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vntgrcr
09-27-2006, 11:13 PM
Ok, I will try and make this as short as possible.
I have a 2003 CAT 257 that has been a good machine. This past spring it started ot tear the drive lugs off of one track. I replaced the track about a month ago to only have it start again after only 30 hours. I tried to negotiate with CAT and they wouldn't do a thing about it. So I started the process of trading it in on a new 257 and dealing with the pain in the ass salesman that I bought the 257 from, tried to buy a 305 and now the new machine. I constantly have to call him, there are constant unfulfilled promises and the straw that broke "my" back was that for the 3rd time in a week he had promised me the new machine for delivery on 9/28, would call me in the afternoon of the 27th. I waited until 3:30PM with no calls and I went to the Bobcat dealer,who is local, very helpful and wants Bobcat's market share back. He said he would match any deal CAT was offering and he did on a 190 track machine. The CAT was very basic, no AC, no "Bob-Tach", basically a bare bones machine with the very vulnerable undercarriage. I like the Bobcat set up and it does have the pilot controls which I have to have. I am going to pick up "a" machine tomorrow. I want to know what you guys think of the 190, 250 or the 300. Obviously very different machines, just trying to figure out if the extra $ is worth the jump in productivity. I am done with CAT. To much BS and not enough concern with the end user who is the backbone of the industry. Thanks for everyones opinions.

Canon Landscaping
09-27-2006, 11:28 PM
Bobcat is a great machine but if you are looking for a track machine take a look at the Deere ct 322

RockSet N' Grade
09-28-2006, 12:17 AM
You ask a loaded question about the "best machine". I can't help you with that, there are guys here that have more knowledge than I ever will on machine stats and performance, and I would defer to them.
What I do know, and what you are experiencing, is that if you do not have the support from service/sales, the best machine in the world will fail for you. Balance the equation by talking with guys that own bobcat,case, gehl, and others in your area and see what their experience has been when they have been in need.....and then start demo-ing different machines before you pull the trigger....you will find out alot about support and the staff at a company just through the demo process, plus it will give you exposure to different equipment to help you in your decision.

ksss
09-28-2006, 12:27 AM
I really have nothing positive to say about the T190. I have rented them and demoed them and I think they are under powered, hydrualic noise is terrible, they are loud, and with the AHC controls they are fatiguing to run do to the feedback in the sticks. I ran a T-250 at a customer clinic this winter in AZ for CASE. The 250 is twice the machine the 190 is. I have not run a 300. There has been talk about the durability of the bobcat drive motors and whether or not that has been corrected. Given the choice among the Bobcat line I think the 250 strikes a nice balance between size and hp. You may want to demo as many tracked machines as you have dealers for in your area. I know speaking for myself I would like to hear what you think of the various machines coming from a CAT. Anyone looking at a CAT tracked machine should go to Iron Planet and look at what some of those tracked machines look like after running less than or right at 1000 hours. I realize we don't know what they did for a living, but I think it continues to demonstrate that the CAT undercarriage does not take abuse very well. Some guys may argue they flat don't wear well in any environment. The next kicker is high depreciation rate of those machines. They are expensive to buy, expensive to run and not worth much at trade in. They do things that the nonsuspended units don't do well (nice ride, quiet running) but man you better be making money with them because they are going to cost you to run them.

Scag48
09-28-2006, 03:01 AM
T190 does not have actual pilots that I know of unless they finally released them. The system is electric over hydraulic. I ran a K series S300 with hand controls set up the same way as Cat skid controls on it and I hated them, no feedback in the sticks whatsoever.

vntgrcr
09-28-2006, 05:48 AM
The Bobcat does use the electric over hydraulic hand controls which I am a little concerned with. I do love the CAT style ones. I am seriously going to see what it will take to get into the 300 as opposed to the 190. I am in a bind due to the fact that I can't use the CAT with the track going south, and I have work to do. I appreciate the comment about the support you get from the dealer. There is a lot of yellow machinery around here, but I have not heard many good things about support on any level. Bobcat is the best supported in this area. I will keep you guys posted, since what ever I decide I will be working with some kind of machine today!

dozerman21
09-28-2006, 08:44 AM
Like the guys were saying, dealer support makes a huge difference. It sounds like your Cat dealer won't give you the time of the day. The local Cat dealer around here seems to be pretty good to work with, from what I've heard/read. I personally don't like Cat's undercarriage, AT ALL. It's way too expensive to replace and I don't think they generally lasts as long as the rigid tracks. I would go with Bobcat between the two. I had a T-300 that I traded in for a Deere CT 332 this spring. The Bobcat overall is a good machine, but I never cared for the electric over hydraulic controls. I think they have good power and the tracks can usually go for 1200 hours if you take care of them. I got rid of mine mostly due to poor dealer support (salesman and service), parts breaking too soon (one of the lift/tilt motors went out at 500 hours), and IMO the Deere is just hands down a much stronger, better engineered machine. The Deere dealer here is also great to work with.

