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Richard Martin
12-30-2006, 06:08 AM
As you all know Global Warming has been in the news a lot lately. Whether the recent warming trend is a result of global warming or not is the subject for another debate.

If you have noticed in the last couple of years that Burmuda or other southern grasses seem to be invading your once pristine northern fescues and bluegrasses there is a very good reason for it. It's because things are warming up a bit.

The National Arbor Day foundation recently released their updated Plant Hardiness maps and there have been some major changes since 1990. You may want to take a look at it and perhaps adjust your lawn strategies accordingly.

http://www.arborday.org/media/zones.cfm

Comments anyone?

indy2tall
12-30-2006, 08:21 AM
What a total load of CRAP. Please put this garbage where it belongs and that would be on the political board. That map says Indiana changed 2 zones. We changed 2 zones because the overall temp has averaged up one tenth of a degree, yeah right. Now the British have a study out that shows cow farts contribute more to greenhouse gasses that all the cars in the world. I suppose we will have to stop eating beef to please the environuts.

WJW Lawn
12-30-2006, 08:30 AM
Polar Bears may become endangered too, and that could be very bad for coca cola.

Richard Martin
12-30-2006, 09:38 AM
What a total load of CRAP. Please put this garbage where it belongs and that would be on the political board.

I ask that you not politicize this thread. Please take that argument somewhere else. This thread is intended for discussion by those who may have seen changes already and what, if any, changes they intend to make to their business in response. In other words, be an adult.

If you don't like the findings of the National Arborday Foundation take it up with them.

MOW ED
12-30-2006, 09:48 AM
I have to say in my area I have noticed much warmer winters. We are still in the mid to upper 30's and while we have had some snow it is absent now and the ground has no frost whatsoever. My wife is from upper Michigan and they usually have many feet by now but their totals are extremely low in places that should be covered.
No politicising here, you could love or hate arbor day I have no feelings one way or another but I do know they are looking at data and trying to make a point. I don't know if it is global warming or not but my experience is that something is changing as I have lived in the upped midwest all of my life and can testify that over 44 years the winters are getting warmer. Thanks for the thread Richard, and I do think this is in the right place for discussion.

indy2tall
12-30-2006, 01:16 PM
I ask that you not politicize this thread. Please take that argument somewhere else. This thread is intended for discussion by those who may have seen changes already and what, if any, changes they intend to make to their business in response. In other words, be an adult.

If you don't like the findings of the National Arborday Foundation take it up with them.

Your the one who asked for comments Mr Martin but it sounds like you only want to entertain ones that agree with your viewpoint. That is a little close minded and not very adult, don't you think? With all due respect, your thread is political at it's very core.

Each of your original paragraphs had something pertaining directly or indirectly to global warming and you suggested we think about it and then comment how we will be adjusting our lawn strategies without mentioning what you will be doing differently. Well here is my comment and I look forward to hearing how you will be changing your lawn strategy.

I have not witnessed any evidence in the central Indiana area that warm season grasses are taking over so I will be adjusting my lawn strategy exactly 0%. I have also lived in the midwest all of my almost 50 years on this planet and the winters seem just about the same on average. Some are warmer and some are colder and since my full time job for the last 20 years has forced me to work outside everyday of each and every winter I feel at least slightly qualified to make that observation.

Richard Martin
12-30-2006, 01:20 PM
but I do know they are looking at data and trying to make a point. I don't know if it is global warming or not but my experience is that something is changing as I have lived in the upped midwest all of my life and can testify that over 44 years the winters are getting warmer. Thanks for the thread Richard, and I do think this is in the right place for discussion.

No problem Ed.

I'm going to respond to this on a science level...

Yes, it is global warming but the cause is the debatable part that I don't want discussed here. Many (read as 99%) people do not understand that warming and cooling is cyclical. Believe it or not the current plant hardiness map is almost identical to the 1960 version. We've been here before!

