-2006, 03:41 PM
muddstopper
No big hurry. Thanks for the effort.
Neal

muddstopper
07-04-2006, 05:55 PM
Here are a few links form independent site, ( meaning not somebody trying to sell something), I think will get you in the right direction.
www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/meetings/ CompostTeaTaskForceFinalReport.pdf

www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/ Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Compost%20tea%20again.pdf

http://mofga.org/mofgm04c.html

http://www.ofrf.org/press/Releases/PR.061804.CompostTeaPresentation.html

http://www.usga.org/turf/regional_updates/regional_reports/northwest/11-03-2003.html

www.acresusa.com/toolbox/ reprints/Dec03_Compost%20Teas.pdf

I think it is important to state that I am not against compost teas or their use. There is limited evidence that they do work toward disease suppression in certain cases. The brewing of compost teas, without the inoculation of the beneficial bacteria, will provide very little benefit beyond simply supplying additional nutrients in a root acid soluble form that the already present bacteria or the growing plants can benefit from. These same nutrients will also feed the pathogen microbes as well. In a fertile, aerobic soil environment, the benifituals will out compete the pathogens, not myth, or guess work, but established fact. In a non fertile or anaerobic environment, the pathogens will out compete the benefitual's. Teas provide little benefit in such environments and in fact might make the conditions worse. For a fertile and aerobic environment, you need three conditions to exist. Chemical, physical and biological. The chemical conditions are the nutrients needed to sustain life. Physical is the pore space to hold air and moisture, and the biological is the microbial life that lives in the soil. Once the chemical balance is achieved, the physical structure of the soil will improve and consequently, so will the microbial life. Simply adding microbes to the soil will not improve the overall condition of the soil except for the chemical content of those microbes. That chemical content will be all the nutrients at what ever level the microbes contain, and those chemicals will become food sources for other microbes that will feed on their dead bodies. Without additional food sources being continually added, microbial life will decline, it wont be totally eliminated. Once the chemical balance of the soil is restored, which will also restore the physical structure of the soil, microbial life will rebound, without the addition of, or inoculation, of other microbes. The addition of additional microbes only speeds up the process. Feeding the soil isn't simply adding microbes to the soil, it is replacing the nutrients that have been lost, either thru leaching or thru crop removal. Compost teas will supply additional nutrients but over application of microbes can lead to mining of the soil of its valuable nutrients as well as soil humus. This is even more so if you are removing crops or removing clippings from your lawn. Soil contain nutrients that are not easily accessible to plants. These nutrients can be made plant available with the addition of microbes. The problem with just adding microbes is that those nutrients that are made available thru microbial inoculation will be depleted of those nutrients. Sometimes this process of soil mining with microbes takes a couple of years to be realized, but once the process has been completed, plant quality will decline. Yes, you might see sizable gains on plant quality the first year or two that you use microbial stimulants, but if you are removeing your grass clippings or removing crops from your gardens, you are removing valuable nutrients that cant be replaced with just the addition of more microbes. Even mulch mowing or topdressing doesnot replace all the nutrients loss by leaching or other means, unless your topdress contains the nutrients that are missing. Compost and compost teas will only contain the nutrients that where in the material they where made from. If that material is deficient in a certain nutrient, then the compost or tea will also be deficient.

Norm Al
07-04-2006, 07:06 PM
its funny that people in the organic world will attach onto a product if the gurus say it works and then when a product is provable that it works,,,,,,they try to come up with a reason not to use it.

muddstopper
07-04-2006, 11:47 PM
What are you trying to say Norm al. If your jabbering was directed toward me, you can come on out and say what you mean.

I amnot trying to convince anybody whether to use compost teas or not to use them. I have never used them myself and dont intend to start now. I am just trying to post relevate information pertaining to the feasibilty of using the teas, if someone so chooses to. You dont have to take my work for anything I post, I try to be as accurate as possible but you are free to use your computer to do further research to either prove or dis-prove anything I might write. Either way, whether you disprove or prove my post, your future posting would provide knowledge instead of just wasting bandwidth.

mrkosar
07-05-2006, 02:16 PM
I personally have heard many stories and seen pictures of trees/lawns using only composted teas. This was from a salesman though. I am very interested in trying out compost teas, but it seems like a big hassle and financially tough to just sample this type of product. From what I have read I need a compost brew kit, quality compost (which is hard to obtain in this area), and I also need to spend many more hours learning how to brew it correctly. So, where I see how compost teas scientifically could work, it is hard to test this out in a smaller scale before investing thousands of dollars offering it to my customers.

