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6'7 330
09-08-2006, 11:45 PM
I noticed Briggs has 24HP ELS engine. What's up with this engine, is it a Briggs, or a engine from the Mitsubishi or Daihatsu partnerships ?

TURF DOCTOR
09-08-2006, 11:47 PM
I think it'a a american vanguard

Envy Lawn Service
09-09-2006, 12:12 AM
I think it'a a american vanguard

To an extent yeah...
Lot's of the shops here have nicknames for them with vanguard as part of it...

Anyways, here is the deal and I hope I can explain it as well a second time as I did before (can't find the old post)....

Briggs makes a line of I/C and ELS engines. Both are represented on their website but not fully. As in they are not all on the site... not the best of them anyways...

These engines are what "I" call the TRUE Industrial/Commercial and Extended Life Series engines (I/C & ELS). On the outside these engines look pretty much like the I/C, ELS and Intek engines... except all I have ever seen them in is black...

The difference is in the quality of the build and the warranty. The best of the ELS engines carry a 1 year commercial warranty. The best of the I/C engines carry a 2 year commercial warranty. Either one is as good or better than the other brands in my opinion.

The bottom line is that while these engines may look like what you will find on a Lowes/Home Depot lawn tractor other than the color... they are NOT the same engines. Briggs builds these engines to Briggs specifications just for commercial applications. The Inteks and such on homeowner stuff is built to meet the specification of the engine buyer (Murray, MTD, AYP) and to meet their price point per engine on huge orders.

6'7 330
09-09-2006, 12:15 AM
Certainly a good price on the ELS, I see a 26hp..full pressure,V-Twin, 721.00$

HenryB
09-09-2006, 12:21 AM
The Vanguard are good engine's. Briggs' other engines are an embarrassment total garbage. Not trying to offend anyone but I've given them so many tries and always the same result garbage. Kohler, Kawy and Honda are great engines.JMO

TURF DOCTOR
09-09-2006, 12:26 AM
You stated els engine's carry a one year warranty is that the one on the new scag tiger cub carrying a two year warranty.

Envy Lawn Service
09-09-2006, 12:28 AM
Certainly a good price on the ELS, I see a 26hp..full pressure,V-Twin, 721.00$

Here's the catch though....

Which 'grade' ELS engine is it?
Commercial or cheapo homeowner?

The ONLY way to tell is to look at the paperwork and personally check the warranty.

At $721 I have to guess it's the one for a lawn tractor.
But I could be wrong....

Check into the warranty and see.
If it has the good commercial warranty, I recommend it, if not $721 still ain't bad if you are looking to re-power. I might buy that engine for a re-power situation... but otherwise, I ONLY buy machines with the Briggs with the 2 year Commercial warranty and they have been worth every penny.

ProStreetCamaro
09-09-2006, 12:28 AM
The Vanguard are good engine's. Briggs' other engines are an embarrassment total garbage. Not trying to offend anyone but I've given them so many tries and always the same result garbage. Kohler, Kawy and Honda are great engines.JMO

I couldnt agree more. My friend (who sells power equipment and a top notch tech) calls them "Briggs and Scrap Iron"

pugs
09-09-2006, 12:34 AM
If you look in a Briggs warranty statement the only engine that carries a 2 year commercial warranty is the Vanguard.

No ELS, No IC.:nono:

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/miscPDFs/272204.pdf

Envy Lawn Service
09-09-2006, 12:36 AM
You stated els engine's carry a one year warranty is that the one on the new scag tiger cub carrying a two year warranty.

Say what?... LOL...

Anyways, the point I was trying to make is that you have to check the warranty BEFORE you buy to be sure you are getting the good ones. Some have it on the engine itself, others do not and you have to look at the paperwork.

I buy the I/C engine with the 2 year warranty or the Vanguard.

But I would buy an ELS also. Some of those have a 1 year commercial warranty. Some have 2 year commercial warranty.

I'm not sure which ELS they put on that Scag, but I would hope it has the 2 year warranty. Would I buy that Scag if I were in the market? YES!!!

pugs
09-09-2006, 12:39 AM
The Vanguard are good engine's. Briggs' other engines are an embarrassment total garbage. Not trying to offend anyone but I've given them so many tries and always the same result garbage. Kohler, Kawy and Honda are great engines.JMO

Compare apples to apples. The Vangaurd you say is good. Well that is the only engine comparable to Kohler(not courage), Kawasaki, and Honda(GX series).

