Aerating/Overseeding Help

[Pietro]

Okay so im not a moron and Im sure I can figure out how to get this done. Heres what im planning on doing......


Ive got 25 clients who want me to aerate/overseed their front lawns. I can rent the aerator from home cheapo for 65$ for the day.......I get good Jonathan Green seed for 43$ a 25lb bag.......im going to just walk behind the aerator and then use my spreader to overseed? Is it THAT easy? What are the tricks/best ways to get it done the right, best, and fastest way? Im thinking my partner and I can do all 25 in 1 day, starting at 7am. What do you think?


Also, what are you guys charging to do this? Ballpark figures of course.


Thanks! -Pete

[MarkintheGarden]

Okay so im not a moron and Im sure I can figure out how to get this done. Heres what im planning on doing......


Ive got 25 clients who want me to aerate/overseed their front lawns. I can rent the aerator from home cheapo for 65$ for the day.......I get good Jonathan Green seed for 43$ a 25lb bag.......im going to just walk behind the aerator and then use my spreader to overseed? Is it THAT easy? What are the tricks/best ways to get it done the right, best, and fastest way? Im thinking my partner and I can do all 25 in 1 day, starting at 7am. What do you think?

Also, what are you guys charging to do this? Ballpark figures of course.

Thanks! -Pete




If you and your partner can do all 25 in one day you are better men than I.

The only thing I know about aerating is it is great for the lawn and those machines are clumbsy.

I charge 70. for a 1/4 acre lot, 45. for an 1/8 acre lot

The seed you are using, is it good for both sun and shade lawns?

seed starter fertilizer the week before does help increase germination.

[Pietro]

yes, the mix is actually called "Sun Shade". Now I should do this towards the end of the season right? Aerate AFTER the last cutting week......I mean u dont cut the lawn after you over seed it......................right?

[MarkintheGarden]

yes, the mix is actually called "Sun Shade". Now I should do this towards the end of the season right? Aerate AFTER the last cutting week......I mean u dont cut the lawn after you over seed it......................right?


I think you do want to mow new grass! If the grass blades are tall enough to touch in wet conditions this will be a cause for turf grass diseases. I am overseeding and seeding bare spots now, I expect to mow these lawns a couple more times this season.

[dcgreenspro]

little late for the aerifying but you can probably get it in. I charge $22/m. You want to use the best seed possible and jonathan green ain't it. You want something that is 100% weed free and contains no crappy stuff like annual rye, poa triv. Aerating charges are nomally $10-13 depending on how hard it is going to be, how hilly. Hope this helps. Markinthegarden, I have no idea what you meant by "If the grass blades are tall enough to touch in wet conditions this will be the cause for turfgrass disease." No, it will not!

[DoetschOutdoor]

I have no idea what the weather is like in NJ right now but you might be okay if you get it all done this weekend. I hope that your 25 lawns are really really small because that might be alot for 1 aerator and 2 operators in a day. I did 12 average size lawns a few wkends ago and that was starting at 8am and not finishing till 8pm. IMO having 2 operators is a waste when aerating unless you have 2 aerators bc it will only take you a few mins to overseed these lawns after you've aerated.
For best results, you have to go at least 2 different ways on the lawns and pull good plugs. Watch out for sprinkler systems and an aerator will crack a sidewalk or driveway if you decide to get a little close to the concrete. Pretty much common sense when running these and dont plan on getting out of bed the next day bc aeration beats you up.

[MarkintheGarden]

Markinthegarden, I have no idea what you meant by "If the grass blades are tall enough to touch in wet conditions this will be the cause for turfgrass disease." No, it will not![/QUOTE]


Something I learned when I studied horticulture. Fungal pathogens are active in moist wet conditions, moisture is trapped between blades of grass when they get stuck together, creating an optimum invironment for the fungal pathogens.

This is why we have great results when we mow turfgrass at the minimum height for the species of turfgrass.

