Help With An Estimate

[dozerman21]

I posted this in the Commercial Landscaping forum, but it's probably better suited for here.

I've got a job that's bigger than most that I do. Here's what I'm looking at:

App. 84,500 SF (almost 2 acres) that needs the sod stripped off and carried app. 50 yards to stock pile.

The lot is fairly level, however I do need to fill in some low spots and cut down some high spots that hold water, along with one corner that need a 5-6 loads of fill dirt to make the area level (no charge on hauling the dirt, just to grade it). Nothing real major, I'm figuring it will take around 6 hours to get it pretty level using a dozer.

Harley Rake the entire area graded.

I would also like to know how much seed and straw I would need, and what to charge for that, separate from the dirt work.

Thanks in advance!

[ksss]

I realize you have dozer and may not have grader but I have had good luck on similiar jobs bring in a grader for a couple of hours putting it all into windrows then using a loader to move to pile (or use your dozer). The blade does such a nice job leveling its hard to beat with anything else. just my thoughts.

[Gravel Rat]

I don't think you will be done in 6 hours. Without seeing what you have to do its hard to day what your best move to make.

If I was doing a job like that I would use a excavator with a clean up bucket and a dump truck. If the property is level enough and a truck can run around it would be easy to scrape up the sod and dump it into the truck. Or if you don't have a excavator a rubber tired backhoe or a large enough skid steer.

I can't see using a bulldozer doing a clean enough job.

[dozerman21]

KSSS- You're right, a grader would be ideal, but I don't own one, and I woundn't come out good enough on the profit to rent one. I can do it with my dozer, it will just take longer.

Gravel Rat- I'll be doing this job just with my dozer and CTL. The 6 hours is just for the time on the dozer. I can get it pretty slick with that, and then I plan to use a Harley Rake to finish the area.

I'm new to the landscaping/finish grade side of this, that's why I'm not sure what to charge for the entire job. Any ideas?

[Gravel Rat]

What does the homeowner want done with the ground after you clear off the sod ?

Do they want to plant sod agian or ?

How big is your bulldozer if the people want to plant grass again or do any kind of gardening work I doubt your going to want a heavy machine packing the ground. If you can do the whole job with your CTL would be better less ground disturbance.

As for charging I would plan on minimum 2 days if it takes less only charge them for less. I only do things by the hour because you always run into the unknowns I give the customer a high ball price and usually they say okay. You start on the job and you end up hitting a huge rock or your machine hits a sink hole :laugh: it takes time to work around it.

Like I said I don't know how big your dozer is or how big your CTL is but I know for one thing in my area bulldozers on residential jobs disapeared in the late 60s early 70s. A excavator is used for pretty well 95% of the jobs a good operator with a clean up bucket can scrape that sod off quickly. You just keep raking the material back till you get it all scraped off then take a skid steer and back blade the ground.

[RockSet N' Grade]

dozerman......we just did a 1/2 acre lot kinda like what you are doing. We striped and piled with a dozer and contoured a hillside and then I ran over it with a tractor with a grading bucket and roller. I would have prefered to have a skid with preparator, but that wasn't the case.....so I made do. I charged the guy $2,800. The dozer was in and out in less than four hours for the half acre. I spent the better part of the day fine tuning.The only catch I see to what you are bidding on is not the field work, but the edges. Does the work come up to the house, how to blend into adjoining properties....that is where the time can be chewed up if youre not careful....so check your edges.
The dozer was $1200 for the 4 hrs and if you are good, you can really slick things up nice with the dozer.

[RockSet N' Grade]

oh ya, forgot this.....as far as by the hour or bid.........bid that bad-boy. You'll never make any money by rental/by the hour. If you aren't comfortable, by the hour is guaranteed....don't forget transport fees. In my contracts, I have a cavaet for unforseen things like sink-holes, boulders, blasting, hitting a rubbish pile, and yada yada....that usually takes care of the unforseen's.

[Construct'O]

Dozerman ! Glad to see i'm not the only one that beleives in dozers getting the job done in this do it with a excavator world ????????

If you got it i say use it!!!!!!! Rent is like pouring good money done a rat hole.Plus if like me dozer is paid for so use it.If not paid for you still need to be using it.Good luck.

[Construct'O]

O! By the way a 2 acres isn't like working in a backyard 50 ft by 100 ft.That a far size area to be working on.

