Pathetic

[cedarcroft]

Its sad that the Organic forum is so friggin' DEAD. I think we are on the cusp of Organics being readliy accepted as standard procedure for lawn and tree care and yet thsi forum is a ghost town. This worrys me. everyday I am researching products and practices and trying to formulate a viable corporate structure to educate customers and also earn a living doing so. I come here to see what others have to say and maybe gain some knowledge and it seems like in the last 6-8 months the activity here has dried up.
I know there are a few people on here who make a living doing strictly lawn and tree care, is there anyone else trying to build a Organic only business focused on Turf and trees only like the Chem guys? in other words, no lawn maintenance, just fert and spraying etc.

[dallen]

People resist change. It is coming, however. Read the beginniing on page 66 of the September issue of Forbes magazine, Organic Miracle Needed.

[cedarcroft]

NICE!!
17 views and one reply. get fired up people....we are on the verge of major changes. The world is ready. we have to be ready to serve the need.

[mrkosar]

i feel the same as you...very disappointed in the lack of conversation in this forum. i started up an organic based lawn care company this year with several different options for customers. one pure organic program and then a couple variations of programs with reduced chemicals. it is going to happen, but is still a while away. costs, impatient customers, uneducated or misinformed people, weeds, and several other obstacles lay ahead of us. one big problem i'm running into this year is people expect so much because they are paying more than they were last year. and to tell you the truth the lawns probably don't look as good because they are not that usual fake green that my customers are used to. it works though. i've seen research plots and other lawns that have been on organic fert programs for 3+ years and they look thick and green. convincing customers to wait and continue to spend more for results they might not see for 3 years is tough though. i would love for there to be more posts on this site, but every time i put one out there you get two or three responses and then the site goes dead for 4 days.

[cedarcroft]

Good for you Bernie!
I think if we can sell it correctly, people will accept the time factor. There will always be people that don't care and just want GREEN perfect lawns regardless of what chemicals need to be put down. Over time an organically treated lawn will be much cheaper to maintain than a chemical lawn.
I get a newsletter from EcoStructure financial and to summarize, he points out that until now environmental causes have been taken up by charities and non-profits. this has led to enough awareness of ecological issues that there have been societal changes. these societal changes have paved the way for "Green" companies to step into the marketplace and make a killing. whether it be clean energy or organic turf and tree care, people are aware and want to do the right thing.
I am excited!!!
GET FIRED UP:usflag:
:blob2:

[bdoss123]

Although I'm not in the business of fert/squirt, I hope to be in the future. I live in an area that is big on organic foods and "grassroots" products (no pun intended). I also maintain several rental properties that I would love to get on a strictly organic program.
But just like you guys, I haven't been overly impressed with the solutions that I've seen. Green guardian looked interesting to me, but I haven't been overly impressed by the reports from the forum, and have not had time to try it on my lawn(s).
I would love to get a collection of info/results on organic (or natural) solutions in order to at least move in a proactive direction.

- BD

[Keegan]

I to cannot belive how dead it is here. I have an organic lawn care business for 3 years. Every year it seems to gain more interest in people. I do have a few very impatient customers. They don't want to hear that it takes longer to get results. Oh well

[dcgreenspro]

i am dealing with the same problem. even when i explain that it takes a good two or three years of organic fert, seed and aerification to really get it going, they ask for other alternatives....

[cedarcroft]

BD-
regardless of the products, the cultural practices are most important. water correctly, cut correctly, apply compost correctly and seed correctly and you are 80% of the way there. the products available are everywhere, figure out what is good for you. I am no expert, but I feel the most important thing is to get started in the right direction.

[livingsoils]

I also own a organic lawn company and I have found that people are willing to pay more and be more patient as long as your explain what your are doing to their lawns. I believe customers not only want a green healthy lawn but they want some personal attention. Customers want to know what you are doing to their lawn and what you are putting on it. I have found that if you explain your program and talk to to them when you are on the lawn they will very happy. (sometimes they want to talk too much and you get nothing done, but I think that is part of being customer service oriented).

This board it is a little dead. I have found if you find a company that deals with organic stuff they will talk your ear off and they are a great source of info. Right Natty!:)
Mike

[bdoss123]

Do any of you organic guys have before/after pics, or at least pictures of a current lawn being maintained w/ organics?

BD

[mrkosar]

granted this is my lawn and my cultural practices are done correctly, but still looks good and chemical free.

i had used chemicals on this lawn for the past 15 years or so, then started up an organic based lawn care company this year. i decided to try to go straight to a pure organic program rather than transitioning through a bridge program. it has worked out quite well. i use a speedy weedy to hand pull weeds, but rarely see any because of the thickness of the lawn. this lawn has gotten 4 out 5 applications, just like my customers. a pure organic fertilizer derived from soybean meal, alfalfa meal, and a few other things (9-2-3). it can be done, but from what i've seen the most important part as someone else said are the cultural practices and willingness to get extra services done such as aeration and overseeding.

i'm sorry i currently don't have any more pics yet, but should have some decent before and after pics at the end of this year.

[NattyLawn]

I also own a organic lawn company and I have found that people are willing to pay more and be more patient as long as your explain what your are doing to their lawns. I believe customers not only want a green healthy lawn but they want some personal attention. Customers want to know what you are doing to their lawn and what you are putting on it. I have found that if you explain your program and talk to to them when you are on the lawn they will very happy. (sometimes they want to talk too much and you get nothing done, but I think that is part of being customer service oriented).