The other Briggs engines are not warrantied for 2 years of commercial use...so why would you expect them to last as long as an engine that is?

Envy Lawn Service
09-09-2006, 12:40 AM
If you look in a Briggs warranty statement the only engine that carries a 2 year commercial warranty is the Vanguard.

No ELS, No IC.:nono:

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/miscPDFs/272204.pdf

You don't have a clue what you are talking about...
You have arrived at your bus stop...
Do your homework and try again later.

pugs
09-09-2006, 12:42 AM
You don't have a clue what you are talking about...
You have arrived at your bus stop...
Do your homework and try again later.

Ok, well when you can post a document that refutes the document I just posted then you can talk. Until then, you have reached the end. This is your stop. Do your homework and try again later.

Oh and shut up and sit down.

Bring your more than 1 year old IC in for warranty work and see what happens.

Envy Lawn Service
09-09-2006, 12:49 AM
Ok, well when you can post a document that refutes the document I just posted then you can talk. Until then, you have reached the end. This is your stop. Do your homework and try again later.

Oh and shut up and sit down.

Bring your more than 1 year old IC in for warranty work and see what happens.

Look know-nothing...

I happen to have OWNED some of these engines and I still do today...

What did I just post up there??? Not on the Web... app specific.

Oh, and with the number of them I have owned over the last few years... YES I have had to have some in for warranty claims. Way less than Kohler and Kawasaki, but I've had some "in". No problems with parts, warranty, ect. Way better factory support than the K's.

pugs
09-09-2006, 12:53 AM
Look know-nothing...

I happen to have OWNED some of these engines and I still do today...

What did I just post up there??? Not on the Web... app specific.

Oh, and with the number of them I have owned over the last few years... YES I have had to have some in for warranty claims. Way less than Kohler and Kawasaki, but I've had some "in". No problems with parts, warranty, ect. Way better factory support than the K's.

And have you had them in after the 1 year mark? If they were covered you must have some stupid dealers down there.

Maybe you should open that link I posted and read it. NO BRIGGS ENGINE BESIDES VANGUARD HAS A 2 YEAR COMMERCIAL WARRANTY.

Guess what...we are a briggs dealer. Actually if memory serves I am a Master Service Tech for them. And that link I posted is basically the same warranty they have had for the last few years other than adding some new ones to the list. Scroll down the Commercial warranty column. You will only see the number 2 ONCE. Yah, that would be the Vanguard...

Are you getting this or do I need a Megaphone?

Now this is Briggs I am talking about. Not the manufacturer of the equipment picking up the remainder of the warranty. I have had this arguement with my Bobcat Rep. I showed him the Briggs warranty info and he called in to see what the deal is because they use a 20 and 26HP Briggs non Vangaurd engine and say the warranty is 2 years on the machine. Well they, NOT BRIGGS, pics up the 2nd year.

Envy Lawn Service
09-09-2006, 01:17 AM
And have you had them in after the 1 year mark? If they were covered you must have some stupid dealers down there.

Maybe you should open that link I posted and read it. NO BRIGGS ENGINE BESIDES VANGUARD HAS A 2 YEAR COMMERCIAL WARRANTY.

Guess what...we are a briggs dealer. Actually if memory serves I am a Master Service Tech for them. And that link I posted is basically the same warranty they have had for the last few years other than adding some new ones to the list. Scroll down the Commercial warranty column. You will only see the number 2 ONCE. Yah, that would be the Vanguard...

Are you getting this or do I need a Megaphone?

No, but you need glasses... I have said TWICE this is not online.

If you want web links, here's one for your enjoyment..
http://www.scag.com/tigercub24hp_briggs_els.html

YES I have had them in after the one year mark. No, this is nothing the dealer is stupid and doing himself. I always call Briggs and discuss anything that's going on before taking them in for anything... because if it is something minor or something stupid on my part I'll take care of it myself if it's not going to void my warranty. Anything else, THEY recommend me taking it in for warranty service.

