First season in business with a lot of questions

[Timber492]

Hello everyone,
First of all; this is my first season in business and I'm going solo till I can get a better idea of what my overhead cost and bidding fee's should all be.

to get to my question rather quickly; I'm running a 2005 20 horse white with a 42' mulching deck! I know, what am I thinking, but it's all I have and all I can afford right now. But the main problem that I have is that I just landed (call it beginners luck) the opportunity to get my first account which would be a commercial apartment complex with approx. 240,778 sq ft to mow, edge and blow.

I have been crunching some of the numbers that I have been seeing everyone else talking about here. It seems like the .005 for this lot would be a lot of $$$$! But then again, I might not be realizing what this is really going to entail or involve to get done!

Also, this account as far as I have figured out would take me solo to cut a whopping 16 hrs to just cut! Is this about right?

I have been told that the crew that comes there now is a size of 5 and it takes them 5 hrs! But then I was told that they also cut 2 times a week!?? does mean that they are cutting it 2 complete times a week or are they doing some one day and the rest the next day?

I know some of you are there are going to say that I really don't have any idea.....which I would have to agree! But in my own defense; I have a passion for what I do, and I know I have the drive and determination to get this business off to a good start! I'm just looking for some mentors or sounding blocks to work off of!

Thanks everyone for baring with me!

Timber

[2menandamower]

Hey man welcome to the world of lawn care and the new adventure ( it will for sure be that). First off if you get this contract at .05 per sf then you will for sure be in the money. Will that be the price to just mow, trim, edge, and blow??? Or will it also include mulch chems, shrub care etc??? I could do a property that size in about 5 hours by myself. Right now I have a 5 acre property that I do with one helper and we knock it out in about 4 hours. You can do it if you have the right equipment. Last year when I first landed this contract I used a Craftsman 42" mower. It took me about 10 hours to do. Then I got a 48" walkbehind in october '05 and time went to about 7.5 hours then this spring I got a 50" Dixon Z and the mow time is now about 4 hours. I know you said that is all you have and that is all you can afford but if you get this contract you could then afford the right equipment to do the job and then you cna keep the contract by keeping the lawn looking great. Good luck and if you want you can private message me or get me your phone number and I will help you out all that I can.

[wski4fun]

That's only 15K sq. feet an hr. Should be less then 8hrs unless there are places to push mow or a lot of small difficult places to mow. Without seeing the property, I say somewhere around $850. Maybe more depending how difficult and how much edging.

[Timber492]

Hey man welcome to the world of lawn care and the new adventure ( it will for sure be that). First off if you get this contract at .05 per sf then you will for sure be in the money. Will that be the price to just mow, trim, edge, and blow??? Or will it also include mulch chems, shrub care etc??? I could do a property that size in about 5 hours by myself. Right now I have a 5 acre property that I do with one helper and we knock it out in about 4 hours. You can do it if you have the right equipment. Last year when I first landed this contract I used a Craftsman 42" mower. It took me about 10 hours to do. Then I got a 48" walkbehind in october '05 and time went to about 7.5 hours then this spring I got a 50" Dixon Z and the mow time is now about 4 hours. I know you said that is all you have and that is all you can afford but if you get this contract you could then afford the right equipment to do the job and then you cna keep the contract by keeping the lawn looking great. Good luck and if you want you can private message me or get me your phone number and I will help you out all that I can.


Thanks for writing and letting me know about all of the info. Actually the price that I seen someone else quote was .005 which looked like a 1/2 a cent a sq ft. and the total for the prop. to cut would be 1,203.89 per week to cut, trim and blow! iS THAT A LOT? Only because I'm new to this, that seems like a lot of $$$! Like i said, i'm new at this, and with all of the jobs that I've done over my years and never made that kind of money! you know?

Also, thanks for the email! I really appreiciate it! I need all the help that I can get right now! Hopefully someday I can be the one helping someone else out to get started!

[Timber492]

That's only 15K sq. feet an hr. Should be less then 8hrs unless there are places to push mow or a lot of small difficult places to mow. Without seeing the property, I say somewhere around $850. Maybe more depending how difficult and how much edging.


Well, I did some figuaring and came up with the approx. estemate of my mower in my own yard only able to effectivly cut at the 1 mile an hour.

My total cutting area for my own yard is 21k sq ft, and that takes me 1.5 hrs. But then that again, I have to deal with all of the kids crap that's left in the yard and dodge the potholes that the kid digs :angry:. So maybe thats why I can't average more per hr.

[Timber492]

Oh I almost forgot!

The lawn at this complex looks like straw! Verry brown and coarse. I don't know what the hight of the lawn is right now, but I have to figure out what to do to get it looking better and being more thick. There are huge gaps between where they seeded when the built the complex, and to top it all off, the property has almost a clay base whitout any good topsoil. Is this something that can be repaired yet this season be letting it grow a little higher to get established? Or is this the wrong way to think?