This board it is a little dead. I have found if you find a company that deals with organic stuff they will talk your ear off and they are a great source of info. Right Natty!:)
Mike


I'll remember that...When you call or stop in the meter will be running from now on...
:laugh: :laugh:

[Microbe]

%90 percent of landscapers in my area can't speak with customers period. Second hey if you can't spray a customers house with toxic pesticides then you can't make money. Third, you have to be intelligent and enthusiastic about landscaping in general and most hate there job, hate what they do, and just wana get by and cut grass to make money. THere is a very small percentage of landscapers that actually care about the environment in general. I beleive that most landscapers would spray 2-4d inside people's homes if they were paid to do so its just plain pathetic. I'm also EXTREMELY GLAD that most landscapers are like this and have very limited communication skills with there clients... because I've taken at least 30 or so accounts from your "typical, spray and mow landscaper." Thanks to all the chemical guy's for using your chemical herbicidal madness! Keep spraying and keep killing small animals, birds, dogs, keep going and use very toxic stuff so I can steal your customers also!

[cedarcroft]

Now were talking. This is the time for Organic Co's to really start making serious headway. everyday there is an article somewhere about the dangers of pesticides etc. people are getting educated, we just need to provide them with the means to reach their objectives.
BTW, I am not some tree hugging hippie with an agenda. I just have very strong feelings about the use of pesticides and synthetic chemicals in my area. we don't need anymore chemiclas in our aquafir and washing into our harbors. This type of localized thinking is what drives people to do the right thing.

[bdoss123]

Keep it coming guys. I am definatley a fan of aeration and sliceseeding as needed. But it brings me to another question: When renovating an existing lawn w/ organic practices, what do you choose to kill the existing vegitation (such as K-31, in a yard that will be converted to TTTF)? Also, what organic fert is recomended for a newly planted lawn?

-BD

[Microbe]

In my career so far in this industry I have found that grass in general still needs a sythetic organic fertilizer for the demand that grass has for nitrogen. Defenatly straight organic fertilizers will give you decent results, but I have found that you will have more disease and less thick lush growth with just slow release fertilizers, but thats just me. A mix of organic fertilizers and bridge products I find to work the best. As long as you feed the soil and prep the soil very well with compost, manures, and good top soil that in the long run you will have a stand out lawn without the use of fertilizers period! For a situation with K-31 "I never heard of it," but I can tell you that if the lawn is infested with this noxious weed then I would round up the entire lawn, or sod cut the lawn mechanically very very deeply and remove all roots. If you decide to round up the property over seeds and rake out the thatch that you created I would start with a %50/%50 organic fertilizer. Mabye like 10-6-8 or something. Grass is the largest feeder besides roses mabye out there. What do you think?

[Microbe]

WHen if comes to pesticides..... THe last LABLE I READ HAD 8.63% ARSENIC IN THE MIXTURE FOR CRABGRASS TREATMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! R U FREAK"N KIDDING ME? Yea.. "MRS. SMITH I"M GONA SPRAY SOME CRAB GRASS FOR $50 and don't let your young 1 year old kid come out and roll around until tommorrow." R U FREAK"N KIDDING ME? The product by the way WAS TRIMEC SELECTIVE GRASS WEED KILLER. DAM THOSE GUY"S AT TRIMEC! THERE SELLING TOXIC OR TURNING PEOPLES YARDS IN TO TOXIC HEAVY METAL WASTE SITES. KNOWLEDGE/KNOWLEDGE/COMMUNICATION/COMMUNICATION/CONFIDENCE/CONFIDENCE/ENTHUSIASM/ENTHUSIASM are the only; 4 rules for becoming successfull in organic property care. SO WHAT IF YOU HAVE A PATCH OF CLOVER OR SOME CRAB GRASS.... BIG FREAK"N DEAL... SO I SHOULD POISON YOUR PROPERTY TO GET RID OF SOME STUPID CRAB GRASS RIGHT? ITS A JOKE... STOP THE MADDNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dallen]

There is a very good article in the September issue of Forbes magazine about Scotts and their natural/organic goals. Buy a copy and read it.

[Microbe]

YAY! Go Scotts Go! There the leader in poison use and the leader in there "Magical," 4 step program. Put down chemical fertilizer, then blanket your entire property with unneccessary weed killer plus chemical fertilizer, then blanket your entire property with crabgrass pre emergent plus chemical fertilizer, then oh wow, another application of chemical fertilizer. Now your gona go organic huh Scotts? Whats next? 4 Step organic program now for retarted individuals that know nothing about organics. Lets see... Mabye corn gluten then organic fert, organic fert, organic fert, ok, so now scotts is organic? I mean seriously Scott's has been a full chemical company recking havoc on our environment. From ORTHO to SCOTTS LAWN SERVICE in BOHEMIA LONG ISLAND WHICH IS A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I worked for them and all I have to say is PATHETIC! They know nothing about soil biology or how to feed the soil in general for an overall better result. Long Island has a very very sacred water supply that has been getting poisoned for over 40 years or since SCOTTS and other chemical companies got together to reck havoc on poor weeds such as clover and others that really will go away with good agricultural practices instead of the cheap, pollutive way of chemical herbicidal warfare. Tell the owner of Scotts to go roll around on his lawn after he put down weed and feed STEP 2 on his lawn... Better yet mabye right after it rains.........

