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procut
07-02-2006, 11:59 PM
Notice the poistion of the ROPS in the machene in the picture. Last week some 90 year old man came up to me and proceeded to tell me that "by law that roll bar needs to be up at all times, and I will get a fine if an 'inspector' sees me" There can't possibly be any truth to this??

EMWEB
07-03-2006, 12:10 AM
If you had an employee operating the mower it is possible that an OSHA agency could site you . . . But then again it depends on where you live and what sticklers they are . . . Lets assume you had a roll over accident and were depending on workmen's comp. Well they may decline to pay since you contributed to your injuries through your negligence . . . But real world, I doubt it will happen . . .What about all the mowers sold that do not have a roll bar . . ie Hustlers . . .

procut
07-03-2006, 12:13 AM
If you had an employee operating the mower it is possible that an OSHA agency could site you . . . But then again it depends on where you live and what sticklers they are . . . Lets assume you had a roll over accident and were depending on workmen's comp. Well they may decline to pay since you contributed to your injuries through your negligence . . . But real world, I doubt it will happen . . .What about all the mowers sold that do not have a roll bar . . ie Hustlers . . .
Makes sense.

jt5019
07-03-2006, 12:16 AM
90% of the mowers i see that have the roll bars are either in that position or taken off. I haven't heard of anyone getting in trouble for having them like that but if a accident did happen you will be liable

lzrj
07-03-2006, 12:23 AM
You will have to check with your local codes about that one. I know there is no federal law about it and I really doubt there is anything state or local about it either. Never heard of any city having a "ROPS INSPECTOR" :). If there was any federal law, every zero turn made would have the ROPS standard but it is not. The main reason I believe companies are starting to put the ROPS on more machines is to protect themselves against civil lawsuits in case you roll and get injured. The company will be protected in your case because yours has it and YOU decided to keep it folded. So you will have a hard time in civil court because the average joe still has some responsibility in their actions these day (if you can believe that, but every case is different). Someone else may know more that deals with it but I just think the old man probably heard something on the local news one night about roll over bars and thought they were talking about mowers. Who knows.

HOOLIE
07-03-2006, 01:19 AM
I'm just surprised that a 90 year old man would be familiar with the ROPS...you sure HE wasn't the Inspector??? :laugh: :laugh:

Brianslawn
07-03-2006, 01:32 AM
sounds like the old guy was lonely and wanted someone to talk to. you shouldve offered to take him out for coffee.

topsites
07-03-2006, 01:44 AM
I am not an employee, hence I do not concern myself with safety regulations concerning employees.
I am the owner / operator, hence I will concern myself with what I feel needs concern.
If I get hurt, that is my problem and only my problem.
All of this is nobody else's concern or problem.

It takes time, but after enough folks wasted my time I developed that look on my face that flat out sends the message to these jokers to don't come around no more. A few still do from time to time but I might get one / year, I used to get this kind of crap all the time.

i_plant_art
07-03-2006, 08:01 AM
sounds like the old guy was lonely and wanted someone to talk to. you shouldve offered to take him out for coffee.


better yet take him for a ride on the Z..... with the rollbar down of course.

Sandgropher
07-03-2006, 08:05 AM
Why wouldn't you use a safety feature ????

mcwlandscaping
07-03-2006, 08:12 AM
ROPS is a pita and a tree killer! it will get in the way and make things even more difficult than they already are.

Sandgropher
07-03-2006, 08:14 AM
ROPS is a pita and a tree killer! it will get in the way and make things even more difficult than they already are.


O.K no worrys i know some people don't like them but i never knew why.:)

SWD
07-03-2006, 08:36 AM
There is a difference between states and how certain Federal guidelines impact work in those states.
Certain employment at will states do not require rops for certain categories and situations whereas right to work states have differing guidelines.
A for instance: while completing a golf course in Tennessee, the work for the employees I supervised was per hour at no professional standard or prevailing wage. Equipment had to meet certain federal standards for limited safety requirements yet the grading tractors did not require a roll bar.
Now, transfer to Illinois, work was at prevailing wage, certain training standards HAD to be met prior to start of work, equipment was subject to a very strict interpretation of both state and federal guidelines, and everything self propelled HAD to have a rops.
What I am getting at is most states have some sort of policy that buttresses federal guidelines on things such as rops. This old gentleman very well may have been correct.

nobagger
07-03-2006, 09:28 AM
Like some one said before, why wouldn't you use it whenever possible? I can see during transport or a property with a ton of trees with low branches. Accidents can happen before you even know it, if it were me I would be using it whenever possible.

onahill
07-03-2006, 09:57 AM
Workman's comp will pay if you use the romps or not...... if someone gets hurt because of it. They are mot concerned with whos fault it is, there health care.