The original post that microbe was having trouble with red thread and dollar spot is relevant to me also. I would like to know other products that cure these diseases without loading the lawn with fungicides. The Sonata Biofungicide looked good, but it didn't say it was for either of these diseases. Correct? Any other suggestions before Norm and Muddstopper go at it?

Norm Al
07-05-2006, 04:28 PM
This was from a salesman though

and bingo was his name-o

no mudskipper that really wasnt directed at anyone in particular.

TurfProSTL
07-05-2006, 10:11 PM
OK, what I've seemed to have absorb through the years is that both Dollar Spot and Red Thread are often problems in under-nourished turf. Not always, but often or sometimes.

I haven't had much of a problem with Red Thread over the years, with the possible exception of homeowners' lawns I've estimated in the spring that gave up on their prior fert companies mid-season the previous year.

I've had alot of experience with Dollar Spot, however. I would be a fool to say all the lawns that get it here are under-nourished, as I've seen well maintained properties get it - right along with some virtual goat ranches.

What I can say, however, that in the Zone 7 lawns I've seen, is that Dollar Spot seems to like Ky bluegrass (although I've seen it on every turf-type here), it occurs in late Spring when grass growth starts to slow down, and is especially bad on lawns needing their next regularly scheduled feeding. Go a couple of weeks past schedule, and you're going to have Dollar Spot waiting for you on Round 3.

Heck, I started with a company 4-5 years ago that was still doing Round 2 (organically BTW) in mid-June. Those lawns were eaten up by Dollar Spot.....

Anyway, I think the key is to keep your lawns actively growing through early summer. Once your average temps get over 60-80 degrees, your out of the Dollar Spot woods, so to speak, and better start watching for Brown Patch (fescue) and Summer Patch (KBG).

Composted poultry manure (see my link above in this thread) is supposed to suppress some of our most common turf diseases. Why doesn't feeding the turf/suppressing disease with this type of product make sense?

It works for me.....

NattyLawn
07-05-2006, 10:23 PM
I agree TurfPro. The best prescription for red thread and dollar spot is to push growth and mow off. I was a little late with Round 2 and some of the lawns got hit pretty hard with red thread. After this 13 inches of rain last month, pushing it out shouldn't be a problem.

I think Neal has a good point here. One of the problems with organics is there's not enough scientific data to back things up. A lot of times you're going off of he said she said word of mouth feedback, and then you talk to someone else and they say something completely different. By then you have 2 G's invested in a brewer and now you don't know what to do with it. You can look at it as good or bad, but I think it's good, is that with organics you have to have the patience to play and learn as you go. I was told tea would suppress diseases, did some research, and went nuts on some brown patch last summer. Did it suppress the disease? Yes. Have I already checked that spot this year? Yes, and no disease return yet. We'll see after the rain and humidity we've had lately.

For around 80 bucks you can buy a 5 gallon brewer, and can acquire some 5 gallon kits (tea, food) as well. It's not that difficult. Filter the water source, make sure the water is at a suitable temp. (68 degrees is perfect), let the water aerate for 5 minutes to remove chlorine, add the tea kit and let brew for 12 hours. The kits are approved by the Soil Food Web, but Mudd brings up a good point by asking where there compost comes from and what nutrients does it have an abundance of or lack. Something to look into to.

mrkosar
07-05-2006, 11:06 PM
for $80? i would really like to test compost tea out. if you would push me in the right direction i would appreciate it.

muddstopper
07-06-2006, 12:02 AM
Dollar spot is usually a sign of potassium deficiency. that doesnt mean your soil doesnt contain enough K, the K might be locked up because of other nutrients in excess. Sometimes a little k will stop dollar spot. compost teas made with manures and wood products are high in K, and its in a form the plants can readily use.

RedThread is usually contributed to a nitrogen deficiency. Adding a high nitrogen fertilizer will help grow it out. Compost teas are also high in nitrogen.

Now the question is did the compost teas help because of the additional microbes, or did they help simply because they added nutrients in a form the plant could readily use. I dont have the answer to that question, altho I suspect the readily available nutrients are what provided the short term benefit, but some of the so called experts that have a product to sell are going to be quick to give the credit to their product.

quiet
07-06-2006, 12:58 AM
I think Neal has a good point here. One of the problems with organics is there's not enough scientific data to back things up.