[topsites]

Thanks for writing and letting me know about all of the info. Actually the price that I seen someone else quote was .005 which looked like a 1/2 a cent a sq ft. and the total for the prop. to cut would be 1,203.89 per week to cut, trim and blow! iS THAT A LOT? Only because I'm new to this, that seems like a lot of $$$! Like i said, i'm new at this, and with all of the jobs that I've done over my years and never made that kind of money! you know?

The price per square foot goes DOWN as the props increase in size, so yeah, 1200 is too high, $200 would be more like it at $40 / acre that's a price that can still be underbid. Someone out there will do it for 175 thou only a fool would do it for 125, the 200 price is solid and gives you some margin of error but...

Is this all in one piece, or most of it anyway? What I mean is, is it all one big lot or is it some place divided up into 50 or so POS islands and what not, meaning this would certainly have an effect on price, but I don't know what the place looks like.

As for me, I can't deal with cents / square foot, I do my calculations by 1/4 acres and sometimes by the 1/8 acre and later by the full acre.

[PMLAWN]

You will not like this answer but call back and say
"NO"
This is way to big of a property to learn on- It does not sound like you have the equipment or the manpower to do this. When bidding properties this size you need to already know all about YOUR business and the cost to run it. And also how long things take to do. Price per sq foot has very little to do with it. How easy is it to cut- trim and edge- obstacles- hills - trees - one long cut or lots of turns. You need to know how much it costs you to do business and than how long to produce the work.
Not trying to rain on the parade but I believe you are over you head on this-- Grow slow - learn the trade- these jobs will always be there for you to get.
Don't jump in to fast and ruin a reputation --- And DO NOT LOSE MONEY!!!!

[PMLAWN]

Well, I did some figuaring and came up with the approx. estemate of my mower in my own yard only able to effectivly cut at the 1 mile an hour.

My total cutting area for my own yard is 21k sq ft, and that takes me 1.5 hrs. But then that again, I have to deal with all of the kids crap that's left in the yard and dodge the potholes that the kid digs :angry:. So maybe thats why I can't average more per hr.
Your competition has a Z that cuts well at 10mph. and cut a 60" path at that speed. I reiterate my above post

[lawnmaniac883]

Thanks for writing and letting me know about all of the info. Actually the price that I seen someone else quote was .005 which looked like a 1/2 a cent a sq ft. and the total for the prop. to cut would be 1,203.89 per week to cut, trim and blow! iS THAT A LOT? Only because I'm new to this, that seems like a lot of $$$! Like i said, i'm new at this, and with all of the jobs that I've done over my years and never made that kind of money! you know?

Also, thanks for the email! I really appreiciate it! I need all the help that I can get right now! Hopefully someday I can be the one helping someone else out to get started!


Is that alot? NO, not after your resi mower breaks down 5 times and you have to replace your resi trimmers and lets not even discuss the gas and maintenance that you will be shelling money out just for your equipment. It being an apartment complex they might want a full maintenance package. This means not only do you mow but you also trim their shrubs round up and mulch the flower beds as needed and apply fert you can sub out the fert.

Dont go after this one it is not the kind of place you want to learn on. You need training wheels, this is a deep river. Go find some small residential places to mow until you know what you are doing. Once you get burned a few times go back to the apartment place and submit a bid.

[Freddy_Kruger]

Take the lawn for what Topsite said and if you have to finance a good wb. or spend 10 hours... Its just time and you don't have anything else to do.

Jump and the parachut will appear. Don't be timid.

btw it takes me about 45 to cut my biggest lawn 13500 sq ft with a 21" mower You should be able to do much much faster with your 42". I would jump at this opportuinity.

[just4me]

I have a job doing bid on and just starting out but been doing this work 10 = yrs. The job is a 6000 sq. ft. weekly mow +weed, edge with trimmer, seasonal pruning & edging probably 2x spring-fall clean ups, its about a 65 mile rd. trip I'm trying to do an hrly budget and get price that way but would like an opinion from others are the pricing. I live in New Hampshire I believe the going rates for lawns around here are about 55-65/hr avg. Would any one out there be able to help PLEASSSSE
Thank you for anyones efforts as this is kinda nerve racking as I hear others on here say you don't want to over bid but not to under bid either

[RonB]

It being an apartment complex they might want a full maintenance package. This means not only do you mow but you also trim their shrubs round up and mulch the flower beds as needed and apply fert you can sub out the fert.

I agree with this and keep in mind they will likely want you to be finishing up before the majority of people start getting in from work. Meaning the parking lots, walkways, etc. will have to be blown before then. If your cutting time close you might have to stop what your doing and get to that then go back and pick up where you were - time consuming. Are you going to be expected to pick up the trash, cigarette butts before you can start cutting are just cut'em up and make a bigger mess?