Now, OSHA on the other hand can(will) fine you. But if you tell them you will fix the problem right a way they will lower the fine.
There is allot if things that OSHA can get you for, ear protection (do you offer it to your employees, safety vest(orange or green) does you and your crew where them?

Removing the romps or not using it will only increase the fine from OSHA.
Workman's comp is health insurance while on the job.

How does a 90 year old man know all of this? I bet he can read:cool2:

onahill
07-03-2006, 10:07 AM
ROPS is a pita and a tree killer! it will get in the way and make things even more difficult than they already are.

Yea, it is much better to kill off an employee or two, than to break a couple of branches off a tree.
I thought you were a "professional", and knew what type of equipment to use on any given job site?
Use the right tool for the job?

Hell, cut down all of the trees, Bulldoze it flat, pave it and paint it green!!

problem solved lol.

Freddy_Kruger
07-03-2006, 11:25 AM
I developed that look on my face that flat out sends the message to these jokers to don't come around no more.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y166/MagdalenaDown/mean_face1.jpg

tacoma200
07-03-2006, 11:42 AM
Yea, it is much better to kill off an employee or two, than to break a couple of branches off a tree.
I thought you were a "professional", and knew what type of equipment to use on any given job site?
Use the right tool for the job?

Hell, cut down all of the trees, Bulldoze it flat, pave it and paint it green!!

problem solved lol.

The ROP's are dangerous also. I think they are a good idea but until you get used to them they are very dangerous. The first week or two you mow with them you are more likely to have an accident than with them off. After a learning curve you get used the clearence and you wont have as much problem. I've hit a few tree limbs at low speed and popped a pretty good wheely. Should I have been more attentive, you bet but after years without them it was hard to get used to. It would have flipped me over if I were going fast. I'm far from the only one with this problem. The problem is you may be concentrating on a mowing job and not notice the limb or whatever you passed. Hats often limit over head views due to the rim. After a week or two you should get the hang of it but all it takes is a second of inattention to get your self hurt with them on or off. I think they are a good idea but I keep mine down around trees. Not trying to argue just stating that they are a saftey device that can be dangerous also.

me1223
07-03-2006, 12:15 PM
I am not an employee, hence I do not concern myself with safety regulations concerning employees.
I am the owner / operator, hence I will concern myself with what I feel needs concern.
If I get hurt, that is my problem and only my problem.
All of this is nobody else's concern or problem.

It takes time, but after enough folks wasted my time I developed that look on my face that flat out sends the message to these jokers to don't come around no more. A few still do from time to time but I might get one / year, I used to get this kind of crap all the time.

I could be wrong on this, but aren't your employees your responsibility, also they are covered under your insurance and so you should be concerned with their safety. In addition should one of your employees be injured on the job and disability was denied because of the ROPS being down/off at the time of the accident you could probably be sued.

upidstay
07-03-2006, 02:33 PM
To answer Sand gropher's question, most guys step down the roll bars because they catch on tree limbs. Snaps them off, bends them down so that they can whack you in the head, rains tree debris down the back of your shirt...really fun stuff.
I would think it would only be a problem if one of your guys actually flipped a mower. Then it would be up to the lawyers.

grant087
07-03-2006, 02:50 PM
Why wouldn't you use a safety feature ????

we dont use ours a lot of time because of the enclosed trailer......i never put mine up unless were mowing on a hill......so 98 percent of the time we never use it......

StBalor
07-03-2006, 03:17 PM
I am almost 100% sure that if somehow an accident accured and you needed to rely on workmens comp. They would ask you what kind of mower you were useing and if all the saftey devices were in place. When you said no, i doubt you would get any money from them no matter how hard you tried.
As for being against the law for not having them in place? If you have emploees, then yes it is probably a law. If you are solo, i don't think it matters.

Let-it-mow!
07-03-2006, 04:23 PM
Yes, it is the law.