Exactly. And that becomes somewhat disturbing when selling that to a customer who pays for and has a right to expect results from a professional's recommendation. The CGM study is a prime example: when UC-Davis tried to replicate the results of Iowa's findings, they were inconclusive at best. Replication is the key to validation in all scientific studies. Yet CGM is now marketed as a fertilizer and crabgrass control!



You can look at it as good or bad, but I think it's good, is that with organics you have to have the patience to play and learn as you go.




I have the patience . . . on my lawn. But then again, I have customers that want to see results. And I want to able to charge for that service, and produce the results. Without concrete data, tested and verified application rates and/or timings, and direct cause and effect results, we begin treading a very fine line between being a professional service provider vs. a snake oil salesman.

On that note, I include organic based fertilizers blends (most recently, Composted Poultry Manure blended with Methylene Urea) in several of my application throughout the year. There's usually the "Feel Good" response from customers, and since it produces the gorgeous color response from the MU (and the previous MU + Ammonium sulfate applications) everyone is happy. But I can't, in good conscience, sell those applications as having disease suppression properties. I need data.

quiet
07-06-2006, 01:01 AM
Whoops sorry Natty. I mistakenly included my comments (starting with the word "Exactly") as part of your quoted post. My apologies.

TurfProSTL
07-06-2006, 03:31 AM
Good discussion going on here.

Guess I'm old school or just been too long in the 'Show Me' state. The snake oil salesmen are the guys that need PATIENCE if they want a big order out of me. I gotta see something (and again and again maybe) to make a believer outta me.....

Norm Al
07-06-2006, 09:01 AM
wow an honest and fair discussion,,,,,,it was worth gettin out of bed this morning,,,,,press on!

Neal Wolbert
07-06-2006, 12:02 PM
There are proven ways to introduce biological components without wondering what they are or if they are viable and will benefit the plant life. There are products on the market that are OMRI approved (if you want that) that can easily be mixed in a fertilizer solution or applied by themselves. They are stabilized ferments that have microbes and biostimulants in them that are identifiable and have research data to back them up. My company has been applying biologicals with synthetic fertilizers for years and the results are obvious. We've used biologicals for thatch control with consistent success for years and we didn't have to buy any more equipment or brew anything, just pour from a jug, mix and go.

The addition of endo mycorrhizae (for turf roots) by topical liquid and dry application is a common practice now in many areas. These too are proven by science and there is tons of research to back them up. Since these and other biologicals (fulvic acid for instance) are on the market and reliably researched, it seems prudent to at least consider them. They are not hard to obtain and not hard to apply. Why not?

Your thoughts anyone?

Norm Al
07-06-2006, 04:32 PM
OMRI only aproves that the product is organic,,,,NOT that a product works.

Norm Al
07-06-2006, 04:33 PM
OMRI only aproves that the product is organic,,,,NOT that a product works.

what we need is an OMRI+ITWORKS rating for products :)

muddstopper
07-06-2006, 08:16 PM
The mycorrhizae that turf grass assocites with is VA mycorrhizae. You cannot apply VAM to the soil surface as a powder or as a drench and get results. It must be placed in the root zone. If you are applying to the surface of the soil and think you are getting results, you are just fooling yourself.

Neal Wolbert
07-06-2006, 10:03 PM
Check out the info at http://www.mycorrhiza.com/index.php?cid=5. At areation the spores can be sprayed on the surface and watered in with success and is recommended. On the surface at seeding and early growth stages also. It is my understanding their ultra fine endo can be applied to the surface and watered in. I have a call in to Dr. Mike to confirm and I will stand corrected if I'm wrong. I will let you know what they say.

We inject endo/ecto mycorr. in the root systems of trees and shrubs as a rule but surface applications where feeder roots are shallow will result in colonization as long as there is root contact, like you say. In mulched tree root zones, feeder roots can be as shallow as 1/2" -1" so no need to apply very deep, certainly not below 4". We've used endo on turf in the past and got colonization counts of 25% and higher, confirmed by Dr. Mikes team.

What has been your experience?

Neal

muddstopper
07-07-2006, 10:09 AM
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 21:19:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I already have some BioPak and am experimenting with some vegetable seeds in pots. Just potted last weekend. I have also tried the BioPam tackifier. Good stuff for holding the soil.

Since Endo type Micorrhiza will flow down thru the soil with water. What, if any benefit could one expect on grass planting using the Endo Instead of the VAM.




