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mdvaden
11-24-2006, 09:10 PM
On various forum sites, I find it interesting to see how many members are online and how many visitors. Usually 3 times more visitors.

The other part, is where in the forums the most users are located. In Lawn Site, there are about 8 times more, or 800% more in the Lawn Mowing Section than in the Landscpaping section.

Maybe more guys mow lawns. But another idea came to mind - at least it's very applicable here in Oregon.

Oregon landscapers must pass tests, and many more landscape contractors have been to college, and have more experience than lawn mowing outfits.

That means that the landscape contractors - typically - have more knowledge and resources, and don't need quite as much assistance.

Whereas the mowing guys, have less, and would be landscape contractors if they had the extra education.

Not sure about your area, but in Oregon, that's fairly accurate.

There are several landscapers here that also provide lawn care, although their lawn employees are typically entry-level to minimal education except for supervisor / crew leader types.

brucec32
11-24-2006, 09:43 PM
I can think of one guy who "needs more help" with his grammar.

procut
11-24-2006, 11:33 PM
I dunno, I think mdvaden makes some good points. I can safely say that there are more guys who mow rather than actual landscape design and build. So since there are more people in that industry, it would make more sense that there is more activity in the mowing forum.

mdvaden
11-25-2006, 02:22 AM
I dunno, I think mdvaden makes some good points. I can safely say that there are more guys who mow rather than actual landscape design and build. So since there are more people in that industry, it would make more sense that there is more activity in the mowing forum.

There is one thing that's apparent, though, about the lawn forum - many of the questions deal with equipment and not horticulture.

On the other hand, there is equipment used in landscaping too.

But the proportionate difference between forums is notable.

Also, in Lawnsite in general, there is 1 registered user for about 4 visitors on the site - if 50 registered, then 200 visitors. That's 1 in 5.

On Arboristsite, there was about 1 registered user for every 3 visitors.

TURFLORD
11-25-2006, 06:37 AM
Mr. Vadens post sounds more like a carefully worded rip on lco's. The only point I can deduce from his associating this post with education, is egotism. What, exactly, was meant by "need help"?

lawnman_scott
11-25-2006, 07:33 AM
I think its just simple numbers. More guys who do maintenance than landscaping. If someone has a degree or something I would say they would be more likly to come to a forum because the internet is a great place to let everyone know how great you think you are.

YardPro
11-25-2006, 07:42 AM
vaden..

looks like you touched a nerve...

i agree with you. There is far less experience in general with mowing operators than with landscape contractors. there is a lot less investment and experience necessary to start a mowing company than an landscape construction company. Therefore there is a lot more competetion in the mowing area.

also i'll bet the average age of the guys in the mowing sections is about 21 at the most. There are a lot that are still teenagers.

this is in no way a crack on mowers. That's how i started...and that's how a lot of the landscape contractor began as well.

Grass Kickin
11-25-2006, 08:31 AM
Turflord, it is because "We's lawn cutters are more dumber than those edumacated folk". Just kidding, I'm assuming that all of the guys here that cut grass are being referred as uneductated goobers. I'd just like to point out that when someone has to remind others how educated they are, they normally are quite ignorant and feel insecure about their own short comings.

Yard Pro, if we are talking about guys who mow lawns, you may be correct about the average age but if you meant legitamate LCO's, I think the average age is much higher. For many people, especially younger guys, cutting grass is a stop gap until something better comes along. I think there are way more people on this site who just do it to make a few bucks rather than the big guys who make a living doing it.

It is good that there are some type of requirements to become established in OR. It likely cuts down on the fly by night operations. The bottom line is, if you are good at what you do, you will get good business.

Grass Kickin
11-25-2006, 08:46 AM
It is baffling to me that Vaden made that statement and actually thought it was intelligent speak. Based on the fact that nobody here, with the exception of him, has revealed their qualifications, degrees, education or experience, it is a very wobbly statement at best. I certainly do not believe on showing everyone your cards and I'd guess that many of us do not feel the need to let everyone know our qualifications, that said it would be extremely difficult to qualify the original statement that essentially was Contractors are smarter than LCO guys.

I guess one could look at this as the gentlemen who focus on lawn work are more willing to share and give help as opposed to the contractors who don't offer help? Sorry, just don't understand the logic there.

Grn Mtn
11-25-2006, 11:08 AM
MDVaden is not the only one one here who chooses to reveal than HIDE. Granted, those that do may have ego's to stroke, or they just believe that revealing info about your company/self will help others better understand your answers, or allow others to seek you out in search of info/help/work outside of the forum.

I enjoy facts, and running numbers and have noticed the ratio of visitors too. I wish one couldn't visit though, whats so hard about participating. I think hiding behind a screen name is worse than calling it as you see it.

The truth hurts sometimes, and the fact is where there is no barrier-to-entry, competition will be fierce, the education level and age may be lower, and business practices may not always be up to spec.

BUT calling MDVaden unintelligent because he made a comment on something he has noticed is, well, weird?

Grn Mtn
11-25-2006, 11:19 AM
I for one applaud any teen with the gumption to run a LCO. It shows character, drive, a willingness to succeed. It drives me nuts when a customer asks me how old is someone, or when the teens get ignored when trying to shop for equipment.

Grass Kickin
11-25-2006, 12:17 PM
Vadens comments were not intelligent because they are baseless and merely his speculation, perhaps he wants to believe that having a degree from some Oregon college for landscape design makes him an authority on the subject. If you have a degree and you are a doctor, no argument from me, you are a genious. Here you are merely getting a piece of paper to do the same thing that many of us are doing and have experience at. Could you be more adept at it because of this degree, yes, however that is not guaranteed and probably unlikely.

Um so, err, people who have a landscaping/horticulture degree don't feel the need or are less likely to come on this website and participcate or ask questions? Dumbfounding! What happens when these people run out of answers for everything?

I'm 35 and still get ignored when shopping for equipment. lol

This has nothing to do with revealing or hiding anything. If anyone feels the need to list their credentials to qualify a point, perhaps their point isn't really well made in the first place.

abcfamily
11-25-2006, 12:37 PM
When I think of landscape I think of mulch, flowers, trees, bushes, pavers, blocks.....all of which requires alot of manual labor. As well as you need more customers to keep you busy through the season since you only need to service each property 2-3 times a year.
Whereas when I think of lawncare I think of trim, edge, and mow all which requires much less knowledge and fewer customers (complainers) but more importantly in my book much less manual labor. I'm in it for the money, not the workout.
If a customer wants me to be their total landscape/lawncare provider I honestly let them know that I am only interested in the lawncare end and give them the opportunity to find another provider.
So if that makes me less educated.......I'm o.k. with that!

mdvaden
11-25-2006, 01:28 PM
vaden..

looks like you touched a nerve...

i agree with you. There is far less experience in general with mowing operators than with landscape contractors. there is a lot less investment and experience necessary to start a mowing company than an landscape construction company. Therefore there is a lot more competetion in the mowing area.

also i'll bet the average age of the guys in the mowing sections is about 21 at the most. There are a lot that are still teenagers.

this is in no way a crack on mowers. That's how i started...and that's how a lot of the landscape contractor began as well.

