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View Full Version : Wich mini-ex for drain tile and septic installs?


redhornet
08-24-2006, 01:59 AM
Wich mini-ex's would you guys recommend for digging around houses to install drain tile,and for rural septic installation?

I have Cat,Deere,and bobcat nearby.thanx

Scag48
08-24-2006, 03:18 AM
That really depends. If size isn't an issue, go with a 4-5 ton machine. Our 303 is a great machine for what we use it for and I've taken on some mighty large tasks for a machine its size, but always get the biggest machine you can afford, it always pays off in the end.

tylermckee
08-24-2006, 04:58 AM
Ding septic work i would say get a 5 ton + machine, something like a kubota kx161, or if you need zero tail the u45. Didnt mention if you are looking to buy new or used?

ksss
08-24-2006, 10:45 AM
If your installing drain tile on existing homes that might be tougher. You'll want as small a machine as you can get by with to get in and around houses and landscape. However you need to have a 10 foot dig depth. That only comes in 10k and beyond machines. However IHI makes a 7500 pound machine 35NX that has an extendahoe. Generally I would, as Scag said, error on the side of larger. I get along great with a 12K machine. Mine is within two inches of being zero tail and zero swing. At 6.5 feet in width I can take that machine almost anywhere, which is pretty good for a large mini ex. I can set 500 gallon tanks and two piece thousand gallon tanks. Mine is a TK 53FR.

Dirty Water
08-24-2006, 10:48 AM
The TK53 with its side to side boom does sound ideal for working next to buildings.

I think that people need to understand that to replace a damaged drain, or install permiter drains, the landscape is going to get damaged :)

badranman
08-24-2006, 08:32 PM
We have 2 Bobcat 430 4 ton zero house swing machines. We just finished a complete redo of the drain tile on a house. These machines have worked great for us in tight areas and that's why we have them, just for jobs like this.They weigh 8500 lbs and have a 10 ft reach stock. We have the extra long dipper and now have 11 ft of reach. It also depends on dealer support and what you have for towing the machine.

Planet Landscaping
08-24-2006, 09:50 PM
We run Kubotas U35/45 . Non z turn = kx121/161. We would buy again in a second.:waving:

redhornet
08-25-2006, 01:13 AM
Thanx for the tips guys,I dont know my self if it will be new or used,depends what I can find and at what price.
My first job awaits me its a complete drain tile install on a good sized older house that never had tile installed,any tips as to doing this?I imagine I would dig down to bottom of footing all the way around,till the sump,lay the tile,cover with washed rock and backfill?what about skimming the sod off with a skid steer first to be able to lay it back later?also do you dig out the topsoil and pile it seperate from the clay?thanx so much........if its a flop,thats o.k. cause its my brother-inlaws house:nono:

tylermckee
08-25-2006, 04:45 AM
I wouldnt worry about trying to save the sod. If your going to be trenching and throwing your material the the side you'll have more messed up sod anwho. While im diging i might make 2 rows of spoils outside my trench , one close to the trench clay, and on the outside the better material. Or just say the hell with it and bring in a load of topsoil after you get backfilled, spred it, seed it, call it done.

badranman
08-25-2006, 08:02 AM
We always put a few inches of gravel down first, then the pipe, then more gravel. This keeps the pipe off the dirt and a better chance of not clogging. We also put some fabric over the gravel before we backfill to try and keep that as clean as we can. As far as saving the sod, good luck with that. Tell the customer they're probably looking at a resod or seeding when done.

murray83
08-25-2006, 06:07 PM
what size gravel are you guys useing down in halifax?

guys up here are trying to tell home owners that its good to use 3" crushed rock.....yeah right and "oh fabric? you don't need that.....",charging $4-5 grand on an average sized home.making me wanna buy my own backhoe more and more each day.

Scag48
08-25-2006, 07:58 PM
If you don't put fabric down you're asking for trouble in the future. More than likely on most drain tile restorations you're fixing someone's original mistake that caused the system to fail.

murray83
08-25-2006, 08:13 PM
i agree i know an older lady that just bought a new house last year,shes replacing her drain tile next week $4500 it'll cost her she told me what they're trying to pull

3 inch stone as backfill
no fabric....idiots
a backhoe $50/hr
and materials,he quoted her 2 days

as i said before i'm tired of hearing people getting ripped off by these morons

Gravel Rat
08-25-2006, 11:05 PM
What we use for perimeter drains is 1 1/2 drain rock I forget how much a ton it is but the average house takes 24 yards. Most contractors use 4" perf pipe the use of big O isn't a quality job it crushes way too easy.

If the house site is tough and the material has to be moved around with buckets or wheelbarrows 3/4 clear crush is used its alot more expensive because it is crushed rock that has been washed. Regular drain rock is screened out of the dirt and washed so its clean rock. Use lots of rock over the drain pipe make it alteast 24" thick over all the perf pipe

For drainage I probably wouldn't go smaller than 6000lb machine but a 8000lb machine would work the best. Its not hard digging in Alberta not like the West Coast of B.C. where you hit rocks of Gibralter or nuggets that weigh 1000lbs.

tylermckee
08-26-2006, 05:53 AM
What we use for perimeter drains is 1 1/2 drain rock I forget how much a ton it is but the average house takes 24 yards. Most contractors use 4" perf pipe the use of big O isn't a quality job it crushes way too easy.

