PDA

View Full Version : ASV RC-50 Digging Question


cddva
07-20-2006, 03:38 PM
I was asked if I would consider digging a hole for burial of a barn teardown. He said he would tear it down and burn it first and then bury whats left. I haven't looked at the job/site yet, but was told the hole would be dug in pasture and the barn is not that big. He did mention it has a tin roof that he wants buried as part of the deal. He thought it might take about a 4 foot deep hole not really sure of the other dimensions at this point. I haven't done any real digging with the RC-50 so my question is does this sound like a job thats within the capabilities of the machine? I have a 4n1 bucket with a toothbar and also a straight arm backhoe attachment w/ 12" bucket from SS Solutions (I know you guys don't think much of that type of "backhoe"). Your advice/insight would be appreciated. I need to look at the job but it would be good to have your input in advance. A rough estimate of how long it may take to dig a 6' wide x 20' long (with slope assuming I'm driving the machine in w/ the 4n1) x 4' deep hole in clay soil (assuming no buried "show stoppers") would also be appreciated.

TriCountyLawn
07-20-2006, 04:10 PM
Well depending on how big the hole is it might be easier to make a hole big enough to run the machine down into rather then messing with a excavator attachment. The machine can do it but a large mini excavator with a thumb working along side would make quick work of the job.

Gilla Gorilla
07-20-2006, 04:43 PM
I would wait for Dirtdigger to respond to this thread. If i'm not mistaken he also has a RC50 or 60 and should be able to let you know some more info.

AWJ Services
07-20-2006, 06:20 PM
If the ground is not concrete hard it will not be a problem.
It will however take time.
I would guess 4 to 6 hours too dig it.
Be carful however when it comes time too push the burnt debris into the hole.
A cut track will sure hurt the profit margin.

Squizzy246B
07-20-2006, 07:17 PM
I have dug holes of 6' and more to mine some clean sand. Takes about an hour in my 246. Having done some time in the RC 50 it will have no problem unless there is rock or heavy clay....in which case a mini-ex will have problems anyway. I'd go for it on the rock/clay proviso...should not take more than 2 hours to dig out in the 50.

Tigerotor77W
07-20-2006, 08:16 PM
I dug an approximately 90 inch wide, 10-15 foot long, 3 feet deep hole with a 287B today in about 50 minutes. If the RC-50 is half as productive as the 287B (probably undercutting its productivity), then in about three to four hours you should be able to dig a trench of your description. (I was digging in North Carolina, so it was hard clay as well.)

Digdeep
07-21-2006, 11:08 AM
It shouldn't take you more than 2 hours depending on the soil conditions. My suggestion would be to push the burned material from the side to prevent driving over any jagged metal along with reducing the amount of debris you get into the undercarriage. You'll be extremely happy with the performance. I still can't get over how well my RC50 pushes and digs.

AWJ Services
07-21-2006, 11:30 AM
A rough estimate of how long it may take to dig a 6' wide x 20' long (with slope assuming I'm driving the machine in w/ the 4n1) x 4' deep hole in clay soil (assuming no buried "show stoppers") would also be appreciated.

Make sure the hole is big enough the first time.

cddva
07-21-2006, 11:36 AM
I appreciate all your responses. He's talking 2 or 3 weeks to be ready to do this job. After the good feedback here I'll be looking forward to putting the RC-50 to work on a digging job.:)

Bob Horrell
07-24-2006, 12:28 AM
2 hours is about right. Be sure you have a tooth bucket for the clay. I recently rented an ASV 50 for an excavation. I had to go inside of a 62 inch gate and I thought I would try the ASV. Your hole is about 17 yards of dirt. The one I did was about 6 times that size and I did it in a day. I was surprised how well the 50 did. The ground wasn't clay but it was compacted soil to 96%+.

Tigerotor77W
07-24-2006, 09:37 PM
Bob, welcome to the site! What do you think of the RC50 vs. the S250? (With and without VTS)

ksss
07-25-2006, 01:09 PM
I dig foundations with my 95XT routinely. The ground conditions here are difficult at best. You shouldn't have any problem. A Rezloh type edge is a big benefit in these type jobs. It really is amazing how much more effective a tooth bucket can be in straight excavation jobs like this. It really reduces fuel consumption. I would be allow the building to be burned before you dig the hole to be sure that the dimensions are correct for the amount of material left.

cddva
07-25-2006, 01:40 PM
Thanks again for all the input. He's going to remove the tin roof and do some demolition of the barn with his tractor and a chain and then burn it. He asked if I could do some compaction of the tin roof, which I should be able to, before it's buried. I'm a little concerned about keeping the tin away from the hydraulic hoses when trying to compact it though. Anyway, it should be burned before I dig a hole so I'll get a good idea of how much to dig out and I will have the tooth bar in place.

