Why not lowball the scrubs?

[casey]

Find it fascinating learning how LCO's operate in different areas.

Around here scrubs die a quick death. The spring growth, fall cleanups, or if they make it that far, the first big snowfall knocks off the pretenders pretty quickly.
Just wondering.
If you have top quality commercial equipment, years of experience, and dedication to you business, how can a scrub compete?

[AndrewLawn]

call me crazy,but when scrubs lowball aren't they hurting themselves anyway?If they're truly lowballing,they shouldn't be around long anyway.No reason to make their problem yours.By the way,this isn't meaning to sound harsh,if it is.:)

[Bassman]

I find it interesting that lowballing scrubs would have much of an impact, (if any), on most well run LCO's.
In my case, (and I suspect many others), I have built up a slow and steady, very loyal customer base. I am not only the contractor but a fairly good friend of my customers. Most of them have been through the low ball, here today, gone tomorrow, low quality service experience these individuals provide. They know I'm not the cheapest but carry liability insurance, provide exceptional quality maintenance and show up throughout the year like clock work.
I try to always converse on a fairly professional level/act and perform as any well run business person would do. Most people are not stupid and after their decision to take you on they do not want to lose you for the same ole same ole low ball operator that many have experienced in the past.
I think it's just a matter of slowly building and keeping good paying, appreciative customers and weeding out the riff raff as you build your clientele.
We are in the worst drought in history in Florida but last Friday I stopped to try and give another LCO an account that I could'nt take on, (really nice guy). He politely told me he was maxed with 50 accounts and offered to send me more biz if I could handle it. Just shows that the folks that are doing things right are not hurting, even in such a drought.

[GLM]

I have found that there is a market for scrubs here mowing all of the sand pit lawns. I sure don't want to do them. Also they are just hurting themselves low balling. If they do a really good job have good equiptment and are reliable then they can get a higher price. Who wants to work for less? I don't fear them at all there's plenty of work out there for them that I don't want. remember that the customers that you are looking for are SERVICE oriented and not PRICE oriented. If they get hung up on price move on let them deal with some scrub that mows when he feels like it and let their yard go down hill, then they will be looking for someone more professional.

[SLS]

Seems that GLM and Bassman have had the same experience in their areas that I've had in mine. In 2 years I've seen the business cards and flyers the lowballers leave on my clients doors and mailboxes. At first I was worried about losing some of them but soon found out that a majority of my customers have "been there...done that" over the years. I have not lost one customer yet because of a cheaper bid (knocking on wood).

After talking to them about the subject I've been enlightened to how much people value dependability and truthfulness...as important as a neat job to most of my folks. They realize that "loyality" works both ways...to the benefit of all. :)

They know that that the old saying is true..."You Get What You Pay For".

I have people calling me all the time because their "cheap" guy just disappeared. POOF!!!

Over time the riff raff clients seem to wind up with up with the scrubs...and their lawns prove it (usually a mile high and never trimmed)! :D

[joshua]

my 3rd year in business i picked up 2 accounts next to each other, and i was taking care of them as i normally do, and one day after cutting the 2nd lawn the lady called me up and decided that she was going to switch back to her old service(scrub). about 2 weeks went by and her lawn looked terrible, she called me back up and begged me to come back and start to take care of her again. i agreed and 2 years later i haven't had to worry about losing another yard that i cut once, the customers are hooked after 1 cut.
about the subject of dependiblity, i let my customers know that i will be at their homes every 5 days, rain or shine, unless thunderstorms, then 6 days. and i try to get to their homes within a hour and half of the time i cut it last week, if not i'm their about the exact same time, due to i start the same time and keep the same routes all year long. in the summer they know i cut way back and only cut it when it needs it.

[smburgess]

Casey...

A scrub can complete because he doesn't run a ligit business. A scrub doesn't carry liability insurance, doesn't report the money he's earned to the government, doesn't bother getting required licenses' (business, spraying, etc.) and pays their help under the table. A scrub can do good work, but because of the above items, they also put themselves into a position where they can "lowball" ligit businesses (not that they always do).