Just got a call from a guy that wants a 10 acre wetland built and i'm not planning on useing any stinking excavator unless just maybe???????????;)

[Gravel Rat]

The only time we see a bulldozer is in a gravel pit up on a hillside pushing material the finess work is all left with excavators. Nowwadays in this area your hardpressed to find a good catskinner if you do find a good guy they are in their 70s :laugh:

When we did one of the school fields a grader works good for keeping things flat the old 740 Champion with its 6/71 screaming.

Does the home owner really want to strip off the whole 2 acres at once what happens if the weather changes and you get heavy rain etc.

[dozerman21]

Construct'O- Dozer work is 95% of what I do. Most of this includes backfilling, grading yards, and cutting swales. I'm trying to venture in the landscaping scene a little more on the side to be more versitle and pick up more side jobs like this. People often forget how much you can do with a dozer, especially when it comes to getting it slick enough in the right conditions, you don't even need a tractor to finish it.

Gravel Rat- Nobody that I know around here would use an excavator for this type of a grading job. It would be way overkill, and IMO, take longer. Around here dozers are as popular as ever (along with CTL's). I totally understand that you have not seen it, so it's hard for you to know what all is involved in the job. I also know that the ground is very different where you live, and I've heard from previous posts how rocky the ground is- hence the use of excavators. This job is actually going to be a soccer field. I have a finish dozer (Case 550H) that I'll be grading with. I'm going to seed and straw it after I use a Harley Rake on it. My CTL is a Deere CT332.

RockSet N' Grade- I agree on the bids. I always try to bid by the job, usless there are too many variables out of my control. This job is pretty clear cut, it's just a bigger area than what I normally do. You're right about the cutting swales. That's where you can really get into some time. I don't have to worry about any swales, I just can't have any holding water on the field. I'm going to crown it a little. After the water leaves the field, it will run downhill all around. This job won't be done until next spring when I warms up. I want to bid high enough where I don't lose my arse, but I don't want to overbid too much and not get it. It's a pretty competitive market here. Is $.08 -$.10 per sq.ft. for the entire job in the ballpark? I have an idea of what I need for the dozer part, I guess I'm just struggling with the finish part.:confused:

[gammon landscaping]

well i get 2500 an acre for prep and seed/straw. so i would think i would need a days wage for the dozer. you will probablly need a man and a laser to help keep it crowened properly. 2 acres is a little more diffucult to eye ball than you think. so i would 1200-1500 for the grading. and 5000 +/- for seeding and strawing. that would be my estamate but if i had to bid it would be 7250. i hate to bid. all these guys that say that you should always bid are nuts. most of the time my bid idea and t/m bills are with in a hundred dollars of each other. i set my price structure at a place that i can make plenty of money. so the only differance is that when bidding i just open my self up to the possability of lossing money. if you think that you makeing more money bidding than you need to revise you price table for t/m work

[Gravel Rat]

I looked up the side on the dozer you have holy crap thats small its about the same size as the little International I run time to time. When you said dozer this is what I'am thinking of as its all we have around here.

[Dirty Water]

Thats why they are called finish dozers Rat :) You should read entire posts before you reply.

Secondly, If I ever saw someone trying to finish grade a soccer field with a excavator I'd have to pull over and have a good laugh.

[Gravel Rat]

He didn't meantion he was building a school field :confused:

Also when he said bulldozer around here a bulldozer is like the D-8 I posted earlier little bulldozers like that are non existant around here if they were around it was in the early 70s more like the 60s.

Like mentioned when I worked on a school field the old 740 Champion did most of the work. If we need grader work done the highways maintenance contractor has a 14G Cat with wheel wobblies it works good plus the operator they have has 25 years experience on graders. The engineers have tested his skills and found he could get grades within 3/4s of inch.

[Dirty Water]

Almost every contractor here has a D3 sized dozer and a D6 sized. A few have D8's and D9's. Of course, by the time you moving that much dirt, there are better alternatives.

The fact of the matter is that different area's use different techniques, and your area is pretty unusual compared to the majority of the US, so you shouldn't be so surprised when people do things differently.

[Gravel Rat]

I guess we have more experienced operators on excavators because as I mentioned 95% of the jobs are done with a excavator fullsize or mini.

There are very few excavation contractors that have any operators that can run a bulldozer. Even in forestry operations for road building bulldozers are rarely used its all done with 35-40 ton excavators and those guys can cut perfect grades.

One of the contractors right now is stripping a 10 to 20 foot layer of topsoil and overburden off of a 10 acre area all done with excavators and articulated trucks.

