Some pics of our work

[McKeeLand]

Hey guys! I've been on lawn site off and on for awhile and have seen a lot of nice paver jobs posted on here, as well as some terrible ones. Just thought i would put a few of our recent jobs on here to see what you think.

[McKeeLand]

Here are some more pics

[hoskm01]

Holy Moses, thats some nice work. What does it take to do those tall columns in block like you did with the wall with the vinyl inserts? Do you build around rebar or glue it up?

Very impressive work in my opinion.

[mrusk]

I think your damn good. I may have some projects coming up in South Jersey that i may be interested in subbing to you.

Matt

[yardmanlee]

very nice !!!

[YardPro]

very nice work..

[stumpslawncare]

Excellent Job

[cgland]

Nice work! Shows alot of creativity!

Chris

[zedosix]

Nice work. On your last picture, what did you put between the blocks and the existing concrete steps.

[Duekster]

That first pic the fense looked better than the house!

[McKeeLand]

Thanks guys for all of the praise! You always think you do nice work, but its nice to hear it from a unbiased opinion.

Nice work. On your last picture, what did you put between the blocks and the existing concrete steps.

We jack hammered the steps out except the porch and built the walls and steps right up to the existing porch. Then we just laid the pavers on the concrete porch over some fabric and about an 1" of concrete sand. We did that a lot but i no longer do it because that particular job had a lot of problems with water getting into the basement, i now will insist that they remove the porch completely and start over.

Holy Moses, thats some nice work. What does it take to do those tall columns in block like you did with the wall with the vinyl inserts? Do you build around rebar or glue it up?

That was a very interesting job. We had called in a rep from EP Henry's contractor services to give his advice on those column. what we came up with is that the lower retaining wall has geo grid in it tying it back. Also we keyed in the wall and the column together making it one for the first 33". Then the rest of the column is free standing i think about 4' with the hollow center filled with stone. I thought about filling it with concrete but that would take away from the flexibility of the wall. I will try and dig up some construction pics of those two jobs.

Thanks again guys.

[zedosix]

Yes I figured you took out the lower steps, but between the blocks on the top section what did you do there. Are your blocks glued to the sides or are they just resting on a granular base? The reason I am asking is we used to use that method 20 years ago or so and the outer walls sink lower than the brick on the porch. Just a pita to try and fix after. Now we bolt 3" angle iron on the concrete and build up from there. Again, keep up the good work.

zed

[neversatisfiedj]

I really like your designs and work. on your pedistal steps they should be constructed where the fron of the next step overhags the back step by 3/4 inch though for structual reasons.

[McKeeLand]

On that job we built a wall in front of the porch with a crushed stone base and glued the back of the block to the concrete wall. Other times we have cut 2" veneers off the faces of double sided block and glued it right to the wall like cultured stone. Its not a bad idea to bolt the angle iron to the wall kinda like a brick shelf. That job is about 3 years old and had not settled. I see it every season because we come back to that development several times a year. The part that sucks is the guy sold the house the next year after dumping $11000 into his front porch. Go figure.

[McKeeLand]

on your pedistal steps they should be constructed where the fron of the next step overhags the back step by 3/4 inch though for structual reasons.

How do you mean? We always set the back step back 3/4" from the front step so that the back edge of the cap or bull nose rests on it. And the cap always overhangs at least 3/4" on the front of the step.

[McKeeLand]

Here are some more pic of the construction phase and one of another patio we did this year. I don't like symmetry pavers but the customer insisted on using them. it cameo out nice though. Also thats not concrete behind the wall its flow-able fill.

[John Zaprala]

Superb Job! I was wondering about the vinyl fence as well... do you use mason screws in the block? How did you attach it to the block? Great idea on that. Our block supplier now offers a cheap block to fill for steps. We've done it in the past with our left over block from other jobs, but definately shows your level of quality. Great job.