[dallen]

People like you and me own Scotts. It is a public company. The job of the managers of Scotts is to make money for us, the owners. Not a bad goal, particularly if they want to stay in business. Had Scotts gone organic years ago, they would no longer exist. The market is changing and the simple fact that Scotts recognizes this and is adjusting their product mix speaks volumes. Read the article with an open mind and you might be able to learn something. I've been to Scotts' headquarters and have had meetings with several of their research guys and upper management. They all have PhDs. Scotts is not some half-baked outfit staffed by a bunch of has-been hippies out to save the world. They are pursuing opportunities in a changing world, just like you and me.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

use the right cultural practices -people dont want to hear it cost more to mow and water hell most people dont even have sprinklers,
in this i want it now society we live in it is very hard to change people over to the organic side i am glad to see it changing to organic but it going to be a real slow trip.

[dallen]

At the end of the day, this is all about marketing. Maybe the word "organic" is part of the problem. Dito for "natural". What does Average Joe Homeowner think of when he hears those words? I think of unbathed, dirty, smelly and ideological hippies of the late 60s and early 70s. No, I don't want an organic yeard, but I'm all for getting away from chemicals.

[NattyLawn]

People like you and me own Scotts. It is a public company. The job of the managers of Scotts is to make money for us, the owners. Not a bad goal, particularly if they want to stay in business. Had Scotts gone organic years ago, they would no longer exist. The market is changing and the simple fact that Scotts recognizes this and is adjusting their product mix speaks volumes. Read the article with an open mind and you might be able to learn something. I've been to Scotts' headquarters and have had meetings with several of their research guys and upper management. They all have PhDs. Scotts is not some half-baked outfit staffed by a bunch of has-been hippies out to save the world. They are pursuing opportunities in a changing world, just like you and me.

Scott's, like Chemlawn is more of a marketing company than a lawn care company. If Scotts could produce organic product at the same price as the junk they sell now, don't you think they would? If they were committed to the customer and a healthy lawn, it would be a no brainer, right? Wrong. Wait, they have PHD's so they must know what they're doing, right? You can leave the Scott's talk at the door, and when you associate the term organic with smelly hippies, what does that say about you? A 50 year old ultra conservative Republican. But I'm just generalizing like you and your word association.

Don't even get Microbe started. The posts with ALL CAPS are next. ;)

[NattyLawn]

use the right cultural practices -people dont want to hear it cost more to mow and water hell most people dont even have sprinklers,
in this i want it now society we live in it is very hard to change people over to the organic side i am glad to see it changing to organic but it going to be a real slow trip.


I've said it many times on here. In today's fast food nation, telling people that organics cost more, and the fact that green up and results are not instant is the toughest part of selling organic lawn services.

[dallen]

If Scotts could produce organic product at the same price as the junk they sell now, don't you think they would? I never make assumptions.
If they were committed to the customer and a healthy lawn, it would be a no brainer, right? Depends upon your definition of committed to the customer and healthy lawn. Wait, they have PHD's so they must know what they're doing, right? No, it means they are highly educated. and when you associate the term organic with smelly hippies, what does that say about you? You missread my post. I am not talking about me, but rather I am talking about Average Joe Homeowner. A 50 year old ultra conservative Republican. I'm 51. And I'm developing organic-type turf fertilizers What does that say about you?

[Prolawnservice]

What is organic TYPE supposed to mean?

[dallen]

What is organic TYPE supposed to mean?

It means I am making things happen.

[dallen]

Rather than wonder "what happened".

[cedarcroft]

Finally we got some action in here.
The fact that scotts is making an attempt to make inroads in the Organic market is proof positive that there is a broad market and need for organic lawn care. take this as a huge benefit. they do gazillions of dollars worth of market research and wouldn't even think about organics if there wasn't a viable market. I went to school for hotel and restaurant management and one thing that always stuck with me (maybe the only thing!!) was that burger king would always put there stores as close as possible to the nearest mcDonalds. SO much so that in NYC there is a McDonalds and BK that share a wall. the point is that BK felt that if MCD's was putting in a restaurant, they knew there was a big market in the area, so they jumped on it. thats always stuck with me in my biz and given me a great perspective on competition. regardless of what Scotts ends up doing, they have identified a need and now we can capitalize on it.

[NattyLawn]

At the end of the day, this is all about marketing. Maybe the word "organic" is part of the problem. Dito for "natural". What does Average Joe Homeowner think of when he hears those words? I think of unbathed, dirty, smelly and ideological hippies of the late 60s and early 70s. No, I don't want an organic yeard, but I'm all for getting away from chemicals.

I was referring to this post here, dallen, where you say the word "I". People that think like that aren't the customers you want anyway.

Is there a market for organics? Yes. How long will it take to grow that market? A while. Most of the inroads are starting with farmers and golf courses, and will eventually trickle down to the LCO's and residential lawn care customers.

[muddstopper]

Natty, I think you are alittle behind, I believe the market for organics is already here with the homeowners. Todays current homeowneres are the hippies of the 60's and 70's. And they have more money to spend than their parents did.

As for Scotts and other fertilizer companies getting on the organic bandwagon, sure they have people with the phd's but that doesnt make them smart. People with phd's tend to only belive what they already know and wont consider anybodyelses research until they have proven it for themselfs. The whole problem with the chemical companies is their approach to the organic market, you can see it on every bag of organic product they sell, they still think in terms of NPK. I even had a organic rep start promoteing the benefits of npk to his customers and this organic comapny makes a very good organic product that doesnt contain any biosoilds or manures or inorganic fertilizers. Its the only organic product with the Platium rateing in the Governments Leeds program. Selling NPK is a complete switch from what the founder of the company intended his products to be. Now why such a switch, simple NPK sells, its what every fertilizer company promotes and what every homeowner understands to be what their lawns need.