Additionally the plant hardiness map is not about average temperatures across a year or even a season. It's what can be expected for a maximum low temperature for any given year. For example my area is zone 8. The lowest average temperature I can expect would be 10 to 20 degrees. That means that I can plant plants that can withstand temperatures down to 10 degrees and expect them to survive a winter.

This relates to grass because in the transistion zone (7) you can get a lot of invasive species of grass like Burmuda. As zone 7 moves north obviously Burmuda problems will move north with it. You may also see grasses like St. Augustine and Centipede moving north too.

Some of these grasses, Centipede in particular, require special techinques which are completely opposite of the requirements of fescues and bluegrasses. How many people know that Centipede needs a pH of 4.5 to 5.5?

Like I said, this is educational, not political.

Richard Martin
12-30-2006, 01:22 PM
I have not witnessed any evidence in the central Indiana area that warm season grasses are taking over so I will be adjusting my lawn strategy exactly 0%. I have also lived in the midwest all of my almost 50 years on this planet and the winters seem just about the same on average. Some are warmer and some are colder and since my full time job for the last 20 years has forced me to work outside everyday of each and every winter I feel at least slightly qualified to make that observation.

See, now that's all you had to say.

tacoma200
12-30-2006, 02:01 PM
Your the one who asked for comments Mr Martin but it sounds like you only want to entertain ones that agree with your viewpoint. That is a little close minded and not very adult, don't you think? With all due respect, your thread is political at it's very core.

Each of your original paragraphs had something pertaining directly or indirectly to global warming and you suggested we think about it and then comment how we will be adjusting our lawn strategies without mentioning what you will be doing differently. Well here is my comment and I look forward to hearing how you will be changing your lawn strategy.

I have not witnessed any evidence in the central Indiana area that warm season grasses are taking over so I will be adjusting my lawn strategy exactly 0%. I have also lived in the midwest all of my almost 50 years on this planet and the winters seem just about the same on average. Some are warmer and some are colder and since my full time job for the last 20 years has forced me to work outside everyday of each and every winter I feel at least slightly qualified to make that observation.

I'm looking at the old map. Indiana is still in in zones 5-6 just like the last time. There has been no double jump in zones. Most of Indiana was zone 5 but now most of it is zone 6. So much of the state jumped 1 zone but the state is still a 5-6 zone state as before. I have verified this. I have difinately noticed that we never (or rarely) go below zero in Kentucky anymore. So I agree with the new map. We used to go below more often and now its rare and that's exactly what the new map shows. I doubt we will see much more Southern grass even though it is native to the area. They like to see the grass stay green all winter here so the Northern grasses will be the primary grasses for a long time to come. The Winters are definitely warmer in Kentucky but I don't keep up with the mid west. Cotton is making a comeback in western Kentucky so that says a lot. And I haven't seen a pond freeze over this year, not even a small one.

Richard Martin
12-30-2006, 02:01 PM
With all due respect, your thread is political at it's very core.

Each of your original paragraphs had something pertaining directly or indirectly to global warming and you suggested we think about it and then comment how we will be adjusting our lawn strategies without mentioning what you will be doing differently.

I responded to this at a later time because I needed to do a search for some posts I made last year that pertain to this....

Of course it's global warming. There is no denying that. I just don't want to get into the causes in this thread. Whether your own little spec of the world (not being demeaning, just accurate) is seeing it doesn't matter. Numbers are numbers.

Back in May I moved to coastal NC. To be specific, the coastal plain. Prior to May I lived in MD on the Chesapeake Bay. I cut grass there for 12 years commercially. I did see an increase in Burmuda grass and occasionally some other "Southern" grasses over the course of those 12 years. As proved by this thread from last year http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1132376&postcount=34 I was actively seeking advice on the care and management of those types of grasses when I lived in MD.

Here where I live now the area has moved from a southern zone 7 to a solid zone 8 but since the predominate grasses here were already "southern" grasses it really made no difference.

