Buy a T190 or hold out

[Lawnworks]

What would you do? The bobcat is '03 T190, 2700 hours, new tracks, new sprockets, and new front and rear idlers. The machine has AC and heat. I have seen pics of the machine and it does not look beat up. The guy wants to buy a T300 for his pool business. He is the only owner/operater, and claims to have maintained it well. He says all the bushings are tight, b/c he has greased. He wants $18.5k for it. I am little leary of the hours, but it looks like a nice machine.

At the same time it looks like I could get a Cat 247b or 257b off iron planet for 20k w/ less than 1000 hours w/ pilot controls. One thing I did not realize from ironplanet is that I have to pay sales tax.

Does having an enclosed cab make it hard to communicate or slow efficiency or is something that I would not regret?

[Lawnworks]

...........................................................

[murray83]

As far as the cab aspect,I don't know what state your from but I'd think about weather in your area such as does it snow? lots of rain or dust? also the A/C and Heat is a nice bonus.Myself I would go with the cab but its up to you.

The Bobcat looks nice to me,but yeah I'd wait for something with less hours in the spring when the pre construction season deals come up.

[AintNoFun]

that seems like a lot of hours for the money.. who installed the tracks was it a dealer and if so do they have a warranty on them?

[Lawnworks]

What would you say it is worth? or would you just stay away? I will ask about the tracks.

[RockSet N' Grade]

I don't think I would ever buy a machine again without a full cab.....tractor, skid, or excavator. I can work longer, remain cleaner, I feel I am more efficient, and I have energy left at the end of the day........I just don't like freezing/shivering or sweating if I don't have to. For the extra $5k for a cab, to me it is well spent money.

[Lawnworks]

I don't think I would ever buy a machine again without a full cab.....tractor, skid, or excavator. I can work longer, remain cleaner, I feel I am more efficient, and I have energy left at the end of the day........I just don't like freezing/shivering or sweating if I don't have to. For the extra $5k for a cab, to me it is well spent money.

What is your feeling on this skid?

[Mjh Excavating]

I don't think I would ever buy a machine again without a full cab.....tractor, skid, or excavator. I can work longer, remain cleaner, I feel I am more efficient, and I have energy left at the end of the day........I just don't like freezing/shivering or sweating if I don't have to. For the extra $5k for a cab, to me it is well spent money.

I agree, as i get older it is nice to turn on the a/c or the heat and be clean at the end of the day. only one machine left with no cab and that will hopefully be gone this summer.

Lawnworks, IMO hours are a little high regardless of price. if you are going to turn this machine over in say three years or so it will probably have well over 4000 hrs on it and be worthless on trade or open market. Go for something with less hours.

[Mjh Excavating]

Also IMO having a cab increases productivity, comfort is key. as far as communication, blow the horn.

[dozerman21]

That's probably a descent price for the machine, but I would try to find something with less hours- even if it meant spending a little more. There seems to be a lot of machines (all brands of skids/CTL's) that are around 1000 hours and in good shape. I'd try to find something more like that.

On the cab, I'll always have one from here on out. Like the other guys said, there's no sense in freezing and sweating if you don't have to. It's well worth the extra money.

[Lawnworks]

Thanks for all of the opinions. I think I am going to wait. I really want a Cat 247/257 w/ AC.

[Mike33]

close cab all the way. Thats a lot of hours on a machine. I would go new if you can.
Mike

[RockSet N' Grade]

Lawnworks, I've thought about this quite a bit. IF (and that is a determination that you will have to make) IF this machine is owner/operator and this guy has maintained and done p.m. and greased it like it was his child, I am not convinced that the hours are too high. I like the fact that he has not dressed the machine up to sell with new paint. I would like to see his records (if he has these in order that would be a huge plus as to his attitude about his machine and an insight into how he operates). Are there new hoses? Are there nicks on the cylinder rods? Are there new cylinders, bushings, whats the interior look like? With that in mind, balance that with the idea that at 2700 hours you will have to spend some money in the coming hours to replace some worn out parts. I would budget (just off the top of my head) $4K for unknowns. If this machine fits for your purpose, forget resale value as a guiding factor. If all the above balances and you still feel good about it, remember he is "asking 18,5K" and we always ask for more than we are willing to settle for. Set a price in your mind that you are willing to pay that is less than $18.5K and do the negotiations in person. You may end up with a screamin' deal. That's how I think I would approach this.....And as for the CAT's you mentioned, buy one and regret it from the day you get it to the day you sell it.......their track system sucks.