Unless Scotts and the other fertilizer companies stop thinking in terms of NPK, you will never have a cheap viable source of good organic products.
Its a shame too, because the organic sources are so readily available and the process is pretty simple to convert the raw materials to a packageable, usable form. It will take scientists to insure the quality and blending of the products, but it is already being done and is certainly repeatable.

[bntt68]

What are you guys opinions of Nature Safe products?

[Microbe]

Nature Safe and other companies producing quality natural or organic products are good quality and effective products if used correctly. I find when using organic products to either "treat/feed," a shrub or lawn the most challenging task is is waiting for that moment when timing is everything. Like when spraying a peach tree in dormant season with Lime/Sulfur or in the spring when the petals have to be 3/4 fallen off before application. I feel that all organic products work if used correctly and at the time when all pests, herbs, are most vunerable to attack.

As far as the hippie remark............ DUDE HIPPIES RULE!!!!!!!! When you smoke a joint or get a little wasted and see life threw stoned eyes you actually see how simple life is and how complicated/toxic/conservative we all made it.

[YardPro]

mudstopper
i will disagree with some of your statement....

the reason you see NPK on the big boys bags is becuase it is the law.... you have to state the macro nutrient ratio of any product that is sold as a fertilizer.

this ratio is VERY important. How else can one determine how much product to apply?? All plant material (especially commercial crops and turfs) have reccomended rates of nitrogen application. More than this amount is where we get into problems. Applying more nitrogen than the plant can uptake in a given time is how nitrogen runoff, and subsiquently non target pollution occurs

The other reason why these are listed, is so people can monitor other potential problems like phosphate pollution..... if an organic product will release phosphate when broken down we need to know, so we can keep tabs on what we are applying.

plants are VERY SIMPLE organisms.... they need only a few things to perform thier role in the ecosystem....thier major requirements are NPK.. that is why all the companies think this way.....
"organics" are only products that when metabolized by microbes, worms, etc... produce NPK for the plant..

i think you will see a larger increase in "organic" market when the "organic" applicators become less abrasive to those that choose not to use thier methods.

I for one am a formally trained biologist, who picked landscaping as a carreer. I see a lot of knee jerk reactions and the "hippie" anti establishment mindset in the "organic" crowd...

statements like "synthetic fertilizers are killing the earth" are nonsense and most people know it. When you have those in your group that are constantly attacking the mainstream and making claims like this is reduces the credibility your whole movement.
It is the same thing as when a farmer abuses synthetics and grossly over applies, and cuases nontarget run off. The organic crowd uses this as a generalization for what all non organic people do.....

[Norm Al]

thats good stuff right there yardpro!

[YardPro]

here are some good links on the nitrogen cycle.
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/9s.html
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/N/NitrogenCycle.html

here are some phosphate links:
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/308phosphorus.html
http://www.lenntech.com/phosphorus-cycle.htm

how it works in photosynthesis----http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/8/622

[muddstopper]

Yardpro, I think you misunderstood my remarks about the NPK. My point is that NPK are not the only nutrients necessary for good plant growth, But NPK are the nutrients most promoted by fertilizer companies, almost as if they are the only nutrients needed. When an organic company starts using the same sort of approach to fertility, they are no different than the chemical fertilizer companies. Certainly NPK is important and labeling is required by law for the very reasons you listed. And should be required for organics as well as chemical fertilizers. When you buy a bag of 10/10/10 fertilizer you are buying NPK, even tho there is a large amount of filler material along with the fertilizer and you are gettiing more than just 10/10/10. Compost might just be .5/.5/.5, but you are also getting other nutrients, just like in the fertilizer, that might not be listed on the lable. Something you are getting from the compost you dont get in the fertilizer is Carbon

[lilmarvin4064]

I think Calcium is overlooked quite often

[YardPro]

mudstopper.
any good fertilizer will contain a good mix of micronutrients. the micronutrient needs vary so widely across the country that you need to do soil tests and determine what micronutrient defencies/surplusses you have and treat accordingly. i don't think that the fert. companies only look at fertilizer form the NPK standpoint. They emphasize that ratio becuase they are the major nutrients, and thier ratio is very important. Any good fertilizer has a pretty well balanced formulation. also you can custom blend your own if you are prepared to order a good sized order (a few pallets)

lilmarvin..
yes, calcium is super important in most areas. Here we have way too much. Our island is basically decomposed seashells, so calcium carbonate is super high here. The water is so hard it is off the chart on all the normal tests.

also here we have alkilinity problems and have to use sulphur and NEVER lime...

this is a good example fo why it is important to do a soil test. and make the required adjustments...

also some plant/turf varieties do not like overly rich soils. it is all determined by the local environments.

[muddstopper]

mudstopper.
any good fertilizer will contain a good mix of micronutrients. the micronutrient needs vary so widely across the country that you need to do soil tests and determine what micronutrient defencies/surplusses you have and treat accordingly.

I know that and you know that, but the market the fertilizer and organic companies are trying to attract are the adverage homeownere that probably doesnt know that. Also Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen are considered primary elements, just as necessary as NPK for plant growth. Oxygen and Hydrogen can generally be applied with water, but where do the fertilizer companies get their carbon. How many fertilizer companies even add carbon to their fertilizers? Can you even mix carbon with fertilizers? It all cant come from the CO2 the plants use, in fact carbon is given off from the soil in the form of Carbon oxides. High nitrogen levels will cause the consumsion of carbon from the soil by the microbes and be given off as CO2 to the astmosphere. Hence a loss of humis from the soil from the simple application of the primary element N. If a company is promoteing a chemical/organic fertilizer product based on NPK just to green up a lawn, that company is not promoteing a healthy soil. Even tho that product might contain all the nutrients necessary for a healthy soil, NPK is being used to lure a potential customer into buying their particular product. Exampe of that type of promotion can be seen in this forum by certain organic companies that are trying to develope organic products with higher nitrogen content. NPK sells products, but that doesnt necessary make the organic product a better product than the chemical ones. NPK is a neccesary compotent of a healthy soil, but to much of anything can cause just as much harm as good. Neither chemical or organic companies have any control over how the end users use or apply their products, but I feel a little more educational material on their part would help insure that their products are used in a more environmentally friendly manner.