Michael Kernan Ph.D.
Technical Services

498 Posts
Posted - 04/13/2006 : 17:03:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are confused. VAM is a type of endo, and will NOT move down through the soil. It is the Ecto type that moves down, and Ecto will not colonize grasses. Most plants associate with only one group of mycorrhizal fungi. These groups are Ecto, and 3 different types of Endo: VAM, Ericoid, and Orchidaceous.


Above is a question I asked of Dr. Micheal Kernan and his answer. I also asked the same question to Dr. Don Marxx, ( do a websearch and see who he is) I dont have a copy of his reply simply because I asked him in person, but his reply was the same.

With core areation and watering you might wash some of the VAM fungi down into the areation holes and get some limited benefit. One must remember that VAM is not mobile thru the soil, the grass roots must grow to the fungi before it can become established. Now all this bull about ultra fine endo, is just that, BULL. I dont care who your DR. Mike is. VAm fungi is a spore and that spore cant be broken down into a finer size than it exist naturaly without killing the spore. Equate it to running your own body thru a grinder, what comes out is still you, but it wont be alive. Vam spores are to large to translocate downward thru the soil or even move lateraly thru the soil. It must be carried by the host plants roots. This is why the roots of the plants have to grow to the spores and why the spore dont move to a food source. Vam is also very sensitive to sunlite. Left laying on top of the ground for even a short lenght of time will certainly kill the spores. A lot of companies get their Endo spores from plant roots and they grind thoses roots down to a powder for application. The finer the power, the higher their spore counts. The problem is, yes those powders contain spores, but how many of those spores are still alive. Even tho you are getting a high spore count, the viable live spores isnt that high. Still they can claim a high spore count simply because the industry isnt regulated verywell. To say you wont get some benefit from areation and application followed by a well watered in product would be foolish, but injecting the same material into the soil would provide a better benefit and use less material since most of what you are broadcasting on top of the soil will die before it can ever do any good.

If you wont to attend a really good workshop and learn more about Mycorrhyzia, I can hook you up with Dr. Marxx. he holds a workshop two or three times a year at his home in Frogmore Sc. Its a two day workshop limited to no more than 20 people at a time. cost about $400 per person. I think he has one comeing up in Oct.

muddstopper
07-07-2006, 10:25 AM
cut and paste from your wesite.

When do I use mycorrhiza?

Sand/peat medium incorporated during construction of golf greens is generally devoid of mycorrhizal inoculum (Gemma et al 1997) and is a prime candidate for achieving the benefits of the mycorrhizal relationship. Mycorrhizal inoculum can be incorporated during construction and aerification. Mycorrhizal propagules are then incorporated into the rooting zone where they will be effectively utilized.


Figure 11
Mycorrhizal inoculum should be incorporated both spring and fall for several years until healthy populations of mycorrhizae are established. Mycorrhizal colonization assessments are simple tests now available at many soil testing laboratories. Incorporating mycorrhizal inoculum during aerification is an appropriate way of developing a mycorrhizal network in the soil even for greens not inoculated during construction (Figure 11)

I highlited the part about incorporation so you wouldnt miss it and the part about areation so you would know i didnt miss that. I asked the question about areation before to Dr. Kernan and Dr marxx, yess it works but not the best method of application. since you are already using injectors for shrubs and tress, i might suggest that you give it a try on your turf and see if you can tell a difference. 16 inch spacing and no deeper than the root zone should do the trick.

Norm Al
07-07-2006, 03:56 PM
does treated city water kill Mycorrhyzia,

muddstopper
07-07-2006, 10:56 PM
I asked that same question Norm. I was concerned about the clorine. According to Dr. Marxx, normal chloridated water wont adversly effect the mycorrhizia. Of course chlorine in excess isnt good for the grass either. Mycorrhizia creates a sort of mucus around themselfs that supposly helps protect it from severe extremes of different conditions. I know for a fact that ecto mycorrhizia is thriving in a severly contaminated soil about 20 miles from where i live. The pine trees planted there several years ago are now almost ready for harvest. That site had been replanted several times and failed before mycorrhizia was used to treat the pine tree seedlings. The soil was so acidic that it would actually eat the soles off of the workers boots. pH around 2.5. I can remember growing up that whole area was bare, even weeds wouldnt grow.

Neal Wolbert
07-09-2006, 02:48 AM
muddstopper...