[HOMER]

I can't get over how ya'll have to cut way back in the summer! We're just getting cranked up in the summer when the weather gets hot.

I'm trying to get a minimum of $100.00 a month out of any new customers............and also changing that schedule to weekly or bi-weekly. I lost an account the other day to, I suppose, a lower priced guy. The yard was as good as any on the street and better than most. When I asked the customer to tell me why he was dropping me he just said he was making a change, never told me why. It was no biggie really, the next week I picked up 2 more at $100.00 each per month year round.

Just keep in mind, IMAGE IS EVERYTHING. Most scrubs lack this. Keep yours up and the work will be steady.

[awm]

as most know,i dont like labels ,scrub etc.
dont mean you cant useum i just think it says
things about the one using them.
as to ( scrub) work. they dont even try to do
what i try to do so why worry about them.
my work produces a slow but steady improvement in the
lawns looks and condition.i dont think thats what the
refered to people are trying to do.later

[Sean Adams]

Offer a reliable, respectable, affordable service and everything else will fall into place. The money will come. Competition is inevitable, regardless of what form it may take ("scrub", established legit pro, etc...) Worry about doing what you can do and what you say you are going to do and they will flock to you. It always works this way. It may take time, but it works.

Sean Adams
Visit www.lawncaresuccess.com for Free Information, Advice, Tips, Newsletters

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by casey
Why not lowball the scrubs?

No thanks, I'll pass.

[Randy Scott]

Great post for the new guy Sean! I'm so frickin' tired of all these crybabies complaining about "scrubs". Get over it for Gods sake. Price your work, give your estimates, and do your job. I am new to this business this year and I have turned down more mowing jobs than I have taken. I WILL NOT work for what some people will do the job for, it's that simple! I set my prices on what I need to and want to make! If someone else will do it for less, who am I to say they are a scrub or not. They have their numbers to meet and I have mine. There is no bargaining when I give my prices, they are final! If the other LCO does it for $3 less, than he gets the job, whatever! There is enough work out there to make money at! I keep more than busy and can turn work away if I feel it is not going to be beneficial to my business. Mulching, weeding, bed edging, installs, dethatches, aerates, shrub trimming, fert. and weed control,light landscaping, etc. I think some of you need to diversify a little and quit crying. Like I said, I am new to this and have alot to learn. To be totally honest, for me so far mowing is the least profitable and last on my list for concern. The add-ons are what makes me money. Mowing is merely a convenience to offer some customers. It is a lot harder work moving mulch all day and being on your hands and knees pulling weeds,defining bed edges and hauling away excess dirt, than sitting on a mower and trimming around trees all day. I know, i've been doing it all! The difference is nobody wants to do those things, they want to sit on their a$$ mowing lawns all day and then complain at night that a new "scrub" in the area took a job from them.
This is not intended for anyone in particular, because those people don't get it anyway! Just do your thing, forget about others, and most likely you will be successful, hopefully. There are people that do poor quality of work and charge little for services in all walks of life. That is their right to do so. If you think that makes them a lowballer or a scrub, that's your opinion. But if you don't think the rest of the world has to deal with this type of business, your fooling yourself. Maybe the next time you buy milk, or gas, or toothpaste and K-Mart is cheaper than Wal-Mart, you could come on here and bit@# about that lowballing K-Mart! Oh wait, you probably purchased from the cheaper of the two. There are accounts I did not get this year and the LCO's that did get it are doing a good job from what I see. So why is that? Maybe they are content working for a little less than me, I don't know why they got it and I didn't. Should I assume they are lowballers and that's why? The lawn looks good to me! So what is the reason. I don't have the answers and I know I won't get them. I do what I have to to make ends meet. If my plans change or I need to diversify, so be it. It's called running a business and survival.

[CSRA Landscaping]

Originally posted by HOMER
Just keep in mind, IMAGE IS EVERYTHING. Most scrubs lack this. Keep yours up and the work will be steady.

You said it, Homer!!

[casey]

"Image is everyting"???

...and I allways thought good work and dependability set me apart from a "scrub".
If some guy in a beater with crappy equipment who doesn't pay insurance can take jobs away from me I salute him 'cause he's really got to be working his ass off.