But hey, I will take your word for it and ignore what my professor taught and throw away my turfgrass science and management manual based on your post.:dancing:

[MarkintheGarden]

yes, the mix is actually called "Sun Shade". Now I should do this towards the end of the season right? Aerate AFTER the last cutting week......I mean u dont cut the lawn after you over seed it......................right?


According to Turfgrass science and management, by Robert Emmons, under post seeding care, he reccomends that seedling turfgrasses be mowed for the first time when they reach a height of 50% greater than the anticipated mowing height.

So if you mow cool weather grasses at 3 inches then the first mow of the seedlings should be at 6 inches. This is an exception to the top one third mowing rule that this author strongly reccomendeds.

[BSDeality]

According to Turfgrass science and management, by Robert Emmons, under post seeding care, he reccomends that seedling turfgrasses be mowed for the first time when they reach a height of 50% greater than the anticipated mowing height.

So if you mow cool weather grasses at 3 inches then the first mow of the seedlings should be at 6 inches. This is an exception to the top one third mowing rule that this author strongly reccomendeds.My turf professors @ uconn say otherwise. Cutting 3" off a new seedling is very stressful, we were instructed to mow when it reached the desired mowing height and mow it regularily. It will put more growth into the roots if you're taking it off the top.

[Pietro]

Well its a 2 man operation because were parters lol......we are getting just 1 aerator thou, one will aerate, the other will seed, then the next house we switch. Im going to be doing this service in like 2-3 weeks, this way its towards the end of the season.......and we wont lose cutting money! The fall has just started here, and the november days are just like the octobers.......cool and a nice dew on the ground in the am.

[BSDeality]

I would recommend getting two aerators. you will have to do double passes and its going to take longer than you think. seeding will take 1/15th of the time it will to aerate.

[joshua]

Turf Grass Science and Managnement by Robert Emmons pg.163 Mowing is necessary when the seedlings reach a height 50% taller than the height to which the grass will be cut. i had that same book in college, emmons must know something.

[BSDeality]

Turf Management For Golf Courses (second edition) by James Beard.

Postplant Turf Care, pg 284.

"Mowing should be started when the grass seedlings reach a height of 2-4 inches depending on the particular species involved. The cutting height generally is in the 2 to 3 inch range. The mowing frequency should follow the rule of thumb of removing no more than 40% of the leaf area at any one mowing."

I have Emmon's book also, but i refer more to my Turf Mgt. book.

[jeffinsgf]

According to Turfgrass science and management, by Robert Emmons, under post seeding care, he reccomends that seedling turfgrasses be mowed for the first time when they reach a height of 50% greater than the anticipated mowing height.

So if you mow cool weather grasses at 3 inches then the first mow of the seedlings should be at 6 inches. This is an exception to the top one third mowing rule that this author strongly reccomendeds.


Uh, try that math again. 50% more than the anticipated mowing height is 4.5 inches, not 6 inches (100% more than anticipated mowing height).

[MarkintheGarden]

Uh, try that math again. 50% more than the anticipated mowing height is 4.5 inches, not 6 inches (100% more than anticipated mowing height).


OK you caught me, Fuzzy Math, I never was good at math but I sure got confused on that one:dizzy: :dizzy:

So Emmons is reccomending the same cutting height for new grass as any turf, do not know why he chose to word it differently when talking about seedling?

[ACutAboveNC]

WOW...Cutting 2-3in is murder, at least in the south anyways. I cut at a minimum of 3.5 to 4 in all year long. And it is not to late to start aerating. Actually, it is about the perfect time to aerate. You are looking for soil temps in the 60s to 70s. That translates to air temps being around the same. TTTF is a COOL weather grass. That means it likes the cooler weather. Not the August and occassional September heat. You are ok to plant seed still. You will actually see better results now anyways. If you are looking for a solid seed look into Lesco seed. They have given me tremendous results and they are the best bang for my buck. And you should ALWAYS aerate at least twice if not three times in hard packed and bare areas. The point of aeration is not to put holes in the ground for the seed to sprout but to allow AIR into the soil. You will see much better results if you do so. BTW in bare areas look at using 8-10 lbs/m and in thick stands of grass 5-6lbs/m. Hope this is some helpful information to you.