[timturf]

mudstopper
i will disagree with some of your statement....

the reason you see NPK on the big boys bags is becuase it is the law.... you have to state the macro nutrient ratio of any product that is sold as a fertilizer.

this ratio is VERY important. How else can one determine how much product to apply?? All plant material (especially commercial crops and turfs) have reccomended rates of nitrogen application. More than this amount is where we get into problems. Applying more nitrogen than the plant can uptake in a given time is how nitrogen runoff, and subsiquently non target pollution occurs

The other reason why these are listed, is so people can monitor other potential problems like phosphate pollution..... if an organic product will release phosphate when broken down we need to know, so we can keep tabs on what we are applying.

plants are VERY SIMPLE organisms.... they need only a few things to perform thier role in the ecosystem....thier major requirements are NPK.. that is why all the companies think this way.....
"organics" are only products that when metabolized by microbes, worms, etc... produce NPK for the plant..

i think you will see a larger increase in "organic" market when the "organic" applicators become less abrasive to those that choose not to use thier methods.

I for one am a formally trained biologist, who picked landscaping as a carreer. I see a lot of knee jerk reactions and the "hippie" anti establishment mindset in the "organic" crowd...

statements like "synthetic fertilizers are killing the earth" are nonsense and most people know it. When you have those in your group that are constantly attacking the mainstream and making claims like this is reduces the credibility your whole movement.
It is the same thing as when a farmer abuses synthetics and grossly over applies, and cuases nontarget run off. The organic crowd uses this as a generalization for what all non organic people do.....

It's this additude that keep alot of people away from this forum!

Nothing wrong with useing sythetics and organics in a program. They both have great benefits! It's the particular products you pick, rate you use them, timing, and the need for their use that is important!

[YardPro]

mudstopper.

carbon is not consumed by soil microbes, it is a waste product (as it also is for all organisms except plants)..as for carbon, hydrogen and oxygen being "primary".... they are products of respiration, which is a different topic... none of these are supplied by fertilizers, nor do they need to be.
water is H2O.. this supplies all the hydrogen a plant would ever need. NH3 which is one of the only two forms of nitrogen a plant can use has 3 hydrogens attached that are stripped off in the metabolic processes of the plant's respiration...
Hydrogen is overly abundant in the environment, so that is not considered at all when feeding plants....
Oxygen is a also in vast supply to the plant. Oxygen is actually a waste product of plants during thier daytime respiration. They intake carbon dioxide from the air and release oxygen..
the net chemical equation is:
6H2O + 6CO2 ----------> C6H12O6+ 6O2

the plant intakes 6 molecules of water (H2O), and 6 molecules of carbon dioxide (CO2)... through respiration the plant produces one molecole of sugar, and six molecules of oxygen (O2)...

there is absolutely no need whatsoever to even consider oxygen, hydrogen, and carbon in ANY fertilizer, as it is environmentally abundant. The minerals in the soil, and the three major nutrients are what we need to consider.

timturf;
there is no "attitude" in my post, I am sorry if you inferred one. I totally agree that there is no issue whatsoever. All my posts are intended to do is to get people to educate themselves about this topic. The more people learn about plants metabolisms, and the ACCURATE information about soil ecology, the better they will be at whatever route they take.
there is definately more of a "green" movement happening.. that is wonderful..but people still need to educate themselves about plants, and thier needs. Remember.. just becuase something is "organic" or natural does NOT mean it is safe....or even beneficial...

As for this "attitude" being the reason people shy away from this forum.... not true.. I have just recently stared posting here to try and get some discussions going, becuase the forum was VERY INACTIVE.....

[YardPro]

mudstopper...

Please do not think my responses to your posts are at all antagonistic. I do not mean them that way at all.

I enjoy the debate, and you raise good questions that lot of others that visit here should be asking before they begin dumping anything into the soil..

[muddstopper]

mudstopper...

Please do not think my responses to your posts are at all antagonistic. I do not mean them that way at all.

I enjoy the debate, and you raise good questions that lot of others that visit here should be asking before they begin dumping anything into the soil..

Not at all, I find a good debate to be healthy for all concerned.

Carbon is stored in the soil in the form of humis. Humis is neccesary for a healthy soil. Improper fertilization, organic or chemical will cause the soil humis levels to be depleted. The major culprit is overuse of nitrogen. Just because someone choose to use manures or other high N organic sources as a fertilizer, doent mean they are protecting their humis levels in the soil, manures contain large amounts of N and can cause the same consumpton of humis as pure Urea N. Whenever carbon:nitrogen ratios get below 10-15 C:1 N the microbes will start consuming the carbon stored in the humis and deplete the humis levels in the soil. So yes microbes do eat carbon. Now why is humis so important to a healthy soil. Of all the materials that make up a soils structure, Humis and clays are the only ones that are negitively charged and have the ability to hold onto other nutrients. Humis having aprox. 3 times the holding power as clays. Humis and clays are made up of other anion elements but can also contain cation elements, Ca, Mg, K, ect. Whether the elements are adsorbed or absorded into the humis and clay particles determines the availability of those nutrients to plants. Humis levels are easier to raise in the soil by farming microbes than it is by returning compost and organic material to the soil. To farm microbes, one must first restore the soils chemistry by using the proper amounts of nutrients, not just NPK. If you never add anything to the soil but NPK, you will never restore the proper soil chemisty and will see a continued decline in the soil structure. As the chemisty and structure of the soil declines, so does the microbial life in that soil. Soil is Chemical, Physical and Biological, and you cant have one without the others. You can change one part, (such as fertilizing with high N) and see a notiable improvement in the plant life, but if you continue to let the other parts slide, the one change you made to the soil will be short lived.