It has been a little bit of a learning curve for me since the main grass here is Centipede and it requires a completely different regiment from any other grass.

tacoma200
12-30-2006, 02:19 PM
Just on a funny note do you remember back in the 1970's when we had a few severe Winters. The scientist were sure and the news media agreed that we were heading into a new ice age. Of course that turned out to be wrong big time. I'm not making a political statement, I just thought it was funny how they can switch theory's in a few year span of time.

indy2tall
12-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Of course it's global warming. There is no denying that. I just don't want to get into the causes in this thread. Whether your own little spec of the world (not being demeaning, just accurate) is seeing it doesn't matter. Numbers are numbers.


Whether the recent warming trend is a result of global warming or not is the subject for another debate.


OK Richard, it has dawned on me that I may have misunderstood your entire original post causing me to get a little cantankerous and rude and into a position of owing an apology.

At first glance I thought you were using changes in the local grass types to beat us over the head with global warming and its illegitimate brother the liberal global warming theology (humans drive cars, cars cause global warming, therefore man is destroying the earth). After further and more reasoned thought it seems that may be exactly what you were trying to avoid doing. So I apologize for going ballistic on you.

I agree with you that the earth is in a warming trend. I just don't think it is caused by man. More importantly I agree with you that this warming trend is indeed cyclical. Many (read as 99%) people do not understand that warming and cooling is cyclical.

Now that I have tried to be a calmer, more humble Cueball I have a scientific question for you. How do we know that the warm season grass creeping north is not due to these grasses becoming more cold tolerant?

PS. Tacoma you were right about that dang map, Indiana has changed one zone. I just looked at it wrong!

Good grief, admitting I was wrong about several things in one thread, I need a drink! Bartender make it a double.

topsites
12-30-2006, 07:14 PM
Not to say the globe isn't warming and that we're not contributing (we are), but would the globe not be warming normally as of now?

Would this trend not be here, if there were only, say 100,000 people on the earth?
If hardly a 200,000th fraction of the current population were the only ones burning fossil fuels (or wood or what have you)...
Would the Tsunami not have struck?
Would Katrina not have blown?
Would this winter be COLD, and if so, how much colder? Because a degree or two don't cut it here, I'm talking 5-10 degrees colder at least.
And what would be growing right now in the USA, in terms of turf type plant life?

My opinion being, the earth is warming on a cycle that is a part of the natural process, the only question being how much could we prevent, if we could prevent it (which we CAN'T), the only questions that bother me is the apparently inevitable conclusions, but then that has been on the minds of humans for hundreds and thousands of years as well, so who really knows...

green horizons
12-30-2006, 11:39 PM
The local news had a weather report that displayed the ten warmest years on record. They all occured in the last 15 years. Kinda creepy. The reasons are a political debate, but the question is how will I adjust my business model. Well, I haven't noticed any warm season grasses in my cool season turf. Back to that record thing though; doesn't local weather data only date back about 100 years or so? The earth is older than records and me. I just hope the trees I have and will plant over my lifetime will help her.

Envy Lawn Service
12-31-2006, 12:23 AM
Well, I'm still working what's considered zone 6 and zone 7 from either map in my area.

The sad truth is that both zones have seen some mild winters in recent years, especially the last few. It's looking like another for this year too.

Zone 7 has been extremely mild.

Warm season grasses have been a major competitive problem for years in zone 7.
They are invading zone 6 now also.

I can remember when there was absolutely ZERO warm season grasses in the zone 6 portion of my service area (except golf greens). It wasn't all that long ago either.

The fact we are experiencing warmer temps and milder winters has $#!& to do with politics.
Take that over to the proper forum.

This thread should remain about 'real' trends because the are happening.

S man
12-31-2006, 12:27 AM
As you all know Global Warming has been in the news a lot lately. Whether the recent warming trend is a result of global warming or not is the subject for another debate.