[John Zaprala]

I agree with McKee on the steps. We also use EP Henry and overhang our caps and bullnose. I warranty my work for 5 years, make my steps the same way, and have never had any structural problems with our steps. If you have a properly compacted base (98% or more) your steps aren't going to settle.

[Eakern & Dog]

Very nice work ! I wish you were down here .

[GreenMonster]

excellent work. unique and creative.

nice, nice, nice.

I'm interested in knowing more about flowable fill too. What is it comprised of, how is it to work with, etc.

[neversatisfiedj]

Look at pedistal method. Good work ! I agree very creative.

http://www.countymaterials.com/f_downloads/TechSheet1A.qxd.pdf

[LB1234]

Curious about the raised patio that shown in the rear of the house. Was that done with perimits? Just wondering b/c usually towns have height restrictions before you need some type of railing, kneewall, and/or bannister.

Not trying to be a jackass I'm just curious.

[Lazer_Z]

McKee,What part of SJ are you from? Excellent work BTW.

Rob

[John Zaprala]

In most area in PA, any wall 48" or higher needs to be reviewed by an engineer and have a permit. It typically goes by township to township whether you need to have permits or railings. We usually make double-sided walls instead of railings, but of course depending on the heights you may still need a railing.

I'm interested in the flowable fill as well any info?

[McKeeLand]

Superb Job! I was wondering about the vinyl fence as well... do you use mason screws in the block? How did you attach it to the block? Great idea on that. Our block supplier now offers a cheap block to fill for steps. We've done it in the past with our left over block from other jobs, but definately shows your level of quality. Great job.

The fence is actually a railing system and it come with brackets that we screwed to the column with masonry screws after grinding the rock face flat for the bracket.

I have seen the new step fill block form EP Henry. I asked them two years ago at a step building seminar at MAHTS why they don't make them. I guess they finally got around to making them. We usually use terrace wall for the fill in steps.

[John Zaprala]

Are you taking any classes at MAHTS this year? I was wondering what suppliers make flowable fill?
I'm going to Baltimore tomorrow for MANTS. Should be maheim.

[McKeeLand]

excellent work. unique and creative.

nice, nice, nice.

I'm interested in knowing more about flowable fill too. What is it comprised of, how is it to work with, etc.

Flow fill is just sand, portland and water mixed to a soupy consistency, self leveling too. We have used it on all of our raised patios since first using it on the job in the picture. It comes in a regular concrete truck priced by the yard, about $65-70 per yard, its not cheap. However the labor is a fraction of using crushed stone and compacting in lifts. You can pour it as deep as you want, minding you don't blow out your walls, and it sets up to the compaction of virgin soil in 24hrs. You still have to put 6" of crushed stone on top of it but that's it. You can still cut and scape it when it dries, kinda like hard clay. The best part is you get full compaction in the corners and all of the areas that you would not get your tamper in all of the way, under bay windows, over drain pipes, ect. The best part is you pour it, rake it level and walk away. Start laying pavers the next day. Geo grids can be used in it also. Just be careful of any pipes with air trapped in them, they will float, best to anchor them down with re bar.

I love it, its the only way i will do a raised patio anymore, no call backs.

[McKeeLand]

Look at pedistal method. Good work ! I agree very creative.

http://www.countymaterials.com/f_downloads/TechSheet1A.qxd.pdf

I looked at that website, i never saw that method of building step before. I'm not sure if it would work for the usual steps that we build. We try and build at least a 12" step when possible. Our block is only 8" and 10" so if i over lap a 10" block like they show than i will only have a 10" step unless i have a 2" overhang which you can't do. I definitely see that as a stronger system. i will have to try and see if there is any way i can do it on my next set of steps. The way we do it know is the method that EP Henry specifies.

[McKeeLand]

Atlantic county, Mays Landing

[John Zaprala]

Do you use surface drains then for drainage? I think that's a great idea. I've never even heard of it.

[McKeeLand]

Are you taking any classes at MAHTS this year? I was wondering what suppliers make flowable fill?
I'm going to Baltimore tomorrow for MANTS. Should be maheim.