If I were you, I would demo several machines to see which one best fits your needs. Figure out which ones you like the best and add in which dealer you think will work with you the best, and go from there. Good Luck!:drinkup:

Scag48
09-28-2006, 01:56 PM
I honestly think tracked machines are overrated unless you're doing a lot of pushing and grading or work a lot in soft or sandy soils. Other than that, you're paying $15-20K more for a machine that does the same thing as a wheeled machine. You have to make up that cost difference in productivity and in "standard" soils or ideal conditions track loaders just don't produce much more per hour than a wheeled machine.

Fordsuvparts
09-28-2006, 07:33 PM
We changed over from a 2004 Cat 247B to a 2006 Bobcat T190 gold package and am very happy with the machine. We did like the controls on the Cat better but the tracks are terribly hard to keep in good shape and they are very very hard on the wallet.
Our service was terrible with cat and has been very good with bobcat over the last year. We bought in late oct. last year. We also traded our 302.5 mini in for a Bobcat 430 mini exc at the same time so we got a very good deal and got a great trade on the cat equipment. Yellow steel and white steel work hard around here to get you in to there machine. we got several free demo's from bobcat (week long demo a couple of times)and cat wanted us to pay to rent it instead.

ksss
09-28-2006, 09:13 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens if CAT fulfills the rumors of going to E/H in their C series. It surprises me to hear that many are not happy with the Bobcat E/H system. I think compared to the Bobcat AHC system it is hands down better. I spent about 16 hours in a 220 with E/H last fall before buying a 440. Once I got used to it I kinda liked it. Like Scag said there is no feel to it, but I don't think you get much feel from anyones pilot system. Certainly not the level I am used to in the CASE machines, but the trade off is more effort in the controls. I am not sure E/H is quite ready for prime time. It will be interesting to see if CAT releases new technology that will make their system superior to the Bobcat E/H system. Should they be only able to duplicate the Bobcat system, they might make more people unhappy than happy.

Mjh Excavating
09-28-2006, 09:38 PM
Never posted on here before, just do alot of reading. Interesting to see that how CAT small equipment treats some people. Was in the market for new machine last fall. I stopped at CAT dealer twice and not one salesman was interested in talking to me. Drove to Bobcat dealer after second time and purchased T190 that day. Apparently unless your going to buy a D8 in my area they're not interested.

vntgrcr
09-28-2006, 10:09 PM
Glad to see I am not the only one that has been treated like sh#t from CAT. I went and bought the 190 today and went right to work with it. I have to say that it probably would have been better if I wasn't able to compare the E/H to the CAT controls. The CAT are better hands down. Lot's of delay, have to use the "snail" button for fine grading. Quality is off for a brand new machine. THe weather stripping is litterally falling off the door on the engine compartment, one of the AC vent controls fell right out and misc other things. I think I will get used to it. Working in the mud tomorrow so we shall see how she does. They get all the money for the machine though. Ended up matching what CAT was going to do for me. They took a bath on the trade in. Thanks for everyone's input/ opinions.

Mike33
09-28-2006, 11:55 PM
i agree with scag they are very pricey. i have a bobcat 185 and run steel tracks. We can remove them or put them on in normally 20 minutes and i bought mine in 2003 for around 2k. We run them most of time but when we are on pavement we remove them. I dont think the rubber tracks will get that good of mileage on pavement and are expensive to replace. Again every one has there own situation and location to deal with.
Mike

Scag48
09-29-2006, 12:20 AM
I'm absolutely sick and tired of guys saying Cat doesn't care about the little guy. Just because YOUR LOCAL DEALER doesn't give a d@mn about you doesn't mean Caterpillar itself doesn't tailor to the small guy. This is a DEALER problem, not a Caterpillar problem. If Caterpillar didn't want to sell small machines, they wouldn't make them, simple as that. I could got into a huge spiel about how I can't stand the local Deere dealer, but I know across the US the dealer support for Deere is way better than my local dealer so I just keep my mouth shut. That's all I gotta say.