[CSRA Landscaping]

Casey, are you just fond of confrontation on LS? Here's the thing: you gotta think like a homeowner, business owner, etc. I can tell you from experience that your image counts for the large part of the first impression with folks. The key here is to work with one another, not to practice one-upsmanship on each other.

And as far as lowballing scrubs goes, how low are you going to go to put each push mower in the back of a beater busines sout of business? I think you'll be eating a lot of Ramen noodles. But I wish you the best of luck.

[lee b]

I wuz hoping this here "scrub" thing would die out, looks like some people are determined to worry theirselves to death over what-ifs and could-have-beens. I would really like to know how many LCO's on this forum have really lost any significant business to so-called "scrubs" verus lost business due to some problem of their own creation? Most clients; if satisfied with your work, ain't gonna drop a dependable service to save a couple of bucks. If your losing very many clients and find the need to blame someone, I suggest you go to a mirror and point your finger at whoever is looking back at you.:blob3:

[CSRA Landscaping]

Well said Lee. Where is Douglas, anyway?

[1MajorTom]

We have lost one customer (a commercial one) because someone came in and gave a cheaper price. We also have lost a few customers when we were told that the customers nephew or grandson had just finished college and would be back for the summer, so they would have them do it. We also lost an apartment complex when the owner told us he was going to start cutting it to save money. We saw him doing it this season on his tractor.

We also have gone on bids many times and were told that we were a lot higher than their current service but their current service wasn't dependable. Sometimes they still chose to go with us even though the price was higher, sometimes they didn't. If they didn't go with us, no big deal. Just moved on.

All areas are not the same. So far there is enough work for us around here to not worry about the low price lawn services.

[darryl gesner]

Well, I guess I'm a scrub by the definition on this board, so I thought I'd give my 2 cents. My primary mower is a 21 White Outdoor push mower in the back of an 85 Chevy Pick-up with a Ryobi weed wacker next to it. I don't even use a ramp to load the mower on the truck - just heave it up there. I also have a John Deere compact utility tractor with a brush mower, loader and backhoe. I don't bother to trailer it, just run it down the road to my job sites. Most of my customers are either friends, neighbors, or friends of neighbors. I don't need a license for mowing and small landscaping jobs here in CT, and I don't need tax ID numbers or to pay workman's comp. or unemployment insurance by law because I don't have any employees, and I don't re-sale materials. In fact, OSHA doesn't even apply to me. Hey, don't blame me for that guys! In fact, I don't have business cards, a pager, or a cell phone and there's no phone number on my truck. These facts by no way should earn me a label as a SCRUB. In fact I am 100% legitimate BY LAW and am told by my customers that their lawns look better than when some so-called "legitimate" landscaping company did the work. I do good work, and in fact the reason people hire me, so I'm told, is because the big companies are not reliable - they don't show up sometimes until the grass is knee high and then want to charge extra, then come back again in 4 days when the grass has hardly grown, and they miss all those nooks and crannies when they zip around on their 72 inch ZTR scalping and ripping up turf in a cloud of dust.

Here's what I have invested in order to go into the landscaping business. $14 for a spare mower blade. I already had everything else I needed, paid for in cash, and probably have more in equipment inventory than many of you so called "legimitate" guys (at least $25,000 - market value). Why do I have all this equipment - because it was cheaper to buy everything than having a landscape professional do the work on my property.

Besides mowing, I also do landscaping in the form of brush and tree removal, spring clean-up, reclaiming reglected areas, dump runs, spreading stone, grading driveways, mulching, and stump removal. I do them all well and every customer has been DELIGHTED, not just satisfied.

I welcome your replies.

Darryl

[Scraper]

Darryl...do you have another brother named Darryl?

$25k in equipment? White must have risen there prices since I last looked.