Bob Horrell
07-25-2006, 03:18 PM
Tigerotor77W, It is hard to compare the two because of the significant difference in size. The 50 does well, though, for its smaller size. I have been renting ASV's for jobs that I can't fit into with the S250 (instead of smaller bobcats) and like them pretty well.
All of my years of racing motorcycles has taken its toll on my knees and I find that with the pilot conrols, I don't have to keep my knees in a fixed position and they don't bother me at all. I am thinking of selling my S250 and going to something with pilot controls for that reason only. I am so happy with the S250 and the VTS system that it is hard to think of giving it up but I may be forced to with my knees. It is funny, because nothing seems to bother them as much as keeping them in a fixed position working the pedals. The only other time they bother me is if I have to drive for a long time without cruise control, my right knee will bother me because of the fixed position operating the gas pedal.
I am pretty impressed with ASV's new SR80. If I change, I would give it serious consideration.
On another note, when trying to reduce the size of the tin roof, I would be real carefull of not cutting up the tracks. I had to do that once and I used a 4in1 bucket. I could grab the tin sheet at one end and lift it up and then fold it without driving on it. I would then mash down the crease with the bucket and continue in this manner until it was the size I wanted. It worked pretty well with no risk of damage to the machine. I had a number of panels to do and by the time I was done there was a significant reduction in time spent on the first one vs. the last one. You end up developing system that works pretty fast.

Tigerotor77W
07-25-2006, 09:22 PM
Bob, I realized that the machine sizes were different, but was curious if you felt the RC50 approached the S250 in production.

Since you are fond of your Bobcat, have you thought of getting a new one with hand controls (namely SJC)? If you want a pure pilot-controlled system, you should try out the Cat 287B. I was operating one last week and the week before last and it was a charm. Dug really well, incredibly stable, and an all-around a great machine to drive.

Bob Horrell
07-26-2006, 03:17 PM
Tigerotor77W, the ASV50 had the digging power to fill the bucket as fast as the S250, but since the bucket size is substantially smaller (about half) than the one on the S250 overall production was slower. It definitley would outdig a similar sized bobcat with wheels because its tractive force was excellent.
I demoed a Cat 287B and was disappointed in the hydraulic lift force. The job was finishing a horse arena cut out of the side of a hill. The owner wanted a straight cut on the uphill side and was going to install a retaining wall. There was a bunch of dirt in the corners (some loose and some not yet cut) that the dozer couldn't remove. When I drove into the pile and went to lift the bucket (about 2/3 yard size) the hydraulics would stall (both lift and curl). It just didn't have the breakout force I am used to on the S250. I would have to back out some and then lift before it would work. Other than that the machine was great. I liked the pilot controls and it did a great job of finish grading the arena. I did find it somewhat time consuming cleaning out the mud from the track system when I was done. It is much faster on my VTS system because of the open design.
I also had to remove a large juniper bush with the CAT and found the low breakout force to be a problem there as well. My method is to dig down a foot to a foot and a half on one side with a tooth bucket to pop the roots and then engage the bush about 3 feet above the ground with the bucket and while driving forward, both lift and curl the bucket. This just peels the juniper right out of the ground, root ball and all. The CAT wouldn't lift or curl at all when doing this. I do a lot of land clearing of these junipers around here and this method works extremely well and fast. Having to stop and do more digging to loosen up the roots in order to get the juniper out would really slow me down. When comparing the breakout forces of the two machines, there is just over a 1,000lbs in favor of the S250. It sure feels like more when in operation, though.

Tigerotor77W
07-26-2006, 09:32 PM
I agree with you on the 287B comments, but at the same time, I also really appreciated the anti-stall feature. Digging a pool with a system like that really helps, which is why I was curious whether the RC-50 was at the same level as the S250.