[timturf]

mudstopper.

carbon is not consumed by soil microbes, it is a waste product (as it also is for all organisms except plants)..as for carbon, hydrogen and oxygen being "primary".... they are products of respiration, which is a different topic... none of these are supplied by fertilizers, nor do they need to be.
water is H2O.. this supplies all the hydrogen a plant would ever need. NH3 which is one of the only two forms of nitrogen a plant can use has 3 hydrogens attached that are stripped off in the metabolic processes of the plant's respiration...
Hydrogen is overly abundant in the environment, so that is not considered at all when feeding plants....
Oxygen is a also in vast supply to the plant. Oxygen is actually a waste product of plants during thier daytime respiration. They intake carbon dioxide from the air and release oxygen..
the net chemical equation is:
6H2O + 6CO2 ----------> C6H12O6+ 6O2

the plant intakes 6 molecules of water (H2O), and 6 molecules of carbon dioxide (CO2)... through respiration the plant produces one molecole of sugar, and six molecules of oxygen (O2)...

there is absolutely no need whatsoever to even consider oxygen, hydrogen, and carbon in ANY fertilizer, as it is environmentally abundant. The minerals in the soil, and the three major nutrients are what we need to consider.

timturf;
there is no "attitude" in my post, I am sorry if you inferred one. I totally agree that there is no issue whatsoever. All my posts are intended to do is to get people to educate themselves about this topic. The more people learn about plants metabolisms, and the ACCURATE information about soil ecology, the better they will be at whatever route they take.
there is definately more of a "green" movement happening.. that is wonderful..but people still need to educate themselves about plants, and thier needs. Remember.. just becuase something is "organic" or natural does NOT mean it is safe....or even beneficial...

As for this "attitude" being the reason people shy away from this forum.... not true.. I have just recently stared posting here to try and get some discussions going, becuase the forum was VERY INACTIVE.....

yard pro,

I agree, no attitude in your post!

I agree , just because it's organic, does NOT mean it's safe, BUT ALSO, just because it's sythetic, does NOT mean it's harmful either! Too many people using this forum in the past wouldn't accept this statement, creating an attitude, so some people like me, seldom visit here!

They cann't accept that both synthetic and organic is good for the plants, soil and evironment, BUT YOU still have to be carefull about which product, rate and timing when making applications!

Soil test a must, you have to have the correct soil chemistry! Must look at base saturations!

I will agree, Ca is overlook!

[YardPro]

sorry.. i misunderstood your previous statement.

I agree 100% with what you have said, and from your sig line sounds like you know your stuff.. please chime in if I am giving out any bad info....

[muddstopper]

yard pro,

I agree, no attitude in your post!

I agree , just because it's organic, does NOT mean it's safe, BUT ALSO, just because it's sythetic, does NOT mean it's harmful either! Too many people using this forum in the past wouldn't accept this statement, creating an attitude, so some people like me, seldom visit here!

They cann't accept that both synthetic and organic is good for the plants, soil and evironment, BUT YOU still have to be carefull about which product, rate and timing when making applications!

Soil test a must, you have to have the correct soil chemistry! Must look at base saturations!

I will agree, Ca is overlook!
Tim I agree 100%. Just because it is organic doesnot mean it is good for the soil. Even organics must be chosen based on their elemental content. Synthetics can be used in the place of organic materials to correct the soil chemisty. The synthetics can be easier to use, simply because you can more accurately measure the amounts of the element you are trying to use, where as with the organics, you get what you get, good or bad, to little or to much. The only way to build a healthy soil is to correct the chemistry of that soil. Base saturations play a big part, but base saturations are measured many different ways, and not all ways give the same measurements of nutrients. Many soil models are used to determine the correct amounts of materials to use based on the type of test used to measure the nutrients. Learning all of those models and testing methods is pretty much impractical, so one must choose one method and learn to work within that model. Once that method has been learned, one only need to apply the missing nutrients to obtain the correct soil chemisty. Those nutrients can be synthetic or organic ,but accurate measurements are needed to insure the correct balance of nutrient levels to prevent tieup of other neccesary nutrients. Once the chemical balance is achieved, the physical structure of the soil will improve. The improvement of the soil structure will permit more water as well as oxygen to penetrate the soil, compaction will be reduced and the microbes will have an environment where they can thrive. Trying to correct the physical structure of the soil without improveing the chemical property of the soil will result in a soil that will return to its original state in a matter of days or weeks. Trying to improve the soil by simply adding biology to the soil will only result in more dead or dieing microbes in the soil. When the chemistry is corrected, everything else, (Physical and biological), will improve and so will the plant life trying to live on that soil. Which leads me back to my stance about the chemical and organic fertilizer companies promoteing NPK only to improve the soil. It simply doesnt work that way.