You don't want to have people around where you're working, for sure. What if it starts raining half way though ..

[Timber492]

The price per square foot goes DOWN as the props increase in size, so yeah, 1200 is too high, $200 would be more like it at $40 / acre that's a price that can still be underbid. Someone out there will do it for 175 thou only a fool would do it for 125, the 200 price is solid and gives you some margin of error but...

Is this all in one piece, or most of it anyway? What I mean is, is it all one big lot or is it some place divided up into 50 or so POS islands and what not, meaning this would certainly have an effect on price, but I don't know what the place looks like.

As for me, I can't deal with cents / square foot, I do my calculations by 1/4 acres and sometimes by the 1/8 acre and later by the full acre.


Ok, thanks for the feedback. With all do respect, what you say is no where near what everyone else is saying! $200.00 to cut a Prop of 5.5 acres? I might be new at this, but I can do the math, and $200 a week to cut this prop would basicly cover my fuel in the mower and nothing else. Am I out of line on this or what? Also, how could I even attempt to hire some to help with the prop with only charging that kind of money! I would be out of business just as fast as I got into it!

[Up North]

Ok, thanks for the feedback. With all do respect, what you say is no where near what everyone else is saying! $200.00 to cut a Prop of 5.5 acres? I might be new at this, but I can do the math, and $200 a week to cut this prop would basicly cover my fuel in the mower and nothing else. Am I out of line on this or what? Also, how could I even attempt to hire some to help with the prop with only charging that kind of money! I would be out of business just as fast as I got into it!

No way I'd do it for $200, somewhat hard to say what I'd charge without seeing the prop but with what you have explained so far I think $200 would be too low. Personally I price my work based on how long I think it'll take me, and for the most part I'm usually within 10 minutes of my guesstimate. Currently I aim at $1 a minute, although with fuel costs any new customers may get bumped up a bit. My first BIG job was a townhome & apartment complex that I figured would take me 4 hours solo. Shot them a price of $175, (that was 3 years ago when I was at about $45 or so an hour) and even though I wasn't the low bidder I got the job based on me being referred to them. The first few times I did it it took me just shy of 3 hours so I came out pretty good on this prop. I have since bumped them up $5 each year and plus cut my time down to 2 hours flat to mow, trim, & blow the prop, come out really good on it now. BTW, the prop is about 4 acres total.

I agree with what someone said here, this prop could be too big for you. BUT...you need to cut your teeth somewhere and this could be a good learning experience. Just don't sell yourself short, on your pricing maybe factor in purchasing a used ZTR or WB, or at least consider renting one for this prop. Mowing at 3mph with a 42" cut is going to take a long time, and in this business time is money...along with good quality work and attention to detail.

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions here, you have some of the best people in the business on this site and they are willing to share good advice and help out.

Buck

[Timber492]

No way I'd do it for $200, somewhat hard to say what I'd charge without seeing the prop but with what you have explained so far I think $200 would be too low. Personally I price my work based on how long I think it'll take me, and for the most part I'm usually within 10 minutes of my guesstimate. Currently I aim at $1 a minute, although with fuel costs any new customers may get bumped up a bit. My first BIG job was a townhome & apartment complex that I figured would take me 4 hours solo. Shot them a price of $175, (that was 3 years ago when I was at about $45 or so an hour) and even though I wasn't the low bidder I got the job based on me being referred to them. The first few times I did it it took me just shy of 3 hours so I came out pretty good on this prop. I have since bumped them up $5 each year and plus cut my time down to 2 hours flat to mow, trim, & blow the prop, come out really good on it now. BTW, the prop is about 4 acres total.

I agree with what someone said here, this prop could be too big for you. BUT...you need to cut your teeth somewhere and this could be a good learning experience. Just don't sell yourself short, on your pricing maybe factor in purchasing a used ZTR or WB, or at least consider renting one for this prop. Mowing at 3mph with a 42" cut is going to take a long time, and in this business time is money...along with good quality work and attention to detail.

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions here, you have some of the best people in the business on this site and they are willing to share good advice and help out.

Buck


Buck,
Thanks for the great advice, I really appreicate it! The idea that I'm getting from you is to figure on the $1.00/min. of cut time, which for me with my machine would be about 10 to 12 hrs. BUT.....then just reduce the price to a resonable amount of say $800. and go from there as I can always increase it when I've had the contract renewed! Right? You know, you really brought up a good point. Renting a ZTR for the day to get the job done wouldn't be a bad idea. it would take the stess off of my machine and there wouldn't be any overhead except fuel and rental fee! Right? I could really manage to get that set up!
Thanks again for all of the great help!
Oh I almost forgot, what is the average weight for a decent ZTR? I have a trailer that I think is only rated for 1,100 lbs? Thanks again!