Under Code of Federal Regulations 29:1910 which is OSHA's standards Sections 101 and 252 tlk about ROPS. Other sections may too. OSHA applies to all "workers", not employees so even as a sole prop. you have to comply.

Chances are you'll never see an OSHA inspector and if you do, it's a fine of a few hundred dollars.

mowtech
07-03-2006, 06:16 PM
Something to think about. Another recent fatality that ROPS probably would have prevented.

http://www.washtimesherald.com/local/local_story_171120103.html

Lynden-Jeff
07-03-2006, 07:26 PM
I don't know if this has been said but in Ontario no rops is legal if the engine is under 20 HP hency why its common to see 19 HP ztr's. This is the biggest reason because bobcat does not come stock with a rops and its $800 if I wanted to add one. I don't use rops nor do I go anywhere where I may flip.

Cheers
Jeff

MOW ED
07-03-2006, 07:30 PM
Our prisons here are overfilled with LCO's that have done exactly as you have.
I am very surprised that you even admitted to that violation.

Kidding aside, I don't know of a law either but I know that the ROPS has good and bad. Just catch it on a tree doing full up and you will curse it and curse the fact you werent wearing the seat belt but roll backward down a hill without it and join the Halo club or worse have a funeral.
Just set a Playboy out on the sidewalk next time and give the old guy something to do.:laugh:

TLS
07-03-2006, 07:36 PM
It has to do with seat height as well. This is why Hustler doesn't need them, and their diesel's do.

I have several instances on each and every lawn where a ROPS would cost me considerable time and quite possibly my life. Even the foldable ROPS would be doing property damage on my accounts.

Mrk'sLawn
07-03-2006, 07:49 PM
Not sure on this but I think OSHA requires it if it's already on the machine. If you have a z that doesn't have it installed you don't need it and can't get into trouble. Don't quote me on this though..:weightlifter:

TLS
07-03-2006, 07:50 PM
OSHA only affects LCO's with employees.

fiveoboy01
07-03-2006, 09:13 PM
Something to think about. Another recent fatality that ROPS probably would have prevented.

http://www.washtimesherald.com/local/local_story_171120103.html

Not anywhere near enough info there to come to any kind of a conclusion.

cantoo
07-03-2006, 09:32 PM
ROPs won't fit into our cube van. We learned the hard way. Just lucky the motor stalled out before it got good enough traction to fill over backwards. I have 5 or 6 ROPs leaning against my barn now. We do cut some properties that would be better to have them on but nione are folding so it's pretty time consuming to take them on and off. Even have to remove the fuel tanks on the Bobcats.

Runner
07-04-2006, 12:18 AM
You're never going to see an OSHA inspector - especially being a small operation, and here in the state of MI.. However, yes it may be unlawful.....but I would be more concerned about the mattress police checking to see if you've torn the tags off your mattress that say "It is unlawful to remove this tag".

mowtech
07-04-2006, 12:20 AM
Not anywhere near enough info there to come to any kind of a conclusion.

Flipped over. No ROPS. Dead. What's not enough information?

MTR
07-04-2006, 02:47 AM
Most of LCO in my area do the same like in picture, folding them down, some even took out the top curve part. Only if you work as city or state employee who deal with landscape & lawns, then the rops will never come out, or fold.

yrdandgardenhandyman
07-04-2006, 03:26 AM
ROPS is a pita and a tree killer! it will get in the way and make things even more difficult than they already are.



One of the LCO's I know here, gave up a bunch of the city parks simply because they refused to trim the trees high enough for the rops. Most of the lower branchs are below 4 foot. They told him to use a push mower under the trees. :dizzy:
Last I saw, it was an old woman on a very old Snapper rider, rear engine, steering wheel, and she was going to town under those trees. Lawn looked like crap and the mower broke down after less than one of the parks. Comical if it wasn't so sad. It sat half done and looking like crap for a couple of days. Then, either the old lady went out and bought a good commercial mower or another LCO took it over because it was cleaned up pretty nice. Still the tree problem for the new LCO.

onahill
07-04-2006, 11:49 AM
I am almost 100% sure that if somehow an accident accured and you needed to rely on workmens comp. They would ask you what kind of mower you were useing and if all the saftey devices were in place. When you said no, i doubt you would get any money from them no matter how hard you tried.
As for being against the law for not having them in place? If you have emploees, then yes it is probably a law. If you are solo, i don't think it matters.