[Sean Adams]

I think everyone here is right in their own way. Image is important for some clients, and to some it is meaningless. Others are price, and nothing else. Yes, its true, some "pros" could easily be considered scrub-like due to the ways they handle situations and clients at times, regardless of how long they have been in business or how many accounts they have, etc... But hopefully that is far and few between. I think the important thing is quality and reliability. You cannot dictate the economy. If people don't want to pay or just can't pay, then so be it. If they prefer someone like Darryl who operates a one-man show, that is fine too. Darryl probably does respectable work, and maybe he has less headaches than most. There is so much work, so many possibilities for everyone, no matter how saturated an area may seem. Your ability to stand out from others no matter how you do it is what will keep them coming back in flocks year after year.

[Eric ELM]

Darryl and all the other members:
The owner of this site (Chuck Keough) doesn't like that 4 letter word that starts with (S) used on this forum. I wish everyone would just forget about this subject and move on. They will always be out there and not just in lawn work, but every trade there is. We have all fit that catagory at one time since we all started out at the bottom.

Scraper:
I guess you missed the sentence about the JD Compact tractor in his post. ;)

[darryl gesner]

Scraper - No I don't have anyother brother named Darryl, their names and Doug and Dwight. Yes, 25K. The retail list for it, without the brush mower, was $26,800 in 1999, and it still has under 250 hours on it. Although old, my truck is in perfect mechancial conditon and only has 73,000 miles on it. The plow that came with it looked like it was never even mounted. All my hand tools are the best quality I could find, you know, the lifetime gurantee stuff, and I run only husquvarna chain saws.

Eric hit the nail on the head. Yes, I'm just starting out, and in fact I'm working on going through all the paperwork right now, including getting a license. The bottom line though is that as long as I declare my income, there's nothing illegal about what I'm doing, and categorically labeling people is just plain wrong. The reason I'm getting a license is that right now I can't legally do landscaping jobs over $200, so I don't. Mostly what I've been doing is homewoner assistance type work, you know doing the stuff they can't. The funny thing is that I had more accounts when I was 14 years old and pulling the family push mower around town behind my bicycle.

I do not try to take accounts away from the "legimitate landscapers". In fact, I was referred to a retired attorney by one of my customers and met with him last Friday. The attorney currently has a well respected full service landscaping and nursery operation under contract for his lawn maintenace but is dissatisfied with them. Why, because he only wants his lawn cut twice per month and they keep saying O.K., but then show up weekly and bill him. They entirely ignore his front sidewalk and gate area, looks like it hasn't been trimmed in years. I drove to his direct waterfront beach house in an exclusive area of town, driving by at least a half dozen landscaping crews manicuring lawns, their eyes all following my beat- up blue Chevy with the push mower in back. Based on the glowing recommendation he got from his frend, he offered me the mowing contract without even asking how much I would charge. But he's only paying $33 per mow now and I would have charged him at least $25. I told him that it seemed like a good price and other than missing a couple of spots, it looked like they were doing a good job. I suggested that he stay with them but tell why he is dissasfied with them, and they would almost certainly trim the missed area if he just asks. The result, they keep their contract and I'm going back to cut his hedges and remove a flower bed on Wednesday, things he usually does himself.

So why did I turn down the job? Simple, I knew I was out of my league and I didn't want to step on the toes of the other company, who in my eyes was doing a competent job at a fair price. What I lost in potential work I gained in trust and respect. Isn't that what it's really all about.

Well, gotta guy to Sears to look for a new mower :).

Darryl

[scottb]

You tell'em Darryl.

[CSRA Landscaping]

Darryl, Man you are something else. Are you a 50-some-odd year old powerhouse, too, like Eric? :D Here's the rub, there's the exception to every rule. I wasn't talking about folks that are starting out, been there, done that. I guess I did ok work but probably not as good as yours. When I made my previous post about pushers in the backs of pickups, I was referencing folks that have been around for a long time that come in and under-cut somebody just to get the business. I was not talking about starters or folks that do good work and want to stay small, etc. There are large companies that my definition could apply to, I guess I wasn't thinking about what I was saying at the time and just let diarrhea spill out all over the keyboard. :( So, Chuck, Eric, Darryl, all:

Please accept my apology for exacerbating the situation.