KSSS, I think a guy could get used to the E/H controls over time. After running Cat for so long, getting on an S300 for 10 minutes in a gravel lot felt really strange with no feeling in the sticks.

ksss
09-29-2006, 02:13 AM
My first impression of the Bobcat control system was not good. It wasn't until I spent more time on it did I get more comfortable with it and actually came to like it. I have never said that about the Bobcat control system prior to the E/H controls. However, I don't think they have been all that well received across the country. During the prototype testing in AZ, the Bobcat really only scored well with me. I believe due to the fact I had demoed one recently prior to going to AZ. As I read about guy's comments on the bobcat E/H system, you don't hear a lot of positive comments. Conversely you never hear anyone buying a CAT skid steer because of power, breakout, or really any perfomance standard. What I hear and read the most is "I buy a CAT because its a CAT and I want to be a CAT customer" or "I like the control system". It is usually the later. The amazing thing is that its really a system that has a lot of room for refinement, but the light controls are attrac

ksss
09-29-2006, 02:36 AM
MY edit got messed up.

The light controls are attractive to a lot of customers. If CAT cant do better than Bobcat on the E/H controls they should just "dance with who they brought".

CAT service

Scag makes the point I have been trying to make for years on this forum. "Legendary CAT service" is only as good as the local dealer. Scag gets wrapped a little tight when CAT service gets beat up. I get excited when CAT is considered the gold standard of service at the exclusion of every one else in the industry. CAT has not patented quality service and they never will. The quality of service can be as varied as the name on the building regardless of what color they sell. It can also vary from year to year at the same dealer depending on who's running the show. I get treated very well at the local CASE dealership. Some guys don't have the same opinion at the same dealership. The term "quality service" is very ambigious and very relative.

Scag48
09-29-2006, 03:01 AM
You're totally right Kaiser, dealer support is almost on a personal level. Some guys have good luck, some don't, even at the same dealership.

I am not, however, saying that Caterpillar makes the best equipment in the business and their service is bulletproof everywhere, I know that just isn't true by hearing stories. But, I get really livid when guys say that Cat is only in it for D8's, mining equipment, 385's, the list goes on. If you have a bad experience with a dealership, don't blame the manufacturer and then go on to say that since the dealer was bad the machines are going to show the same defects. I've had bad experiences with other dealers but I don't bash the brand name because of poor service, I bash the dealer themselves.

With that said, after having spent some time in a 277B, I think the undercarriage system works well, however I was very dissapointed with the durability of the tracks. I took a couple chunks out of them in the short time we had the machine (100 hrs.). The suspension is a great idea, makes for a really nice ride and despite the infused track instead of imbedded steel I think the undercarriage design is a trade off. The steel imbedded tracks blow up after 1,000 hours and average lifespan of Cat's tracks isn't 1,400 like Cat claims, that's BS, but I'd wager you could get 1,000 with them. So, the only difference between steel imbedded tracks and Cat's infused tracks is the cost, because the lifespan is roughly the same. I think the cost difference would be within $2,000 and if you can get some extra productivity out of the suspension system or maybe a little piece of mind at the end of the day it might just be worth it.

Now this is all given that you NEED a tracked machine. I'm still a strong advocate for wheeled machines because they're way cheaper to operate in most situations. You'd really have to be throwing mud, steep terrain, sandy/soft soil, heavy grading, low PSI requirements at a tracked machine to make it viable for purchase. I think it's ridiculous when I read trade magazines how much the hype has gone up for CTL's in the last year or so, just ridiculous. Everyone plays them out to be the most revolutionary piece of equipment ever when they're really just a skid steer with rubber tracks thrown on them. And the non-suspended machines ride like hell, so there's another reason not to buy one :rolleyes:

AWJ Services
09-29-2006, 09:49 AM
The steel imbedded tracks blow up after 1,000 hours and average lifespan of Cat's tracks isn't 1,400 like Cat claims, that's BS, but I'd wager you could get 1,000 with them. So, the only difference between steel imbedded tracks and Cat's infused tracks is the cost, because the lifespan is roughly the same.

From real life experience I found that no matter which track the machine has the same customer using both machines will get similar service life out of either track.

I also have a Friend that has a TL126 machine with 2000 hours on his tracks.
They look like crap.
But the Takeuchi tracks are nothing more than a steel track skeleton with rubber coating were no rubber comes into contact with the steel rollers or sprockets.
If you removed the rubber they would still move the machine.