Thanks for the research time, I appreciate it. Interesting info on the sources of mycorrhizae as well as their mobility. I understand that Myco-Apply gathers mushrooms from natural stands for their mycorrhizae but I'm not sure how they process it beyond that. I'll find out though, unless it is proprietary of course. I know their ultra fine powder will pass through a 70 mesh screen making it easily suspendable. Reaching the roots of turf through pourous soil in a new planting for instance, or through areation holes seems very possible applied with enough water. Assuming placement in the soil is achieved by whatever means, Dr. Mike Amaranthus stated the spores will stay vialble for years, allowing roots to grow to them for colonization. It seems prudent to expect a 70 screen suspension would move somewhat with water, as do wettable powder products. Of course that is all conjecture and theory on my part, and admittedly every situation would be a bit different. I do trust the company and their staff. They are one of the largest suppliers of mycorr. in the U.S. and have a great reputaion out here on the coast. I know they supply the Roots company with mycorrhizae.

The original idea of applying mycorr. with microbes and and fertilizers was to make their addition to turf a simple process, not requiring the expensive equipment and time spent on the brewing process for compost tea production.
That's why I suggested the over-the-top application in the first place, to save time, money and be able provide proven products. Certainly any natural compound will have to be handled with care and planning including compost tea, that goes without saying.

Responses can be determined by field studies and lab tests, and at some point that should no longer be necessary if the results are provable. That's when we become believers and then it's hard to shake us from sticking with what works. I'm open to looking for ways to improve and appreciate the open exchange of ideas and experience and it appears you are too. If we stop searching, the innovator and risk taker in all of us just goes to sleep, not a good thing.

Thanks again...Neal

muddstopper
07-09-2006, 08:09 PM
Ecto micorrhizia is gathered thur mushrooms and puff balls. VAM Micorrhizia is harvested from roots of actual living plants. This is usually from innoculated nursery grown potted plants like sugar cane. Ecto is great for woody plants but doesnt associate with grass plants. The ecto will translocat thur the soil and is carried on the wind to different sites. Vam doesnt translocate quite so easily.
Vam harvested from nursery stock is contained in the roots of the plants, these roots are cut down to finer particles. There is a limit to how fine the roots can be ground without hurting the Vam fungi. Again, a lot of companies sell Vam powders from groundup roots and claim high spore counts, and again, while the spore count might be high, the total number of live, viable spores is considerably much less. Also the actual count of the spores is subject to speculation. I would have a hard time placing faith in a company that is advertiseing an ultra fine grind to produce more viable spores. I know nothing about Dr. Mike Amaranthus or his company. True he has a Phd, but ????

Neal Wolbert
07-10-2006, 02:16 AM
I'll email them about the live spore count and then pass their answer along. If you don't mind I'd like to send your comments along to them, without identifiying you if you prefer. Any problem with that? Have you looked their website over yet?
Neal

muddstopper
07-11-2006, 06:44 PM
I am always looking for second opinons, by all means send my comments to them. Give them my email addy if you want to, muddstopper at yahoo dot com. Maybe they can explain their ultra fine grind process. At any rate, I look forward to hearing what they have to say. I havent looked at their site except for a few minutes after you posted the link. To many things to do and not enough time to do them all.

muddstopper
07-11-2006, 07:39 PM
Info about Micorrhizia

Neal Wolbert
07-22-2006, 12:02 PM
muddstopper,
I finally had a little time to email Myco-Apply about your concern regarding grinding roots for mycorrhizae. They concur with Dr. Ted St. John's views and respect him highly. They do not grind roots to obtain mycorrhizae. I will forward their responses to you via email. Thanks again for your time. I gained valuable information from the exchange, and I hope you did as well.
Regards,
Neal

DUSTYCEDAR
07-28-2006, 07:40 PM
finally some info i can use thanks for taking the time to explain

muddstopper
07-29-2006, 11:21 PM
I got to talk to Dr. Mike Amaranthus this week about the surface applying of Endo Mycorrhiza. He assured me that you could indeed broadcast teh material and then drench it inot the soil and said he would send me a study done on this very topic. Well, I recieved the copy of the study, disappointed i was when i read it. The study was done on container grown grass (Bentgrass) in a nursery. The planting medium was 93% sand and peat. The mycor spores where place on top of the planting medium and then drenched with a watering can containing 1 liter of water per plant container. Now this sort of test just doesnt make sense to me, Hell, anything will translocate thru a 93% sand and peat soil mix. I could probably wash a marble down into such a mix. There was also a follow up study done on a golf course green of Bentgrass. The mycor spores where surface applied and then raked into the soil, isnt rakeing into the soil incorporating into the soil. I guess research can be made to show whatever you want it to.