Thanks for your input.

ksss
07-27-2006, 12:39 AM
I found the same to be true with the 277. The CAT machines are comfortable and for doing nothing more than fine grading they work well. They don't seem very productive when it comes to excavating material. The breakout is very poor and I also found the tractive effort to be poor as well when the machine does not have any momentum.

Dirty Water
07-27-2006, 12:45 AM
I found the same to be true with the 277. The CAT machines are comfortable and for doing nothing more than fine grading they work well. They don't seem very productive when it comes to excavating material. The breakout is very poor and I also found the tractive effort to be poor as well when the machine does not have any momentum.

I don't know where Bill (uniscaper) has been, but I have a feeling that if were still around, he wouldn't let you get away with that statement.

Scag48
07-27-2006, 12:56 AM
KSSS, I'm sorry you feel that way about the 277, ours is a HOSS! Maybe it's because I'm used to the 216, but for the money, it's one hell of a machine. The only dissapointment I'd have with it is the air tight-ness of the cab, dust still gets in fairly easy. Other than that, it moves fast, is very productive for our needs, and most of all it's extremely comfortable to operate. We don't do a whole lot of digging with it, so I've yet to experience that, but it has no problem plowing into a pile of topsoil and pushing it a good distance. We didn't really buy the machine for it's digging capabilities, I'm sure there are better machines for that, maybe Case's new tracked machines that I was tempted to wait for, but for finish grading, transporting materials around the site, and lift capacity our 277 works great for us.

Squizzy246B
07-27-2006, 04:52 AM
The 267 & 277 we have run will nose plant before they will give up lifting. 150% ROC everytime and with unbelievable breakout. Take the rear of the tracks off the ground with loader or bucket every time. The machines you drove were cooked for a demo or poorly setup....something that has been happening with the Mitsupillars is quality control in the setup....they reach the spec when they set them up at the factory and thats it. JMHO anyway but I was talking to the local ASV guy the other day who had been finding some inconsistencies in the boring out of the Cat pilot contols they use...a little has a big effect.

Tigerotor77W
07-27-2006, 10:07 PM
Squizz, Cats are generally low on breakout force when operated as you would a Bobcat or Case. It's entirely possible to push far enough into a pile and not be able to crowd the bucket or lift at all. Of course it's fine to back up as you do those two, but I think the non-anti-stall operators like to dig into a pile (with the momentum that ksss referred to), then continue to ease into the pile as they break out. Since Cats are completely capable of burying the bucket due to excellent tractive effort, the breakout force simply isn't enough to pry the bucket out.

Correct technique on a Cat, however, where you don't shove your way in and keep going forward, will help quite a bit.

ksss and Scag, the current production 277s and 287s (and everything else) are awesome digging machines. It's also possible to spin the tracks in most situations while digging, so the anti-stall doesn't take over completely. Honestly, given my aggressive (read: poor) operating skills, I can't picture myself in a Bobcat CTL. I either wouldn't get anything done or would stall the machine every bucketful.

Scag48
07-27-2006, 10:44 PM
I know for a fact our 277 will spin the tracks before anti stall comes into play, I spent 30 hours pushing piles of brush with our 85" grapple. I kid you not gentlemen I had to be pushing 4,000-5,000 pounds at times.

ksss
07-28-2006, 01:07 AM
It may be hard to explain why some machines run better than others. My experience with the 277, although conducted while testing competetive machines, I doubt very much is due to tampering of the machine. The reasoning of bringing in competetive machines would be defeated. Especially since half were CASE customers already. The machine may have just been a piece. However, the CAT trade ins around here abound. A diehard CAT owning excavation company here (2-330's, several 430's, 320 ect..and up until recently a 287B. The 287 was traded in on a Bobcat T300. Track up keep was a major problem, as was reliability of the machine. Another landscaper is currently trading in 4 CAT track machines for Takeuchi tracks. Several repair bills over 12K and a warranty that in his opinion isn't worth the paper they are written on are the reason. Another landscaper around here just ordered a 287B. We'll see how they get along. I really haven't seen anything from these tracked machines that would inspire a lot of confidence. However if they work for you thats what matters. I find it interesting that most guys who run something other than CAT complain about the same things when running CAT tracks. The reasoning may be what Tigerotor has mentioned. If you run Bobcat or CASE or whatever your level of expectation is what your familiar with. The CAT machines at least among competetive owners don't compare well in some areas as the machines they are used to.