GreenMonster
09-29-2006, 10:41 AM
I honestly think tracked machines are overrated unless you're doing a lot of pushing and grading or work a lot in soft or sandy soils. Other than that, you're paying $15-20K more for a machine that does the same thing as a wheeled machine. You have to make up that cost difference in productivity and in "standard" soils or ideal conditions track loaders just don't produce much more per hour than a wheeled machine.

Don't forget about slopes. Now that we've gone to a track machine, we are able to work so much more efficiently on slopes than we could with tires. Actually, we're working on slopes that you couldn't even consider working on with tires. Also, although tracks still don't completely eliminate turf tearing, you sure can go a lot more places in an established landscape than you could with wheels.

Scag48
09-29-2006, 02:11 PM
Yeah, forgot about the slopes. I didn't do a whole lot of crawling up steep grades with our 277, but I was pushing good sized loads up a slope that a wheeled machine wouldn't do simply because of the loss of traction. But in this case a wheeled machine with steel tracks could do the same thing.

Gravel Rat
09-29-2006, 02:52 PM
Like I meantioned before Cat in B.C. is the same they are not interested in small equipment sales where as the other brands are.

As for tracks over wheels I would rather have a tracked machine I never tried a tracked skid but run wheeled skids and working on any kind of hill is a little nerving.

Driving a wheeled skid steer up some of the residential driveways is enough to make the front end bounce.

What really made me a beleiver in tracks is I spent alot of time running trackloader 963 it would go where the rubber tired backhoe couldn't.

Tigerotor77W
09-29-2006, 05:42 PM
I'm going to bring up Scag's point again: Cat is very interested in increasing its compact equipment sales. Why wouldn't it be? If "it" doesn't seem to have interest, is is absolutely not Caterpillar, Inc. itself that isn't interested; it's the dealers who aren't doing a good enough of a job.

vntgrcr
09-30-2006, 05:59 AM
I'm going to bring up Scag's point again: Cat is very interested in increasing its compact equipment sales. Why wouldn't it be? If "it" doesn't seem to have interest, is is absolutely not Caterpillar, Inc. itself that isn't interested; it's the dealers who aren't doing a good enough of a job.
Tiger and Scag,
I respect both of your opinionsl. And to a certain extent you are correct in your statements. But, Southworth/Milton is THE CAT distributor in the northeast. I tried to deal with a different salesman in my quest for a new 257 because I knew this guy was a problem from past experience. He is the only one for my territory and I was stuck with him. He represents CAT! Am I supposed to chase down his boss and tell him how dissatisfied I am with him? I already did this last year in my quest for an excavator. I told the salesman this time directly "just communicate with me and tell me what is going on", again all smoke and mirrors. Again, he represents CAT. I really didn't have any other options, I am trying to spend some big $ in my opinion and I am not going to go chasing this guy, his boss or anybody else. I am the customer, I expect a certain level of treatment. CAT didn't get it done and they havn't. They are not doing a good job in southeastern Massachusetts. And I am not the only one to have this opinion. I am frustrated because I really wanted the 257, but not if I have to go thru the level of frustration I did. I would be happy to talk to managemnet if they contacted me and discuss the problems we in the industry in my neck of the woods are having. It sure as hell seems like they arent interested in selling small equip. here.

dozerman21
09-30-2006, 08:32 AM
Scag- What's the problem with these guys venting about their poor service/treatment from Cat? The title of this thread is "Bobcat vs Cat". VNTGRCR has had many issues with Cat and he wanted info of other guys experiences with the two machines because he's going to be spending his hard earned money, and he wants dealer support AFTER he's bought the machine, as well as before.

VNTGRCR- I totally agree with you that the dealer is a representative of the manufacturer. In this case it happens to be Cat. I'm sure there are many guys out there who have had the same bad luck with Case Deere...etc., or in my case, Bobcat. Just as an automotive dealer represents a manufacturer, the same goes for equipment. The difference, is you have many options on a car or truck. With equipment, you usually only have one dealer in your area. If you try to go around that, you run into a big time hassle on warranty work or out of state taxes. Therefore, your local dealer IS part of the manufacturing company, in this case it's Cat.