WORKMANS COMP. IS compensation.$$ Is for when your injured on the job and can't work. It pays you 2/3 of your income while you recuperate.
Trust me they don't care how or why you got injured.

OSHA. on the other hand only cares about the how and why you got injured on the job. (and yes it applies to every one even the owners or one man operations. Who do you think pays the fine? The employee? No! The owner does.)you. The law applies to everyone.


Example. I was a, he was positive for pot. Osha was asking how and why did this happen.

Workmans comp payed him $$ while he got better.

And we could not prove that he was High on the job, just that he had THC in his system. So, we could not fire him.




.

Rayholio
07-04-2006, 12:14 PM
If you've put yourself in a position that you and your mower is rolling down a hill, I don't think that any roll-bar will save you... I don't see a seat belt, so whats going to keep the roll bar from causing more damage to you as it rolls over your arm, leg or head?

gotta ask myself why the manufacturer decided that a roll bar is even necessary.. sounds like it's pointing out a design flaw. Maybe the mower is too top heavy? not capable of the inclines that other mowers are, such as grasshopper frontmounts... best case scenario, they wanted to provide a false sense of security..

TLS
07-04-2006, 01:00 PM
All ROPS equipped ZTR's DO have seatbelts.

Idealtim
07-04-2006, 02:13 PM
And what did the 90 year old guy say about every machine older than 2003 when NONE of them had ROPS. And besides, you shouldn't every be on a slope so steep your relying on the bars. I 'd rather be safe than sorry.

Rayholio
07-04-2006, 04:01 PM
I didn't see a seat belt in the pic.. but I still think that if you're rolling down a hill, then something that could be avoided has gone wrong before hand.. know the capabilities of the mower, and operate within those confines... if the mower isn't capable of slopes, then don't buy it. :)

AAELI
07-04-2006, 05:27 PM
You will have to check with your local codes about that one. I know there is no federal law about it and I really doubt there is anything state or local about it either. Never heard of any city having a "ROPS INSPECTOR" :). If there was any federal law, every zero turn made would have the ROPS standard but it is not. The main reason I believe companies are starting to put the ROPS on more machines is to protect themselves against civil lawsuits in case you roll and get injured. The company will be protected in your case because yours has it and YOU decided to keep it folded. So you will have a hard time in civil court because the average joe still has some responsibility in their actions these day (if you can believe that, but every case is different). Someone else may know more that deals with it but I just think the old man probably heard something on the local news one night about roll over bars and thought they were talking about mowers. Who knows.

Federal Osha Regs DO REQUIRE ROPS on 25hp+ machines. I ran across this reg. over 15 years ago on fed. contracts. Yes, they do inspect them when you are working this type of job. The fines are not worth it. The liability for employer's is high when you fail to use all safety equipment.

ToroLandscaper
07-04-2006, 05:37 PM
Federal Osha Regs DO REQUIRE ROPS on 25hp+ machines. I ran across this reg. over 15 years ago on fed. contracts. Yes, they do inspect them when you are working this type of job. The fines are not worth it. The liability for employer's is high when you fail to use all safety equipment.


when i got my Z i took them off after about 3 days..I HATE ROPS..all they do is get in the way..and im not disputing you but how does osha require ROPS when they dont even come on some mowers like hustler etc?

steve45
07-04-2006, 06:21 PM
There was a post here a couple of weeks ago about a guy that flipped a mower when he hung the ROPS on a low branch.

I believe in using safety equipment, when it actually makes an operation safer!

lzrj
07-04-2006, 07:13 PM
If OSHA does require ROPS on 25 HP and higher then why are several manufacturers still not putting them on. I know of several that don't have ROPES for their larger machines (ie..Cub Cadet) with large engines. I don't think the gov't would let them sell the mowers if that was the case. I wasn't looking at the business side of it and the workers comp issue but a lot of the posts have a good point about that. The way I see it, if you are a homeowner do whatever you want and its not an issue. If you are a business owner and the machine comes with it use it (and make your employees use it) to protect yourself from law suits. Hey, not even seat belts saves everybody's lives but it does decrease fatalities,

mowtech
07-04-2006, 09:21 PM
If OSHA does require ROPS on 25 HP and higher then why are several manufacturers still not putting them on. I know of several that don't have ROPES for their larger machines (ie..Cub Cadet) with large engines. I don't think the gov't would let them sell the mowers if that was the case.