No, initially Bill would go off on a CAT rant. However, the little I have gathered from his operation I don't think he does much digging with his 257. I do miss sparing with him however, I wish he would come back.

I take nothing away from CATs ability to grade (other than the settling of the torsion bars). I also take nothing away from operator comfort of the CAT (probably one of the best). I just don't think they are heavy duty enough nor powerful enough to excavate effectively at least compared to others on the market. This is due to a track system that although providing a smooth ride is very complex and expensive to repair, time consuming to clean, and does not tolorate abuse very well. Operating these machines under ideal or close to ideal conditions they are probably excellent machines. These are my opinons. Your mileage (especially if your a CAT customer) may vary.

Scag48
07-28-2006, 02:11 AM
The way I figure it, I'm not married to the machine, if it goes sour after a few hundred hours, get rid of it and try something else. It costs money to just dump a machine, but not nearly as much as it would to hold on to it.

Squizzy246B
07-28-2006, 10:39 AM
Squizz, Cats are generally low on breakout force when operated as you would a Bobcat or Case. It's entirely possible to push far enough into a pile and not be able to crowd the bucket or lift at all. Of course it's fine to back up as you do those two, but I think the non-anti-stall operators like to dig into a pile (with the momentum that ksss referred to), then continue to ease into the pile as they break out. Since Cats are completely capable of burying the bucket due to excellent tractive effort, the breakout force simply isn't enough to pry the bucket out.

Correct technique on a Cat, however, where you don't shove your way in and keep going forward, will help quite a bit.

ksss and Scag, the current production 277s and 287s (and everything else) are awesome digging machines. It's also possible to spin the tracks in most situations while digging, so the anti-stall doesn't take over completely. Honestly, given my aggressive (read: poor) operating skills, I can't picture myself in a Bobcat CTL. I either wouldn't get anything done or would stall the machine every bucketful.

Xing, because I have a hungry board on my 4 in 1 I can well overload the buckets capacity and it always has more than enough bucket force to crowd back or lift the back wheels completley off the ground...even on the rake whick has another 6 in of leverage.

Sometimes I have to bowl over a pile for access. Last week I had 130m3 of crushed brick and fines delivered. The semi's backed in the driveway and dumped off in one big pile leaving the machine cornered next to the shed. I had to push a pile of at least 4 tonnes to get the machine out and it was probably more because of rain.

I have seen people struggle to use the available force to push or dig with the Cat. This is because of two things, having a background with backhoes and tractors, and not getting a grip on the weight distribution and wheel placement of the Cat. You have to run a Cat skid like a wheel loader where the front must be loaded up to apply the force. You come into a pile and take some lifting slightly to load the front wheels then you go on in for the rest.

Xing, take my advice...to develop your left hand/traction control leave your foot off the accelerator and set the hand throttle like they do on those old dark ages machines. Set it fairly high...I don't know about 2/3 power (seeing as the bloody things don't have tachometers) Then go about loading a truck...about two hours of this will cure your problem...or someone will have a very dented truck. No seriously..it will eliminate your wheelspin and stalling. Once you have the travel control down pat with the hand throttle you can start lowering the hand throttle and using the pedal only when needed until you get down to no hand throttle at all.

Kaiser, Cat skids suck at grading...they need at least the weight equivalent of 1/2 a bucket of dirt up front to balance them to do as good as a Mustang or Case. Without a heavy blade they will suffer wheelspin where others will tread better.

And as far as I'm concerned with all the current crop of machines from all manufacturer's they all suck for quality. They are all mass produced and although reliability is better these days I think genuine quality control...not quality assurance, has taken a big slide. I can give you a heap of horror stories about Takeuchi if you like but what I'm after is a product that will do the job and I don't have to wait three weeks for parts to come out of Japan , Korea, America wherever and then have to pay air freight for them. What would you do if you lived in the worlds most isolated city??
Having said that....I may soon be buying a 3 tonne excavator and it probably wont be a Cat...May God have mercy on my soul:rolleyes:

AWJ Services
07-28-2006, 03:07 PM
I can give you a heap of horror stories about Takeuchi if you like but what I'm after is a product that will do the job and I don't have to wait three weeks for parts to come out of Japan , Korea, America wherever and then have to pay air freight for them.

I would like too here about problems that you have seen with the Takeuchi machines.