I am going to MAHTS this year. I have to get my NCMA cert for segmental retaining wall to stay eligible as a EP Henry contractor.

We get our flow fill from Action sup. and Kennedy sup. Most ready mix concrete plants should produce it. A lot of high way construction uses it for back filling utilities now.

[McKeeLand]

They say you can put a drain column in if you want behind the wall. I don't see the need for it with flow fill. What little moisture gets trapped behind the wall will weep through the gaps in the block.

In are area you need a 4' railing after 2'. So we try and stay below 2' when possible.

[John Zaprala]

I took the NCMA in Essington a few months ago so I could take some other courses like lighting courses and sales. NCMA was much easier than ICPI. I guess that's b/c I already had taken the ICPI and it made it that much easier, but they showed a lot of pics of wall failures and common mistakes. I always learn more from the other contractors than the actual instructor. People bringing up unique applications or solutions to common problems. Just like the flowable fill. Compaction in corners is always a problem. Great idea!

[McKeeLand]

I have signed up for a lot of free classed as well. If you register early they are free, they charge if you wait until you go.
Last year i heard they used pictures of our flow fill job in a raised patio seminar. I didn't go last year because of family prob. That's the great thing about EP Henry is that they will come out for no charge and help you with just about anything relating to there products.

[Promow Professional]

You have more patience than I do. Awesome work!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[neversatisfiedj]

Ok Mc. I just thought I would ask. Hanover chapel stone also specifies the overlap but I have yet to work with EP products yet. Maybe this year. Great work again BTW. Look forward to seeing some new projects this spring.

Josh

[cgland]

Question for you........On the column job w/ the flowable fill, why did you feel it was necessary to use double sided wall block below grade? Couldn't you have used single sided and switched to double when you got to grade? Just an observation...work looks awesome!
We looked at flowable fill on several jobs and actually found it way more expensive than using mod. stone and compacting in lifts. I do agree on the compaction in corners though.

Chris

[Grn Mtn]

its late so I may not be thinking correctly, but what keeps the flowable fill from seeping out through the joints? Do you need to put Rebar in it if your filling 2'?

Nice Work, Thanks for posting, and the construction phase photo's are always great to see.


on a side note (related to what is being discussed so I am not trying to hijack) a customer of mine currently has a raised flagstone patio. It is about a foot off the ground, and I can't remember if the flagstone was mortar or set on compacted earth, anyway its attached to a 3 season room off the house so one side of it stops 2' short of the house (creating that ugly weed infested trench.) They want to put a hot tub out there and asked about a new floor and some shallow walls. My thoughts were to reuse the existing patios foundation, scrape off the old flagstone and if there is an aggregate base just put bedding sand down and pavers. then (before actually) build a wall around the outside of it and run it to within an inch or two of the house so no more "garbage trench". What are your thoughts? Would you just demo everything build the wall and fill in with the flowable fill?

[McKeeLand]

Question for you........On the column job w/ the flowable fill, why did you feel it was necessary to use double sided wall block below grade? Couldn't you have used single sided and switched to double when you got to grade? Just an observation...work looks awesome!
We looked at flowable fill on several jobs and actually found it way more expensive than using mod. stone and compacting in lifts. I do agree on the compaction in corners though.

Chris

Ep Henry technically no longer recommends using single sided for reinforced walls only on garden walls. I dont 100% agree, but in this application stability was an issue with the large columns so we wanted the stability of the 10" DBL instead of the 8" SNG.

Your right that flow fill does come out to be more sometimes. But when the site is to tight for a lot of equipment you can bring in a pump truck for $500 and pump all that material rather than wheel borrows or destroying the existing landscape. I know the most damage to our jobs is from running the skid steer back and forth a hundred times to move the crushed stone. Not to mention it is the big picture it saves, your done and on to your next job sooner, stops settlement call backs which are a lot on raised patio, and if you explain this to the customer usually they are glad to spend the extra $1500 or so on their $25000 patio to use flow fill.