[bobbygedd]

WELL, IVE come to learn that, the "proffessional' companies in my area r scrubs and lowballers themselves. i recently picked up a couple of jobs and here is what i learned: the big companies need employees to work at thier major accounts, wich are like 2 day jobs, the rest of the time, in order to keep thier employees working, they lowball the hell out of residentail work, $15-$18 a pop, just so they can keep thier guys working so they can make thier gravy on the two days. how can u compete with newbies, big companies, and small operations at these prices?

[darryl gesner]

Jeff - Apology accepted, but I was just getting started, and now you've dispersed the situation and ruined my fun. Now I'm gonna have to find something else to do! I think I'll go out with a magic marker and put my name and phone number on my truck.


Darryl

[CSRA Landscaping]

Darryl,
Don't waste your time. Use spray paint instead. :D
Gives you a more 'refined' look. LOL To look at my truck, you wouldn't think much. I know it's not a shiny one like Homer's. Maybe I'll post pics of it some time.

At any rate, if I haven't welcomed you already, please allow me to do so. I hope that you will bounce your ideas hard off of knuckleheads like myself often;) .

Bobby, try prayer. :)

[Mid Rivers]

I found a new way to help the SCR_ _ 's out. I lost a job to a high school kid that bid half what my bid was. Turns out he is mowing half the place half the time. I turned the company in to City Hall for not having the grounds kept up to code. I think when it warms up the kid will quit mowing for the peanuts he is getting now.:blob3:

Eric, What is the 4 letter word that starts with "S"?:D

[Greenkeepers]

Do good work and don't worry about everyone else. If you can back up your work you will do fine and there is enough work out there for everyone...

[MJB]

The guys that irratate me are the ones who have 9-5 office jobs then mow lawns after hrs and weekends making an extra $2500 per month cash.

They don't have insurance, or a license, they don't collect sales tax, no overhead. Out here we have 3 or 4 like this with only 4 major lawn care companies. Small town... But these guys drive around in new trucks, new trailers, new lawn mowers, some ZTr even.

But at the end of the month you see them running from bank to bank cashing checks. While I haven't lost any accts to them, I have noticed that advertising for new accts has slowed way down, because they also advertise. Keep in mind these guys are professionals with their companies, but they have found a way to make easy cash. So their prices are cheaper less overhead. These guys have been doing this for 10 yrs so I guess they won't be going away like the scrubs do.

Anyone else see this happening?

[CSRA Landscaping]

Well, it's a free country is it not?

[cantoo]

MJB, you've pretty much described me, only I'm really bad, I make my wife do the mowing... Actually I decided to stay with my office job and she took over the cutting business. I now only do the spraying, fertilizing and repairs on weekends when I am home. The rest of the week she does all the work, she started it 8 years ago and we got bigger every year. We lost out big time on 2 days worth of commercial business when a local kid got his Dad to bid on all the Town work. He bid approximately 1/3 of the next highest bidder. This has caused big problems for the rest of us "legitimate" companies in the area. Everyone feels that we should match these prices. We were awarded some other Town work but I'm pretty sure next year we will lose it too. I took the safe road and stayed with my office job and security. On Tendered jobs it doesn't matter how good the work is you do, the dollar is what decides it.
PS of the 4 bidders we were the third highest so we would have missed it anyway. Last year we got the contract because we were $ .50 cheaper on a $400 a week job, that's how close it is.

[Lawn DOG]

I agree with smburgess's definition of a "scrub".

I wish Darryl all the luck when he goes legit.

I "Lawn GOD" was once a "scrub"(feel like i'm at a AA meeting).

Many years later I can now look down at the bottom feeders and say catch me if you can. I welcome the competition with open arms.
I think that no matter what we do or say in the green industry we must strive to provide the very best and if we are lucky we might even get to take a check home.

Are we having fun yet?:D

[Avery]

I would say you are living on borrowed time Darryl. Life will teach you many lessons in the years to come. What are you gonna do when that 21 incher flings a rock through the side window of a BMW and injures the passenger? Got that kinda cash on you? How about when you slice a fiber optic line with you back hoe? Starting to get kinda expensive dont'cha think? How about when the license inspector wants to see you applicators license and records? More $$$ out the window. I don't care what your equipment costs ( we got one mower in excess of 30K) if you don't carry full insurance and license you are living on borrowed time.