I find this a good way to do things. That way I don't end up paying a dealer for something that is "my bag" or whatever. It works out really well for me. Here they have Briggs reps, and a lot of times one will come by to certify warranty coverage. Just depends on where you take it, what the repair is, or if there is any 'question' about the repair being covered.

To be perfectly honest with you Pugs, I had one instance where I called Briggs about an engine doing wierd. I took it in where I bought it, the dummy in the shop didn't know what the issue was, one thing lead to another (long story) and I ended up back with it, it was supposed to be 'all fixed' but was not.

Just about the time I figured out it was not, I came in only to have a message on my machine from Briggs tech support. I called the guy back and he explained to me that he was just doing a follow-up because he had documented the situation, but had never recieved a warranty claim for it and just wanted to make sure I was taken care of. I explained I was not, so he contacted the rep, who contacted the dealer's shop and me. The rep nipped the situation right in the bud. They did a TOTAL REPLACEMENT of a V-Twin engine that was nearing 2 years old... (19 or 20 months) ...and the issue with the engine was not a major major thing, the situation was just a cluster-F was all.

Overall, I've only had 3 ugly problems out of all the engines I have owned. One was WAY out of warranty (carb went bad), and the other two were the one above and one other, both of which were well over 1 year old, and both were fully covered (completely replaced) under warranty.

(The dummy who couldn't figure out my problem was a Master Service Tech too)

Envy Lawn Service
09-09-2006, 02:02 AM
Ok, well when you can post a document that refutes the document I just posted then you can talk. Until then, you have reached the end. This is your stop. Do your homework and try again later.

Oh and shut up and sit down.

Bring your more than 1 year old IC in for warranty work and see what happens.

OK pugs,

Mr. Knowitall Briggs Dealer and Master Service Technician, PhD...

You made me get up, hijack the wife's camera phone and go out to snap you a picture. Because if there is one thing I have learned, it's that there is not a whole lot a dealer can tell me about what I use in the field that I don't already know. Mostly just mechanical stuff because I don't have the service manual or have never ran into. As a dealer, you should keep that in mind for the customers you service. Not all of them know zero...

You seem about as knowledgeable about Briggs as the guy who couldn't figure out what the problem was with my engine and swore there was nothing wrong instead of just admitting he didn't know....

So take a look at this picture and then take your mis-information elsewhere.

TURF DOCTOR
09-09-2006, 06:30 PM
Who's eating crow.

pugs
09-09-2006, 07:03 PM
What model is that engine? What type of equipment is it on?

Steelratt
09-09-2006, 07:21 PM
What model is that engine? What type of equipment is it on?

Might be the sticker on a Scag Tiger Cub with the 24 hp ELS. I've looked at them a lot, and they have a 2 year commercial warranty on the engine. Possibly it's a scag-specific thing, as B&S warranty page, and it lists the ELS as 1 year. http://www.briggsandstratton.com/miscPDFs/272204.pdf

traman
09-09-2006, 07:31 PM
well am confused http://www.briggsandstratton.com/miscpdfs/RNT/Warranty_Engine.pdf this is off a nother site for briggs warranty is for 2006

pugs
09-09-2006, 08:56 PM
Well we are a Bobcat dealer and they started making a model with a 18HP non Vangaurd Briggs a few years back. Then they made it the 20HP...and they added a 26HP version for a while too. I think the 26 has gone. The 26 was an ELS...dunno what the 18/20 was. Briggs needs a few more stinkin models to keep track of...

Anyway I know Bobcat is covering the extra 1 year of warranty on the engine from what my distributor rep found out from his higher ups.

I doubt that picture is of an ELS engine because you can see IC on there. But I would like to know the model to find out more info.

Kohler gives a 3 year warranty on their Command Air cooled engines on Lincoln/Miller welders...but I think they state that in their warranty statement...although maybe not. I had one of those come in that got a new engine past 2 years old because the valves are 2 piece. The head of the valve seperated from the stem and then the piston did not exist anymore. At first I looked at it and thought they were gonna be SOL...My distributor did not even know about this 3 year deal but they did some checking and found its true.