[Dunn's]

According to Turfgrass science and management, by Robert Emmons, under post seeding care, he reccomends that seedling turfgrasses be mowed for the first time when they reach a height of 50% greater than the anticipated mowing height.

So if you mow cool weather grasses at 3 inches then the first mow of the seedlings should be at 6 inches. This is an exception to the top one third mowing rule that this author strongly reccomendeds.
Acording to what you wrote then you would cut the grass at 4 and a half inches not 6 inches because that would be 100% of the anticipated mowing height. sorry didn't mean to correct you but you counterdicted yourself.

[MarkintheGarden]

Acording to what you wrote then you would cut the grass at 4 and a half inches not 6 inches because that would be 100% of the anticipated mowing height. sorry didn't mean to correct you but you counterdicted yourself.

Yeah, I sure did, got pointed out already.

[dcgreenspro]

Markinthegarden, I have no idea what you meant by "If the grass blades are tall enough to touch in wet conditions this will be the cause for turfgrass disease." No, it will not!


Something I learned when I studied horticulture. Fungal pathogens are active in moist wet conditions, moisture is trapped between blades of grass when they get stuck together, creating an optimum invironment for the fungal pathogens.

This is why we have great results when we mow turfgrass at the minimum height for the species of turfgrass.

But hey, I will take your word for it and ignore what my professor taught and throw away my turfgrass science and management manual based on your post.:dancing:[/QUOTE]
Mark, Take that manual and read for disease pressure. It would tell you that only certain types of grasses are susceptible to certain diseases. It would also further tell you that diseases need the host, pathogen to be present and the right environment. Many people on this site throw around different disease names that are way off base and have not been identified correctly. The only thing that you will get with leaf blades trapped together is a lack of lite that is necessary for turfgrass germination. Also, pushing mowing heights is not the best thing to do to newly emerged grass. Letting it grow to an acceptable height and then getting it under your regulation mowing heights works very well. but hey, you studied horticulture, so you must be right.

[MarkintheGarden]

Something I learned when I studied horticulture. Fungal pathogens are active in moist wet conditions, moisture is trapped between blades of grass when they get stuck together, creating an optimum invironment for the fungal pathogens.

This is why we have great results when we mow turfgrass at the minimum height for the species of turfgrass.

But hey, I will take your word for it and ignore what my professor taught and throw away my turfgrass science and management manual based on your post.:dancing:
Mark, Take that manual and read for disease pressure. It would tell you that only certain types of grasses are susceptible to certain diseases. It would also further tell you that diseases need the host, pathogen to be present and the right environment. Many people on this site throw around different disease names that are way off base and have not been identified correctly. The only thing that you will get with leaf blades trapped together is a lack of lite that is necessary for turfgrass germination. Also, pushing mowing heights is not the best thing to do to newly emerged grass. Letting it grow to an acceptable height and then getting it under your regulation mowing heights works very well. but hey, you studied horticulture, so you must be right.[/QUOTE]

Not throwing around anything just passing on what I learned.
leaves trapped together do retain moisture, particularly the dew creating a good invironment for fungal pathogens, that yes must be present. Fungus happens.
I am not sure what you are saying about cutting seedling grass, are you saying you should let it grow taller than you normaly would? Would you let it get tall till it lays down and sticks together?

All I was saying is newly seeded turfgrass should get mowed. Do you think this is wrong?

[dcgreenspro]

of course it needs to be mowed but you didn't say that. You said that if left unmowed it will get infected by disease. no, it won't. After overseeding, i let it go for a couple of weeks to give the plant time to develop and grow. My first and second cuts are at a height taller than normal i.e.4-5 in. Reason for this is again to let the plant grow and establish. I use a nurse grass(rye) to help bring along my primary (tttf) and i find that after a couple of weeks these plants are still very small and underdeveloped. I back off again and let these plants grow untill they are almost fully established and then are fertilized with another round of earthworks. timing is of importance and all i was saying earlier is that you need to get these plants established and almost fully grown before winter to be able to give them a chance to survive.

