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NNJLandman
12-13-2006, 07:09 PM
Estimate for wall:

Need a little help from the hardscape gurus...trying to figure out this wall. The wall goes from 19" to 41" high and is 56 foot long. Now my problem is figuring out the amount of block I need, the wall is even all the way across but built into a hill so as you walk along the wall it goes from tall to short. Can someone give me a bit of help. Planning on using versa-lok standard block, the material calculator said I needed 393 block, I got that by coming up with an average among the height in the wall...not sure if thats right. Lemme know what yall might charge for a job like this thanks.

Thanks

Jeff

Mike33
12-13-2006, 08:29 PM
I am basicly self taught on every thing down to estimating. What i do on grade changes say 50' long and changing from 2-6:. I would measure length 10' at 2' , maybe next length of only 7' at 3 and balance of wall in these incriments. Its tough to figure but i have always been close and never lost money yet. And maybe figure a small % more. I cant help you with versa loc because i dont use the product. Im sure there will be more posts and maybe more helpful of what i explained.
Mike

evergreenlandscapes
12-14-2006, 10:42 PM
In a nutshell......Without going into Math and Geometry 101, you have 147 true face feet of wall to build. That does not take into consideration cuts ,curves , waste,etc.Versa Loks website claims the standard wall unit is
6" x 16".So...
Each wall unit is .67 square feet/per block. You will need approx. 219 blocks + caps to build this wall. That will probably be a little more than you need , but I would rather have a little extra than not enough. This is all true of course if the wall is what you said it was. For the future , break it down into square feet and square inches if you need to. Makes it easier Hope it helps . As far as how much, cant divulge our pricing structure but do a search and you will find others that will.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-14-2006, 11:18 PM
Thats a pretty simple wall, just get an Idea of what you want to make and how long it will take you to make it. I would probabbly just figure 36" tall on average to be safe with grading and burying the first course or so. Or actually you gotta figure either 34" or 40" if you include the cap block, but anyway you got about 168 face foot of wall to build. Personally I wont touch a wall for less than $15 a foot installed, and am usually between 20 and 30 depending on what type of versa lok and how much grading to do. with a 3 foot wall though, there shouldnt be alot of grading to do, so I would possibly be about $20.00 a foot for standard unweathered V-lok, and a few bucks more for weathered standard and even a few more say 27.50 for mosaic. So for standard unweathered V-lok I would possibly be around 3360.00 if it was a days work for three of us, and that is about how long it should take.

Not telling you what to do but if it were me I would probabbly order 6 cubes of standard block, 1 cube of cap block , 4 tons base, 5 tons clean stone (#57),a few peices of preforated pipe, case of adhesive, couple bags of pins and go to work. Then return the 7 pallets and a few blocks when you are finished and call it a good days work

Mike33
12-14-2006, 11:54 PM
I was in doubt of your total blocks. Tonight i put on my glasses and seen your wall was not 19'. :hammerhead:
Mike

zedosix
12-15-2006, 09:29 AM
Factor in one block on average is buried you will require 228 blocks plus caps.
Just send me 10% of your job profit, and we'll call it even. OK

NNJLandman
12-18-2006, 09:28 PM
I appreciate everyones response,

GroundScapesInc....I'm a little confused at your pricing, I've figured out the job to be more around $5000.00 and definently to take more then a day, even if I had 2 guys plus myself....theres no way we could install this in a day...the removal and prep. would be at the least a day.

Jeff

PAPS Landscape Design
12-18-2006, 09:42 PM
NNJ, your $5000.00 is about right for the wall, not sure what prep is involved, I have no idea what that Grounds inc. guys is talking about and I wouldnt listen to a thing he is saying... 1st off, hes telling you to order (6) skids of the wall stone, well each skid has 48 blocks @1.5 sq ft per so your talking 72 sq. ft per skid... figure the wall around 140-165 sq. so you need like 2 + skids, I havent a clue where he came up with (6) skids. nothing like stockpiling 3.5 skids at you house. even if the wall was 56' x 40'' you would only have 196 sq, but you said it goes from 19'' and up so I figure around 150 sq. an for you, yes its probably a 2-3 day job, but we could do it in 1 day if we hustled...

paps

PAPS Landscape Design
12-18-2006, 09:59 PM
NNJ, check that, you would need (5-6) pallets, I made and error on the calc. for the pallet, each pallet has 32 sq. ft to it, NOT 72, so you would need 5-6 pallets as Grounds said, and I apologize for that error Grounds, your calcs were correct.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-18-2006, 11:58 PM
I appreciate everyones response,

GroundScapesInc....I'm a little confused at your pricing, I've figured out the job to be more around $5000.00 and definently to take more then a day, even if I had 2 guys plus myself....theres no way we could install this in a day...the removal and prep. would be at the least a day.

Jeff


What is it that confuses you? I just reread my post and it seems pretty simple to understand to me.
As for the pricing, I never said that you should charge 3300, But what I did do is answer your question "let me know what yall might charge for a job like this".
Like I said I would probabbly be around 3300 for a days work. If you need to make 5000 on the job, then that is what you should charge. especially if you will be there for more than a day. But a 3' wall and only 200-240 block to lay, we would have the wall done by lunch and only have grading, seedin, cleanup to do after lunch. (depending on how much grading to do before we could start the wall).

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-19-2006, 12:02 AM
NNJ, check that, you would need (5-6) pallets, I made and error on the calc. for the pallet, each pallet has 32 sq. ft to it, NOT 72, so you would need 5-6 pallets as Grounds said, and I apologize for that error Grounds, your calcs were correct.


I wasnt trying to be correct, its just what I would order for the job, to get it done.

GreenMonster
12-19-2006, 07:58 PM
But a 3' wall and only 200-240 block to lay, we would have the wall done by lunch and only have grading, seedin, cleanup to do after lunch. (depending on how much grading to do before we could start the wall).

GSI,

With all due respect, if you can get up a 55' wall, 2-3' high by lunch time, you are either:

A. Full of sh!t
B. Building a piece of sh!t
C. Smoking some bad sh!t

P.S. help make the industry better for all of us, and raise your prices

cedarcroft
12-19-2006, 08:11 PM
I agree with Green monster. It would take about half a day to get the base down correctly (if you like it level and true). Afew guys working hard could easily get 240 sq ft up in a day, but to say that could be done in half a day is some serious blowhard bullsh!t. But thats whatwe need around here, more misinformation:rolleyes:

Mike33
12-19-2006, 11:02 PM
We do 4-5 skids a day on a good day, but not always. That would be base course down and no stepping. But most of the time 4 skids. Now i havent seen many crews out work us since we dont eat luch only because we dont care to. Any one doing this in a half day:nono: I will pay admission to watch.
Mike

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-19-2006, 11:12 PM
GSI,

With all due respect, if you can get up a 55' wall, 2-3' high by lunch time, you are either:

A. Full of sh!t
B. Building a piece of sh!t
C. Smoking some bad sh!t

P.S. help make the industry better for all of us, and raise your prices



Maybe I should be as nice as you with this post, but I would only be acting fifteen or so if I did.

I will however say that, I am none of the above, and that the walls we build are perfect.
We lay alot of Versa-Lok (40 cubes in 3 days last week), which helps in being very productive with a certain product. I could not install any other wall material, that fast, but I do feel very strongly that I could install a 55' versa lok wall in half a day.
I could have the area excavated in less than 30 min (7:00 to 7:30)
Tamp the gound (7:30 to 8:00)
Install Base (8:00 to 9:30)
Build wall (9:30 to 11:30)
Install cap Block (11:30 to 12:30)

Does this seem impossible to you greenmonster? Just because you cant do it, that does not mean that its impossible.
I know of a 3 man crew that can lay 1500 feet (averages 1000) of pavers in a day, My crew cant do that, but I dont go bashing him cause he can.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-19-2006, 11:49 PM
I agree with Green monster. It would take about half a day to get the base down correctly (if you like it level and true). Afew guys working hard could easily get 240 sq ft up in a day, but to say that could be done in half a day is some serious blowhard bullsh!t. But thats whatwe need around here, more misinformation:rolleyes:


The mature people are coming out to play.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-19-2006, 11:51 PM
We do 4-5 skids a day on a good day, but not always. That would be base course down and no stepping. But most of the time 4 skids. Now i havent seen many crews out work us since we dont eat luch only because we dont care to. Any one doing this in a half day:nono: I will pay admission to watch.
Mike


You dont have to pay to come watch.

cedarcroft
12-20-2006, 01:00 AM
I am sorry for being immature but I just haven't figured out a way to level 55 linear feet of base course in 90 minutes. I fully agree that if the base course was set and leveled you could do the rest of the wall in the time frame you set above, assuming no cutting or limited cutting. I am not a seasoned vet like some people here, but I still think the timing is off. Not being immature, not criticizing your work, just saying there is no fast shortcut to leveling the base course. I don't care what kind of block you use, you still have to bust out the levels and mallet and take the time to make sure the base is solid and level. even using a transit and pulling a string line takes time. Maybe I am wrong, but if I am, then enlighten me and the forum on how to quickly install a base course properly.

Mike33
12-20-2006, 08:36 AM
You dont have to pay to come watch.
Are you filling every course? I use ab and have to fill and sweep every course some times this take as long as laying the block.
Mike

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-20-2006, 09:01 AM
I am sorry for being immature but I just haven't figured out a way to level 55 linear feet of base course in 90 minutes. I fully agree that if the base course was set and leveled you could do the rest of the wall in the time frame you set above, assuming no cutting or limited cutting. I am not a seasoned vet like some people here, but I still think the timing is off. Not being immature, not criticizing your work, just saying there is no fast shortcut to leveling the base course. I don't care what kind of block you use, you still have to bust out the levels and mallet and take the time to make sure the base is solid and level. even using a transit and pulling a string line takes time. Maybe I am wrong, but if I am, then enlighten me and the forum on how to quickly install a base course properly.


Cedarcroft,
Personally, I could not install the base in that amount of time (my best crew foreman can), In my times above, I was refering to just the base not the actually base course. The way I do the base and base course is different from the way my crew foreman does it, so I will tell you how he does it.
First we are all assuming this wall has no step ups.
I wont say that this is the industry correct way, but its how it gets done for us
1. Excavate (check for approx level as you go)
2. Tamp ground
3. install 21a (we would end up with 6"-10" of base for a 3' wall) The varieance is because the actually ground isnt perfectly level as stated above (just level over the 55' with high and low spots) But a minimium of 6" everywhere. I know that it is probabbly politically (to some people)correct to have the ground perfectly level, but with a 3' wall I would gaurantee that there would never be a problem
4. Put down approx half of base, then compact.
5. Know for the leveling base. Bring enough base to give us 6" in the lowest part. While the base stone is still loose, take rakes and get the base fairly level.
6.Take a 24" level and level the base front to back by screeding with the level and an 8' to 12' straight 2 x 4 with the same 2' level to level the base side to side
7. After the base stone has been leveled perfectly, compact and check level again
8. fill in all low spots that where created during compaction and make perfectly level again.
9. compact.
10. throw done approx 1/4 inch of concrete sand and level once again with the 24" level and start laying blocks, checking each block in all directions as you go.


I know some people say not to use the sand, but we do use approx 1/4 inch.

Like I said above I am not claiming this is the best or the most correct way to do this, I was just answering your question cedarcroft.

Also like I said above this is not the exact way I would do this, but my two best men have found this to be the fastest way for them, and they do it very fast and every wall we do comes out perfect.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-20-2006, 09:06 AM
Are you filling every course? I use ab and have to fill and sweep every course some times this take as long as laying the block.
Mike


Mike,
No I have never used Allen Block or any other wall material except Versa-lok.
versa-lok does not have to be filled, just pinned. And on a 3' wall we wouldnt even back fill til we were done with the wall (someone will let me have it for that I guess)

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-20-2006, 09:12 AM
We have got a seat wall to build around a firepit in a week or so, It will be approx 55' long and 22" tall counting the cap block. I know this wall isnt as big as the one we are talking about, but it does have to be in a perfect half circle.
Ill post the honest exact times on how long it took us to do each portion of this install, maybe my times will be off. But I wont be overwhelmed with pride enough to admit it.

zedosix
12-20-2006, 09:33 AM
Leveling 55 linear feet once your base course is down and compacted is possible to do in an hour and a half. We do not lay and level one block at a time. We will screed using the same method for brick and lay the entire 55' at a time. No problems there. We have been using this method for years, small planters, large walls, they are all leveled and laid the same way. After we will take a 2 or 3' board and give them a good hit with the sledge hammer to take out any unevenness. Walls turn out very nice. We don't use allan block for that very reason of having to fill each and every block. Too much wasted time. Just thought I would throw that in.

Mike33
12-20-2006, 05:23 PM
I like the hollow core concept, but opinions vary.
Mike

cedarcroft
12-20-2006, 05:45 PM
I was taught to install the base of RCA or whatever you are using,compact in 2" lifts, level that as close as possible using a transit or whatever you use and then screeding a very thin layer of stone dust or sand (1/4"). At that point the block goes down and we level with a small level front to back and side to side and then level against the last block or 2 with a 4' level, checking for gaps etc. there is alot of pounding with the mallet and checking/rechecking with the level.
the next wall I do I am going to try the way zedosix said and see if it works out. Believe me, I want to do base courses faster, but I want it perfect too.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-20-2006, 07:08 PM
I was taught to install the base of RCA or whatever you are using,compact in 2" lifts, level that as close as possible using a transit or whatever you use and then screeding a very thin layer of stone dust or sand (1/4"). At that point the block goes down and we level with a small level front to back and side to side and then level against the last block or 2 with a 4' level, checking for gaps etc. there is alot of pounding with the mallet and checking/rechecking with the level.
the next wall I do I am going to try the way zedosix said and see if it works out. Believe me, I want to do base courses faster, but I want it perfect too.

If your base is perfect, then the blocks you put on it should be perfect as well. Maybe just need a tap here and there with a mallet or you could use the method zedosix mentioned with the board(it makes good sense).
I leveled one block at a time until we started installing pavers, then it hit me, that if leveling of the base would work for pavers why not use the same method for block? Havent done it the old way since.

PAPS Landscape Design
12-20-2006, 07:22 PM
I have to agree with Grounds Inc on this one, this wall can be done in 1 day, I know we could get it done in 1 day-1.5 day max, we have used the 1 block at time level method and also the screeding method, just depends on type of wall.

NNJLandman
12-20-2006, 07:42 PM
This type of wall does require step ups hence the question on the estimate its into a hill, plus there will be removal of an old cinder block wall which I didnt mention before.

Jeff

GreenMonster
12-20-2006, 08:09 PM
I have to agree with Grounds Inc on this one, this wall can be done in 1 day, I know we could get it done in 1 day-1.5 day max, we have used the 1 block at time level method and also the screeding method, just depends on type of wall.

he didn't say 1-1.5 days. He said by lunch.

GSI, I'm sorry, I just don't see it. I know there are outfits that are very productivity driven. I'm kinda picky, and I would bet our average sf installation times are slower than the industry average. I like doing lots of curves, cutting into boulders, etc etc. Each of our jobs tends to be more custom. I aim for perfection, with effeciency.

I just think you're seriously stretching the truth. I mean, it's hard to do anything in half a day. Unless you don't have the mobilization/start-up and clean-up efforts that the rest of have, like unloading equipment, staging your tools, clean-up, spoils removal, how can you possibly install this in HALF A DAY?

I would really have to see it to believe it. And you're right, the 1/4" sand is wrong, as is backfilling more than 24" at a time.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-20-2006, 09:17 PM
Green Monster you make it sound like I said that I could have the whole install done in 5 hours. I never said that.
I dont see how anyone who does any decent size jobs sees this as being difficult.
Its only 5 cubes of stone, and its only approx 24" tall on average.
You can think what you want, but im not stretching the truth.

I do appreciate you acting a little more mature now and leaving the name calling behind.

Believe me your no more of a perfectionist then I am, However I dont see how a wall this simple matters how much of a perfectionist you are, we are talking about a real simple wall that it doesnt take alot of brains to figure out how to make it perfect. When I think of perfection its usually not in 3' tall standard wall. On a wall like this its either a good job or a bad one, there really isnt an in between.

waltero
12-20-2006, 09:23 PM
I haven't built a concrete unit wall yet, but I did get certified with NCMA via Versa-lok and in the course they showed pictures of people using concrete forms to level the base material. I have used this method for patios and walkways and I find that it does speed things up because I don't have to keep measuring to see if I am close. I double check a couple times with a laser level throughout the job to make sure nothing moves but it gives me the ability to work in lifts, and continue working without adding too much material and I can get a visual of how much I need to add. Doing it this way, I feel that I get my base to be as perfect as can be, there are no dips or fluctuations in the base. I compact, compact and then compact some more and when I am done I am confident that the base is where I want it to be, at the level and pitch that I want, without any fluctuations.

Now I do have some jobs lined up for next year that involve building the walls and I am going to use the concrete forms to level the base material. Based on the results of the patios, I feel that I can get the base right where I want it and I shouldn't need the sand. I will have to wait until next year but If I needed any it would be a very small amount.

The concrete forms that I use are the size of 2x4's, but are flexible and I use lots of stakes to secure them. I place the stakes well outside (usually much better then the depth of the base) the area that I am working so I end up over-building a little bit but I have lots of clay up here so it doesn't hurt. These concrete forms will allow you to do any curve, corner or step up and will make it easy to check the if the wall is level.

I can't comment on the time factor but I just wanted to see if anybody else does it this way. Let me know if anybody has a better way or if this is the method that you use when you do the whole wall at one time.

You can check out the forms here and let me know what you think.
http://www.plasticforms.com/plasticforms.htm

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-20-2006, 09:28 PM
This type of wall does require step ups hence the question on the estimate its into a hill, plus there will be removal of an old cinder block wall which I didnt mention before.

Jeff


Jeff
sorry your question has gotten so far off topic, when I originally posted I was just trying to give you a little input from another Company, hoping to help you out. Maybe I should have answered the question as if I were talking about when I first started doing walls.

If you havent done alot of wall installs, it will probally take you a day or so to excavate and haul off the old cinder block wall (depending on what kind of equipment you have. Then the wall itself will take another 2 days probablly.
As far as money, your the only one that can decide. As I said before I could probabbly do the wall for $3300 if it was a days work but with the old cinderblock and a few stepups it would possibly be a little more time and money.
I was only said that we could be done with a wall like that in possibly one day to let you know why my approx price was where it was at, kind of hinting that if tit took you longer that you should possibly be a bit higher.
Hope the wall goes well.
Good luck

neversatisfiedj
12-20-2006, 10:44 PM
Why is this thread still alive. From '02.

zedosix
12-20-2006, 11:13 PM
Why is this thread still alive. From '02.

I believe it was started last week.

GreenMonster
12-20-2006, 11:23 PM
Green Monster you make it sound like I said that I could have the whole install done in 5 hours. I never said that.


But a 3' wall and only 200-240 block to lay, we would have the wall done by lunch and only have grading, seedin, cleanup to do after lunch. (depending on how much grading to do before we could start the wall).

Actually, you kinda did. But let's just forget it, ok. It just seemed as though this was just more bad advice being given here, which seems to be the norm lately.

I know a 55' x 3' wall is straightforward and simple. However, let's not oversimplify the process and make guys believe it's the norm to lay down a few truckloads of block per day.

GroundScapesIncorporated
12-21-2006, 08:51 AM
I never intended on making it sound like it would be normal to do the wall in a day (2-3 days maybe). The only reason I even metioned a day or a half day was to answer the original question in this thread, I just thought as though since I said that I could possibly do a wall that simple for $3460.00 that it was important to include that would be under the basis if the wall could be done in a day.
I feel as though not stating that would have been misinformation (just the oppisite of what your saying GM), because if I was on this job for two days then the price I qouted would be alot more money.


Also, the only thing I said would be done by lunch is the wall, not the job.

zedosix
12-21-2006, 09:22 AM
Where do I buy the popcorn.

ooo
03-15-2007, 06:29 PM
We have got a seat wall to build around a firepit in a week or so, It will be approx 55' long and 22" tall counting the cap block. I know this wall isnt as big as the one we are talking about, but it does have to be in a perfect half circle.
Ill post the honest exact times on how long it took us to do each portion of this install, maybe my times will be off. But I wont be overwhelmed with pride enough to admit it.

How long did it end up taking you to do that half circle GSI ?

mrusk
03-16-2007, 11:06 AM
When i have a wall with varying heights i normally measure 10 feet at a time.

If it comes out to 7 and 3/4 pallets of block i will order 7 and pickup what i need once i use the 7 pallets up.

One wall that changed heights i was off alittle bit on measurement. Now i got 60 versalok on pallets in my bone yard! Luckily i charged for them!

Always over estimate the block, order less then you need, and list less sq face feet then it actually is on the contract.