Grn Mtn its late so I may not be thinking correctly, but what keeps the flowable fill from seeping out through the joints? Do you need to put Rebar in it if your filling 2'?

Nice Work, Thanks for posting, and the construction phase photo's are always great to see.


on a side note (related to what is being discussed so I am not trying to hijack) a customer of mine currently has a raised flagstone patio. It is about a foot off the ground, and I can't remember if the flagstone was mortar or set on compacted earth, anyway its attached to a 3 season room off the house so one side of it stops 2' short of the house (creating that ugly weed infested trench.) They want to put a hot tub out there and asked about a new floor and some shallow walls. My thoughts were to reuse the existing patios foundation, scrape off the old flagstone and if there is an aggregate base just put bedding sand down and pavers. then (before actually) build a wall around the outside of it and run it to within an inch or two of the house so no more "garbage trench". What are your thoughts? Would you just demo everything build the wall and fill in with the flowable fill?
.

Its amazing but it hardly bleeds through any of the cracks in the walls and if it does it was off with water. You don't need any re bar for 2' or better. It is the same as if you compacted good soil every 4 inches

As for your project, with out seeing it all i can say it that it depends on the structure underneath. What ever you do on top is only as good as whats underneath. Also the hot tub is a concern too, they can weigh a lot when filled and can compromise the patio if not properly reinforced. Show us some pic so we can see.

[cgland]

We recently did an estimate for a raised application which was 4.5' off existing grade. The patio was approx. 1200 ft2 the difference in cost from aggregate to flowable fill was 10K! for 10K I can have a few guys move and compact the stone in lifts. Although I would love to try it on a job or two this year. My only concern is that it is a relatively new technology and some of the concrete co. in my area have not perfected the tensile strength requirements yet....plus when I talked to my conserv rep they were kind of clueless as to the ins and outs of flowable fill and that didn't quite give me the warm and fuzzies!

chris

[Henry]

Strange that the conserv rep was clueless. Wasn't EP Henry pushing this idea 2 years ago at mahts? I wanted to try on a raised patio we built at my house but suppliers in my area weren't familiar with it.

[cgland]

Yeah! I was a little awe struck when he had to refer me to their engineering dept. The companies around here range from 150 to 3000 psi on the strength of the fill. 150 being too little and 3000 being too much!:dizzy:

Chris

[hollywood]

Great looking work. These are the only pics I have seen of flowable fill in action other than at MAHTS last year. Thanks for sharing.

[mrusk]

Speaking of filling in for raised patio. I was at a cambridge round table dinner weeks ago. The owner of pavetech happened to be in town and came to the dinner with the owner of cambridge pavers. We asked him what he recommended for raised patio fill.

He said use concrete sand or clear 3/4 stone. He said they both compact faster than road base and you are able to do larger lifts with those materials.

Matt

[McKeeLand]

It was the Conserv rep that sugested using flow fill the first time for me.

[neversatisfiedj]

So if you have a 4.5 ft raised patio . Use concrete sand as fill !! I don't buy that . I agree with 16 lifts of cr6, which would be a major PITA. I didn't realize floable fill was that expensive. I saw it demonstarcted at MAHTS last year.

[McKeeLand]

Here is what i come up with for the flow fill.

- 1200sf @ 4.5' -9"(2"paver,1"sand, 6"stone) = 166yds

- 166yds flow fill @ $65/yd = $10790

- 166yds stone = 216tons + 33% compaction = 288tons

- 288tons stone @ $18/ton = $5184

- Difference $10790 - $5184 = $5606

- Now plug in your man hours to do 8 lifts @ 6", or 12 lifts @ 4" if you don't have a reversible plate, multiplied by 1200sf each lift. then the moving of 166 tons of stone from where ever they dropped it, usually the street, with a skid steer at best with a 3/4yard per bucket = 221 trips.