Having said that, I think Cat builds great equipment overall. Hell, the have to, they're the biggest in the world! I also get bent out of shape though when Cat gets the label of being the gold standard of equipment. Many times, that label comes from guys who havn't even ran equipment, or at least not another brand. Cat, like EVERYONE else, has good dealers and bad. But they shouldn't get a free pass from criticitism. For the equipment that I run, which is mostly small dozers followed by skids/CTL's and backhoes, I will take a Case or Deere anyday for what Cat has to offer right now in those machines. But that's just my opinion. You have to go with what works for you.

As far as CTL's compared to skid's, this isn't even the the thread. The thread was someone who wanted to know other guys experiences with Bobcat and Cat. Since it was brought up, I think CTL's are worth the money. They both serve their purpose. There are a ton of other threads talking about the advantages of both. My fingers are getting tired!:drinkup:

iowacatman
09-30-2006, 09:42 AM
Hey guys, good thread

If you are constantly wearing the lugs on your 257B, it is because you are running constantly on a side hill. Track machines should run up and down a hill as much as possible.

Also, Bobcat around here is about $12,000 cheaper than a Cat.

I would certainly call your cat dealer and ask for management. Cat is very interested in your business. If there are a few people who are not, they would want to know about it. I sell everything from big iron to skids, and I try to treat everyone the same. Whether it is a $20,000 sale or a $500,000 sale. They are all important to me, and it should be that way for you.

AWJ Services
09-30-2006, 10:05 AM
Brand Loyalty is a funny thing.
It is kinda of like Love It will make you Blind.

I think if Cat opened up a grocery store that some guys would only shop there.:rolleyes:

A smart business man needs too look well past the name on the machine since it will be what he uses too generate income with long term.
A smart consumer also has too spend his money were it is wanted.

If a machine breaks and you cannot get it fixed it does not matter what anyone thinks but you since it is your coin.

Luckily I live in The Metro Atlanta area and we have all the colors represented well here.

Service has been an issue at every single one on an occasion.
I have heard complaints about all.


If you are constantly wearing the lugs on your 257B, it is because you are running constantly on a side hill. Track machines should run up and down a hill as much as possible.

Why buy a machine that will not tolerate normal everyday use.
Side hills are unavoidable.

If you have a 5 foot tall slope that is 100 foot long are you going too grade up and down or left and right?

Bobcat makes a good CTL .
I personally would purchase it before the Cat.
Good luck and keep us informed on your experiences with it.

My Takeuchi TL 140 has just hit 150 hours.
I love it and a wheeled machine was not even a consideration.

Tigerotor77W
09-30-2006, 02:12 PM
dozerman21, and to some extent AWJ, I'm not arguing that it isn't important to have open options -- that's the point of what I post here. I know that people have different ideas, and I respect those. I'm not going to and never will label or bash someone just because of a machine purchase that's not what I would have bought. Since I am brand loyal, I will try to push in one direction, but what equipment fanatic won't?

I want to write about what I feel, but I understand your side as well. It's hard for me to substantiate my thoughts because I know how difficult it is to say, "My dealer stinks but I love Cat." Even if you do love Cat, as I understand it, if the dealer stinks, you're still stuck with a product you really can't trust. So I guess I want to emphasize that it's not Cat that doesn't want the business, but rather, the dealer who doesn't show enough interest to keep you hooked.

I apologize for the unclarity in my original post... I don't mean to be intolerant of the other brand choices out there; I mean only to differentiate Cat and its dealer.

AWJ Services
09-30-2006, 04:09 PM
The fact is that Cat,Bobcat,John Deere,etc etc care nothing of us as a customer other than for profit.
Please do not fool your self thinking any different.

They are in it too make money.
The more you buy the more they do.

Cat is very interested in increasing its compact equipment sales. Why wouldn't it be? If "it" doesn't seem to have interest, is is absolutely not Caterpillar, Inc. itself that isn't interested; it's the dealers who aren't doing a good enough of a job.

This would also be true for most any equipment company.

But I see companies push consumers aside often when they are no longer profitable.
It is a numbers game.
Thats why they have limited warranties.
They have outlined what they will do as company by law for you as the consumer.

Since I am brand loyal, I will try to push in one direction, but what equipment fanatic won't?

I guess I am the exception.
I honestly have never had any major Company come too my house and recognize me as a consumer and I have never seen a major company come too any entity and say if you Buy my excavators from me I will not sell too your competition.

That is what Brand Loyalty represents too the big Iron Makers.
That is that you basically are saying that no matter what you sell me I will only buy from you.They can Monopolies there area .