OSHA regulations are aimed at employers and the workplace. The regulations do not require the manufacturers to provide compliant equipment rather it is the employer's obligation to assure that equipment used by their employees meet the regulations. So do not use the fact that some manufacturers provide ROPS while some do not as an indication of whether or not OSHA requires them.

Having said that, I believe the 25 hp ROPS requirement mentioned was written for agricultural tractors. Whether or not a Z mower falls into that category probably has not been fully established. At least not that I am aware of.

mowtech
07-04-2006, 09:30 PM
There was a post here a couple of weeks ago about a guy that flipped a mower when he hung the ROPS on a low branch.

I believe in using safety equipment, when it actually makes an operation safer!


Rest assured that although ROPS can admittedly create a hazard risk due to running into branches, it is proved fact that ROPS can and does save lives. The benefit from this life saving protection far outweighs the tree branch hazard.

TLS
07-04-2006, 10:21 PM
We're all entitled to our opinions.

Believe what you want to believe.

AAELI
07-05-2006, 09:00 AM
OSHA regulations are aimed at employers and the workplace. The regulations do not require the manufacturers to provide compliant equipment rather it is the employer's obligation to assure that equipment used by their employees meet the regulations. So do not use the fact that some manufacturers provide ROPS while some do not as an indication of whether or not OSHA requires them.

Having said that, I believe the 25 hp ROPS requirement mentioned was written for agricultural tractors. Whether or not a Z mower falls into that category probably has not been fully established. At least not that I am aware of.

You are correct regarding the ag. tractor rops requirement. I neglected to include that information. The hp rating was used by the fed. OSHA inspectors here on our jobsites on a military installation. We did use both ag. tractors and Jacobsen turfcats with ROPS. Also correct that manufacturers do not necessarily build their equipment to meet regs. That is as you mention a requirement of the owner / employer.

TLS said"We're all entitled to our opinions. Believe what you want to believe"

This is a ludicrious statement. Our opinions of regs. have no bearing on the facts or the enforcement of those same regs. You are free to be wrong and every right to be wrong. But why would you take a chance?:hammerhead:

mowtech
07-05-2006, 09:03 AM
There have been approximately 12 deaths so far this year on mowers due to tip overs. All of these deaths would have been prevented had the machines been equipped with ROPS. There have been no deaths on machines equipped with ROPS and in fact, there have been accidents where death and serious injuries were prevented due to the ROPS. This is not the matter of opinion, it is fact. Whether or not you believe that ROPS is worth the hassle for the protection it provides you is certainly a matter of opinion and your choice.

TLS
07-05-2006, 09:17 AM
I've operated mowing machinery on what manufacturers would consider "dangerous" terrain for the past 26 years. Only one of these 10 pieces of machinery came with a ROPS (which was removed promptly). Never ONCE was I ever endangering myself or others in the operation of said machinery.

My current equipment did NOT come from the factory with a ROPS.

This past Spring while demoing several brands of ZTR's with ROPS, I was severely hindered in my daily operations due to clearance problems with even the folded ROPS.

Rayholio
07-05-2006, 10:27 AM
you don't know that ROPS would have saved those peoples lives... especially if they neglected to wear the saftey belt.. which I doubt anyone uses.. and let me tell ya.. 12 deaths from roll over is nothing.. 5000+ people a MONTH are hospitalized in america for lawn mower related injuries. Not all of these are caused by stupidity, but a lot of these could be avoided with proper use of common sense, and maybe a little training / practice.

I don't know about you, but I can feel when one side of the mower is getting a little light, and I know my mower well enough to correct. I also chose a mower that I know will operate well on hills, with a relatively low center of gravity, and low pressure tires..

mowtech
07-05-2006, 11:14 AM
you don't know that ROPS would have saved those peoples lives... especially if they neglected to wear the saftey belt.. which I doubt anyone uses.. and let me tell ya.. 12 deaths from roll over is nothing.. 5000+ people a MONTH are hospitalized in america for lawn mower related injuries. Not all of these are caused by stupidity, but a lot of these could be avoided with proper use of common sense, and maybe a little training / practice.