That was a small part of it, but not in a bad malicious way.

If it touched nerves, then maybe it's good.

That's what prompted me to go to college my first term.

Touched - nerves in the golf greens crew. :weightlifter:

You can also tell by reading critics of this thread, that they haven't even begun to figure out what the thread is about yet.

WildWest
11-25-2006, 01:49 PM
Oregon landscapers must pass tests, and many more landscape contractors have been to college, and have more experience than lawn mowing outfits.I'm Pretty sure to become a "CONTRACTOR" you have to pass a test in just about EVERY state. Furthermore, just because an individual can pass a test, does NOT mean they know what they are doing!!! I passed an insurance underwriter test when I was 22, and I didn't know SQUAT about insurance!

That means that the landscape contractors - typically - have more knowledge and resources, and don't need quite as much assistance.Alot of contractors DO know what they are doing, they also may not require the assistance of others because they specialize in whatever and know that aspect of their business just fine.

Whereas the mowing guys, have less, and would be landscape contractors if they had the extra education. I think you are half right, and half wrong... Some people get into mowing because it's fairly easy, profitable and doesn't require a "contractors license" (for the most part). I for one have no desire to become a contractor. You can run a lawn and landscape maintenance Co. without being a licensed contractor. Doing bigger jobs (installs) is alot more complicated than maintaining a site.

Not sure about your area, but in Oregon, that's fairly accurate.

There are several landscapers here that also provide lawn care, although their lawn employees are typically entry-level to minimal education except for supervisor / crew leader types.Maybe because lawn mowing is a constant, where landscaping isn't always! If you look at some stats (state of the industry reports) shortly after 9/11 everything slowed...but lawn maint. pretty much held it's ground!

That's hows I sees it!

mdvaden
11-25-2006, 02:07 PM
Odd that I was up to 2 am last night, since that's unusual, but I was online after making another web page, and glanced at the stats on LawnSite and Arborist Site.

The users online at each dropped by 50%, but the registered users at each almost dropped off the scale. On LawnSite, there was about 30 times more visitors than users at 2am.

That was a 30 to 1 ratio - versus more like a 4 to 1 ratio around 6pm.

Arborist Site registered users online also almost dropped off the scale, and the ratio was more like 16 to 1 or visitors to registered users.

Those user numbers can generate some curiousity.

Ronnie Greenwood1
11-25-2006, 02:25 PM
I see no problem with listing your credentials schooling is a task alone, and people should be proud of that accomplishment. On the other hand that does not give you everything. I think More people are viewing lawn maintenance becouse it is a entry level part of the business, not to mention less knowledge and overhead is required to start up, and I am just fine with that. Maintenance has did well for me and I have no desire to do landscaping. Not everyone wants the same dream.

Le Machine
11-25-2006, 02:47 PM
I don't need to post a msg to answer my questions...I find alot of my answers by visiting and searching .

Allure
11-25-2006, 03:32 PM
there are no tests to be a licensed contractor here in NJ so it's not a true indicator of knowledge. as stated previously dif people have dif dreams, goals ,etc.

Just because people come here to exchange ideas & share stories it doesn't mean they are less educated or experienced.
one only has to read threads like this to see it from a dif perspective.
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=166629

WJW Lawn
11-25-2006, 03:59 PM
Dammit I was an honor roll student in school!!! Im 30 now!! lol Honestly..I find the commercial mowing portion of this site a hell of alot more interesting, and entertaining than the flower planting section. I could care less about when to plant pansies. I'd rather read equipment experiences...and sure you can pick up some tips here and there that make life easier. However this thread took 10 minutes of my life I can never get back.

BUCKEYE MOWING
11-25-2006, 04:02 PM
I am with WJW ...lol...

mdvaden
11-25-2006, 04:22 PM
Dammit I was an honor roll student in school!!! Im 30 now!! lol Honestly..I find the commercial mowing portion of this site a hell of alot more interesting, and entertaining than the flower planting section. I could care less about when to plant pansies. I'd rather read equipment experiences...and sure you can pick up some tips here and there that make life easier. However this thread took 10 minutes of my life I can never get back.

So would you say that more lawn mowing guys have mechanic aptitudes rather than horticultural or agricultural?

I like both the mechanical and the horticultural.

How important do you weigh the plant ID factor so that maintenance services can apply herbicides according to the label?

The typical palette for many US cities is around 400 to 1000 species and varieties of plants. Herbicides for weed control in lawns and beds, must follow the label for target plants.

That leaves maintenance people responsible for herbicide application without targeting the trees in the lawn, or shrubs and perennials in the beds.

So from what I've seen, most maintenance companies should have nearly the same education to properly do lawn and shrub bed care without snake-oil charming clients with watered down fast-food lawn care.

And the education does not have to come from college. It can be from books, seminars or proper on-the-job training.

It's been apparent in our neck of the woods, that most lawn / yard service company owners who don't take interest in horticulture, are bending or breaking the rules of herbicide application.

LindblomRJ
11-25-2006, 04:46 PM
Vaden - I agree with your last post there. I think you are right on the money there.

Az Gardener
11-25-2006, 04:57 PM
Here you are merely getting a piece of paper to do the same thing that many of us are doing and have experience at. Could you be more adept at it because of this degree, yes, however that is not guaranteed and probably unlikely.

Um so, err, people who have a landscaping/horticulture degree don't feel the need or are less likely to come on this website and participcate or ask questions? Dumbfounding! What happens when these people run out of answers for everything?

I felt the same way until I started taking classes and the more I learned the more I realized how little I knew. I also learned how little everyone else knew. Whats worse is those with "experience" are spreading their mis-information like the gospel even though most of what they teach is wives tales with no studies to back up the information. Just today I heard a radio guy and read a newspaper article both with tips for the homeowner that were completely wrong. So just because you have "experience" or a degree does not mean you are doing the right thing horticulturaly speaking. This is a very young industry, it was not until about 15 years ago that we even knew how tree branches were attached to the trunk. Horticultural information is evolving all the time, you need to be in the classes consistently to keep on top of things.

As to the disproportionate amount of viewers/participants on Mowing -vs- Install I believe it is because there is so much more work involved in keeping a install company operating. It does not leave much time for anything else.

With mowing or maintenance in general you sell it once and do a good job you book your 8 hours a day and you have a functional profitable business (simplified and in theory) You work your M-F and send out the bills at the end of the month. That night your too busy for lawnsite. Pretty simple really.