I also contacted two other companies that sell mycor products for use in a hydroseeding slurry. While both companies assured me that you could apply mycor spores to the surface with a hydroseeder, neither company could provide any studies where this had actually been done and neither company had any knowledge of such a study ever taking place.

I have also talked to two different Phds that sell mycor products that re-affirmed my position that surface applied Endo mycorrhiza will have a very poor chance of colonizing the plant roots simply because the mycor spores will die if exposed to the suns ultraviolet rays for any reasonable lenght of time. Endo mycorrhiza is immobile in the soil and must be tranfered thru the soil by the roots of the host plant. Even then the amount of actual movement can be measured in inches per year.

I stand by my statements that I believe some mycor colonization can occur thru surface applications of mycor spores, followed by watering, might provide some mycor colonization, better results can be achieved, and with less material, if you simply mix the mycor spores into the soil, at or near the roots zone of the grass being planted. This can be easily done on new lawn installs by broadcasting and tilling, or simply broadcasting before you lay sod. And on existing turf, the use of an pressurized injector with the mycor spores suspended in a liquid and injected to the already existing root zone.

Neal Wolbert
07-30-2006, 01:57 AM
Bill,
I totally agree with your last statements and I believe anyone you mentioned in the post would also. For those instances where surface application is the only or best choice, I believe it is worth the effort to apply endo and water it in, especially since we have had actual colonization counts in the 25% range in four different types of soil doing so. I would hope you will share your thoughts with Dr. Mike, I would be interested in knowing what his reply would be. Forward this post to him if you like.

Neal

muddstopper
07-30-2006, 02:48 AM
I will probably be talking to Dr. Mike again next week because I have a lot of unanswered questions.

The problem with applying the spores to the surface can be greatly reduced when mixing the spores with other benefitual microbes. Even Mycorrhiza needs other food sources than just plant root exudates. Mycor also establishes symbionic relationships with other microbes. There is much debate about the effectivness of mycor surface application, even other Phd's dont agree with each others findings. One thing for sure, ifs its science it should be repeatable which is an underlieing part of the problem. Most Phd's once handed that certificate just simply stop learning. They think they know it all and they aint going to believe anything until they prove it for themselfs. :hammerhead: That is what really puts people like you and me in the middle, who do we believe. On one hand we have a Dr. saying this product is the best thing since sliced bread, and on the other hand we have a Dr. saying the product is snake oil. Both have Phd's and both saleing products containing mycorrhiza. :dizzy: One thing all the scientist seem to agree with is that mycorrhiza is necessary for a healthy functioning soil food web. Now if we can just figure out a way to apply the product efficently.

muddstopper
07-30-2006, 12:52 PM
Well, I thought i would post this reply from another Dr. Michael Melendrez, owner of Soil Secrets and producer of Mycor spores. :confused:

William,



Well as I said, there are many opinions on this topic, but what we do at Soil Secrets that most other companies do not is that we are the grower of mycorrhizae while most others are just private label companies that purchase their product from growers putting the mycorrhizae into their own package. They may or may not use one to five strains of bacteria to go along with the mycorrhizae, but they do not use the thousands of species of indigenous mutualistic helper bacteria that we at Soil Secrets use. Nobody else in the country has a farm, greenhouses or labs that are capable of doing this, making Soil Secrets exceptional. As a grower we get to see a great deal more than the white coats of clinical work will ever experience. Most of the companies selling mycorrhizae are just private label companies as there are really only 3 or 4 growers that are of commercial size in North America.