Timber

[JCP Crafts]

The best advice you are being given is by the one that knows the most about these type of properties(large commercial) and though it sucks you are gonna learn the hard way.PMLAWN learned the hard way (over many years)and is trying to help but everyone sees "money falling from the sky",If the property is in terrible shape as you descibed it means the property managers have not been paying to have it well kept.(They are cheap.)
I may be wrong but I feel you are being taken advantage of cause they are aware of the fact that you are not fully set up to handle this,yet they wave the "bone" in front of your face.When all is said and done they are out nothing.
I wish you much luck, you will need to come out on top of this one the winner.

[Timber492]

JCP, thank you for the post!

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there are issues that I'm trying not to face right now (as in the size of the prop and if it's too big for me)

Please don't think it's out of stupidity or as you put it "waving a bone in front of me! I realize that this is going to be a long and hard venture for me. But then anything in life that is worth keeping does not come easy; nor does someone take something serious if it comes too easy or has been handed to them.

I'm looking for the hard projects that I can learn from, and of course, I turn to all of you here and other places to get the input that you all offer. So that way I may make a educated guess on what my next move should be. But there is a way that I think and act; that I see that so many others have a hard time swallowing.

When I am faced with a dilemma, I first think " How can I do it or What can I do to get it done" where so many others would normally say "I can't get it done, it's too hard, or it's not worth it". So many people in this world have the tendency to say "I wish I could be rich" and when their wish don't come true, they give up. I on the other hand will say and believe " I will be rich" and make sure it happens!

So, with that all said, I want everyone here to know that It's not that I don't appreciate the feedback that I get from everyone, because I absolutely do. It's just that I have a different way of thinking than most, which doesn't allow me to just sit back and believe that it didn't work for someone else so it isn't going to work for me. I'll make it work for me! After all, thats why we're in business for ourselves isn't it, so we can make it work for ourselves; and not let someone else determine our fate!?

Thanks everyone!!!

Timber

[martinfan06]

Ok, thanks for the feedback. With all do respect, what you say is no where near what everyone else is saying! $200.00 to cut a Prop of 5.5 acres? I might be new at this, but I can do the math, and $200 a week to cut this prop would basicly cover my fuel in the mower and nothing else. Am I out of line on this or what? Also, how could I even attempt to hire some to help with the prop with only charging that kind of money! I would be out of business just as fast as I got into it!
If your spending 200$ to cut 5.5 acres you need to get your mower checked out you have a major leak. Also we cant see the prop. topsites is just giving you the average cost for an acer to be mowed, you have to factor in the variables. Be easy on veterans there here to help. good luck on the bid.

[mblackburn]

the dollar a minute will be based on your equipment. IF a guy with a ztr 50 inch estimates time worth 1 dollar per minute a 21 inch push mower cant bill at the same rate because it is not as productive...something to keep in mind

I worked in biz when I was right out of high school and made all the mistakes to be made (almost) Im new in bus now --second year but what i have learned that will help you

1. you cant always compete on price alone...if you the cheapest sob in town next year youll be the one the customer talks about when he says he had a guy that did it for 25 but he cant get ahold of him because his tn is disconnected

2. Unless you have the right equipment dont take the job (i took a 5 acre place my first year with subpar equipment and killed myself to do what would be easy work if i had the right stuff and I regret it later plus lost the customer and they probably told a friend or two that I took a job i wasnt geared up for...its better to walk with your reputation than try to do it anyway and leave them unhappy now if your a full time lawn guy and have all the time in the world go for it, but bid high enough to upgrade your stuff and make sure you know the full scope of what the job is asking for

[Timber492]

the dollar a minute will be based on your equipment. IF a guy with a ztr 50 inch estimates time worth 1 dollar per minute a 21 inch push mower cant bill at the same rate because it is not as productive...something to keep in mind

I worked in biz when I was right out of high school and made all the mistakes to be made (almost) Im new in bus now --second year but what i have learned that will help you

1. you cant always compete on price alone...if you the cheapest sob in town next year youll be the one the customer talks about when he says he had a guy that did it for 25 but he cant get ahold of him because his tn is disconnected

2. Unless you have the right equipment dont take the job (i took a 5 acre place my first year with subpar equipment and killed myself to do what would be easy work if i had the right stuff and I regret it later plus lost the customer and they probably told a friend or two that I took a job i wasnt geared up for...its better to walk with your reputation than try to do it anyway and leave them unhappy now if your a full time lawn guy and have all the time in the world go for it, but bid high enough to upgrade your stuff and make sure you know the full scope of what the job is asking for


Mblackburn,

Thanks for the helpful info..I do appreciate the insite of another newcomer to the business.

The way that I look at it. I will make mistakes along the way, that is if I take a risk and try something. If I don't take any risks at all, I'm never going to amount to anything; simply because I've been to content playing it safe.