Just my $.02 worth.

[darryl gesner]

Avery - I must say I don't like your tone one bit. I find it to be obnoxious? You're typing to me like I'm an idiot. Well, I'm not. I'm quite familiar with working around subsurface utilities, I've hit plenty of them... water lines, electric lines, gas lines, underground tanks, and especially sewer lines! I doubt I'm going to hit any of thd putting down a fresh layer of crushed stone in a driveway. I'm also quite familiar with liability issues.

Listen, I just got started and the paperwork is all in progress. I just decided to get into this. I'm planning to be in busineess as of July 1 and it's in the hands of my attorney now. So excuse me for helping out a few friends and relatives by doing a little yard work.

And let me repeat, I don't need no stinking license in Connecticut for what I'm doing! Want me to e-mail you a copy of the laws?

Way to make a guy feel welcome dude!

Darryl

[CSRA Landscaping]

Darryl, I feel like you're better prepared then the majority of us already! :laugh: If I even think about talking to a lawyer right now I can feel my bank account begin to wither away to nothing! :(

Btw, how did the spray paint work? Or did you stick with the magic marker? :D

[Fantasy Lawns]

wow ....just a little rubbing going on ;->

[darryl gesner]

Jeff - Neither, all I could find was some sidewalk chalk. The kids and I lettered my truck up real nice with it. Even drew a push mower on the side. From what I hear on this board, the chalk lettering and logo should last the whole time I'm in business. I just hope none of the chalk flakes off and hits someone in the eye as I'm driving down the road.

Darryl

P.S. - Oh, and Avery, when the rock hits the BMW, I'm gonna run, because I don't need a ZTR under me in order to move.

[Avery]

Just trying to save you some heartache darryl. Did not mean to offend. Even a "little yard work" can bite you in the butt if you cause an injury or damage. I welcome all new guys and am known in my area for helping other. Heck I even stopped working on a job last week to help a competitor who had ran over and bust a irrigation control valve. Gave him all the parts he needed to fix it and helped him fix it! I could care less about your business license. That is between you and your state. Will not pretend to know the laws in your area. I do know however that you need to be insured and licensed to spray whereever you are. I would also add workmans comp. to that. To continue to operate w/o these no matter how small the jobs is like playing russian roulette. Sooner or later you are gonna lose.

If you don't like my advice please feel free to ignore me. I am sure lots of successfull LCO's do.

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by darryl gesner
You're typing to me like I'm an idiot. Well, I'm not. I'm quite familiar with working around subsurface utilities, I've hit plenty of them... water lines, electric lines, gas lines, underground tanks, and especially sewer lines!

Hummmm.......:confused: If you are familuar with working around them then why are you hitting "plenty" of them? I would either work on a technique that caused less damage or change something, this makes no sense?

[Avery]

I was going to point that out Kirby, but did not want to upset darryl anymore than he already is. Illustrates my point about insurance though...;)

[SLS]

:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:

Now I'm REALLY confused!

I must get some sleep...................

Hey Kirby! Hope the recuperation is going smoothly...the worm turns...........:)

[darryl gesner]

Guys, guys, guys. How can you know how NOT to hit a utility if you've never hit one? Sorry, guess my humor got past you guys. I hit them by poking a few thousand test borings in the ground during my days as an environmental consultant. They ain't always where they're supposed to be. However, no insurance was needed because I, of course, marked out the utilities in accordance with the law and they were either not marked at all or were marked improperly, making it the utility company's fault. Around here, they never mark out the sewer lines.

I know too much about pesicides to ever want to spray them, and I don't understand why anyone would spray pesticides all over someone else's lawn. Talk about liability!

Darryl

[darryl gesner]

ooops, that was supposed to say that I marked out the boring locations, not that I marked out the utilites.

Darryl

[SLS]

..you know, I'll never forget the time I was tilling a small flower bed along the side of a lady's house and before I knew it there was about 20 ft of telephone wire tangled up in the tines...funny thing is she was on the phone when it happened...long distance, naturally. :D


...ah, Sweet Memories of our youth.....

goodnight all....and

Peace! :)