It is easy to oversimplify the understanding of the mutualistic relationship of the endo mycorrhizal physiology with that of a plant if you look only at the spore as a large structure. The facts are that they are not all that large with some measuring down into the 104 power Angstrom Units in size, which is finer than that of fine dust. The vesicles of the endo mycorrhizae from the genus of Glomus can be even smaller and they can serve as propagation material as well. If that size particle cannot move into tight clay, you will not be moving water or gas exchange either. Furthermore, there are several other means of these materials germinating and infecting the host plant, particularly if you are dealing with seed. The spores, propagules and vesicles can all germinate on the emerging root radical of a grass seed as it germinates. To get the benefit research has shown that only 50 viable propagules or spores per square foot need to be present, not every single seed needs to be infected!. That’s high for most brands but not for Soil Secrets TerraPro which exceeds that count dramatically. Another means of infecting can take place at the soil/root-crown interphase of grasses where special tissues of the grass are receptive to being infected by both mycorrhizae and Endophytes. If you are not familiar with Endophytes, they are not mycorrhizae but provide similar benefits to grasses in increasing water and mineral nutrient uptake for the benefit of grass. Endophytes spread their spores by way of air as do most mycorrhizae, but as a rule do not travel far as they are pretty heavy. If spores landing on the surface could not infect host plants, why would nature use this strategy? Soil Secrets also provides Endophytic spores in our turf grade TerraPro product which no other competing Soil Microbial Inoculant product in the Country does. But word of caution, if you are hydroseeding pastures for ruminants you need to let us know because for that use we leave out the Endophytes which can produce phytotoxins not good for some animals.



In the case of the observational test plots used by Soil Secrets, the seed is buried approximately ¼” to ½” deep and covered with real soil, not potting soil. The top is capped with a thin layer of woody fiber mulch much like you use in hydroseeding. The soil and the mulch are first sterilized to make sure there is no indigenous bacteria or mycorrhizal material present before seed is added. The watering system is a micro-spray mist that cannot disturb the soil and force the mycorrhizae into the soil. The reason for the micro spray is not for that objective or to prove any point but rather to conserve water and to not cause erosion of the soil in the containers. We do not want any runoff or leaching of water through the containers as we are basically only matching our natural evaporation rate of the greenhouse with irrigation, nothing more. The containers are inside a 37,000 sq. ft. glass house so rainfall cannot play a role by disturbing the soil. We start all our host plants inside greenhouses in order to have tighter quality control with fewer environmental variables. We also have an 80 acre outdoor facility for growing over 300 species of woody and herbaceous plants as host plants. I’m quite certain that neither Dr. Marx or Dr. Kernan of Plant Health Care have ever seen a facility as large or complete as what we have at Soil Secrets. And I know for a fact that our sales are much greater than any competing company in this venue. But Soil Secrets goes beyond that as we also make compost, worm casting, Protein products, Fulvic acid, liquid humic acid, Humus, and we grow landscape trees. Our Composting operation alone has 5000 acres under contract growing the raw biomass material that we use in our In-Vessel composters, resulting in the production of 200,000 cubic yards annually, approximately $11 million in sales in just that product. Through my parent company Trees That Please we also grow 15,000 caliper size trees each year in RootControl bags that produce about $3 million in sales, with an additional $5 million in containerized trees also being sold.



So as you can see William, Soil Secrets is firmly established and going strong, and is really one of the few organic companies that is matching and outgrowing the In-organic fertilizer and chemical businesses in Agriculture. My company’s are not owned by Venture Capitalist, Investors or Share Holders as my wife and I are the owners.



As for research proving the points of what you ask, I suggest going to a Science Citation Index where you will find tens of thousands of published papers on this topic as well as other issues of mycorrhizae.



Dr. Michael

Soil Humic
07-31-2006, 05:48 PM
Mudstopper,

Thanks for the free advertising you did for Soil Secrets with the recent post on this forum, but that information was sent to you in a private email and was not intended to be displayed in that manner. Please ask permission to copy and paste emails from private correspondence, it's the right thing to do.

On another note from a post # 33 on July the 7th you talk about grinding roots to collect VAM. It was a little vague who actually made this statement but it appeared to come from Dr. Michael Kernan of Plant Health Care. My apologies to Plant Health Care and Dr. Kernan if I get this wrong but here's the statement that I'd like to reply to:

" Now all this bull about ultra fine endo, is just that, BULL. I don’t care who your Dr. Mike is. VAM fungi is a spore and that spore can’t be broken down into a finer size than it exists naturally without killing the spore. Equate it to running your own body thru a grinder, what comes out it's still you, but it won’t be alive"

Ok, here's the correct answer to ultra fine products being sold by Mycorrhizal Applications. They are outstanding products and the ultra fine nature of the product has nothing to do with the actual biological material in the product. They do not ultra fine the spores, that is done only to the carrier material which is simply the bulking material used such as clay or zeolite. Have you ever kicked a dry mushroom and seen a cloud of dust come out? Those are spores and they are tiny, so if we did not use a carrier to bulk out the product, it would be hard to spread the material. Plus, you would not believe you are getting your money's worth if we sold you just the spores. Imagine a thimble of spores for 50 bucks; you’d look at me like I was crazy. I may be wrong about Dr. Amaranthus and his objective with the Ultra Fines, but I think it has more to do with keeping equipment from getting plugged by the carriers. Equipment such as drip irrigation!