If the house site is tough and the material has to be moved around with buckets or wheelbarrows 3/4 clear crush is used its alot more expensive because it is crushed rock that has been washed. Regular drain rock is screened out of the dirt and washed so its clean rock. Use lots of rock over the drain pipe make it alteast 24" thick over all the perf pipe

For drainage I probably wouldn't go smaller than 6000lb machine but a 8000lb machine would work the best. Its not hard digging in Alberta not like the West Coast of B.C. where you hit rocks of Gibralter or nuggets that weigh 1000lbs.
we do peremiter drains the same way, except we use 5/8 drain rock cause its close by and easy to shovel if need be. Average house usually takes 24 yards or so with ~12" cover ontop of the perf. Last couple houses i did took closer to 50 yards they were so big. fabric is a must, new construction you have to have your perimeter drains inspected once you get your perf, rock, and fabric down. Inspecter told me he failed a guy that was using perf with the filter sock over it, but wasnt going to put cloth ontop of the drain rock. What good is the drain rock when its packed full of silt?

Dirty Water
08-27-2006, 10:30 AM
I find it hard to believe that anyone would use a crushed aggregate for drainage purpose.

5/8 Drainrock is $10 a yard here, doesn't get any cheaper or easier than that.

jazak
08-27-2006, 12:55 PM
A CAT 303-305 sized machine with cab and ac. :clapping:

badranman
08-27-2006, 10:07 PM
Murray, we usually use 1" clear. 1 1/2" is a bit hard to shovel.;)

Gravel Rat
08-27-2006, 11:30 PM
The 1-1 1/2" drain rock is damn hard to shovel done many jobs where I had to shovel drain rock it makes you sweat and can give you sore arms and hands.

We don't have 5/8s round rock if we want that small it takes alot of screening and washing. 3/4" clear crush is made because thats what navvy jack is made with for concrete. So when your working on a foundation that is tough to get a wheelbarrow around 3/4 clear is easier to handle too hard to move regular drain rock in 5 gallon oil buckets.

The round washed aggregate here is 3/8s Birds eye (pea gravel) and 1-1 1/2 drain rock.

For backfill around houses we will use 3/8s minus up against the foundation its easier to compact because the excavated fill from the foundation site is pretty coarse material it will gouge the damp proofing on the concrete walls.

murray83
08-28-2006, 05:07 PM
interesting to see how everyone does a basic job such as this differently across the country.

Gravel Rat
08-28-2006, 09:55 PM
If you are a construction site labourer and it comes time to do the perimeter drains you dred the day you have to move the drain rock around. Lots of hand shoveling and wheelbarrow work. A excavator with a clean up bucket can move the material a little closer but hand shoveling is needed.

Kepple Services
08-28-2006, 11:39 PM
I have what you need for sale. I have a 6 month old bobcat 435 ZHS machine for sale. A/C and heat, thumb, 24" bucket on it, around 150 hours... still under factory warranty. If your interested PM me....

tylermckee
08-29-2006, 12:26 AM
I must be doing something wrong cause the only time i need drain rock hand shoveld is in corners (sometimes), or on a small side yard with existing landscaping on the lot next door.

Gravel Rat
08-29-2006, 12:34 AM
Pretty well 90% of the houses built here you can't get a machine around once the walls are done. I did one job where we had to move 36 yards of drain rock by hand no way of getting a machine around the house.

The jobsites here are usually too uneven ground for a skid steer to possibly stay on all 4 wheels.

Scag48
08-29-2006, 03:08 AM
GR, couldn't you just get a ballsy guy on a mini ex? I've tackled some difficult slopes with our 303 that I probably wouldn't have taken our 312 on, mainly because the mini has a blade that allows for a little stabilization. Now I know just about all the minis you guys run have steel tracks, so that sounds like the ultimate slope machine. A mini with a blade and hard biting steel tracks.

turfquip
08-29-2006, 08:33 AM
I worked for an old Dutch homebuilder back in the 80's and we topped off our drain tile gravel with a thick layer of clean straw all the way around.

Filter cloth may not have been real prevelant back then but this is the way he had done it for years, without problem.

janb
08-29-2006, 03:16 PM
I find it hard to believe that anyone would use a crushed aggregate for drainage purpose.

5/8 Drainrock is $10 a yard here, doesn't get any cheaper or easier than that.

Depends on the geology, quarry and screening, we have some unwashed crushed from a pit that is clean enough for inspected septic drainfields (by very picky inspector, with his nifty handheld 'density' meter) We have very little round drain rock locally, and very expensive ($20/yd)

and Crushed is much easier to hand shovel :) (at least my wife prefers to shovel that :weightlifter: ,... tho she often puts me in the trench setting pipe and runs the machine herself)

I often buy 'ballast' in different sizes for drainage 3/4 - 4"

Fabric is a must, filter cloth top for drainage, geotek bottom for roadbed, geotek mesh for shoring back and anchoring retaining walls, great stuff.

I use ABS pipe for downspouts, and any perimeter piping that is gonna see potential digging / traffic areas, and for the laterals from perf to dry well. Its cheap insurance as compared to PVC, and the PP (Flex drains) are used only in 'non-critical' and necessary applications (tight corners, staggered grades, rocks in trench...)

Gravel Rat
08-29-2006, 04:36 PM
If the excavation contractor is still on site then they will try get the drain rock moved around as much as they can possibly reach. Usually the excavation contractor has left the site then they come back for backfill after the framing is almost complete. The building contractor has to strip the forms and do the foundation coating and the perimeter drains.

Another thing to keep in mind 90% of the houses built here don't have in ground basements they have basements but they are only partially in ground or the backside is filled with dirt to raise the level of the ground to make the first floor easier access.

murray83
08-29-2006, 06:21 PM
well since i got this thread off track...back on track she goes.......

a 3 ton machine would be a good size,303's are nice even thought its from cat,small enough to not disturb the yards very much your running over and a digging depth around 10 feet so it'll reach your footings.

septic wise,repairs will be smaller excavations no big issues,but new installs would take more time even with a 305 size.

if used isn't a big deal to you the cat rental outlets have the rental mini's on sale every so often.