I do agree on the part on reputation completly. I can only hope that the hard work that I'm intending on investing into the business will pay off with the years to come. But, on the other hand, if you all could take a step back and try to visullize this theory. If you had the opportunity to jump on a commercial site that you know is going to be hard work for the equipment that you had. And then come to make mistakes, or come to find out that you made a mistake and the job was more demanding than anticipated. Wouldn't you want to make them kind of mistakes and learn from them right away before you have a reputation to ruin? I know it's an abstract way of thinking, but what can I say. To me, it seems harder to ruin something that you don't even have. Yes, for future projects it might be harder to obtain, but right now, no one even knows me except for my business cards! I'f I screw something up on this account, I'll have to move on and cut my loss. But then again, maybe this is right what I need. To have something that is going to be hard to accomplish, and really make me work for the money. I believe I will come to appreciate the easier jobs that come along later.

I might be way off, but at least I'm laying it all out there for you all to disect. All of the info that I've been getting back, good or bad, has deffinetly made me think wisely about what I'm getting into!

Thanks everyone!

Timber

[mblackburn]

Im actually new going back into business I went corporate for a while. I was in business for a while , but just was naive and lowballed , I could have made a lot more money with less effort if I had standards and wouldnt have always breaking equipment. This second round I am doing it the right way as I have learned from the first failure.

I disagree however, you cant unruin the reputation, but if you keep a high standard and good rep it will build..look at it realistically if you can handle the task take it, if your going to leave them disatisfied pass for now..just my thoughts

[Timber492]

Im actually new going back into business I went corporate for a while. I was in business for a while , but just was naive and lowballed , I could have made a lot more money with less effort if I had standards and wouldnt have always breaking equipment. This second round I am doing it the right way as I have learned from the first failure.

I disagree however, you cant unruin the reputation, but if you keep a high standard and good rep it will build..look at it realistically if you can handle the task take it, if your going to leave them disatisfied pass for now..just my thoughts


This I would have to agree with completely. Thanks for your thoughts!

[PMLAWN]

Mblackburn,

Thanks for the helpful info..I do appreciate the insite of another newcomer to the business.

The way that I look at it. I will make mistakes along the way, that is if I take a risk and try something. If I don't take any risks at all, I'm never going to amount to anything; simply because I've been to content playing it safe.

I do agree on the part on reputation completly. I can only hope that the hard work that I'm intending on investing into the business will pay off with the years to come. But, on the other hand, if you all could take a step back and try to visullize this theory. If you had the opportunity to jump on a commercial site that you know is going to be hard work for the equipment that you had. And then come to make mistakes, or come to find out that you made a mistake and the job was more demanding than anticipated. Wouldn't you want to make them kind of mistakes and learn from them right away before you have a reputation to ruin? I know it's an abstract way of thinking, but what can I say. To me, it seems harder to ruin something that you don't even have. Yes, for future projects it might be harder to obtain, but right now, no one even knows me except for my business cards! I'f I screw something up on this account, I'll have to move on and cut my loss. But then again, maybe this is right what I need. To have something that is going to be hard to accomplish, and really make me work for the money. I believe I will come to appreciate the easier jobs that come along later.

I might be way off, but at least I'm laying it all out there for you all to disect. All of the info that I've been getting back, good or bad, has deffinetly made me think wisely about what I'm getting into!

Thanks everyone!

TimberNot sure what you are doing-- I am answering to a business man that has created a business. When I started my business I invested lots of hours into the name - design- logo- saying - brochures- advertising- colors- trucks- trailers- legal fees- insurance- ... I'm I willing to risk that -- Heck NO...

If you are not at this state or have invested nothing- well I guess you have nothing to lose-- But than very little to gain.

OK -- GO FOR IT-- do not listen to the advice that YOU asked for.
I believe JCP Crafts said it best when he told about money falling from the sky-- I would not worry about it - don't bother bringing an umbrella to the party!

[mblackburn]

...... willing to risk that -- Heck NO...

If you are not at this state or have invested nothing- well I guess you have nothing to lose-- But than very little to gain.

OK -- GO FOR IT-- do not listen to the advice that YOU asked for.
I believe JCP Crafts said it best when he told about money falling from the sky-- I would not worry about it - don't bother bringing an umbrella to the party!


exactly....like i said...i was dumb enough to overcommit before and learned. I do a damn good job in a profitible manner or I will advise them to look around for someone else

[JT1304]

This may sound crazy, but what if , just what if, you get it and do a good job?? Crazy right?? What if you get it and make a little money?? The thing is you will never know until you try. Rent, buy whatever is most feasible to you, but do give it a shot. Do them a great job and keep the contract. Add in mulching and maybe make a little more money. There's way more to this biz than mow, blow and go. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide.........just keep us updated.:clapping: :clapping:

[mblackburn]

im not saying dont do it if you think you can. Im saying dont do it if you know you cant...there is a difference

[ed2hess]

I assume you are going to hire some help to get this done in less than a day correct? You can't be hanging around there with a blower going for 5 hours, if the appartment don't complain the neighbors will. And they sometimes don't like starts at 7:00 and people start returning around 3:00, And on commericial property if this is upscale won't they be wanting other things done like trees, bushes, fertilizing, irrigation repair, flowers, etc. etc. And by the way have you asked what is the problem with the present crew?