[Scag48]

You will be disappointed with a 247/257, they are heavily underpowered. Buy a Case instead. Trust me dude, I'm a Cat fanatic, but Cat screwed up on those two. It's not the undercarriage system that is that bad, I think it's funny how guys say the Cat/ASV undercarriages are terrible. ASV has been building those undercarriages for years and look where they are now, oh yeah, still in business. Go out and run a Cat, they are the most comfortable CTL's you will run and in some situations (like ours when we had our 277B), we were more productive with the suspended undercarriage. However, the 247 and 257 are seriously underpowered. A 267 is the minimum I'd suggest, chances are it's out of your price range and it's a big machine. I really liked our 277B, just didn't quite work out for the operation exactly like we planned.

[Lawnworks]

Lawnworks, I've thought about this quite a bit. IF (and that is a determination that you will have to make) IF this machine is owner/operator and this guy has maintained and done p.m. and greased it like it was his child, I am not convinced that the hours are too high. I like the fact that he has not dressed the machine up to sell with new paint. I would like to see his records (if he has these in order that would be a huge plus as to his attitude about his machine and an insight into how he operates). Are there new hoses? Are there nicks on the cylinder rods? Are there new cylinders, bushings, whats the interior look like? With that in mind, balance that with the idea that at 2700 hours you will have to spend some money in the coming hours to replace some worn out parts. I would budget (just off the top of my head) $4K for unknowns. If this machine fits for your purpose, forget resale value as a guiding factor. If all the above balances and you still feel good about it, remember he is "asking 18,5K" and we always ask for more than we are willing to settle for. Set a price in your mind that you are willing to pay that is less than $18.5K and do the negotiations in person. You may end up with a screamin' deal. That's how I think I would approach this.....And as for the CAT's you mentioned, buy one and regret it from the day you get it to the day you sell it.......their track system sucks.

I offered him 15k before I posted this thread... and he told me he had to have 18.5k. I think 15k will be my final offer.

[Lawnworks]

You will be disappointed with a 247/257, they are heavily underpowered. Buy a Case instead. Trust me dude, I'm a Cat fanatic, but Cat screwed up on those two. It's not the undercarriage system that is that bad, I think it's funny how guys say the Cat/ASV undercarriages are terrible. ASV has been building those undercarriages for years and look where they are now, oh yeah, still in business. Go out and run a Cat, they are the most comfortable CTL's you will run and in some situations (like ours when we had our 277B), we were more productive with the suspended undercarriage. However, the 247 and 257 are seriously underpowered. A 267 is the minimum I'd suggest, chances are it's out of your price range and it's a big machine. I really liked our 277B, just didn't quite work out for the operation exactly like we planned.

You think the 247/257 would be underpowered for grading w/ a harley rake and picking up pallets and trees?

[cddva]

On the T190 deal, if he is looking at a T300 (new?) why would he not be trading in the T190...unless the dealer is not willing to give him much for it? I could understand if he was looking to move to another brand of machine a dealer may not want to give him much depending on their experience trying to sell used Bobcat equipment. But maybe the Bobcat dealer isn't too impressed with the T190 being offered? Just a thought to consider.

CAT247/257 - in my one year at this site I have seen lots of debates over the suspended vs. rigid under-carriage's. More than once I've heard people criticize the 257 for being underpowered. I believe the reason behind that (assuming it's true) is the under-carriage is the same as on the 247 and on the ASV RC50/60. I came across a website that showed a horse power limit with respect to the various ASV under-carriages and since the CAT machine is a skidsteer on tracks (heavier than the equivalent ASV machines) it may be underpowered for it's weight (by comparison to other CTL's) but the track HP limit prevents them from putting a bigger engine in it. Just my theory based on some info I've come across. (Disclaimer:I've never operated a 257 so I'm just going on some other posts about being underpowered - I don't know that to be true. I'm sure there are several satisfied owner's of the 257).

[Tigerotor77W]

Lawnworks, it depends on the size of the trees and whether you get a high-flow. I'd bet HF won't give you too many problems, but you may want to test it out first.

cddva -- what website was it?

[Lawnworks]

Well it is looking like a no go on the T190... I told him max I was willing to go was 16k. Haven't got a call back so far... I would imagine he would get more than that on ebay and he is listing it next week. I think he was going to buy a used T300.

I keep bouncing back and forth b/t wheeled units and tracked units. I have done some more research on tracked units... and I just don't know if I want to drop 5k on tracks and some undercarriage components when the need arises. I am leaning toward a Cat 262 now. I guess if I buy it right... maybe I can sell it if it isn't what I need. I wish I could find one pretty quick... going to be throwing money away on a rental Monday.

I have already bought a harley rake, forks, truck is wired and got electric brakes, and my 14k trailer is supposed to be ready Monday... all I need is a damn skid!

[ksss]

I would maybe look at it this way. The skid steer you chose will be one of your larger purchases for your business. I would put more consideration in to it. I would take the time to demo or rent if you have to different machines and see what really fits you and your line of work. If you were considering a tracked machine before you even know what your needs are you may have been making a mistake. I would demo a wheeled machine first and see if it works for you, if not then try a tracked machine. There are other decisions to make such as how much capacity and ROC you need, radial vs vertical lift and features of a machine that you may want or don't need (two speed, ride control, cab with heat and or AC). Maybe you have looked at all this, but buying a machine and hoping that it works for you can be an expensive learning experience.

[Dirty Water]

I think Kaiser said this in another thread, but it bears repeating.

"Tracks are sexier than wheels, but if you don't need them, your wasting thousands of dollars".

[Scag48]

I think Kaiser said this in another thread, but it bears repeating.

"Tracks are sexier than wheels, but if you don't need them, your wasting thousands of dollars".

That is 100% correct. I couldn't agree more. I tend to laugh at the guys jumping on the CTL/MTL bandwagon only to find out that their boat is sinking a couple months down the road. You really have to be in a specialized situation at least 80% of the time where the tracks offer more productivity and efficiency over a wheeled machine. Otherwise, the cost difference doesn't pencil out, you're just throwing money away.

[ksss]

That is 100% correct. I couldn't agree more. I tend to laugh at the guys jumping on the CTL/MTL bandwagon only to find out that their boat is sinking a couple months down the road. You really have to be in a specialized situation at least 80% of the time where the tracks offer more productivity and efficiency over a wheeled machine. Otherwise, the cost difference doesn't pencil out, you're just throwing money away.

I think the 80% rule is probably pretty accurate. IMHO you really need to be making more money with these machines (no matter what color it is). I have said this before but I'll say it again. The machines cost more upfront (new), they cost more to maintain (over tires) and the resale doesn't seem very strong (check Iron Planet and compare for yourself). If your running it because other guys are or they seem like the "in" thing to do, that may not the right thing for you to do. If you look at all the aspects of owning a track machine and you come to the conclusion that you NEED one , then at least you went into the deal with your "eyes open" and there shouldn't be any surprises. There was a guy named Uniscaper who used to post here. According to him he put a portion of his hourly rate toward maintaince. That made a lot of sense. Not only does it provide money for upkeep, but gives you another way to gauge how much money the tracked machine is making. If more tracked machine owners did the same it would be interesting to see how many would decide that they really didn't need tracks.

[bobbyg18]

guys, i've looked at a few jobs lately where I would need a tracked machine or over the wheel tracks...a few backyard jobs on loam filling in sloped backyards...i also recently got stuck on one job...anyways,

my question is how effective are over the wheel tracks versus a tracked machine (a CTL is not an option but over the wheel tracks may be an option)

how easy/hard are they to put on/off? how much time does it take?...and what brands and costs?

[Digdeep]

I think there are some good points that have been mentioned. It is very true that tracked machines cost more upfront than skids, cost more to maintain, and blow the doors off of skids when it comes to digging, finish grading, working on slopes, working on sensitive surfaces, working in soft ground conditions, etc. It really boils down to exactly what you want to do with the machine you purchase. You must take stock of all of the applications you plan on bidding.

As far as the comment that the CAT system sucks...I think that is entirely one person's opinion. I sold Bobcat's tracked machines, and I now teach school, but own an ASV RC50 (same system as the CAT 257) and a skid. I have had no issues with my machine, and based on my experience and opinion feel that the ASV system is superior to the rigid tracked machines out there..for many reasons that I've mentioned in prior posts. I agree with cddva that the weight of the CAT machines, i.e. 257 has a lot to do with the machine being underpowered. I also think that this is a big factor in the performance of the rigid tracked machines out there. The chassis, engines, and loader linkages are made for a wheeled machine that has been fitted to a generic undercarriage. The same engine that was made for wheels now has to lug around thousands more pounds, the ground clearance doesn't really change, the widths are wider due to having to fit the tracks to a chassis designed for wheels, etc.

Ultimately it comes down to individual needs and uses. I wish you the best of luck.

[cddva]

Here's the website that has info on ASV undercarriages: http://www.kencoonline.com/ .........click on ASV then Undercarriages.

[ksss]

I have a set of Loegren Trail Blazer steel tracks that I bought to run on my largest machine. They work really well. They will take you places that you can't go with wheels alone. I have done jobs that couldn't have been done without them. They don't take long to put on I would say about 20 min. a side. The Loegren tracks come with a handy come-along to help put the tracks on. The issue is you can't cross asphalt or concrete with them and you certainly don't want to take them off and on all day long. They are difficult to handle once off the machine. If you are working off road and don't plan on crossing improved surfaces they work well. I paid about $2,700.00 in 01 or 02.

As far as a 257 being underpowered, I have never run one, but enough guys have made the comment that there may be something to it. I have run a 277B and it certainly is no powerhouse when compared with other machines in its class. Everyone has different expectations of how powerful a machine could or should be. A machines power is relative to what your doing with it. If your excavating material it be underpowered. It your doing pallet fork type work it may have plenty of power. Thats why its important to demo a machine and work it like you would if you owned it. That will tell you if its powerful enough for your applicaton.

On the suspended vs nonsuspended. If the suspended machine will give you a competative edge go with it. If it wont then why spend the money on buying and maintaining it. We are all in this to make money and we do that by purchasing equipment that will provide the largest return on the investment made.

[Scag48]

I still claim you got a lemon 277B, Kaiser. Ours was balls to the wall, push anything, go anywhere, never got stuck in the sand we have out here while pushing uphill. The track maintenance, to me, is worth it, the suspension allowed for us to travel much faster across rough ground. When we had 95 acres of orchard ground to mop up with a grapple on the 277B, that was the perfect machine to do it. Sure the machine will buck back and forth if you go off a big enough bump, but it just sucked up the small stuff and you could float right over it. I couldn't imagine a better machine for the job, much faster than a dozer and I guarantee if you put the 277B head to head with a non-suspended carriage machine you would get at least 20% more productivity at the end of the day with the 277B in ground speed alone.

[RockSet N' Grade]

DigDeep, you caught me in a "blanket statement". I went through and reread this entire thread....and I was out of line. What I have been working on is backing out the numbers from initial purchase price to what the iron could be sold for after "X" amount of hours to get a handle on the ever changing "fair market value". I was emotionally hot after having a salesman try to slick talk me into buying a used TK with 1200 hours on it for almost 30K, when fair market value for that machine was/is just over 13K in its current condition. The bottom line to me has become the bottom line, no matter what machine you choose or the particular characteristics of that machine.....I got off topic and stand corrected......

[Construct'O]

My situration compared to others.Here where i live mud is a problem floatation is importiont i use track machine mostly to backfill trenchs.Several thousand feet a day.

Wheel skid would cut 90 percent of the time,because of the wet conditions i work in.The over the track is out because of the freezing conditions this time of the year.I would have to take machine back to the heat shop nearly ever night or take the chance of breaking something with the mud in track.

I will point out ctl on frozen ground with the rubber tracks is helpless mostly when ground is froze and trying to thaw out it is really muddy it is really slick.

Like eveyone else say it depends on what the dirt or rocky dirt ,what ever the situration is depends on more if the ctl or wheel machine is worth it.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

The ideal situation would to own a one of each, but realistically not always possible.

[AWJ Services]

I have 200 hours on my machine and at the current rate of wear they will need replacing somewhere around 1000 hours.I use them on pavement ,rocks,spreading gravel,breaking up concrete etc.
Anywhere you would go with a tired machine I take my CTL.
Most skid steer tires will need replacing before that if replaced at equivalent amount of wear.
Add the cost of 4 tires,labor too install them,and foam.
Subtract that from the cost of tracks and with my Takeuchi they can be changed with almost no tools.
So we end up around 2000 dollars difference.
That is 2 dollars per hour of use over a tired machine.
Couple that with the fact that you no longer have too sit at home when it is wet and the added income.For most guys that is only about 30 hours of work.
Granted they average about 10k more(initial cost) but take the cost of steel tracks off this and they are not that far apart.
I also have various time studies on when sprockets and rollers will need replacing as well.I really feel most people are just are listening too too many uninformed opinions.

But if the machine will be used for something other than Landscaping,excavating style business then things are different.
However most would be not considering a CTL if they were not in this type of business.




IMHO you really need to be making more money with these machines (no matter what color it is). I have said this before but I'll say it again. The machines cost more upfront (new), they cost more to maintain (over tires) and the resale doesn't seem very strong (check Iron Planet and compare for yourself).

I am in agreement.
They do cost more.

I think if you take Cat out of the picture the resale values do hold up well.

[AWJ Services]

I couldn't imagine a better machine for the job, much faster than a dozer and I guarantee if you put the 277B head to head with a non-suspended carriage machine you would get at least 20% more productivity at the end of the day with the 277B in ground speed alone.

So it would not be worth the added cost too increase production 20%?

If you work the machine 30 hours a week for 48 weeks a year.
Thats 1440 hours at 65 and hour which is 93600.00 dollars.
Increase that production by 20% and you end up with 112320.00 dollars for a net difference of 18720.00 dollars.
Thats 18720.00 dollars over a 4 year life which ends up being 74800.00 dollars additional income.
Thats alot of money for maint.:)

[Scag48]

Like I said, the suspended machine might only see those numbers in a certain situation. You certainly won't see a gain in productivity between a suspended carriage vs. unsuspended loading trucks, for example, it's such a miniscule task that even a wheeled machine could be just as productive. When buying a tracked machine, a lot of research must go into it's purchase. I think too many guys just buy these machines because it's the going trend and don't fully understand what they're getting themselves into.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Like I said, the suspended machine might only see those numbers in a certain situation. You certainly won't see a gain in productivity between a suspended carriage vs. unsuspended loading trucks, for example, it's such a miniscule task that even a wheeled machine could be just as productive. When buying a tracked machine, a lot of research must go into it's purchase. I think too many guys just buy these machines because it's the going trend and don't fully understand what they're getting themselves into.

I agree. You do not know how much time both I and the Cat guy here spend trying to talk people out of buying the track machines. I love the way they run, but definitely not for everyone. And if cannot afford to replace tracks later which most start up customers can not you do not need anyway.

[Construct'O]

JDSKIDSTEER What's this own one of each.Now thats a real saleman for you!!!!!!!! (SMILEY),but your right! That would be the idea situration ,but i'm still trying to pay for the first one.

SCAG I think your right to an extent about the track fade ,but if most everyone has to spent the extra 10K,i do think they consider the extra expense and what their going to be doing with it before jumping on the band wagon.I do agree that wheel and tracks both have there place. I can see that clearly.

I do admit when going to an auction or getting on Ebay you could get carried away on bidding in the heat of the moment.Then given time to think about it you say to yourself did i really need or afford that??????But if given time we normally analyze what we want and need.

[Scag48]

I think having both is the best way to go, but in stride. I think ideally guys should buy a wheeled machine first, figure out the business, then buy a tracked machine to compliment the wheeled machine. The new guys trying to jump into the business with a more expensive, tracked machine and limited knowledge about the field they're going into is a huge mistake. There's about 3 variables going against you with a tracked machine that simply aren't there with a wheeled machine. First, the added maintenance, whether the undercarriage is suspended or not, there is substantially more maintenance involved. The costs of replacing the tracks needs to be considered as well. Secondly, you have a much greater initial investment that could sink a new company real fast. And lastly, new guys in the business, for the most part, probably aren't going to use a tracked machine to the full potential, yet another downfall.

[Digdeep]

RockSet'N Grade...No harm no foul. There are some very good points being made here. It is true that tracked machines offer many benefits, it is true that skid steers will still hold their place in the industry, and it is very true that a potential machine owner needs to take a hard look at his/her needs before purchasing ANY MACHINE. It should always boil down to cost vs. benefit.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

JDSKIDSTEER What's this own one of each.Now thats a real saleman for you!!!!!!!! (SMILEY),but your right! That would be the idea situration ,but i'm still trying to pay for the first one.

SCAG I think your right to an extent about the track fade ,but if most everyone has to spent the extra 10K,i do think they consider the extra expense and what their going to be doing with it before jumping on the band wagon.I do agree that wheel and tracks both have there place. I can see that clearly.

I do admit when going to an auction or getting on Ebay you could get carried away on bidding in the heat of the moment.Then given time to think about it you say to yourself did i really need or afford that??????But if given time we normally analyze what we want and need.

Show me the money:hammerhead:

[ksss]

AWJ: I would agree that CAT's poor resale in tracked machines may not represent everyones machines. I think though you also have to give me that the 20% increase in productivity you use to get your numbers is very relative to a given application. Many would not see 20% depending on ground conditions and application it is used in. Your $2.00 an hour increase is not what the industry says. The information I have seen says 10-15 an hour depending on model. At 200 hours I don't know that you have all the numbers in yet. If you track your costs I would like to see what the tracks actually cost you at say 1500 hours. I think you probably have one of the top tracked machines made but it will still cost you more than $2.00 an hour to run them, especially factoring in purchase price vs resale which may be better than CAT but you will still take a hit unless you rebuilt it prior to sale. I am not knocking tracked machines nor the guys who buy them. I have given it some thought myself and if I am able to push forward with a precision grading idea I may buy one. I only say that a lot of thought needs to go into the decision. I don't think anyone here (that posts regularly) is uninformed about tracked machines. Everyone may have a different prospective, but not uninformed.

Skag: The 277B may have been weak. However the difference may be that your used to a smaller wheeled machine. I was comparing the 277 against other tracked machines in the same class. The leap between your machine and the 277 is large and may be it would not seem so great if you were running a machine more comparable to the 277. I would agree that there are times when a suspended machine may bite better than a nonsuspended machine due to its ability to contour itself to the ground. However I think the advantage is very small in most applications, especially when you add in all the moving parts in a suspended undercarriage.

Having a second machine that is tracked can be a good idea. You then would have the ability to pick and chose which machine goes to which job. I guess that is the idea behind the VTS track system. Although changing steel tracks is a pain, I can't see changing the VTS tracks on and off very often.

[AWJ Services]

I think though you also have to give me that the 20% increase in productivity you use to get your numbers is very relative to a given application.

the 20% was just an example based off of Scags post.


Your $2.00 an hour increase is not what the industry says. The information I have seen says 10-15 an hour depending on model.

Who actually knows the answer.We can all crunch numbers and come up with a guess but most units ,other the Takeuchi are so new too the market that it is hard too pin it down.There are 10 rollers on my machine and 2 sprockets.
Coming from a reputable source the rollers and sprockets will last through 3 and sometimes 4 sets of tracks.
I have a friend who has over 2000 hours on his tracks and 3000 on the machine.
Most will only get around 1000 to 1500 hours.
I will guess that around 4500 hours would be considered tops for most machines(lifespan on the Machine).
Take 3 sets of tracks 10k ,a complete set of rollers and sprockets 2000,and the labor too install them.
Just say 14k.
Now divide that by 4500 hours.

If it was 10 dollars an hour extra then that would mean it would cost 45 k more during it's life too maintain it.At 15 an hour that would mean 67500.00 dollars more too maintain it.
I just do not see it.
I had several people tell me the same thing and I asked them too show me on paper.Still waiting.
The tracks,rollers and sprockets are pretty much the only difference between my CTL and a wheeled machine.


If you track your costs I would like to see what the tracks actually cost you at say 1500 hours.

Maybe if I would park my Tractor and use the Skid more I could get there sooner.:)

I only say that a lot of thought needs to go into the decision.


I agree.But as in any Business decision base it on facts.
That is all I am saying.

KSSS I do very much respect your opinion as well as Scags and most of the other guys here.

I asked alot of these same questions when I was purchasing my machine and early on I got the same exact answers.
I stepped back,talk too several different operators(in my area) and realized that the Tracked machine best fit my scenario.
40 hours of my Machine time so far is work that I do not think I could have accomplished without a CTL.Thats 20% of my hours.

But I do have a Tractor too fill in for the rare times when I need tires and I have both machines too take too jobs.
If I had too do it with only a skid steer then maybe my opinion would be different.

[Construct'O]

KSSS (Quote)I guess that is the idea behind the VTS track system. Although changing steel tracks is a pain, I can't see changing the VTS tracks on and off very often.

Even if i had large skid the VTS wouldn't be a option because of the price.They are way over priced.If i need tracks i would wether take the cost of buying VTS put it in on trade for a factory track machine.The prices i have seen all 10k to 13k for the VTS setup.I'm sure the tracks aren't cheap to replace and the up keep any different then other track machine,probably more.

By one website i saw i thing Cat own VTS or a big part of it.

By the way i checked out the Case 450CTL and was impressed with the iron in them.There was a few things i could pick on ,but like all of us we could pick any of they over even mine(SMILEY).Over all would give it a 9.5 score.This one was new and priced down the line.Sure they had it priced to move to make room for the pilot control machines.With the pilots already out i wouldn't have built their machine.

The saleman didn't mention pilots until i asked.Would consider Case machine,altho this area dealers are far and in between,but at my age!!!!!!!! what i have will probably do.

[Canon Landscaping]

I have both a wheeled and tracked machine the wheeled machine never leaves our supply yard. I take my track machine anywhere I would take a wheeled one
I run over rocks gravel pavement brush broken concrete you name it and I would of probably ruined several tires and had countless flats on the wheeled machine with tires you are always worried about what you are running over and if you have a flat in mud on the rear of the machine you will understand.
You can foam fill them but that is expensive and adds weight and is not recommended if you run steel tracks. I would only buy a wheeled machine if it was going to be run on a hard surface all the time. The track machine does everything better IMO.

[Scag48]

If you're not getting any more work done per hour with a tracked machine vs. a wheeled machine and you're not charging any more hourly for a tracked machine, you're losing twice when compared to a wheeled machine. Just something to think about.

[Roadwarrior]

I have both a wheeled and tracked machine the wheeled machine never leaves our supply yard. I take my track machine anywhere I would take a wheeled one
I run over rocks gravel pavement brush broken concrete you name it and I would of probably ruined several tires and had countless flats on the wheeled machine with tires you are always worried about what you are running over and if you have a flat in mud on the rear of the machine you will understand.
You can foam fill them but that is expensive and adds weight and is not recommended if you run steel tracks. I would only buy a wheeled machine if it was going to be run on a hard surface all the time. The track machine does everything better IMO.

I have a 773 and a T-300 and the 773 almost never leaves the yard anymore.

I'm adding another tracked machine next week. Either a C175 or C185 New Holland. While they don't have the creature comforts of the Bobcat they seem to be able to out puch the Bobcat quiet easily.

[Fieldman12]

That's allot of money 10-13 thousand for the VTS setup. I thought there was tracks out there for way less than that.

[neversatisfiedj]

Thanks for all of the opinions. I think I am going to wait. I really want a Cat 247/257 w/ AC.


Here's one for ya !

http://cgi.ebay.com/2003-CAT-277-SKIDSTEER-SKID-STEER-LOADER-CATERPILLAR_W0QQitemZ130109188039QQihZ003QQcategoryZ95494QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Lawnworks]

I have pretty much decided to just rent now. I have a dingo 425 w/ harley, trencher, auger, etc that I use just about everyday... so I really only need the skid for heavy lifting and grading large areas. I have pretty much decided what I want though. After renting a bobcat and a cat... I am going cat when the time comes. I can spend hours w/ no fatigue. And I will probably get a wheeled skid... just can't justify the cost/maintenance of tracks especially when I have a tracked mini-skid.

[Lawnworks]

I have an update. Just bought a Cat 248b off of the used equip marketplace. $4500 delivered

[t190]

can u say steal?

[tallrick]

Nice machine, nice price. If someone tried to sell me one for that it would be here already! Good for you!

[t190]

anymore deals like that you saw?

[Lawnworks]

anymore deals like that you saw?

Man I will probably not run across another deal like this for a couple of years. I have been looking for a skid for almost a year, so I was prepared when I saw this one... not to mention after renting skids I knew this one would fit my needs perfectly and compliment my Toro Dingo 425 nicely.

[OntarioExcavators]

" I would agree that CAT's poor resale in tracked machines may not represent everyones machines. Your $2.00 an hour increase is not what the industry says. The information I have seen says 10-15 an hour depending on model. At 200 hours I don't know that you have all the numbers in yet. If you track your costs I would like to see what the tracks actually cost you at say 1500 hours."

Real world costs: 257B with 2000 hrs $13.50/hr including all repairs. :dizzy: Remember this started as a new machine. I would expect those costs to rise the older the machine is.
Keep in mind this a Cat with the ASV u/c, which is a very problematic setup. There is a very good reason the Cats have poor resale value.
I have since replaced it with a different brand, which hopefully is much less expensive to operate.

[Digdeep]

Ontario,
I'm sorry to hear about your high operating costs. I hope that your new machine proves to be less costly to operate. I run an RC50 and I'm pretty sure that I'll reach 1900-2000 hours on my original tracks (just over 1500 right now) and I know I'll be far lower in operating costs, probably around $4-5 an hour on the undercarriage.
I always sold against the CAt 257 as being too heavy for that undercarriage when I sold Bobcats and time and time again I see the same undercarriage on the ASV machines see much longer life and lower operating costs. I firmly think it is because they designed their machine for that undercarriage. I would say that your operating cost of $13.50 an hour is real close to what I see the Bobcat machines costing their owners in my area as well.

[OntarioExcavators]

I have also heard that the 257B machine is too heavy for the u/c. It seems like another machine quickly pushed into production without proper R&D done first.
U/C cost per hour is a bit hard to determine, to be accurate you have to do a complete rebuild to your U/C to be able to do proper calculations.
After the fact a Cat rep told me that $10-15/hr is what they expected the cost to be.
Another thing that is hard to put a number on is downtime cost. When a machine is down for a period of time there is lost income, time going to and from the dealer etc. These costs can add up real fast. A problematic machine has the actual out of pocket repair cost which could be only a fraction of the real cost/loss if everthing is taken into accout.

[ksss]

It will be interesting to see if the C series addresses any of these issues. Especially with the 257 which seems to be a very problematic machine, not only undercarriage issues but power issues as well. I am curious as to what the depreciation costs are of these CAT machines on average. If you average $13.50 an hour for to maintain them, what is the depreciation costs of that machine. The only way I can tell is off of Iron Planet, I have not done the math but I guess one could average 10 or so machines that had good undercarriages (try to minimize track wear as a detractor from value) and see what they are selling for compared to new. I am would guess you would have combined cost of about $25.00 an hour for depreciation and upkeep. Both could go up substantially if the machine is used in an abusive environment or by an unskilled operator. If your charging $100.00 an hour that is still 25% gone before you see any of it on the bottom line (I doubt many guys are turning that kind of money on an hourly baisis). That machine would have to do something pretty darn special to justify those kinds of costs for me to purchase one.