With a install company you sell sell sell then produce produce produce then look up and realize you have no where for the guys to go in 2 days so its sell sell sell again. You are producing and supplying during the day and bidding and billing and possibly designing at night. Certainly does not leave much time for lawnsite.

Lastly some people are just more curious/observant, they notice things. I don't think mdvaden was malicious or condescending, just curious.

mdvaden
11-25-2006, 05:26 PM
Without sacrificing the foundation of horticulture, one attraction I see that can draw people more heavily to equipment forums, is the lack books on review and experience.

It's not exactly like Ortho has a definitive book like the Lawn Mower's Bible to the Right Piece of Machinery.

Landscape and Horticulture books line a full isle of one favorite book store, plus, the knowledge slowly evolves.

But there a hardly any books in the same isle that accomplish the same purpose, plus, equipment models quickly evolve.

A lot of the forum migration may be just that - that the LawnSite equipment forum is the biggest center of reference.

High demand - small supply of resource centers of reference.

TurfProSTL
11-25-2006, 05:43 PM
Odd that I was up to 2 am last night, since that's unusual, but I was online after making another web page, and glanced at the stats on LawnSite and Arborist Site.

The users online at each dropped by 50%, but the registered users at each almost dropped off the scale. On LawnSite, there was about 30 times more visitors than users at 2am.

That was a 30 to 1 ratio - versus more like a 4 to 1 ratio around 6pm.

Arborist Site registered users online also almost dropped off the scale, and the ratio was more like 16 to 1 or visitors to registered users.

Those user numbers can generate some curiousity.Alot, maybe most, of the 'visitors' you are noticing are actually search engines. How do you think all those listings appear when you 'Google' a word or phrase?

LawnTamer
11-25-2006, 05:45 PM
On various forum sites, I find it interesting to see how many members are online and how many visitors. Usually 3 times more visitors.

The other part, is where in the forums the most users are located. In Lawn Site, there are about 8 times more, or 800% more in the Lawn Mowing Section than in the Landscpaping section.

Maybe more guys mow lawns. But another idea came to mind - at least it's very applicable here in Oregon.

Oregon landscapers must pass tests, and many more landscape contractors have been to college, and have more experience than lawn mowing outfits.

That means that the landscape contractors - typically - have more knowledge and resources, and don't need quite as much assistance.

Whereas the mowing guys, have less, and would be landscape contractors if they had the extra education.

Not sure about your area, but in Oregon, that's fairly accurate.

There are several landscapers here that also provide lawn care, although their lawn employees are typically entry-level to minimal education except for supervisor / crew leader types.

Sorry to say, but I agree.
It isn't though a matter of formal education, but rather area specific training. I offer fert and squirt, put myself through school doing it. To be an applicator you need to be licensed and demonstrate that you know what you are doing. When I decided to add mowing, I didn't know squat.
I bought Sears Craftsman mowers & trimmers and I didn't come anywhere near my goals.
Mowing successfully is every bit as hard as spraying, but there is no special training or licensing.
That's why I think a lot of people come on here; to learn and to share the tricks of the trade, which separate the pros from the scrubs.

Think about it. 2 guys who know what they are doing and have the right tools can out produce 5 guys who don't.

mdvaden
11-25-2006, 06:31 PM
Alot, maybe most, of the 'visitors' you are noticing are actually search engines. How do you think all those listings appear when you 'Google' a word or phrase?

I've monitored my web stats for two years. The search engines are not timing their visits to just after midnight. In fact, Google's spidering comes to my website up to 4 times per day - Yahoo's more like once.

Lawnsite had about 130 users last night at midnight to 2am, and it's fairly certain that any bots would be a minor fraction.

The bots can just as well be the daytime visitors, too.

I could see reason for search engines to tap into forums after midnight though, the data transfer is probably faster. But the number of bots, and the speed of their in-and-out surgical procedure is relatively momentary.

WildWest
11-25-2006, 07:25 PM
I think what happens is most guys get sucked into fert. and weed control...

They have a customer for which they do lawn maint. Then their customer notices that they have weeds creeping in so they ask "said lawn guy" if he can take care of the problem, YES is the answer, but instead of subing it out, try to make a buck doing it themselves. (without a license)

lawnman_scott
11-25-2006, 07:38 PM
Lawnsite had about 130 users last night at midnight to 2am, and it's fairly certain that any bots would be a minor fraction.

I was on a site the other day, and they alwasy brag about the members list. I started to actually go through it, and 75% have never posted and about 10-15% have less that 4 posts. I hope this helps.

WJW Lawn
11-25-2006, 07:56 PM
Well then...Im trading my truck for a short bus.

Grass Kickin
11-25-2006, 09:34 PM
Having the right knowledge about the work you do is essential to success. Whether you have a degree or not, is irrelevant. It comes down to what you truly know and how you apply that knowledge to your work.

Perhaps the reason there is more activity in the areas you looked at is because there are simply more people doing that type of work.

mdvaden
11-25-2006, 10:16 PM
HPerhaps the reason there is more activity in the areas you looked at is because there are simply more people doing that type of work.

Possible.

There probably are more lawn companies on Lawnsite than there are landscape contractors. Trends are still interesting to pay attention to though.

For example, look at Arborist Site .... Pick one fo the biggest threads for posts ...

It's the exception there where you see somebody's signature line with a list of their equipment, and when that shows up, it's typically minute.

But in Lawn Site, it's almost the norm that someone's signature is a list of their lawn mower down to their leaf rake.

That's just one other category of trend.

Lawnman_Scott mentioned an interesting observation a little bit ago. If it's where I'm thinking of, they are hard-pressed for bandwidth too - very slow page loading.

That's one thing I like about LawnSite, is that generally, the thread displays and postings move along at a fairly good clip.

I think what happens is most guys get sucked into fert. and weed control...

They have a customer for which they do lawn maint. Then their customer notices that they have weeds creeping in so they ask "said lawn guy" if he can take care of the problem, YES is the answer, but instead of subing it out, try to make a buck doing it themselves. (without a license)

It surprised me to find out that in Oregon, landscape maintenance guys don't need a pesticide license if they don't advertise or use power equipment. It's a bit limited, but basically they can do it as part of the lawn mowing monthly. The noose got tightened here, so I hear, but apparently on licensed landscape contractors, not the landscape maintenance, who need no bond, insurance or pesticide license if they play their cards that way.

If it changed, it was just recently.

TURFLORD
11-26-2006, 12:16 PM
Oregon landscapers must pass tests, and many more landscape contractors have been to college, and have more experience than lawn mowing outfits.

That means that the landscape contractors - typically - have more knowledge and resources, and don't need quite as much assistance.

Whereas the mowing guys, have less, and would be landscape contractors if they had the extra education.