[PMLAWN]

I assume you are going to hire some help to get this done in less than a day correct? You can't be hanging around there with a blower going for 5 hours, if the appartment don't complain the neighbors will. And they sometimes don't like starts at 7:00 and people start returning around 3:00, And on commericial property if this is upscale won't they be wanting other things done like trees, bushes, fertilizing, irrigation repair, flowers, etc. etc. And by the way have you asked what is the problem with the present crew?
Add to this, the problem of what to do with the employees that you hire to do this property for the other 4 days of the week. It is hard to hire "GOOD" help for just one day a week

[PMLAWN]

JCP, thank you for the post!

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there are issues that I'm trying not to face right now (as in the size of the prop and if it's too big for me)

Please don't think it's out of stupidity or as you put it "waving a bone in front of me! I realize that this is going to be a long and hard venture for me. But then anything in life that is worth keeping does not come easy; nor does someone take something serious if it comes too easy or has been handed to them.

I'm looking for the hard projects that I can learn from, and of course, I turn to all of you here and other places to get the input that you all offer. So that way I may make a educated guess on what my next move should be. But there is a way that I think and act; that I see that so many others have a hard time swallowing.

When I am faced with a dilemma, I first think " How can I do it or What can I do to get it done" where so many others would normally say "I can't get it done, it's too hard, or it's not worth it". So many people in this world have the tendency to say "I wish I could be rich" and when their wish don't come true, they give up. I on the other hand will say and believe " I will be rich" and make sure it happens!

So, with that all said, I want everyone here to know that It's not that I don't appreciate the feedback that I get from everyone, because I absolutely do. It's just that I have a different way of thinking than most, which doesn't allow me to just sit back and believe that it didn't work for someone else so it isn't going to work for me. I'll make it work for me! After all, thats why we're in business for ourselves isn't it, so we can make it work for ourselves; and not let someone else determine our fate!?

Thanks everyone!!!

Timber

Timber--Reread your post and think about what YOU, YOURSELF are saying

"Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there are issues that I'm trying not to face right now "

"But there is a way that I think and act; that I see that so many others have a hard time swallowing"

"So many people in this world have the tendency to say "I wish I could be rich" and when their wish don't come true, they give up. I on the other hand will say and believe " I will be rich" and make sure it happens!"

Will you get rich by losing money doing jobs??

"So, with that all said, I want everyone here to know that It's not that I don't appreciate the feedback that I get from everyone, because I absolutely do. It's just that I have a different way of thinking than most, "

"I'll make it work for me! After all, thats why we're in business for ourselves isn't it, so we can make it work for ourselves; and not let someone else determine our fate"

To answer that last quote, the only reason I am in business is to make money, Have you sat down and put a plan on paper to do just that?

"I know some of you are there are going to say that I really don't have any idea.....which I would have to agree! But in my own defense; I have a passion for what I do, and I know I have the drive and determination to get this business off to a good start! I'm just looking for some mentors or sounding blocks to work off of! "

Passion and determination will never overcome a bad business plan (or lack of one). The thing you need the most at this point in your career is education of the business-- and yet I hear you saying that that is something you want to reject, that your "drive" will overcome your mistakes.

My only other advice is this-- "DRIVE- DETERMINATION- PASSION-" will NOT put bacon on the table or gas in the tank.:)

[Timber492]

Not sure what you are doing-- I am answering to a business man that has created a business. When I started my business I invested lots of hours into the name - design- logo- saying - brochures- advertising- colors- trucks- trailers- legal fees- insurance- ... I'm I willing to risk that -- Heck NO...

If you are not at this state or have invested nothing- well I guess you have nothing to lose-- But than very little to gain.

OK -- GO FOR IT-- do not listen to the advice that YOU asked for.
I believe JCP Crafts said it best when he told about money falling from the sky-- I would not worry about it - don't bother bringing an umbrella to the party!

PMLawn,
You are correct about the business details. I have a very well business plan in place as we speak, a business plan that is tailored to my needs and accessibility's. A business plan that does not involve putting myself in the hole right from the start by getting a loan to buy all of the items that you commented on. Granted, because I'm starting out small will also mean that is what I'm going to be for now "Small". But that is fine for me right now; and it's exactly how I wanted it to be, at least for the rest of the season.