I don't know about you, but I can feel when one side of the mower is getting a little light, and I know my mower well enough to correct. I also chose a mower that I know will operate well on hills, with a relatively low center of gravity, and low pressure tires..


I've investigated enough of these accidents and have witnessed several staged roll overs and recreations to know that ROPS do work. Even with no seat belt the odds of being trapped and crushed under the machine is greatly reduced.

How can you say that 12 deaths is nothing? I've had to talk to family members of those killed in such accidents and I can assure you that they did not feel that these deaths were nothing. Especially since they understood that the death could have been prevented if the machines had been equipped with ROPS.

Most of these accidents do not occur from the machine actually tipping over on a side hill. They tip over due to a drop off of some kind.

Yes, common sense and training are very important. If everyone used common sense and everyone had proper training to understand the limitations of their equipment, then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

mowerboy50
07-05-2006, 12:12 PM
my first z didn't have a roll bar and i asked the dealer to take it off my new mower i bought this year. he said he couldn't take it off for liablity reasons. i was going to take it off my self but didn't at first. ive had it on for 3 months now and don't mind it. i leave it folded down most of the time, but put it on up this one property thats pretty step. i figure im makin too much money to die in a stupid mower accident.

MTR
07-05-2006, 12:30 PM
Why in the world people still ride the Z on hill that your shoes can't even step securely? That is plain ignorance and laziness. Wet, steep, Uncertain, grab your wb....:hammerhead:

Rayholio
07-05-2006, 12:37 PM
Yes, common sense and training are very important. If everyone used common sense and everyone had proper training to understand the limitations of their equipment, then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

That's all I'm tryin' to say bro..

If there's a drop off, you should find another way to mow it.. We should be educating people, not legislating them 'for their own protection'

I can see a lot of similarities between this, and the motorcycle helmet debate..

If a roll bar makes you feel safer, buy it / install it /use it.. If it doesnít, or you donít care, then donít use it.. Makes no difference to me 

mowtech
07-05-2006, 01:36 PM
That's all I'm tryin' to say bro..

If there's a drop off, you should find another way to mow it.. We should be educating people, not legislating them 'for their own protection'

I can see a lot of similarities between this, and the motorcycle helmet debate..

If a roll bar makes you feel safer, buy it / install it /use it.. If it doesnít, or you donít care, then donít use it.. Makes no difference to me 


Good point. In the hopes of not being too boorish, here are the most common causes of tip over accidents with mid-mount Z mowers that everyone should be made aware:

Cutting along a hill that is too steep. Mower looses traction, control, and slides down the hill. Machine hits something at the bottom of the hill and its momentum causes it to tip over. This could be a curb, culvert, etc. Or more commonly the machine goes over a drop off of some type such as a pond, drainage ditch, retaining wall, etc. This causes the machine to tip over. Part of the danger here is that you may have mowed this hill many times without incident. Conditions can change. A twenty degree slope seems to cause the most problems as it is still shallow enough that you feel okay. This also seems to occur more often when driving diagonally down a hill or when making a turn on the hill.

Mowing up a hill that is steeper than the up hill stability of the machine. Unit tips over backwards. This varies by brand and model, but usually is somewhere around 30 degrees.

Mowing sideways on a steep slope. Rear of the mower slides down the hill causing the machine to point up the hill. If the hill is too steep relative to the machineís up hill stability, it can tip over backwards.

Driving too close to a drop off. The machine can be inadvertently driven off or backed over a drop off causing it to flip. Ground can also give way causing the same result.

Loading on trailers or into a truck. Ramps are often too steep. They can be made even steeper if you are loading on a hill. If the ramps are too steep the machine can easily flip over backwards. Individual loader type ramps should be avoided as there is nothing between the tires to catch the skids or bogey wheels. Use only full width ramps. Best to back up the ramps.


When the machine tips over on top of you will be trapped under the machine. These machines are very heavy and they will crush you and will prevent you from breathing. This often is the cause of death, that is if serious blunt force injuries to your head and other parts of your body had not already done the job.

Please be safe. Know you machines limitations. Do not push them where they should not go. Use the right machine for the job at hand.

TLS
07-05-2006, 02:12 PM
Remember as a kid how private and public pools had diving boards (high and low) and slides and now they don't!?

Need I say more?