I wanna find out the model and figure this out now because according to everything briggs gives its dealers the Vangaurd is the only 2 year commercial warranty engine. That would annoy me if Briggs cant even provide the info I should have about this.

Envy Lawn Service
09-10-2006, 02:19 AM
I doubt that picture is of an ELS engine because you can see IC on there.

Ummm... yuhuh... it IS and I/C.... a 'true' I/C is what I call them.
As in true commercial grade engine.

It's like an echo sound in my head though... didn't I already say that?
I sure did.

It's an I/C not a Vanguard, but just as good an engine, with just as good a warranty.
Same 2 year commercial warranty... but again I already said that.

I also said that I did not have any of the ELS engines, but that I would buy one with the right warranty at the right price. The one on the Scag I would buy, rather the warranty is one year or two on the engine... because the price is right on the unit, and there is ZERO reason not to give it a whirl.

I mean, it's just common sense for me. Even if the engine dropped dead the day the warranty expired... well enough is saved on the purchase price to cover a kawi or kolher or whatever to re-power.

Anyways, my point was, I said that I did not have an ELS like shown on the Scag.
So it was not hard to guess this is not a pic of an ELS...
But instead an I/C like I said I have good experience with.

Anyways, I'm tired of repeating myself.
I think I more than made the point I was trying to make and debunked the misconceptions.
And I think present and future readers will catch on here.

So I am done with the pete, re-pete thing and done with this thread.

So I'll leave you with this parting shot....
Bye now...

pugs
09-10-2006, 12:44 PM
Ummm... yuhuh... it IS and I/C.... a 'true' I/C is what I call them.
As in true commercial grade engine.

It's like an echo sound in my head though... didn't I already say that?
I sure did.

It's an I/C not a Vanguard, but just as good an engine, with just as good a warranty.
Same 2 year commercial warranty... but again I already said that.

I also said that I did not have any of the ELS engines, but that I would buy one with the right warranty at the right price. The one on the Scag I would buy, rather the warranty is one year or two on the engine... because the price is right on the unit, and there is ZERO reason not to give it a whirl.

I mean, it's just common sense for me. Even if the engine dropped dead the day the warranty expired... well enough is saved on the purchase price to cover a kawi or kolher or whatever to re-power.

Anyways, my point was, I said that I did not have an ELS like shown on the Scag.
So it was not hard to guess this is not a pic of an ELS...
But instead an I/C like I said I have good experience with.

Anyways, I'm tired of repeating myself.
I think I more than made the point I was trying to make and debunked the misconceptions.
And I think present and future readers will catch on here.

So I am done with the pete, re-pete thing and done with this thread.

So I'll leave you with this parting shot....
Bye now...

But what model is the engine? From the look of that tag it appears to be an old Flat head...

Ramairfreak98ss
02-13-2007, 12:36 PM
lol envy :clapping:


Im supprised that the ELS are as good as they are, when i started looking at the new Ferris 500z, im like wtf, consumer grade motor? no vangaurd .... it "looks" like an elchepo home depot motor but its not.

pugs
02-13-2007, 03:16 PM
I have yet to find what model engine this is. And Briggs has yet to change their current warranty statement as far as any 2 year commercial warranty besides Vangaurd engines.

Envy Lawn Service
02-13-2007, 03:18 PM
lol envy :clapping:


Im supprised that the ELS are as good as they are, when i started looking at the new Ferris 500z, im like wtf, consumer grade motor? no vangaurd .... it "looks" like an elchepo home depot motor but its not.

Yeah, the one on that unit is this motor.

http://www.ferrisindustries.com/images/a50eng.jpg

Which has yet another small variation in the shroud style and air cleaner.
Honestly, that's possibly honestly the 26hp version with a 24hp sticker....

That's another thing I like about Briggs... sometimes you get more than what the sticker says because it's cheaper to make ONE run of engines that all meet or exceed the HP advertised than it is to make a 24hp, 25hp & 26hp.

I spent all of 2006 and thus far into 2007 recommending the 26hp engine option on the Scag Tiger Cub... and I don't recall anyone I talked to going with the 19hp Kawasaki instead... and SO FAR, not one of those people have been back to complain about the engine or cuss me out for recommending it.