Yes, I could borrow from the equity in our home, use all of our vehicles as collateral, Sell off all the stock that I have; all of them, to get the capital to buy all the equipment that I would love to have so I wouldn't have to work so hard. BUT....What would starting out in the hole do for the longevity of the company? MAYBE could...MAYBE could not! "MAYBE" is not part of any educated formula! Although I have tried to do it, I could not come up with a formula that would guaranty success just because I had more equipment and the few accounts that I'm attempting to acquire. The debt to profit ratio was too far off at this stage of the game.

As for other details; I've started putting the basics together, Business Cards, Brochures, licenses, and Insurance so far. I have other ideas in the works, but right now I'm at the beginning stages of the creation of the company. Which yes, I know many will say "now is when you need to get it all done and figured out". But right now I am worrying about the necessities to get going, not the extra materials to make the job easier. That will come later when the I myself and the company is more secure; until then, I'll have just have to do extra work.

Furthermore, There is one question that I have that has been bothering me!
Several of you had commented about what you referred to "Money Falling From the Sky". What is that suppose to mean? Where did that comment ever generate from? Did I inadvertently provoke that?

What ever the case, I guess I'm confused to the meaning! I regress, thinking back to the comment from one of the members here telling me that I should be looking at $200 to do a 241k size lawn. I responded in disbelief, as others did also. It then seems since that post, I have been tagged as someone that is money-hungry and wanting to a lot to a little!

WELL, which is it! Am I suppose to be a SCRUB and low-ball it to steal it away from others just because i'm new? As every can see everywhere on this site and other places, that the wannabe LCO's that underbid with ridiculous prices ($15-$20) to do a lawn that anyone that is serious about the business would charge anywhere from $30-$45 to do! Or am I suppose to support our industry and keep a "standard of price" as everyone around to make it fair, and get ridiculed for it because I am NEW and don't have the overhead that others have?

With all do respect! And yes, that goes out to all of you out here that have been here to help me and others alike. I'm starting to think that this industry is to the point that it's become so cut-throat that others would rather see one NOT succeed as it would be a shame to have more competition, even if their from the other side of the country!

Just my thoughts!

Timber

[Timber492]

I assume you are going to hire some help to get this done in less than a day correct? You can't be hanging around there with a blower going for 5 hours, if the appartment don't complain the neighbors will. And they sometimes don't like starts at 7:00 and people start returning around 3:00, And on commericial property if this is upscale won't they be wanting other things done like trees, bushes, fertilizing, irrigation repair, flowers, etc. etc. And by the way have you asked what is the problem with the present crew?


Ed,
I am inquiring about hiring someone to help with this prop. That is what the main problem I'm having; to make sure that I bid the job accordingly and all of my cost's are covered, I make money, and the company makes a profit.

You do bring up a good point about the time frame. I had figured out at the speed that I can average, I would be looking at 12 hr for just the mow. But that is only through doing the #'s, not actually doing the prop. So that could actually be less, or it could be more.

About the other work to perform: Yes, they want some basic landscaping done with some tree's planted, and also they have a really severe problem with the lawn itself. It's damn near dead, which brings me to your last question. The crew that is on it now is doing a terrible job. They don't clean up after themselves, they are using dull blades and hacking the entire prop, and also the are cutting it so short that the only thing that is left is the stalk! Walking the prop right now with bare feet would be suicide as looks like straw!

Thanks for replying Ed.
I'll have to think some more about the time-frame to get it done!

[Timber492]

Add to this, the problem of what to do with the employees that you hire to do this property for the other 4 days of the week. It is hard to hire "GOOD" help for just one day a week


Very good point PM, I have some things in the works right now that I might have a UM...Partner....help me right now with it to help me get the prop done till I can get the comp. up and running smoother.

Good question though!

[Timber492]

Timber--Reread your post and think about what YOU, YOURSELF are saying

"Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there are issues that I'm trying not to face right now "

"But there is a way that I think and act; that I see that so many others have a hard time swallowing"

"So many people in this world have the tendency to say "I wish I could be rich" and when their wish don't come true, they give up. I on the other hand will say and believe " I will be rich" and make sure it happens!"

Will you get rich by losing money doing jobs??

"So, with that all said, I want everyone here to know that It's not that I don't appreciate the feedback that I get from everyone, because I absolutely do. It's just that I have a different way of thinking than most, "

"I'll make it work for me! After all, thats why we're in business for ourselves isn't it, so we can make it work for ourselves; and not let someone else determine our fate"

To answer that last quote, the only reason I am in business is to make money, Have you sat down and put a plan on paper to do just that?

"I know some of you are there are going to say that I really don't have any idea.....which I would have to agree! But in my own defense; I have a passion for what I do, and I know I have the drive and determination to get this business off to a good start! I'm just looking for some mentors or sounding blocks to work off of! "

Passion and determination will never overcome a bad business plan (or lack of one). The thing you need the most at this point in your career is education of the business-- and yet I hear you saying that that is something you want to reject, that your "drive" will overcome your mistakes.