[ksss]

The job you mentioned GR should be done with a excavator. There are very few dozers here as well. Some areas across the country they are very popular, some not so much. I ran a new CASE at Tomahawk, Wi. I would love to spend all day in one of those machines. Very easy to run and very comfortable. With a capable operator, I am sure there is a lot of work that you could do with one.

[Gravel Rat]

That little Case dozer that dozerman has would be handy to have I didn't realize how small it was but it would be a good machine for doing the light jobs. I think thou with the CTLs becoming more popular which we are starting to see them around here now they will be used for finish grading etc.

[Dirt Digger2]

those dozers are great...i use a 550G longtrack..they're strong and can go anywhere...plus i like the throttle pedal as opposed to a decel pedal, i feel like i have alittle more control.

[Mr. Vern]

I am amazed that we have a debate going about which is better - a Dozer or an excavator! The 2 are designed for completely different roles. I have a decent size excavator (Cat 325L), but wouldn't even think of using it to put a finish grade on 2 acres. Yeah it can be done, but there is no way it can compete with a properly sized dozer for that job. You would have to have a grade setter staking that job on a very tight grid in order to maintain a consistent grade. Even though I own the excavator, I would sooner rent the dozer than to use the wrong piece of equipment for the job. Of course, if I was going to rent I would get a 14G out there and be done in no more than 2 hours and would have the tightest tolerances possible.
If you own the dozer and your tolerances on the grade are not real tight, I would just run the iron you have if the extra hours didn't add up to much more than the rental of the blade.

[dozerman21]

I'm not really sure how this thread got turned into which machines should be used for what.:rolleyes: My original question was what to charge for the job because it's bigger than most that I do. I'm using my 550H dozer to strip the off the old sod and rough it, and my CT332 to carry the sod off the lot and Harley Rake. It would make no sense to rent a bigger dozer for the job. It will take a little longer, but hey, smoke 'em if you got 'em!

Gammon and RockSet 'N Grade- Thanks for the prices of your similar jobs. If anybody else has any numbers, I'd appreciate their opinions.

Dirt Digger 2- Yeah, they are great dozers. I'm on my 3rd 550, but my family has owned probably 15 Case dozers. The G's are nice but I hated messing with those shims on the blade. I've always ran the Power Turn's, but I think I might go to a Hystat after my current set of track wear out. The Hystat will take a little getting used to, but you can get them with a factory cab w/heat and AC. I'm debating between the Deere 450J and the Case 650K. I'm hoping Case releases a smaller hystat that's the same size as the Deere 450J before I go to buy one. Right now I'm leaning toward the Case since we've had such good luck with them, plus the have a tilt over cab to reach all the pumps and hydraulic lines.

[Dirt Digger2]

i know this is getting off topic but dozerman i thought case has a small dozer in producion now...i thought they have the same size as the old 550 in production....only complaint i have on the case, but its probably the same on all dozers (i've only ever run case) is the fact you have to raise the blade to change the oil...i hate dangling my legs under the raised blade while i drop the belly hatch to get to the oil pan...just something i always hated to do...you never know if those blades will drop and trap you down there.

[dozerman21]

Dirt Digger2- You shouldn't have to remove any belly pan to get to the drain plug.:confused: On the three models that I've ran (E, G, and H series) there is a hole app. 3 in. in diameter to get to the plug. The way I change the oil in mine is, I leave it on my low-boy, spin it around so it's horizontal with the trailer, and walk it to the edge of the deck. If you leave the blade in the air, it gives you plenty of room to crawl in there and get under the machine. **Make sure you support the blade somehow it it's in the air! Like you said, if it came down it would crush you. I use one of my 14' boom chains and wrap it around the blade on one end, and I wrap the other end around the ROPS where they meet the hood, and I take the slack out. If you don't have ROPS on yours, tie it to the handle by the dust bowl on the hood.

My local Case dealer still won't confirm whether or not Case is releasing a 550 size Hystat anytime soon. Only the 1150. I think they're just trying to sell me a 650K.:hammerhead:

[Dirt Digger2]

ours has a little trap door custom made i guess that covers the hole where the drain plug is...i dont have to remove the belly pan...that would be hell, but regardless i still hate crawling under there

[dozerman21]

Now that I think about it, our 855D crawler loader has a small plate that you have to take off first to get to the drain plug. It's probably the same thing.

[AWJ Services]

Dozerman

What is your opinion on the Case 855 loader?