Tigerotor77W
07-30-2006, 10:09 PM
scag: my experience also. Correctly adjusted, anti-stall helps a LOT.

ksss: it's my understanding that properly maintained, Cat/ASV UCs are extremely durable and productive, with low maintenace costs. The question many contractors ask is whether proper maintenance is worth the smooth ride, and honestly, I think taking a half-hour each day to do the work is worth it. Suspended undercarriage is amazing; it only takes a few ruts driven over with a suspended machine then a non-suspended machine to figure that out. Of course, time spent maintaining may be time not spent digging, but that's where the competition takes over. Can you please keep us posted on how the T300 and Takeuchis hold up?

Squizzy -- that's interesting. Perhaps if you run a short enough bucket, you might get that breakout force? I know in the machines I've run, I can't get enough pryout on either circuit... I have to back out about 20 cm or so. As far as not stalling the machine, I'd been running the 287B (which I was told was not adjusted properly, but it was aggressive -- could stall engine) at full throttle to get a feel for the hydraulic speed. As far as operating skills go, I'm just not familiar enough with construction equipment to know what to do in most situations. I can dig a hole or backfill or grade, but knowing the machine as well as I do, say, my bike or my car isn't there yet. I've gotten better, but I can always improve my operating technique.

Quality stuff... it's a difficult situation. I know Cat is taking steps across all product lines to ensure better quality, and I'm sure other manufacturers are feeling the pressure to deliver as well. It's just too competitive to risk a bad product introduction (ala Deere 200 series SSL). Squizz, why are you not considering Cat for the larger mini-ex purchase? I can say from first-hand experience that the C-series machines (especially the 305C CR) are AWESOME.

Squizzy246B
07-31-2006, 09:08 AM
AWJ, I get together with a bunch of excavation guys a couple of times a year. These guys are gang busters 10 hours a day on hire...get in, get it done and on to the next job...they work hard rain hail or sunshine. They were getting about 4 to 5 thousand hours out of their machines until they were totally trashed. Two of these guys got Takeyourhoochies and they were trashed at 1800 hours, pins shot to pieces and bits off them all over, oil leaks and drive motors gone...they just were not as solidly built as what these guys were used to.

Between them 2 of those guys now have Kubota KX 121's and the other two have Volvo's. The Volvo guys are over the moon and the guys with the Kubota's are thinking of giving the Takeyourhoochies another go. They are very very cheap here and the dealer is on the improve with what we believe is a much improved product. I'll be keeping an eye on them because the new ones look very good on paper and I have had some good reports.

Xing, Standard 66" 4 in 1 bucket from Cat...no short bucket here..its all in the setup. I'm not considering Cat for an excavator because the 301.8C is a deadset POS although Cat backup and service has come through and sorted it...eventually (been out 6 times and the machine has been back to the workshop twice). Its a great digger and but has all the finesse of drunk kangaroo. I just can't justify the huge price difference between the asian machines and Cat. Consider the 301.8C at $50K AUD and the same from Takeyourhoochie, Yanmar and Komatsu at $40K AUD....thats a lot of hot dinners for a sub 2 tonne machine. Service is my number one concern after "can it do the job" and that I'm looking into.

jd270
07-31-2006, 04:14 PM
seems like most people who complain about the deere skids have never owned one my 270 has been great and the 246 i had last year was a pos ass far as the hole digging goes i dug one 5 ft deep first 4 feet hard black dirt last foot wet clay 30 ft long as wide as my tooth bucket 84 inches in under an hr not bad for one of those junk deeres huh

Tigerotor77W
07-31-2006, 09:29 PM
jd270, I'm not bad-mouthing the Deere skids here. I'm stating that their initial quality was dubious, which it was. I'm sure they've addressed those concerns by this point.

Squizz, I dunno... I haven't run an MP bucket on the 246B, but the GP bucket wouldn't do anything to the rear of the machine. /shrugs Oh well, not really a big deal... I should probably bring this topic back on track and ask how the RC50 is doing.

ksss
08-01-2006, 11:56 PM
My TK excavator is the first piece of TK equipment I have owned. I am happy with the reliability so far. I guess I'll see how it holds up. Tigerotor, as far as the CAT undercarriage being durable and low maintenance, they are anything but that. My opinon is that system has a very small window of acceptable conditions of operation. Working inside that you may be correct. Problem is a lot of guys bought these machines to do a variety of work in a variety of ground conditions. They don't tolorate abrasive conditions as well as a nonsuspended machine. I ran the CAT, TK, Bobcat Case on a mogul track. There was not that much difference. The CAT suspension soaks up the bumps better than the others but none of the machines were uncomfortable to run. The CAT was also much more likely to teter over the moguls and crash hard at the bottom due to the very long wheel base. The CAT is more quiet than the others.