Why?
I just do not understand why people think this way.
As a consumer I never will.
If a company is putting out a good product I will buy it.
If something better comes along I will buy it.

This post was not meant for anyone in particular just more so as a group as a whole .
I also am not criticizing this type of thinking just questioning it.

mrusk
09-30-2006, 06:27 PM
I get a kick out of guys saying cat doesn't give a rats about selling compact equipment especially to us 'little landscape companies'.

5 months ago i walked into my caterpillar dealer at 19 years old and said i was interested in a 246b. Before we talked about the machine/price they gave me a full tour of the entire place. Then we worked out some numbers, i said id think about it.

Over the next 3 weeks, the salesmen met me at my job sites twice before i signed the papers. Note i am 90 minutes away from my dealer. Then the salesmen came out to my job site a third time for me to sign the final papers on the machine. Thats service. The point i am trying to make is that i was just a kid and they gave me the time of day. The put in the effort to get my business.

After the sale, i made a comment to the salesmen about how happy i was that they acctually took me seriously even thought i was so young. He then chuckled and said ' do you know so and so" (He named the owner of a huge construction company) "Well he came in here when he was your age, and now owns about 60 peice of caterpillar equipment!"

Tigerotor77W
09-30-2006, 08:50 PM
AWJ, yes, Cat is in it for the money. At its roots, one might argue that is precisely what capitalism is all about. (I'm no economist, so I might not be able to argue that, but it serves as an introduction to my paragraph. :D) However, the people who work for Cat -- in general -- are not there now [i.e., still] because they feel Cat offers them the best possible combination of salary, benefits, and promotional abilities. Engineers start there because they are drown to a down-to-earth, powerful engineering name, and were attracted to the prestige of "I work for Caterpillar." (This is a separate issue.) But once people start working there, there's a huge amount of pleasure and honor that goes into every machine. They are sometimes a little bit blind to the customer's requirements, but that's why there are marketing professionals -- people who have started in the dealers or on the operation or maintenance side -- who are hired exactly for the purpose of their expertise and understanding of customers. They are the ones who take the customer's voice and really make it tangible for the engineers to do stuff; it's the managers' minds who implement cost reductions so the company's bottom line is still there. But I argue vehemently that cost-reduction and making a profit pale intensely to the power of the customer in most situations. The customer is held in high-esteem, and by no means does Caterpillar ignore him or her. Again, yes, there is the idea of cutting cost. But that doesn't mean that the customer's expectations are suddenly bottomed-out and the lean process gets full priority. While making a profit and benefiting/rewarding the shareholder is up there on the list of the CEOs, they know that ultimately, they succeed in that role if and only if they have a product that the customer will buy.

People are brand loyal for different reasons. Do you think that Cat wishes there were no brand loyalty? Of course they do, in certain regards! Every single manufacturer would have a larger piece of the pie if no one were loyal to Bobcat, whose owners are frequently repeat buyers. By saying I'm "brand loyal," I don't mean it in a purchasing sense. I've frequently acknowledged the superiority of other products to Cat and have done so here. I have, however, worked for Cat in the past, and can say that no engineer I've worked with feels that he or she can do his or her job well without the customer's input. I certainly don't mind that people buy other equipment. I also don't think that Cat always puts out the best. However, Cat does care about the little guy, but it's up to the dealer to show that. It's up to Cat to make sure the dealer stays on track, and it's up to the customer to tell Cat once the dealer goes off track.

I don't want this post to make people think I'm only going to suggest Cat equipment. Dealers are a huge part of the machine buying equation, so even if a machine is superior, the purchaser has to make sure he's really getting the best deal. When I bring up all these points of Cat's strengths and heritage, I bring it up in the sense that in general, that's how they operate. Certainly there are exceptions, which you all have found.

Gravel Rat
09-30-2006, 08:52 PM
For us in B.C. Finnings is the largest Western Canada dealer when they moved their head office out B.C. to Alberta and cut back on service trucks etc it just shows they are only interested in big operations like the oil fields.

You look at the used Cat excavators they have forsale 99% of it is 30 ton machines and 95% of it is all in Alberta.

The money is in the big stuff for Caterpillar the other brands know it so they give the smaller customers way better service.

The dealer isn't interested in the small guys when they take away the service men and tell you to truck the machine to them because they don't want to see you. They don't even train service men anymore for the B.C. market.