On another point, Soil Secrets is located in the arid Chihuahuan desert of New Mexico's high elevation - 5000 feet. We are the skin cancer capital of the world because of our elevation and southern latitude. I employ some pretty good people in the field of microbiology and plant physiology all with PhD's from the best schools. I also have a PhD and work closely with our R & D plus I own the company. Now we measure for both success and failures of mycorrhizae inoculations on both public and private lands all the time. And we often do Endo inoculations on the surface where revegetation with native desert grasses is being performed. We always check for pre-existing / endogenous microbiology to see if the inoculation is really needed. Guess what, the Endo Mycorrhizae spores do not seem to be bothered for at least a couple of years by the intense sun, aridity of the site, or the fact they were surface applied. And we get excellent infection as the grasses germinate. I also have a study that I’m preparing for the United States Forest Service BAER (Bare Area Emergency Response) Team on some forest fire sites of total soil incineration and worse case hydrophobicity. The objective was to establish rapidl vegetation succession which involves grasses and herbaceous ground covers. The soils were tested for the Endo group of generalist’s mycorrhizae and none could be found. The site was a Ponderosa Pine conifer forest before the fire and all soils had been incinerated including the roots of the trees! The sites were treated with a hydromulch including grass seed, woodfiber, Soil Secrets TerraPro and our Protein blend called Protein Crumblies. There were many replications, plus controls and other treatment protocols that did not have mycorrhizae inoculations. The results were superior generation of groundcover, rapid reduction of hydrophobicity, and the ground cover was infected well with mycorrhizae. The other treatment protocols without mycorrhizae failed to produce the same degree of germination, coverage of groundcovers and no change in hydrophobicity compared to controls.

Bottom line, don't worry about the sun

Dr. Michael Martin Melendrez

kelmcwalk
07-31-2006, 08:56 PM
www.ampacbiotech.net

muddstopper
08-01-2006, 08:35 PM
Mudstopper,

Thanks for the free advertising you did for Soil Secrets with the recent post on this forum, but that information was sent to you in a private email and was not intended to be displayed in that manner. Please ask permission to copy and paste emails from private correspondence, it's the right thing to do.

Micheal,
my apologies, you are correct, I should have asked permisson first. It wasnt my intention to endorse or discredit any person, but to try to determine who to believe in this ongoing discussion. I meant no disrespect.

On another note from a post # 33 on July the 7th you talk about grinding roots to collect VAM. It was a little vague who actually made this statement but it appeared to come from Dr. Michael Kernan of Plant Health Care. My apologies to Plant Health Care and Dr. Kernan if I get this wrong but here's the statement that I'd like to reply to:

My discussion with Dr. Kernan is posted in full text and is available to anybody to read on another internet forum, In other words, public information, nowhere did he make any mention of grinding spores and at no time have I asked him about grinding spores. The internet is full of information on that subject and is also discussed on many vendor products labels and brochures.


" Now all this bull about ultra fine endo, is just that, BULL. I dont care who your Dr. Mike is. VAM fungi is a spore and that spore cant be broken down into a finer size than it exists naturally without killing the spore. Equate it to running your own body thru a grinder, what comes out it's still you, but it wont be alive"

At the time that statement was made, I didnt even know who Dr. Mike Amaranthus was. I have talked to Dr. Mike by phone since that time and he doesnt grind root stock to get his mycorrhiza spores. My statement was based on advertiseing claims by other companies that sell mycor products that claim to cut the root stocks up to extra fine pieces to increase spore counts. Unless you know something different, most every scientist I have talked to seems to comfirm that there is a point of deminishing return if the root stocks are cut or ground up to fine. hence my statement, grinding roots to get spores also kills the spores. But I do appreciate you taking the time to explain a little about Mycorrhizae Applications' mycor carrier materials, and for vouching for the quality of his products. I am sure some here that use his products feel better about their material choices. And I guess this series of post also made others aware of your products as well. And I know I have learned a lot since the mycorrhiza series of post has started, here and on the other forum. Anytime I learn something, I feel like a winner, even if my ears are a little chewed on and my nose a little bloody

Norm Al
08-07-2006, 11:09 PM
Phosphite..................!