How does it compare too the JD and cats that are similar sizes as far as operating controls,hyd power maint ,etc

I am in the market for loader that size.

[dozerman21]

AWJ- The 855D has been a strong, versitle machine that we've used mainly for loading tri-axles, but also for clearing wooded areas and doing light demo work. It has the Power Turn transmission like my dozer, only it's the older style where it's between your legs instead of on your left side. It will lift whatever you put in the bucket. It has good power, but if you get into heavy mud, you have to run in low. The weight of the machine with mud caked into the tracks makes for a hard pull, much like an 850 size dozer will do. This is only in the sh!t you don't want to work in. I don't have any specs on it. I think it weighs about 20,000 lbs. We bought it new and it's only got around 2,500 hours on it. We don't use it as often as we used to, but it definetly has it's place and it's there when we need it. Case stopped making them sometime around the early 90's, I think. With the big boom in skid loader sales and CTL's I guess the market wasn't demanding them.

I'm not as familiar with the comparable Deere's and Cat's, but I know on the older dozers and loaders, the Case's with the Power Turn transmissions were hard to beat. They're still a reliable and stong machine, even in a Hystat world.:drinkup:

[AWJ Services]

I'm not as familiar with the comparable Deere's and Cat's, but I know on the older dozers and loaders, the Case's with the Power Turn transmissions were hard to beat. They're still a reliable and stong machine, even in a Hystat world

I will try too do some research on it ,but exactly what is a "power turn" transmission?

The JD 455/555 line seems comparable in size.

What do you pull your equipment with?

[Dirt Digger2]

I will try too do some research on it ,but exactly what is a "power turn" transmission?

The JD 455/555 line seems comparable in size.

What do you pull your equipment with?

power turn transmission is bassically HI/Lo tanny. theres 2 levers on your left side, left lever is for left track and right lever is for right track...putting one forward while the other back essentially is like putting 1 track in high gear while keeping the other in low gear causing the dozer to turn to the side thats in Lo.

however thats not the only way to turn these machines, when you start getting close to houses and obstacles you can leave both levers in Lo and use the individual track brakes to steer

[dozerman21]

power turn transmission is bassically HI/Lo tanny. theres 2 levers on your left side, left lever is for left track and right lever is for right track...putting one forward while the other back essentially is like putting 1 track in high gear while keeping the other in low gear causing the dozer to turn to the side thats in Lo.

however thats not the only way to turn these machines, when you start getting close to houses and obstacles you can leave both levers in Lo and use the individual track brakes to steer


Well said. Before the Hystats came out with counter-rotation, the Power Turn transmissions had the best push power through a turn because both tracks keep spinning instead of one track braking or being neutral. I always try to use the Hi/Low tracks for turning when I'm in a heavy push, and use the pedal brakes for light/finish grading (or turning in a real tight spot). I'm getting ready to replace the brakes on mine in a couple weeks and I'm not looking forward to it. I've never done it, but I think I can figure it out.

AWJ- I have an L-9000 tandem axle with a 25 ton low-boy trailer that I use daily. We also have an L-9000 tandem dump with a 20 ton tag trailer.

[Dirt Digger2]

good luck replacing brakes, we send ours to amish men to do all the real intense stuff...i assume you have to split the tracks so make sure that you have a come-a-long winch handy when you need to pull them back together.

theres a real nice 550LT on ebay right now with cab and power steer, just giving you a heads up in case you wanted to go that route instead of buying new...


as far as AWJ goes, heres a picture of what the power turn looks like...its the 2 levers closest to the right.

[dozerman21]

Yeah, I know it's gonna be a pain in the a$$ replacing those brakes, but I know a mechanic that is going to help me. Actually, I'm pretty sure I dont need to split the machine. I've talked to a few guys (including Case mechanics) that said I can go through the floorboard and drop the belly pan to get to the discs and O-rings. We'll see. I know I can't afford to have the dealer do it. My machine is pretty tight other than the brakes, and they're not completly shot. I'm gonna try to hold off on buying another dozer until this set of tracks wears out. BTW- That looks like the same cab that I have on mine. Is it an ICC brand?

Also, did you know you can replace the U-pattern Forward/Reverse lever with a straight pattern F/R? It's probably not a big deal to you since your used to it, we've just had the dealer switch patterns before we picked them up. It's just a little simpler.

[Scag48]

I hate that U pattern, really, really lame. If I ever buy a dozer it's going to be a hystat.

[AWJ Services]

Thanks for all the info guys.