When you have places like Alberta and oil fields and oil business thats where the money is for Cat. Why would they even want to deal with a landscaper with a 6000lb mini excavator or a landscaper that wants a skid steer. When they can deal with big oil companies that spend billions of dollars on equipment. To send a service man out to fix a landscapers mini would cost them more money than its worth.

AWJ Services
09-30-2006, 09:48 PM
I actually at one time was very involved in the Automotive industry at the dealer level.

I was a liaison often times between our customers and the Manufacturer.

I know how they think.

I was told one time that the manufacturer knew there was a problem with a certain part of a car ,but the incidence was low enough that they would not continue too work at resolving the issue since most of the vehicles would soon be out of warranty.

A company cannot loose money and stay in Business.


Cat does care about the little guy, but it's up to the dealer to show that.

Actually no it is not.
The Dealer sells the product.They do not produce it.They cannot make decisions regarding what is and is not covered by warranty,cannot buy back defective equipment on Cats dime without their prior permission,Cannot lower the price below what Cat sets the cost of the machine,cannot get reimbursed for loaners without prior approval by Cat and I could go on and on.

This is the way it works.

The Dealer is just an outlet.It is up too Cat too control them.
Cat is in charge not the Dealer.

But as long as the dealer is selling Cat will not care bottom line.

Remember why the original poster started this thread?

I guess if he called Cats corporate headquarters they would have got someone right on it.:rolleyes:
They prob ally would go and pull the dealers license and remove several million dollars of inventory and lose millions of dollars a year.

They actually have the power too do this yet they chose not too.

Wonder why?

It is up too the manufacturer too support there product.They are the ones who issue the warranty and build the product not the dealer.

Thats a Fact.

Scag48
10-01-2006, 03:27 AM
The problem is that nobody has the balls to call coporate. I would if I had a serious problem that my dealer didn't want to help me solve.

Tigerotor77W
10-01-2006, 11:52 AM
AWJ, I respect your opinion and understand your points... at this point, though, I'm not sure we can convince the other that he is right, so I'm going to bow out of this one.

vntgrcr
10-01-2006, 04:37 PM
Alright, this has grown more than I ever expected! But, you guys have given me an idea. I am going to try and email CAT corporate and outline my issue's. I am a little hesitant to do this since it may cause the salesman to suffer professionaly. But my problem is with the salesman! If he had done what he said he would do I would be sending payments to CAT instead of Bobcat. After 3 days with the white machine, I would "prefer" the yellow one, but I have made a commitment and I will learn to live with the Bobcat and adapt to it's idiosyncracies. I look at it this way, I will have this machine for at least a couple of years and then re-evaluate where I am at. But, the salesman has dropped the ball on me since I first had dealings with him and he is the problem, not CAT. I have a feeling it will be difficult to contact corporate via email. I have not been impressed with the website in the past. Tiger- maybe you could email me privately with a address so that I could make someone aware of my concerns. Thanks guys.

Dirty Water
10-01-2006, 04:45 PM
I wish you would have taken a little more time to try out some other machines, Case and Deere especially.

Sorry your dissapointed with the Bobcat.

vntgrcr
10-01-2006, 04:53 PM
I was able to find a contact at the website and sent the following email. I could have worded some things differently, but left it short and sweet and we shall see. I have either just poked the Bee's nest with a stick or won't hear a word from them. Anyone taking bets?????
"To Whom It May Concern,
During the week of 9/15/06 I contacted the compact equipment salesman from Southworth Milton about trading my 257 for a new one. We made an agreement and he promised to deliver the machine on a certain date. This date passed 3 times as well as numerous phone calls that were not returned. I needed a new machine, and finally when the last deadline passed with no communication I contacted Bobcat, they had a machine in stock and the following day I had a new machine with no complications. I would have preferred a 257 but could not wait for the salesman, nor gamble about whether I was going to get a 257 in a timely manner. I have had problems with this salesman in the past and would be happy to discuss this if necessary. This is not the first time I have had issues with this individual professionally. He is a nice person, but seems to not take his commitments seriously. I am thinking that you would want to know if your people in the field are not catering to the end user, that would affect CAT reputation. Please feel free to contact me if you need more information."

Tigerotor77W
10-01-2006, 05:35 PM
It depends on whom you sent the email to... I'll try to follow up this week if I have time.

AWJ Services
10-01-2006, 06:18 PM
Alright, this has grown more than I ever expected! But, you guys have given me an idea. I am going to try and email CAT corporate and outline my issue's. I am a little hesitant to do this since it may cause the salesman to suffer professionaly. But my problem is with the salesman! If he had done what he said he would do I would be sending payments to CAT instead of Bobcat.