There are several landscapers here that also provide lawn care, although their lawn employees are typically entry-level to minimal education except for supervisor / crew leader types. Just catching up with the thread now. Sorry, but still not satisfied with the rebuttal. This thread has, as so many others have, gone off on a tangent. I know thats a big word for an unedumuhcated boob such as myself, but please allow me to indulge myself. My original question has not been answered, but averted. If you claim that I've missed the point, please expand on your statement and descibe just what you meant....please. And, if, you are indeed claiming modesty, why is the font of your sig line 5x the size of everything else on the page?

paponte
11-26-2006, 12:56 PM
Simply put, because most people that enter this field start out in the maintenance business. As stated no certifications are needed, and much less capital is needed. Let's be realistic, all you need is a mower, trimmer, and a blower. I see 8yr olds cutting their grass, how much knowledge is really needed to mow lawns? I know I'll get some rebuttal from that comment, but let's be real.

YardPro
11-26-2006, 01:14 PM
i think that people are taking this as a disparagement.... it has not been...

The truth is that there are many more companies doing mowing than installs....
and the experience level of these mowing companies is on average lower...

I say this because the mowing is the foot in the door for most people into the landscape industry. The guys doing only chem, apps, or only installs usually come from the mowing arena.
very few go straight into installation.

this being said there is a greater percentage of inexperienced people mowing than other areas of the landscape industry...

Does that mean that all the guys mowing are inexperienced... NOT AT ALL...
nor does it mean that running a successful mowing business requires any less business skill than instals, etc...

MattsMowing3535
11-26-2006, 02:00 PM
I think that it also has alot to do with the age people are starting there companies. In order to landscape well you have to work with another company for at least a year or so and then learn the basics threw them. However in order to cut grass all you really need is a lawn of your own that you have been cutting for a few years. Someone already went over this but all you need to cut grass is a mower,trimmer,blower and maybe an edger. When it comes to landscaping you need some heaver equipment that in the end cost's alot more! Now for an explanation of what I meant by it being the age that people begin there business. I have been cutting my yard since I was 9 and I started to cut other yards when I was 11. Now I have a much larger client base for mowing. However even though I really wanted to start into landscaping I knew there was no way. I would't be surprised if half of the post's in the mowing sections are from people under 18 like me just trying to get down what we should have to start! Yes we don't have as much knowledge, but that is because were just teen's! The other half of the post's would be from the professionals just trying to do the right thing and help us out. I think that from grass cutting to landscaping the only difference in knowledge is what area they have the most knowledge of.

mdvaden
11-26-2006, 03:19 PM
Just catching up with the thread now. Sorry, but still not satisfied with the rebuttal. This thread has, as so many others have, gone off on a tangent. I know thats a big word for an unedumuhcated boob such as myself, but please allow me to indulge myself. My original question has not been answered, but averted. If you claim that I've missed the point, please expand on your statement and descibe just what you meant....please. And, if, you are indeed claiming modesty, why is the font of your sig line 5x the size of everything else on the page?

Unfortunately, it's a pain to edit post TITLES.

But the title would have fit well with a question mark - "?"

It can include a question for people to contribute to.

Do they need more help? >>> "yes"

Do they need more help? >>> "no"

But the "help" aspect is not the sole focus for the topic.

SproulsLawnCare
11-26-2006, 03:58 PM
Let's think about this a minute. As it has been stated; there are college courses for landscape installation, pest control, and other "contractor" related aspects of the field. There are college courses available for business, accounting, etc.. But I haven't seen any college courses on mowing, trimming, edging, or any of the other maintenance issues that the general LCO will face on a daily basis. Other than going to seminars and functions, like the Expo, once a year, THIS IS the CLASS ROOM. This is the greatest venue available to the LCO to gain knowledge from other experienced LCO's that have all ready learned what to do, and what not to do, so that they don't have to make the same mistakes that others have learned from. Many of the "experts" give there opinions (some are actually experts, some think they are) and therefore you need to spend more time sifting through the chafe to get solid answers. Thus more time spent on the site.
There are many un-registered people simply looking into the field to see if it is really something that they want to sink a bunch of money into. To see if it is really something that they want to do for several years as a main source of income. Some of them are simply a home owner that is looking for answers to a problem that they are having on there own lawn.
But surely; if I had spent my hard earned money to go to college to learn how to install landscapes, I don't think that I would be going to a forum to get someones opinion. I have already paid for solid information so that I would know what I was doing.

Yes, the mowing/ maintenance LCO needs more help (or answers), because this is where they are at. Not at a college.

WJW Lawn
11-26-2006, 05:36 PM
Sprouls makes a VERY good point! The best so far IMO.

craigs lawncare
11-26-2006, 05:43 PM
Well, I would attribute the increase in site activity due to the economy in many states.
Especially mine. Michigan.
The last time I checked, Michigan ranked highest in unemployment. I was told about a week ago by one of my long time customers that the neighbor across the street was going to mow her lawn next summer. She said he had lost his job and was going to start his own lawn business. :(
When I read the first post in this thread, that was the first thing that came to mind. When the economy gets tough, the fly-by-nights come out of the wood-work.


Craig

mdvaden
11-26-2006, 06:42 PM
But surely; if I had spent my hard earned money to go to college to learn how to install landscapes, I don't think that I would be going to a forum to get someones opinion. I have already paid for solid information so that I would know what I was doing.

Yes, the mowing/ maintenance LCO needs more help (or answers), because this is where they are at. Not at a college.

The other full reply of yours was quite good.

I only quoted this part, since that's what I'm replying on.

In my case, I went to college, and was trained at 2 country clubs and 2 university campuses.

But I still use forums to get information and opinions.

In addition to that, I found an online seminar for tree care; where arborists can get CEUs. It's free, too. Much of the info pertains to landscaping like planting and watering.

Where we moved to a year ago, it was dissappointing to discover no landscape horticulture class. I'm just glad I took classes up north when I was younger, plus repeats for review.

But it appears that quality horticulture information is definitely making it's mark on the internet.

A COMMENT ABOUT LAWN CARE - NOT PERTAINING TO YOU POST.

A couple of replies discussed lawn mowing with an implied lack of need for major credentials and education.

I agree to a point, as long as those companies only represent and hold themselves forth to the community as "mowing" services. But if they advertise the image of entrusting lawn, weed and shrub care, that's a different ballgame.

LAWN MOWING and LAWN CARE are miles apart. Mowing requires sharp blades and routine.

Lawn care, means knowing how to ID turf for accurate fertilizer rates, as well as preservation of the lawn with methods like aerifying, thatching or pest control.

lawnworker
11-27-2006, 09:26 AM
Market forces at work-nothing more. There is only so much planting to be done. Mowing-well-you all know the drill.

Grass Kickin
11-27-2006, 10:00 AM
Let's think about this a minute. As it has been stated; there are college courses for landscape installation, pest control, and other "contractor" related aspects of the field. There are college courses available for business, accounting, etc.. But I haven't seen any college courses on mowing, trimming, edging, or any of the other maintenance issues that the general LCO will face on a daily basis. Other than going to seminars and functions, like the Expo, once a year, THIS IS the CLASS ROOM. This is the greatest venue available to the LCO to gain knowledge from other experienced LCO's that have all ready learned what to do, and what not to do, so that they don't have to make the same mistakes that others have learned from. Many of the "experts" give there opinions (some are actually experts, some think they are) and therefore you need to spend more time sifting through the chafe to get solid answers. Thus more time spent on the site.
There are many un-registered people simply looking into the field to see if it is really something that they want to sink a bunch of money into. To see if it is really something that they want to do for several years as a main source of income. Some of them are simply a home owner that is looking for answers to a problem that they are having on there own lawn.
But surely; if I had spent my hard earned money to go to college to learn how to install landscapes, I don't think that I would be going to a forum to get someones opinion. I have already paid for solid information so that I would know what I was doing.

Yes, the mowing/ maintenance LCO needs more help (or answers), because this is where they are at. Not at a college.
__________________

Good post. There are many of us who wear a ton of hats. Maybe it is not a good thing to mix LCO work with installs and contract work but sometimes we are forced to do it to maintain the accounts that we have. I think many of my customers want 1 guy doing their work. A good thing for me is that I've made a prety reliable network of friends who might be able to help out if the job gets really large and beyond something I truly want to do.

I'm all for education and learning because this field changes weekly. The problem I see with a degree in this field is the amount of changing that takes place. My horticulture classwork from the early 90's is pretty worthless right now with the developement of new techniques, equipment etc, everything I learned has changed. I also hold degrees in Criminal Procedural Law, Forensics and Behavioral Science. I can't say any of that crap made me a better cop. Text books are good tools but they are no substitution for being out there and getting your hands dirty. I guess it is how you apply these things. That being said, I would absolutely expect anyone who looks at this site to view it as a resource. I may not agree with some of the stuff I see here but it is possible to get many ideas from it.

mdvaden
11-27-2006, 01:30 PM
One of the more notable differences between Lawn Site and Arborist Site, too, is the reply volume.

Arborist Site has roughtly 1/2 the traffic and viewers of Lawn Site. But the replies are not 1/2.

Whereas replies are posted on all of Lawnsite - not just the equipment forum - by the multitudes daily, Arborist Site seems to have about 5% the number of replies as Lawn Site, instead of 50%.

That may reflect that Arborist Site users read more, and Lawn Site users write more.

Beau Rivage
12-01-2006, 01:29 PM
When I think of landscape I think of mulch, flowers, trees, bushes, pavers, blocks.....all of which requires alot of manual labor. As well as you need more customers to keep you busy through the season since you only need to service each property 2-3 times a year.
Whereas when I think of lawncare I think of trim, edge, and mow all which requires much less knowledge and fewer customers (complainers) but more importantly in my book much less manual labor. I'm in it for the money, not the workout.
If a customer wants me to be their total landscape/lawncare provider I honestly let them know that I am only interested in the lawncare end and give them the opportunity to find another provider.
So if that makes me less educated.......I'm o.k. with that!

It doesn't make you less educated...in fact it's called working SMART. It shouldn't take a degree in anything to figure out you can make more money gleaning customers all year long rather than once or twice a year. (if that) Also, as you state, it's far less manual labor to ride a mower than slinging cross-ties and pavers.:dizzy: It's obviously true that there are more mowers than landscapers but that's obviously because there is a greater need. Certainly in the southeast anyway, where grass grows like a rain forest. Most of the landscapers in my area on the surface anyway, appear a lot less educated than a lot of the mowing crews. Mostly worn out trucks and illegal aliens that can't speak two words of english between them. Why? Because it's "one of those jobs Americans arn't willing to do":laugh: :laugh: :laugh: No, you can have your picks, shovels, rock walls and cross-ties...I'll keep riding.:headphones:

mdvaden
12-02-2006, 03:28 AM
TURFLORD - "It was suggested recently that lawn cutters are all stupid because they never went to college. By comparision, all landscapers are so well educated that they are in a higher caste. The criteria for this revelation is solely that this particular forum contains so many questions from grass cutters in ratio to landscapers. Scroll down a couple of pages and you'll find the thread. I thought I should bump this issue back to the forefront because it so smacks of arrogance and egotism. So tell me fellow mowrons, are you feeling stupid today? Do you feel this assumption to be accurate?"

This is a bit of rhetoric from someone who started a thread...

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=168162

It will be handy to keep in this thread, because it seems to pertain to it. Compare the extreme statements of that quote, to the opening post of this thread.

Possibly in haste, they missed the mention of "Oregon".

It may have been wiser to ask what it is about Oregon that sets many mowing services apart from landscapers.

Part of it, is the test. In Oregon, may lawn service owners would like to be licensed landscape contractors too, so they can plant lawns and other things, but only 1 in 10 people in Oregon pass the license exams first time through - that's everybody together. That's one piece of the puzzle.

Note TurfLord's use of "all" & "all" when in reality, this thread starts with words "more".

The distortion of text is evident, but apparently was altered provide a false premise.

This reply will be copied in the other thread too.

TURFLORD
12-02-2006, 06:31 AM
We "all" lie to ourselves in our own way, this must be one of yours.

horticulturedawg
12-02-2006, 07:06 AM
mdvaden, I personally find your comments insulting. If you think landscape installation is more difficult than maintenance, you are ignorant and do not have a clue as to what high end maintenance is all about.

Anybody can draw circles and pretty curves, install it and leave. WOW really hard. Try taking care of the crap designs five years later. Plants too close together, shade loving plants in the full sun, sun loving plants in the shade....on and on. To be a really good landscape contractor, you have to have vision as to what the planting will look like when the plant material matures. We correct this problem all the time on new and several years old landscapes by "reputable" install companies.

I don't mean to insult you, because you are obviously ignorant, but if you did go to college, it probably wasn't a very good one.

horticulturedawg
12-02-2006, 08:00 AM
Sorry man, did not mean to be so harsh...bad day yesterday and carried over to today. I am sure you are very knowledgeable and educated. *trucewhiteflag*

Az Gardener
12-02-2006, 11:03 AM
[QUOTE=horticulturedawg]
Anybody can draw circles and pretty curves, install it and leave. WOW really hard. Try taking care of the crap designs five years later. Plants too close together, shade loving plants in the full sun, sun loving plants in the shade....on and on. To be a really good landscape contractor, you have to have vision as to what the planting will look like when the plant material matures. We correct this problem all the time on new and several years old landscapes by "reputable" install companies. [QUOTE]

I think everyone is misreading McV. Glad to see you followed up with an apology. I quit following this thread but I saw your name contributing and I wanted to see what you had to say. You and I are in the same market. You hit the nail on the head with the quote, I liken it to the difference between a date and a marriage, Which one is easier. You just forgot one more line at the end.

"and renowned landscape architects as well".

We make it all work. The one that always gets me is you get called in and the property is 5 yrs old. It has been in decline since day one and the homeowners are still using the architects recommendations :dizzy: even though the last 3-4 have been failures. Just goes to show how unwilling people are to admit they have made a bad decision.

I have one architect that does this. I used to be his favorite but over the years he has found out I have, from time to time, pointed out he does make mistakes. He is a great architect I really like his designs but like everyone he makes a few mistakes. He just does not want anyone to know he is not perfect. I am like his last resort these days, I only get referral's from him when the landscape is circling the drain.

mdvaden
12-02-2006, 11:34 AM
Sorry man, did not mean to be so harsh...bad day yesterday and carried over to today. I am sure you are very knowledgeable and educated. *trucewhiteflag*

Everybody deserves a few bad hair day coupons.

:)

Jumping tracks for a moment...

It's interesting that in the threads of this week, TurfLord is about the only person who called Lawn Service people stupid.

I'm not sure if many people are familiar with a scriptural record in Acts, but TurfLord's post reminded me of the Silversmith Demetrius in Acts who got a whole portion of a skilled trade to cry out for almost two hours "Great is Diana of the Ephesions !! - Great is Diana of the Ephesians !!".

By a slight distortion of terminology, Demetrius triggered a whole bunch of people to get bent out of shape for no apparent reason.

carcrz
12-02-2006, 03:18 PM
I think a lot of it has to do w/ the fact that this is Lawnsite & not titled w/ something to do w/ landscaping.

dwc
12-02-2006, 03:35 PM
Maybe more guys mow lawns. But another idea came to mind - at least it's very applicable here in Oregon.

Oregon landscapers must pass tests, and many more landscape contractors have been to college, and have more experience than lawn mowing outfits.

That means that the landscape contractors - typically - have more knowledge and resources, and don't need quite as much assistance.

Whereas the mowing guys, have less, and would be landscape contractors if they had the extra education.

Not sure about your area, but in Oregon, that's fairly accurate.

There are several landscapers here that also provide lawn care, although their lawn employees are typically entry-level to minimal education except for supervisor / crew leader types.

So let me get this straight.....YOU come to a COMMERCIAL LAWN MOWING forum to vent about how much higher and mightier LA's and Arborists are than Cutters? That makes a whole lot of sense.
Do you think neurosurgeons go around bragging that they have more college than regular surgeons?
While grass cutting is not my only field, I do make more money at it than most of my friends who sat in college for 4+ years of their life. Just because one has a paper that states they graduated from a school does NOT make them more knowledgeable than people already in that field.
We have two highly educated scraper's that write articles in the paper here from time to time. I can say from experience if one were to follow everything these men said in their articles, your landscape would be dead. They even go as far to recommend chemicals that are not on the market and have not been on the market for years!
I think maintenance people who really apply themselves and care about their business probably do know much more than installers simply because they keep up with products on the market and what works and what does not work.
Also, to imply mowing is just riding a mower around will make a lawn look great...I have to differ. There is a HUGE difference in a kid riding around a mower and a true mowing professional manicuring a lawn. If you do not believe me, do a search of some of the photos that have been posted by the pro's on this site.
One last disclaimer, I am not saying every person that mows is a professional or that they care to increase their knowledge. There are however some out there that do care to increase their knowledge to be the best they can and that is why many of them come here.

mdvaden
12-02-2006, 04:59 PM
So let me get this straight.....YOU come to a COMMERCIAL LAWN MOWING forum to vent about how much higher and mightier LA's and Arborists are than Cutters? That makes a whole lot of sense....

To help you get this straight, we need to tell you to reverse your private interpretation between 90 and 180 degrees, since there was no venting to start with.

I've seen quite a few replies, and a few emails this week, that probably hit the nail on the head - that some lawn service people read the thread with a chip on their shoulder and tried to vent, themselves. (or misread the topic as a negative, or, didn't read all the way through).

Ever heard the concept about people accusing others of their own issue?

Personally, I think you read the opening of the thread, formed an opinion that goes cross-grain with the enitire topic - since one post alone does not clarify a question or idea.

mdvaden
12-02-2006, 05:04 PM
So let me get this straight.....YOU come to a COMMERCIAL LAWN MOWING forum to vent about how much higher and mightier LA's and Arborists are than Cutters? That makes a whole lot of sense....

To help you get this straight, we need to tell you to reverse your private interpretation between 90 and 180 degrees, since there was no venting to start with.

I've seen quite a few replies, and a few emails this week, that probably hit the nail on the head - that some lawn service people read the thread with a chip on their shoulder and tried to vent, themselves.

Ever heard the concept about people accusing others of their own issue?

Personally, I think you read the opening of the thread, formed an opinion that goes cross-grain with the enitire topic - since one post alone does not clarify a question or idea.

Daner
12-02-2006, 05:19 PM
Plain and simple...Its about the ole buggers helping the new guys out...and also the young guys too can help the ole buggers out as well. I bet theres not one member that can say the lawn site hasent helped them In some way or another...even If your as smart as me

dwc
12-02-2006, 09:08 PM
To help you get this straight, we need to tell you to reverse your private interpretation between 90 and 180 degrees, since there was no venting to start with.

I've seen quite a few replies, and a few emails this week, that probably hit the nail on the head - that some lawn service people read the thread with a chip on their shoulder and tried to vent, themselves. (or misread the topic as a negative, or, didn't read all the way through).

Ever heard the concept about people accusing others of their own issue?

Personally, I think you read the opening of the thread, formed an opinion that goes cross-grain with the enitire topic - since one post alone does not clarify a question or idea.

Sounded pretty darn clear to me:

That means that the landscape contractors - typically - have more knowledge and resources, and don't need quite as much assistance.
Whereas the mowing guys, have less, and would be landscape contractors if they had the extra education.

There are several landscapers here that also provide lawn care, although their lawn employees are typically entry-level to minimal education except for supervisor / crew leader types.

So again, you took a stab at LCO's on their own site. IF you did not mean cutters are dumber than scrapers, then you might want to consider how you word things on the internet.
While I do wish more LCO's would take some pride in their work and educate themselves, lumping all LCO's in the same basket does not set well as you have found out.

So as for my opinion being formed from what you fist posted, do not hit the new thread topic until you can think how to type what you mean. But it looks like you pretty well clarified what you meant in your first post.

TNT LawnCare Inc.
12-02-2006, 09:46 PM
I think its buy ,due to the fact there are more youth getting into Lawncare. Maybe they cant afford college. Or there parents just dont have the funds

mdvaden
12-02-2006, 09:49 PM
Sounded pretty darn clear to me:

That means that the landscape contractors - typically - have more knowledge and resources, and don't need quite as much assistance.
Whereas the mowing guys, have less, and would be landscape contractors if they had the extra education.

There are several landscapers here that also provide lawn care, although their lawn employees are typically entry-level to minimal education except for supervisor / crew leader types.

So again, you took a stab at LCO's on their own site. IF you did not mean cutters are dumber than scrapers, then you might want to consider how you word things on the internet.
While I do wish more LCO's would take some pride in their work and educate themselves, lumping all LCO's in the same basket does not set well as you have found out.

So as for my opinion being formed from what you fist posted, do not hit the new thread topic until you can think how to type what you mean. But it looks like you pretty well clarified what you meant in your first post.

And this reply of yours omits any reference to "Oregon" which was not omitted from the initial post for a reason.

And therein lies part of the misconception.

As far as "hitting" new topics, we will post when we choose. This is not the LCO's site. I suggest you read the "about us" section before hitting the reply button.

You see, what you quoted, came after "Oregon".

Having been in the industry here since 1980, and serving 6 years on the Oregon license board, I have a fairly good idea of what is happening here in "Oregon".

You may want to ask some question about what is happening here.

mdvaden
12-02-2006, 10:04 PM
To others:

Please note the "Maybe" in the opening post, which denotes what was written is not an absolute: and open for discussion.

dwc
12-03-2006, 12:44 AM
when I was referring to this being a LCO forum, I was referring to the COMMERCIAL MOWING & MAINTENANCE - MOWING, TRIMMING, MAINTENANCE & MORE > Commercial Lawn Mowing part of LS.
There is a design and build with a commercial landscaping forum also, which sounds like it may fit your aspect of business a little better.

My point is you knew this was going to get the pro's in the commercial lawn mowing forum to be angered.

I did overlook the "oregon" part.....if I were to say maybe the LA's in Oklahoma have wasted 4+ years of their life in college, and posted this in the Commercial landscaping forum, it would not be received well, whether I put Oklahoma or not.

I wonder if you would have been praised and applauded for the post if the direction of your recent posts would have been different?

Are you seeing a lot of problems in Oregon with unskilled people destroying landscapes or something?

mdvaden
12-03-2006, 01:51 AM
when I was referring to this being a LCO forum, I was referring to the COMMERCIAL MOWING & MAINTENANCE - MOWING, TRIMMING, MAINTENANCE & MORE > Commercial Lawn Mowing part of LS.
There is a design and build with a commercial landscaping forum also, which sounds like it may fit your aspect of business a little better.

My point is you knew this was going to get the pro's in the commercial lawn mowing forum to be angered.

I did overlook the "oregon" part.....if I were to say maybe the LA's in Oklahoma have wasted 4+ years of their life in college, and posted this in the Commercial landscaping forum, it would not be received well, whether I put Oklahoma or not.

I wonder if you would have been praised and applauded for the post if the direction of your recent posts would have been different?

Are you seeing a lot of problems in Oregon with unskilled people destroying landscapes or something?

Well, it's good and it's bad.

First - let me say yes. Much landscape damage, and homeowners don't always know it's happening. Soil compaction, chemical damage to plants from herbicides, butchered plants from pruning. Much of the deterioration occurs over time, between 1, 2 or more services that people alternate between. Hard to pin-it on one outfit for compensation. But many services don't understand what they are working on, how to ID grass, monitor fertilizer rates, and so on.

The separation between good and bad is spreading farther apart. It's almost like there is no middle ground. For starters, north Oregon by Portland has several good colleges with practical teachers. The average age of students in the landscape program - 1980s -was about 30 - they were there because they liked horticulture. They were there because they liked lawn care, or they like nursery work, or they liked tree work. The main thing - they liked "horticulture". About 99% of the students were caucasian English speaking students who could understand the instruction, and communicated well to understand customer needs. Actually, that's almost the nature of the non-students; just lawn and landscape workers in the field.

Since 1980, Oregon - or Portland's - population has doubled. But the enrollment in the college programs has remained about the same. That's not a good sign. Now, the lawn trade and landscaper trade is about 60% Hispanic, with the greater problem being communication. Not prepared to understand the classes in college, few landscape books available in Spanish, and very limited ability to communicate with customers. The number one complaint I heard from citizens in north Oregon who hired lawn services or landscapers, was that they couldn't talk to the workers.

The influx of labor from south of Oregon, has caused the income in lawn and landscape care to barely rise. This doesn't mean that there are not good lawn services, it's just that most of the more qualified ones happen to be landscape contractors. And then there's a few isolated good lawn services that do just that - lawn care.

The landscape professionals here are getting undermined by cheap labor in the lawn care section, so many of them are making a big push to get their landscape contractors license because that install activity is monitored, controllable and enforcible. And regardless of race, if someone is going to be a landscaper in Oregon, they are going to have to study their a$$ off to pass the tests. Only 1 in 10 people pass the tests first time through. So that hurdle enables a safe haven to practice some form of horticulture without being undermined.

I just moved to south Oregon, and it's different here. There are more whites than hispanics doing lawn care here, but the wages in many other jobs are less in Medford, so it funnels more people to do lawn care because they are not getting undermined on business income as bad.

So this state is split up.There's the LAWN service predominant companies. About 10% would be well qualified and NOT be a landscape contrator. The other 90% are either just passing their time to make a buck, or are near-non-English speaking services where the workers work hard, but have very limited knowledge to actually preserve landscapes. And the deal with that 90%, is that they are not just doing lawns. They are getting their hands on shrubs and small trees, turning half the stuff into meatballs because they don't know how to direct plant growth.

ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE

Is Landscape contractors. The bulk have passed the state tests. I'm guessing it's 50/50 - half do installation only and the other half do installs and lawn care. The Tree Care niche is the only green laborious trade in Oregon that hasn't taken a hit. Cheap labor hasn't even dented it. It's the one trade where "horticulture" is on the rise. I'm not sure how clearly that explains our environment here, but hopefully that gives some idea. In the last 25 years, the art and interest in "horticulture" has been on the decline among the larger portion of the Lawn-Only segment business services.

And its not so much a decline, as it is an increase of people coming in with little interest for horticulture. And there are lawn service with great enthusiasm for knowing plants, trees and soils. It's just that a large percentage of these, happen to be licenced landscape contractor services. All I remember, is that 20 years ago, men and women here, could start in business doing lawns and "gardening" and make decent money without having to hire one or two crews.

That's all changed in 20 years - and 15 years really. Now the men and women lean toward the path of the landscape exam and license, and then a small handfull will start a lawn service, but need several employees to start making a living. It's almost become like where the arborist trade and landscape licensees is like the inside of a fortress for protection, and outside the walls is this labor pool low-bidding against each other. And the walls have been getting thicker and taller as more people move up and start working for minimal money.

And lastly, I had no idea the thread would anger folks. As I said earlier, people don't seem to understand the nature of the post. Since it's not a put-down, and posted for ideas and input, why would I expect anger?

Jnamo
12-03-2006, 10:05 AM
And lastly, I had no idea the thread would anger folks. As I said earlier, people don't seem to understand the nature of the post. Since it's not a put-down, and posted for ideas and input, why would I expect anger?

Then why don’t you do what any other highly educated pedagogical genius such as yourself would do?

You are obviously bored…

You obviously have some incomplete feelings about yourself…

Sitting on the couch and whipping the contestants on Jeopardy just isn’t enough for you?

I wish I had the free time to divulge what little brainpower I have to such an unimportant waste of time thing to think about.

Why not use all of your Mr. Spock attributes and start a college for guys that cut grass?

The fact that I am typing this gives way too much validity to your self-loathing, tediously immature thoughts. Get a hobby my friend. :usflag:

mdvaden
12-03-2006, 12:54 PM
Then why don’t you do what any other highly educated pedagogical genius such as yourself would do?

You are obviously bored…

You obviously have some incomplete feelings about yourself…

Sitting on the couch and whipping the contestants on Jeopardy just isn’t enough for you?

I wish I had the free time to divulge what little brainpower I have to such an unimportant waste of time thing to think about.

Why not use all of your Mr. Spock attributes and start a college for guys that cut grass?

The fact that I am typing this gives way too much validity to your self-loathing, tediously immature thoughts. Get a hobby my friend. :usflag:


That sounds foolish and makes no sense. I don't sit around. In fact, I currently have an article online qualifying arborists for CEUs for recertification. Up to 2 years ago, I absorbed a $4000 loss in income per year to serve on the landscape board as a service to the public an industry - as it's a non-paying service. Whereas no tree care classes are available in the local college, I have put together course outlines and am teaching those. Whereas no college program for LAWN or LANDSCAPE exists in southern Oregon, I am volunteering time every month to help the college follow through on a Grant.

So my work is dispersed all through the day to benefit the profession, workers, education, often past midnight.

I already have a hobby of hiking, but have turned my website hobby into an income generator, where the site itself brings in 5 times what I put out for it. And that's not referring to the work it brings in.

This is my second start of business, and in a new area - having just passed the one year mark here.

You are in Fantasy Land. So with you grossly innacurate advice, I'd suggest that you sit back and put on your seat belt. You know...

Keep posting away.

Your reply was like TurfLord that started a thread this week. He went way out into left field.

A couple of days ago, I started a thread about biolubricants, and TurfLord comes on in to the thread and accuses me of a "stupid" question, then got himself shot down by other people in the thread. Because TurfLord tried to make decisions with his emotions, starting with mis-reading the thread I started. But he got his fingers slammed in the door. Both in another topic, but also by the other people who did understand what I wrote. Not everybody mis-read the topic.

Now you come in here bringing up your imaginations about me - whom you are not around - with bizarre ideas. I don't have incomplete feelings about myself... YOU, have incomplete feelings about myself.

Once again, your advice is bizarre: absolutely bizarre.

walker/redmax
12-03-2006, 01:19 PM
And this reply of yours omits any reference to "Oregon" which was not omitted from the initial post for a reason.

And therein lies part of the misconception.

As far as "hitting" new topics, we will post when we choose. This is not the LCO's site. I suggest you read the "about us" section before hitting the reply button.

You see, what you quoted, came after "Oregon".

Having been in the industry here since 1980, and serving 6 years on the Oregon license board, I have a fairly good idea of what is happening here in "Oregon".

You may want to ask some question about what is happening here.



Stop trying to talk your way out of this. You insulted allot of people with your arrogant post. You act like we are all crazy because we called you on it. I've got an idea, how about you move to a different country and make an insulting statement about how much smarter you are than them because your American. See how well that goes over.:waving:

mdvaden
12-03-2006, 01:40 PM
Stop trying to talk your way out of this. You insulted allot of people with your arrogant post. You act like we are all crazy because we called you on it. I've got an idea, how about you move to a different country and make an insulting statement about how much smarter you are than them because your American. See how well that goes over.:waving:

Walker Redmax...

Let me put it this way.

Let me assume that I made a mistake, or was trying to arrogantly put people down. (Hey many people are liking this part right !! - anyway)....

So assume it was an intended put-down...

So arrogant, or not arrogant, you would profit better to plainly say that you felt like you were on the receiving end of statements that made you feel put-down.

Beyond that, you don't know how thick the ice is.

Anybody can be right if they honestly say how they feel. But people fall through often, when they try and guesstimate what other people mean.

So thank-you for your concern.

(Was this the only topic of mine in 3 years that you felt was arrogant?)

dwc
12-03-2006, 03:47 PM
I feel your last reply to my post was directed the way it should have been in the beginning. I think many reading the Mowing forum could relate to what you described there.

It seems to me where the whole problem lies with the green industry is the people referred to as "scrubs" are ruining this business. As you may have noticed from reading posts on here, many have the idea they will become the Wal-Mart of lawn care. Since our society has been programmed (greatly thanks to WM) that the lowest price is the only thing that matters, these people get the work! The sad thing is in order to stay afloat, real legit LCO's who care and have a knowledge of the green industry, must compete with the "scrubs" to get the work. Now anyone knows, including WM, that with a lower price always comes a cut of service somewhere.
One difference I see with WM compared to green industry is WM sales a product which does not require expertise in the same way caring for grass, trees, shrubs, etc demands. Anyone can swipe the toothpaste past the scanner and throw it in the bag. Not everyone can look at a lawn, tree etc and tell the customer this is what they think is wrong.
Take the car market for example. A Kia and a Mercedes will both get you from point A to point B. Which one has taken the time to not only build a name that quality is associated with, but is more well built to stand up to many years of service?
This is one illustration I have looked at with my business plan to see that not everyone is going to hire my company even though I may have more knowledge than another competitor, simply because that is just not the way all people think.

TURFLORD
12-04-2006, 05:43 AM
Walker Redmax...

Let me put it this way.

Let me assume that I made a mistake, or was trying to arrogantly put people down. (Hey many people are liking this part right !! - anyway)....

So assume it was an intended put-down...

So arrogant, or not arrogant, you would profit better to plainly say that you felt like you were on the receiving end of statements that made you feel put-down.

Beyond that, you don't know how thick the ice is.

Anybody can be right if they honestly say how they feel. But people fall through often, when they try and guesstimate what other people mean.

So thank-you for your concern.

(Was this the only topic of mine in 3 years that you felt was arrogant?)
The psyco-babble is getting deep in here.;) and my hands feel just fine. I think my work here is almost done.