A half an hour to clean the tracks? That would be if your at home with the pressure washer. It would be another story on a job site. The cost of that added upkeep gets expensive. You either shut down a half an hour early (costing 50-75 dollars a day) (best case senerio) or someone is on OT cleaning the mud from that system ($30.00 a day give or take). If you worked it 200 days that required cleaning that would be 6K spent on wages or 10K based on $50.00 a day on lost work time. Thats not productivity. Factor in the incredible cost of replacing that system and it is easy to see why many guys wont go back to a suspended undercarriage.

Scag48
08-01-2006, 11:59 PM
You guys are crazy. You only need to clean the undercarriage out if you're working in mud. It's a self cleaning system, if the material is dry it works itself out. Basically just like an excavator, don't need to clean those carriages out everyday either. Maybe I'm lucky that I work in classified sand, but cleaning undercarriages everyday is not general practice here, it just doesn't build up.

cddva
08-06-2006, 02:48 PM
I finally did the digging job yesterday with the RC50. I thought it went pretty well considering it was fairly heavy clay all the way and it was my first time digging. It took me 3 hours to dig out what you see in the pics. I don't know if you guys usually make an "in" and "out" side to your holes (excavations) but that's what felt "right" to me as I started digging. I did have the help of his tractor to move the pile of dirt from the end of the hole. For that reason I would guess you guys normally don't add an "exit", you just back out and dump the dirt? Any how, the customer was happy with the results and I was impressed with the RC50 digging capabilities, though I was testing the anti-stall feature quite a bit. All your advice/predictions were pretty much spot on, as usual!:)

AWJ Services
08-06-2006, 05:48 PM
It took me 3 hours to dig out what you see in the pics

That soil is very similar too what we face here in Georgia.

It is rock hard this time of year.

That is a good technique on a bury hole.
Sometimes I just back out if the hole needs to be short and deep rather than long.

Dirty Water
08-06-2006, 06:01 PM
In Clay I wouldn't be concerned about this, but in our Rocky loose soil here I would definitly made the hole at least 2x as wide to prevent danger of a cave in while I was in the hole with the skid.

Tigerotor77W
08-06-2006, 06:01 PM
Sweet! My estimate was on, which means I can successfully pretend I know what I'm talking about. (sarcasm)

Glad to know the project went well, and also goes to show how nice the anti-stall is in tough terrain (and when tuned correctly).

Congratulations! Maybe now that you've done a good job, other similar projects will come rolling your way.

Dirty Water
08-06-2006, 06:09 PM
Looking at that hole, That would have been easily dug with a mini-excavator in under an hour.

Why did the guy go with you over a excavator who had a mini-ex?

ksss
08-06-2006, 07:36 PM
3 hours to dig that would get an asschewing in my operation. Given the bucket was toothed and you had a tracked machine, I would have guessed much better production. Perhaps it is an operator familiarization issue.

AWJ Services
08-06-2006, 09:08 PM
Perhaps it is an operator familiarization issue.

The first time I decided too dig a hole with my TL140 it was a disaster.;)

Once you get the hang of it it is a different story.

I had a friend that were in a bind with the soil condition on there building lot.

The lot had to be pulled down about 3 to 4 feet and the dirt moved out of the way for the footers to be dug.

It was about 50 x 70 area maybe a little more.

That day taught me how too excavate in a hurry.

I guess I moved around 500 yards of dirt.

The only bad part is now I have too move the piles back into the yard.:)

cddva
08-07-2006, 11:22 PM
3 hours to dig that would get an asschewing in my operation. Given the bucket was toothed and you had a tracked machine, I would have guessed much better production. Perhaps it is an operator familiarization issue.

Guilty as charged! Too slow. Now you know why this work is not my primary source of income.
I will say this in my defense, the photo's make the overall excavation look smaller than what it was, especially in length. It may be due to the arc shape of the hole bottom. The guy I did the work for thought the same thing when he saw the photo's compared to actually being there. I told him about the asschewing I would have gotten had I worked for you, we both got a good laugh out of it.:laugh: