ICPI Certification...is it really worth it?

[LB1234]

Thinking about taking the ICPI certification course this winter. However, I'm not sure of its worth. IMHO, its seems like its just another piece of paper stating I'm certified. Take a two day course pass a test and walla...I'm certified...even if I never laid a paver in my life. Sorry, I just don't see it.

The reason why I ask...

My cost for paver installation is anywhere from 18-22 per square foot. However, I'm losing a lot of bids due to price. Customers tell me they can get it done for between 12-15 per square foot. I can't go that low...I just won't make the money I need to make to stay afloat.

So I'm wondering if having a 'certification' will give me an edge in the bidding war and really justify my price. Does anyone who has the certification find that that gives you a 'leg-up' so to speak? Also, perhaps the course will provide me with methods to trim some time off the job and hence save money in the long run?

Thoughts/opinions are appreciated.

[Travel'n Trees]

I weighting this out and think that it isn't woth it.

[Total Landscape Solutions]

I'd recommend it to anybody who cares about becoming better at the trade. It is what you get out of it. I had been laying for 12 years before I took the course, and still believe it was well worth it. The amount of technical information gained and new sales ideas were well worth the time and money.

The instructors I had were excellent. Both had hardscaping business of their own for many years with a multiple number of installation crews during the season. They related the course material to real work applications, and always added their own tricks and secrets of installation that made their jobs not only more profitable, but easier to manage.

Some of the material I already knew. Some of the technical material helped to better explain why we do what we do in any given step to an install. The material will also help me to better explain the process to any new clients with the tables, graphs, and illustrations provided in the manuals.

If you could not tell by now, I'd recommend the course to almost anybody.

[Travel'n Trees]

I started at one Thursday disorganized I left went and dug trees the rest of the day. No books, not enough test. Wasted my time belgard wants me to drive 4 hours away and they pay for hotel and class. What a joke. Unfortunantly the help for me dropped my truck in a tree spade hole, called my wife to get them unstuck and worked a hour and a half in the 5 hours I was gone this time. Yes I need a new foreman.

[Total Landscape Solutions]

TT

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I beleive that the orginization of the class os 50% ICPI and 50% sponsors. Sounds like maybe the sponsor didn't have their stuff together.

My class was sponsored by Nickolock and was the total opposite of your mishap. Well organized, very well lead by the instructors, and we were well fed.

Sorry about your wasted day.

[PSUturf]

Certification improves your professional image as well as the image of the industry. I think a good selling point would be to show a customer photos of a poorly installed paver job (heaved edge restraints, uneven surfaces, puddling, crooked joint lines). Explain that these problems occurred because ICPI guidelines were not followed.

LB1234: how does the quality of your work compare to those who are charging much less per square foot? I'm guessing it's probably better based on the prices you charge. You'll hardly ever hear somebody say the work from the low bidder was high quality. The low ballers won't be certified because they probably can't justify spending a few hundred dollars to do it and they probably don't have the brain power to pass the test. I frequently have customers tell me they hired us, even though we are expensive, because we are the experts.

[LB1234]

LB1234: how does the quality of your work compare to those who are charging much less per square foot? I'm guessing it's probably better based on the prices you charge. You'll hardly ever hear somebody say the work from the low bidder was high quality. The low ballers won't be certified because they probably can't justify spending a few hundred dollars to do it and they probably don't have the brain power to pass the test. I frequently have customers tell me they hired us, even though we are expensive, because we are the experts.


Honestly, I'm not sure about the quality of work of the others. I can say that the paver jobs we have done we haven't gotten any call backs due to improper drainage, walls leaning the wrong direction, settling, etc. With that said, we've only been doing this a few years and we are limited in what we have done since we don't advertise as a hardscaping company (yet).

What I can comment on is the other company's labor. Mostly, its a latin-american workforce. I don't think this has much impact on quality (again don't really know) but I do believe it impacts the cost. Please, I'm not trying to start a latin bashing thread...just my obeservation.

I'll try and post a pic of our work and you can comment on it.

[LB1234]

We did this wall and small landing for the deck along with some flagstone steps to an inground pool. We also regraded the entire backyard. FYI, we worked for a GC on this one.

This job has a lot of unseen work. Two drain tiles and a total of three seperate drainage lines (homeowner had some serious water issues). After the rains we received here in the spring the homeowner called and said he was very happy with our work and the drainage was helping significantly.

Comments are appreciated. We are still learning.

[John Zaprala]

Iam ICPI and NCMA certified. I'm not going to tell you that it's essential, but I will tell you by bidding jobs by the square foot you're not being competitive. In ICPI they review why you should bid jobs based on time and material. It's not difficult to do. Every job is unique: is it accessible? are there a lot of cuts? steps? these are all factors that affect time and price. How can you say a 1000 sq ft. patio costs say $16 a sq ft no matter where it is or how complex the design. I found that the ICPI class was very enlightening to realize where you are making mistakes and how to run your jobsite more efficiently. I personally went to the ICPI class sponsered by EP Henry in Atlantic City and the class was very professional and the networking at these classes is priceless.

[LB1234]

I'm well aware of not pricing simply by square foot, agreed, there are way to many variables for each job. My price of 18-22 per square is any average. For instance, one of the bids for a walkway this past fall was 23.5/sqft due to the limited site access (small backyard with fence) and multiple turns in the walkway that required a significant amount of cutting. Same goes for the lawn care end... two half-acre lots next door to each other can have different prices.

I guess my problem is the whole thing of just take a course and become certified. IMHO, it makes the certification process a little tainted and undervalued. Same thing for obtaining a pesticide license...take a test pass it and you are certified...without every using any type of application equipment.

I'm going to wind up taking the course (probablly the one in AC) just so it ups my perceived value in the eyes of my customer.

[Techo-Bloc]

Technology changes very fast in our industry, and ICPI does a great job keeping up with those changes, Therefore I highly recommend their courses for beginners and veterans, and go for the knowlege not the certificate, because all the certificate states is you were subjected to the material.

Knowledge = Efficiency.

For more classes I also recommend seminars by Charles Vander Kooi. He does seminars on Estimating, Bidding, Job Costing, Accounting, plus many more directly related to Hardscaping. check out www.vanderkoi.com

[Allure]

correction: the link is http://www.vanderkooi.com/

[John Zaprala]

I highly recommend the one in AC b/c the instructors I had were contractors and also MEMBERS of ICPI which means they actually vote within ICPI. The instructors I had were both very sucessful and gave a lot of tips and brought the class into the discussions. ICPI is really for establishing professionalism within the industry to separate the hackers from the pros.

[LB1234]

Well, I wound up taking the ICPI course. I'd rate the overall course as good. However, the two instructors we had were hands down great. Combined they had something like 50 years experience. Even better, they often had different/unique answers/solutions (neither one right or wrong persay) to specific questions.

The material that ICPI provides for the course is okay. I downloaded it before I went to the course and read a chapter or two a day. What was great is that the instructors didn't even really use the book...they had there own overhead slides with them with there points...which I thought was nice. Nothings worse than having something read to you.

What was even better was the openness of the course. People were asking questions all the time and the instructors encouraged it. It really sparked some interesting conversations/debates and provided some unique even time saving solutions.

As for the test...I felt it was a joke. 75 true false and 25 multiple choice. I mean the one about CBR standing for Canadian Bacon Restaurant I laughed out loud. I haven't gotten my test results back yet but I'm pretty confident that I passed with over an 80% (you need 70).

Overall I'd say the course is well worth the two days and few dollars it costs. However, I can see that course completely bomb with the wrong instructors.

[jrc lawncare]

Well, I wound up taking the ICPI course. I'd rate the overall course as good. However, the two instructors we had were hands down great. Combined they had something like 50 years experience. Even better, they often had different/unique answers/solutions (neither one right or wrong persay) to specific questions.

The material that ICPI provides for the course is okay. I downloaded it before I went to the course and read a chapter or two a day. What was great is that the instructors didn't even really use the book...they had there own overhead slides with them with there points...which I thought was nice. Nothings worse than having something read to you.

What was even better was the openness of the course. People were asking questions all the time and the instructors encouraged it. It really sparked some interesting conversations/debates and provided some unique even time saving solutions.

As for the test...I felt it was a joke. 75 true false and 25 multiple choice. I mean the one about CBR standing for Canadian Bacon Restaurant I laughed out loud. I haven't gotten my test results back yet but I'm pretty confident that I passed with over an 80% (you need 70).

Overall I'd say the course is well worth the two days and few dollars it costs. However, I can see that course completely bomb with the wrong instructors.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you actually need a 75 to pass. I just took it & passed with like an 80.

[mrusk]

I took ICPI back in November. I got a 92.

[LB1234]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you actually need a 75 to pass. I just took it & passed with like an 80.


Instructors told us 70 to pass. I dunno maybe they were wrong.

All in all I felt the test was a little on the soft side. I felt like you really didn't need to study...just pay attention during the course and they tell you what to study for the exam. They pointed out..."you need to make note of this for the exam" or "remember that ICPI states xyz for residential pavers"

I dunno kinda cheesy...


Watch I'm saying this and I'll probablly get a 50 on the test and have to open mouth insert foot:laugh:

[Patatoe1]

Hey, this is my first post on this forum, so sorry if I am a noob. Would I need to have some sort of background in hardscaping to take this course? The reason I ask is I work with one other person and we primarily do general garden maintenance, and smaller landscape installations. Lately though we have been asked about a lot of hardscapes, but neither of us have dealt with it before. So we have been referring those customers on to someone else and loosing out on potential profit.

I would like to get into pavers but don't really know where to go to learn.

[kootoomootoo]

Hey, this is my first post on this forum, so sorry if I am a noob. Would I need to have some sort of background in hardscaping to take this course? The reason I ask is I work with one other person and we primarily do general garden maintenance, and smaller landscape installations. Lately though we have been asked about a lot of hardscapes, but neither of us have dealt with it before. So we have been referring those customers on to someone else and loosing out on potential profit.

I would like to get into pavers but don't really know where to go to learn.

$250 and you have all the background. You can even get the 25 most important/relevant questions wrong.

[jrc lawncare]

$250 and you have all the background. You can even get the 25 most important/relevant questions wrong. seems like they ought to set it up, that you need to get a certain amount of those "important" questions right before you even pass. Like when I took my pesticide state exam, you have to get a certain amount of questions about the "label" right, or you don't pass.

[LB1234]

BTW, for any wondering

87 on exam.