[dallen]

ACRES USA is a magazine that deals with organic agriculture. A flyer I received from them a few days ago mentions the "failure of mainstream agriculture", or something like that. My neighbors are pulling in 200+ bu/ac corn. 60 bu/ac beans. Archer Daniels Midland is the supermarket to the world. How the hell is agriculture failing? Can more people be fed with less production? When I read crap like this, it is easy to understand why the organic movement is doomed. It is not "us against them". Too many hippies smoked way too much dope at Woodstock. Chemicals are not killing us, they are keeping us alive! No wonder the organic yard care is a tough sell. It is simply a matter of attitude.

[quiet]

No wonder the organic yard care is a tough sell. It is simply a matter of attitude.

From the consumers standpoint it is also a matter of results. Professionals use all the tools at their disposal. Organic ferts, organic based ferts, synthetic-organic ferts, and synthetic ferts are all "tools" - we use these tools to develop beautiful, healthy lawns

Why limit yourself to one particular tool?

[timturf]

From the consumers standpoint it is also a matter of results. Professionals use all the tools at their disposal. Organic ferts, organic based ferts, synthetic-organic ferts, and synthetic ferts are all "tools" - we use these tools to develop beautiful, healthy lawns

Why limit yourself to one particular tool?

Can't agree more!!!!!

[EnviroTeam]

Hi guys, I am new to this forum and was quite excited when I saw the organic threads...all be it they are a bit thin as you say.

I Started a strictly organic lawn care company this spring, I was very excited about being part of the solution. Slowly over the course of the summer I got beat down. Although there seems to be interest in it out there, as you have said, people want instant results. I only got 4 lawns on organics and I told them all up front that I would like them to commit to 3 yrs strictly organic. They agreed but I had one crap out on me in August, her lawn wasn't bad either, I took soil samples to the lab added the amendments it required and things were going good, but she saw a few weeds and a brown spot and asked for weed and feed instead of her alfalfa fert for the august app. I reluctantly did so (and removed my 100% ORGANIC sign from her lawn) right after that she had an irrigation system installed, grass looks amazing and I suspect it is more the water than the weed and feed but she isn't sure.

Anyway, enough bitching I suppose, I am glad you few are here and maybe we can have something to get excited for again. A couple of the major cities near me have banned chemicals and pesticides, I am banking on it happening here too. When it does I will be ready!

we should really collaborate and see if we can develop a great advertising campaign / strategy and work out a concise pitch to give to our prospects.

Also, please share any exceptional resources that you have come across to further our organic, grass roots, (sorry, couldn't resist) education

good luck to you all and keep the faith! lol

ET

[EnviroTeam]

At the end of the day, this is all about marketing. Maybe the word "organic" is part of the problem. Dito for "natural". What does Average Joe Homeowner think of when he hears those words? I think of unbathed, dirty, smelly and ideological hippies of the late 60s and early 70s. No, I don't want an organic yeard, but I'm all for getting away from chemicals.

Unfortunately we have also discovered that the most common thing people think of when they hear the words "Organic" or "Natural" is too much freakin money!! People do want green, weed free lawns, and they also want to do the right thing, the tie breaker seems to be cost, they feel they are being penalized for giving a damn.

ET.

[YardPro]

enviroTeam.

when you say "A couple of the major cities near me have banned chemicals and pesticides"...

that is really an untrue statement.
organics are chemicals, and any organis solution that kills any weed or pest is a pesticide.

language used is a large part of the problem with organics. when you make a statement like that, most people will instantly think you are bsing them becuase there is no way for a city to ban ALL chemicals, etc.. they may limit them, or ban a few, but they will never ban them all....

what about termite treatements? or isect control ( roach and mosquito spray's, etc..)

[Prolawnservice]

I think language is one of the biggest problems educated applicators, trying to avoid synthetic chemicals, face. How do you best sum up your lawn program to a customer? People are very familiar with that words natural and organic, each person has a different opinion of what they mean in there own mind, whether its correct or not. The two words are being thrown at you more and more, becoming diluted, bent and twisted with terms like minded, based, approach, etc. Most governing bodies don't want you using the term safe.

What do you call a responsible lawn program?:confused:
I don't think there is an easy way to explain what you do with out explaining everything you use and do? Someone needs to establish rock solid unquestionable rules that we all can follow and say we perform within the guidelines of .....(good term for it)...... lawn care.

[EnviroTeam]

Well, as far as I have been led to understand, it is a ban on chemicals for residential lawn applications. That is why ever since it was implemented all of the Chem lawn and weed man outfits have been looking for business out in the rural areas. They aren't allowed to use their products in the urban areas anymore. That is a ban. As for organic products being chemicals, that is semantics. We realize that products can legally claim to be organic and programs can tout themselves as being organic based and yet still contain up to 85% synthetics and chemicals. As you know, however, there are more and more products that are 100% organic and contain no synthetics/chemicals. (again unless you want to argue semantics, as we know that every substance on earth has a chemical composition, but talking about N or talking about Dicambid (sp?) are two completely different things.

As for weed controls for turf areas, I haven't used any up to this point (except my weed hog puller) as I haven't found any that work. I am starting to see the value in very selective spot spraying though (thanks to this forum) and also even the use of a bridge program as I have a lawn that the people just stopped using anything after years of the previous owner using chemical weed control. It needs to be nuked and start over.

As for pest controls I have so far only used biologicals. i.e. nemetodes etc.

I am a mere baby in this field and have lots or room to learn and grow and many of you that are making these posts have incredibly vast amounts of knowledge that I value very highly. Thank you for taking the time to discuss these topics in this forum as it really does help the neofites.