You should never be afraid too tell the truth.
The salesman may need a wake up call and this very well could be it.

AWJ, I respect your opinion and understand your points... at this point, though, I'm not sure we can convince the other that he is right, so I'm going to bow out of this one.

We are just on different sides of the coin thats all.
We both believe what we are saying.:)

No need too bow out though you give much needed information that most of us will never have access too without your posts.

Scag48
10-01-2006, 07:14 PM
You shouldn't be afraid of nailing your salesman for being a bum, that's the whole point. If I'm at work and not performing my manager would get on my @$$ about it and I work for minimum wage. No matter who you are, where you work, or how much you get paid, if you're not doing your job you should be penalized.

vntgrcr
10-01-2006, 07:37 PM
You shouldn't be afraid of nailing your salesman for being a bum, that's the whole point. If I'm at work and not performing my manager would get on my @$$ about it and I work for minimum wage. No matter who you are, where you work, or how much you get paid, if you're not doing your job you should be penalized.
I would want to know if I was doing something wrong, or someone was dissatisfied with my work. I don't think this guy gets it or cares. Like I said, I have been trying to work with him for over 2years, and nothing changes. That is why I tried to find someone else when I decided to buy the new machine. Welcome to slaes territories. I don't want to get into a confrontation with this guy, but it is my business that he was affecting and I will defend that at all costs.

ksss
10-01-2006, 07:53 PM
We all have a say with our buying power. You made a statement by buying a Bobcat as a prior CAT customer. I think it is a nice touch to send them (CAT)an email as to way that happened. However after that, who cares? As someone said, you might have tried some other machines before pulling so quickly on the Bobcat. You may have found a better fit. I would not loose any sleep over the CAT situation.

vntgrcr
10-01-2006, 08:01 PM
KSSS, I do wish I had had more time to demo machines. Unfortunately the undercarriage, new track I had put on the 257 needed work, and was basically unusable for pushing dirt, which I needed to do right away. Both the Bobcat and CAT guy knew this and it may have played against me. Oh well..........

iowacatman
10-02-2006, 10:35 AM
The Dealer is just an outlet.It is up too Cat too control them.
Cat is in charge not the Dealer.

But as long as the dealer is selling Cat will not care bottom line.


That is an ignorant statement. You have no idea what goes on in a dealer/OEM (original equipment manufacturer) relationship. You have no idea how much time is spent dicussing and implementing programs for customer satisfaction at the dealer level. You have no idea how much influence the dealer network has over the OEM. You have no idea how much repair is covered by the dealer (not the OEM) when the customer wants warranty.

OEM's do not control dealers. OEM's build the product, the dealer supports it. I stick to my original statement, if you are having difficulty with your machine and your rep, go to dealer management. They are interested in customer satisfaction, and if they are not, you need to go to a different dealer, even if it means considering a different brand. If your dealer is not interested in you and your business, they will cost you money.

iowacatman
10-02-2006, 10:42 AM
KSSS, I do wish I had had more time to demo machines. Unfortunately the undercarriage, new track I had put on the 257 needed work, and was basically unusable for pushing dirt, which I needed to do right away. Both the Bobcat and CAT guy knew this and it may have played against me. Oh well..........

I'd still call this guys boss and let him know what happened. If it were me, I'b be a little miffed that you called my boss, but I understand that you have to depend on me, and a little kick in the a** doesn't hurt once in a while.

AWJ Services
10-02-2006, 09:36 PM
OEM's do not control dealers

And you said my statement was Ignorant!


OEM's build the product, the dealer supports it.

So if the OEM stopped paying warranty claims the dealer would continue too fix them without being reimbursed?

I have been around this block.I understand the game.

mak landscape
10-05-2006, 11:04 PM
i have a bobcat 873 and i love it. great machine. i have a buddy with a cat 262 and i have run it and i think it is a good machin e as well. all depends on what dealer is closer and better service and parts oh and of course price.

Sunscaper
10-10-2006, 12:07 AM
Bobcat is hands down the best overall machine.

ksss
10-10-2006, 01:19 AM
Bobcat is the best overall machine? Damn I wish someone would have told me that 12 years ago before I purchased my last 16 CASE machines.:cry:

Scag48
10-10-2006, 04:29 AM
Bobcat is hands down the best overall machine.

Really? The space shuttle designed interior does nothing for my bottom line.