If you have noticed in the last couple of years that Burmuda or other southern grasses seem to be invading your once pristine northern fescues and bluegrasses there is a very good reason for it. It's because things are warming up a bit.

The National Arbor Day foundation recently released their updated Plant Hardiness maps and there have been some major changes since 1990. You may want to take a look at it and perhaps adjust your lawn strategies accordingly.

http://www.arborday.org/media/zones.cfm

Comments anyone?

Global warming my a$$.
They said after katrina because of "global warming" we should have more disastrous storms the following year. Sorry, we haven't had ANY storms this year.

Envy Lawn Service
12-31-2006, 12:32 AM
Like I said... this is not the place for the political discussions.

Nor is it the place for the discussion of scientific meteorological speculation.

S man
12-31-2006, 12:52 AM
Like I said... this is not the place for the political discussions.

Nor is it the place for the discussion of scientific meteorological speculation.

Yes. I stuck my foot in my mouth. :nono:

Richard Martin
12-31-2006, 03:50 AM
So I apologize for going ballistic on you.

Now that I have tried to be a calmer, more humble Cueball I have a scientific question for you. How do we know that the warm season grass creeping north is not due to these grasses becoming more cold tolerant?

No problem.

This will not be a scientific answer. I, like you, am close to 50 years old. It was only in the last 5 to 7 years that I noticed a marked increase in southern grasses where they didn't used to be. Sure we always had some Burmuda but recently it's getting everywhere and filling in. I even had customers ask why "that grass" turns brown every winter and remark that it never did before. They wanted to know what I had done to their lawns to cause it. A quicky lesson in grass types was in order and the customers understood what was going on.

Since we now know that temps in the winter aren't getting as cold as they used to it is safe to assume that the increase in southern type grasses may be caused by the winter temps.

Are the southern grasses becoming more cold tolerant? I don't know. If southern grasses don't recede back south if and when the temps go back down then we'll all know.

tacoma200
12-31-2006, 04:21 AM
Well in here is a video showing the movement of the hardiness zones. you can hit play and reset over and over to see the gradual movement north. Kentucky and Tennessee are almost entirely in zone 7 now.
http://www.arborday.org/media/mapchanges.cfm

Team-Green L&L
12-31-2006, 11:02 AM
What is the deal with some of these people? Everyone is looking for a debate! I am so sick of it. Thank you for this information. Cincinnati has not experienced the changes yet. I am proned to believe that "el nino" is more of a culprit this year than Global Warming as a whole, although "el nino" is a by-product of Global Warming. I hope it will dissipate after the Pacific cools back down.

jeffex
12-31-2006, 11:19 AM
The one thing I believe is that modern science is a slave to the tv stations looking for someone to prove their political viewpoint. I can here some tv exec. say "take this money and find me a quack to back up this story" The same as has been posted about this years projected hurricane season. All the experts told us to look out this year. 2 years ago I told a friend of mine they would cancel school somewhere in our area because of RAIN. Well , it happened this year. They closed the schools early on a projected forecast for severe wind and rain. Bunch of candy a$$es. As far as Your observation of warm season grasses in our area RM I would agree with you. However, I have only been cutting for 13 yrs and that is only a moment when considering climate change. There are too many variables to declare global warming the reason for the survival of these grasses. It could just be that they are not as good at keeping rouge seeds out of the tall fescue seed we buy. I am VERY interested in the el nino- la nina effect we are experiencing here on the east coast this winter. Simply put the cold upwelling of the pacific water creates a climate change along the california coast . More low pressure fronts form that spin counterclockwise. They travel across the US and help block cold air high fronts that spin clockwise from diving down into the states. Along with a jet stream that doesn't have any big dips to help drive the cold air into the lower states. That is science you can see on maps on intellicast.com . NOw I truly believe that all the hot air comming out of my tv set and wash.dc is the TRUE cause of global warming