ET

[cedarcroft]

regarding wording:

I am starting a separate company from my lawn and construction biz. the wording is going to be simple.
the name of the company
and underneath it will say:
"totally organic programs available"
and
"Bridge Programs Available"
in our literature it will state that we use no synthetic chemical pesticides or herbicides. it will explain our turf and tree programs and most importantly, it will outline the cultural practices and expectations of "going organic". I am by no means an expert on organics, but I understand the basic concepts and necessary practices to create a healthy environment for plants and grass to grow. educating the customer is very important and will help to attract and retain good customers.

[dallen]

The same word means different things to different people. If no one is wrong, then everybody is right. I hear the phrase "bridge products" often. I think, and I could be wrong here, that it may be impossible in a realistic sense to completely cross over to the other side when it comes to nitrogen. Cost, odor and material handling difficulties may be the limiting factors. I've been working on products that some have referred to as "bridge products". 50% minimum organic matter as poultry litter or some type of compost, enriched with Urea, ammonium sulfate, urea, potassium sulfate, iron sulfate and humic acid. The material will then be inpregnated with bacillusbacteria and mycorrizal fungi. Some people want minimum nutrient enrichment and other simply compare analysis, coverage and cost with Scotts' products. It will be interesting to see where this takes me.

[YardPro]

have not heard of that term, but i do like it a lot

[woodycrest]

well, its been a long time since i posted anything here, or even read anything.
i see the threads are the same as always...arguing definitions, and semantics, and science, and dope smoking hippies,what is a chemical...everything is a chemical, natural, organic...blah blah blah....

after several years of this forum being here, i thought maybe the discussions would have become a bit more 'proactive' towards HOW to maintain an 'organic' lawn. guess i was wrong,eh?

forget the organic/synthetic angle...best cultural practices is where its at.
proper watering being number one and 'proper' mowing a close second.
Beyond that, each property need to be 'treated' on an 'as required ' basis...

i figure ...if it aint broke, dont mess with it.
Overservicing is lawn is as bad as underservicing it.:canadaflag:

[YardPro]

you are absolutely right.

[dallen]

I got a good chuckle with that one. How correct. I guess if its not part of the solution, then it is part of the problem.

[timturf]

well, its been a long time since i posted anything here, or even read anything.
i see the threads are the same as always...arguing definitions, and semantics, and science, and dope smoking hippies,what is a chemical...everything is a chemical, natural, organic...blah blah blah....

after several years of this forum being here, i thought maybe the discussions would have become a bit more 'proactive' towards HOW to maintain an 'organic' lawn. guess i was wrong,eh?

forget the organic/synthetic angle...best cultural practices is where its at.] proper watering being number one and 'proper' mowing a close second.Beyond that, each property need to be 'treated' on an 'as required ' basis...

i figure ...if it aint broke, dont mess with it.
Overservicing is lawn is as bad as underservicing it.:canadaflag:

Can't agree more

but not sure which is worst, improper watering, or mowing

[Prolawnservice]

well, its been a long time since i posted anything here, or even read anything.
i see the threads are the same as always...arguing definitions, and semantics, and science, and dope smoking hippies,what is a chemical...everything is a chemical, natural, organic...blah blah blah....

after several years of this forum being here, i thought maybe the discussions would have become a bit more 'proactive' towards HOW to maintain an 'organic' lawn. guess i was wrong,eh?

forget the organic/synthetic angle...best cultural practices is where its at.
proper watering being number one and 'proper' mowing a close second.
Beyond that, each property need to be 'treated' on an 'as required ' basis...

i figure ...if it aint broke, dont mess with it.
Overservicing is lawn is as bad as underservicing it.:canadaflag:


I agree as well, however you do have to make a living. Best cultural practices don't make you any money.payup

[cedarcroft]

Best Cultural practices can make you money. set the customer up on a fert program and insist on taking over their irrigation service. there is HUGE money in servicing irrigation systems. set the clock the way you want it for optimum watering and service the system as needed and blowout at the end of the season. added value for the customer, added dollars for you.
I would be willing to bet you could make a living organically without even applying a single fertilizer app.
heres my theory:
compost top dress, seed in spring.
set up customer on yearly irrigation contract.
mulch/compost beds in may/june
spot treat weeds and crabgrass every 5-6 weeks mechanically and spot seed as needed
aerate and seed in late august and september
blow out irrigation system in october
winterize beds and turf with compost app in November

that could be made into a living. now add turf fertilizer and tree spray/fert and you can really do well.
thats my opinion.
But I am an optimist!!:)

[mrkosar]

you are an optimist. i don't know how many customers will pay for all that every year, but if you find them hold on to them.

i agree with woodycrest (?)...we need to quit bitching about chemicals versus organics, definitions, blah blah blah. majority of us in this forum get on it to learn and discuss different options on how to improve our services. we are hear to learn so we can make more dollar bills, not debate about what is what.

i am all for organic programs, but i believe there is a place for chemicals too. i had trouble with nematodes this year, and will be going back to pure chemical grub prevention next year. i will experiment on the side with natural products, but have learned to experiment thoroughly before offering it to your customers.

most customers don't want weeds...until green guardian or some company comes out with a natural (SAFE FOR CHILDREN AND PETS) alternative the only other way to please these customers is manually pulling every weed. until that is solved, and customers learn to be patient, chemicals will have to be used sparingly. oh yeah, like everyone else says....95% of the problems that occur are due to the customers poor cultural practices whether you use chemicals or a pure organic program. so educate them with every opportunity.

[EnviroTeam]

I had great success with the nemetodes. I hear that there are different qualities of them though and depends on which company you buy them from. I can't remember off hand which brand it was I got but they worked great !

As for the discussions here they are great we can all use the debate. It is a great way to keep you thinking.