My only other advice is this-- "DRIVE- DETERMINATION- PASSION-" will NOT put bacon on the table or gas in the tank.:)

PM.

First to explain about: I do understand that there are issues that I'm trying not to face right now. I did not intend that comment to be taken as I didn't want to learn the business, but more over to the extent that I don't want to have to be faced with putting the business in the hole right away by buying expensive unnecessary equipment.

You said: Will you get rich by losing money doing jobs??
Who ever said I would loose money? I didn't! If I remember correctly from my original post, I was inquiring about how to accurately bid a job so I didn't loose money!

As for the comment about a business plan, I already answered that in the previous post.

As for the last part you said: Passion and determination will never overcome a bad business plan (or lack of one). The thing you need the most at this point in your career is education of the business-- and yet I hear you saying that that is something you want to reject, that your "drive" will overcome your mistakes.

As for the comment about having a business plan, I would completely agree! As it IS possible to succeed without a business plan, it is rare if one ever reaches it's highest potential. Furthermore, I never said that I was rejecting to learn the business. I'm here asking questions to those that have been in the business, am I not? Like I said earlier, the way that I think is not the same way that others think. So no, I don't expect you to completely understand.

Also, I never said that my DRIVE or DETERMINATION would make me rich! PM, You can't paraphrase something that is right in front of us. I said: I have the drive and determination to get this business off to a good start that is it. Nothing in there about becoming rich...nor running the business off of determination or drive!


Timber

[JCP Crafts]

Timber,when I wrote about "money falling from the sky"I was not referring to you,thinking in that manner. I was referring to the prior 17 posts that most were filled with the "just go for it attitude" at that point when I commented PMLAWN was the one with ,IMO ,the most success,knowledge,and experience in these types of bids and services,it is his specialty.
Now,no one is trying to knock you for having the determination to try this.Understand that most on this site wants more from life than to work for the "man' and to have just a "paycheck".
The folks that make up this site are mostly nonconformist in that they have broke from the pack of followers and decided to make a go of it for themselves.Some will succeed and some will fail.It's just the law of averages at work.Some will do everything"right" and not make it.Some will do everything "wrong' but make it anyway.Again just law of averages.
Most of us here,but not all,are "Americans living the American dream",it is one thing that is great about being an American.To have the freedom and luxury to take risks in life and attempt to build ourselves a lil business of our own.Our government and economics of this nation permits us to do so.I am thankful for this as many are here.
Now what does all this have to do with your post? It's a forum that discusses things about the lawn industry .You came in seeking advice....It's been given....Some good and some bad,but that is all opinion as well.
This country is gonna continue to grow everyday,and everyday,a new lawn company will start and another will fail or fold.It is up to you as the boss of your destiny to decide what is the best advice that you have been given and who's opinion you may or may not care to follow. No one is gonna build the company for you,but you.
We all wish you the best,cause we all like to hear about success stories.The people here are on your side ....they are the individual fighters against "corporate".lol...though t most would not mind being mentioned on the Forbes 500 list.Most would be pleased though with a large enough paying on time client/customer base to support the cost of their operation,the health and welfare of their families and workers,some days off with some money to enjoy their other passions and hobbies,and if it's not to much to ask for.....some savings for a rainy day and retirement.
So don't get frustrated with the answers....these guys/gals want you to succeed ...
Respectfully,Jim*newusflag*

[Team-Green L&L]

I have noticed that this site consists of 30% people with the desire to improve the industry and 70% of jackasses that want to degrade everyone else. Take the advise on this understanding.

First, don't tackle a project without a blueprint. IOW, have a business plan and marketing plan in tact before you begin your endeavor. Seperate yourself from the competition around you. This is possible only, after, researching your local competitors and listing their strengths and weaknesses. Now built off your knowledge offering services and owning equipment to perform work different or better than your average competitor. Now beat the pavement and introduce your company. Never miss an opportunity. You're getting gas, who does the BP's services? Your out eating, who does the Outback your at's lawn, ect. Within a year or two you will find yourself pretty busy. The important thing is to be selective with your properties. If you want any further help. I would be glad to share some written material or audio and video on marketing strategies. PM me if needed.

[Timber492]

JCP and TEAM GREEN.

Thank you so much for the words that you posted. It truly means a lot to me that you offer your support and willingness to help.

JCP, you hit it right on the head when you mentioned about most of us being the one's that don't want to conform to corporate standards. I fit into that category perfectly, as just recently I had resigned from a corporate position with a large transportation company.

Team Green, I will most definitely be in touch with you in the near future.

Thanks again!

Timber

TimberWieck Lawn Designs: ........ We don't just create great looking lawns, we create pride!:usflag:

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