[MarkintheGarden]

of course it needs to be mowed but you didn't say that.

I did say that in post #4.

You said that if left unmowed it will get infected by disease. no, it won't.

Yes it will, given time and too much hieght, neglected turfgrass is a ripe condition for many turfgrass diseases. This is mostly because of moisture retention due to contact between blades. Why do you keep disagreeing with this point? I have made the point and included my source of information, do not take that to mean I think I know it all. Please explain why mowing generates a good turf if it is not because of this reason?

After overseeding, i let it go for a couple of weeks to give the plant time to develop and grow. My first and second cuts are at a height taller than normal i.e.4-5 in. Reason for this is again to let the plant grow and establish. I use a nurse grass(rye) to help bring along my primary (tttf) and i find that after a couple of weeks these plants are still very small and underdeveloped. I back off again and let these plants grow untill they are almost fully established and then are fertilized with another round of earthworks. timing is of importance and all i was saying earlier is that you need to get these plants established and almost fully grown before winter to be able to give them a chance to survive.

I agree with you here, and the nurse grass rye is a good practice. You are also absolutely correct about getting the new grass established. Getting the new grass established seems to be both growth and cutting. New grass that does not get cut a couple times before winter does not seem to do as well as grass that has been mowed. The original poster in this thread was suggesting that he would not cut the new grass this year, and I was suggesting he should.

I am not always certain about the best mowing schedule for new grass. It seems to work well to let it get tall as you have suggested. I have had good results cutting new fescue at 6" down to 4.5". Blue grass seems to need to be cut sooner.

There are so many variables, I have seen newly seeded grass fail because it was overseeded too thickly, cut too soon, cut too short, neglected, left with heavy cuttings on top, cut with too large and heavy a mower, treated with broadleaf herbicide, given too much fertilizer.

[dcgreenspro]

marki, back to my original point of timing. If he overseeds now he won't be able to make a cut on it hence my reasoning for not needing to cut it. Please tell me what diseases you wqould have tyo look out for if you let new grass get to a certain length. I have made it abundantly clear that what the needs are for turfgrass disease to occur. You keep telling me, moisture retantion from dew will cause it? what diseases? If you need me to start quoting books or manuals, i don't need to. I have a turf management degree. I have dealt with more disease than a lot of people on this site. Identification and treatment aere all i would do where i worked.

[MarkintheGarden]

marki, back to my original point of timing. If he overseeds now he won't be able to make a cut on it hence my reasoning for not needing to cut it. Please tell me what diseases you wqould have tyo look out for if you let new grass get to a certain length. I have made it abundantly clear that what the needs are for turfgrass disease to occur. You keep telling me, moisture retantion from dew will cause it? what diseases? If you need me to start quoting books or manuals, i don't need to. I have a turf management degree. I have dealt with more disease than a lot of people on this site. Identification and treatment aere all i would do where i worked.


Perhaps I should re word this.
Water retention through tall grass that becomes stuck together is a prime condition for cultivating fungus. Dew is a great host for fungal pathogens, when the dew gets trapped between blades it increases the oppertunity for the pathogen to cultivate. Yes the pathogen must be present, the moisture is not a cause in and of it's self, rather a condition.

I think we are in part speaking about different regions and situations. If what I have said does not sound correct to you, all I can say it is what I think I was taught. I am certain the timming is different here, I planted grass today that I will mow at least once. Also I think fungus is a greater concern in my area, Missouri basin, so the advice might not be appropriate in NJ or PA.
I considered that when I first posted but thought that in any case he should mow his overseeded lawns before winter, did not realize it was already too late.

So should he overseed? I know I should!

[dcgreenspro]

in nj, i wouldn't. his results will be sub par at best. Creeping down in to the 30's last week and 30's this week end. any new plants that come up will be in for a long winter.