WE try and get $1200/day for me and 3 guys. So that's $1200 for every day it saves me. Lets say it saves 2 days for $2400 - $5606= $3200 difference now.
On a patio that big we would try and get at least $25/sf = $30,000 min. The $3200 difference doesn't sound so bad now. Especially if you sell it to the customer as an upgrade. Explain how much better it is for the life of the patio. If they're spending $30000+ most will spend the extra $3200 on piece of mind. I would never use it on a job that i didn't bid it into the price.

Anyway, no one ever said it was cheaper, just that in the end it has a lot of benefits and on smaller jobs it is almost nominal difference. That's what i come up with from my experience. it may be different for you guys.

[mrusk]

You pay 18 a ton for road base? I pay 9.50 a ton i belive plus 70 bucks delivery for a tri axle load.

However, on a 30k+ project i think you could easily upsell it to the customer. People are always worried about there pavers sinking! Imaging making 300+trips with the skid steer moving 288 tons of road base from the drive way to the back yard? If you fill the bucket up all the way and the ground isn't level, after 300 trip you proably drop 5-6 yards that will have to be cleaned up. Never mind that the yard will most likely be distroyed!


How would you work the delivery of the fill? Would you have the trucks coming no stop and hope you can keep up with the wall construction? Would you use a concrete pump?

Matt

[McKeeLand]

It depend on the size of the job. On a 4.5' patio i would probably build it half way up, pour half and then while that was setting up work on building the remaining height. Especially with 4.5 feet your going to have at least 2 layers of geo and that could be a pain if you did it all at once.

[GreenMonster]

Speaking of filling in for raised patio. I was at a cambridge round table dinner weeks ago. The owner of pavetech happened to be in town and came to the dinner with the owner of cambridge pavers. We asked him what he recommended for raised patio fill.

He said use concrete sand or clear 3/4 stone. He said they both compact faster than road base and you are able to do larger lifts with those materials.

Matt

If it's gonna be more than 3-4 lifts, we use 3/4 clear stone as well. We haven't had any issues in the past. Matter of fact, we did a wall that was about 8' tall, with a patio on top, the entire wall was backfilled with stone.

This wasn't officially engineered, but I did talk to the guy that engineers our walls for us and he said this was the way to go as well.

This would have been a great oppurtunity for flowable fill. 2 tri-axles of stone behind here, and it was a major pita getting it there.

[mrusk]

It depend on the size of the job. On a 4.5' patio i would probably build it half way up, pour half and then while that was setting up work on building the remaining height. Especially with 4.5 feet your going to have at least 2 layers of geo and that could be a pain if you did it all at once.



That makes sense. Do you still put the 3/4 stone behind the wall on the raise patio? Or is it flowable fill right accross?

[neversatisfiedj]

I pay 22.00 a yd for road base and thats with me picking it up !!

[cgland]

The prices I got for the flowable fill were between $75 and $92/yard! Plus it's 4.5' exposed...add another 12" to your calcs. plus the additional cost of the fill plus I pay $12/ ton on the stone = a huge difference. Plus on the Coventry line you will get seepage through the cracks, which will account for some additional cleanup time.


Chris

[neversatisfiedj]

Why can't you put a vapor barrier behind the block for seepage ?

[cgland]

Why can't you put a vapor barrier behind the block for seepage ?


Just like modified stone, with flowable fill you will still have a tiny bit of water soaking into your base so a vapor barrier would not let the water seep through the front of the wall.

chris

[McKeeLand]

Not that i want to keep beating flow fill to death here:hammerhead: , but it doesn't seep through the wall. I thought it would the first time and i was shocked that how big of a gap it will not go through. The most you get is the water weeping through.

Anyway it isn't for everyone and every job. But some how i think 5- 10 years ago people would have argued that stone dust is better than quarry blends, heck people will still argue that point. I find its best to embrace new technologies, but at the same time be cautious of them too. I thought i would never switch from recycled concrete to quarry blends stone, now i would never go back despite the increased cost for me.

As for the drain column behind the wall its best to talk to your rep to see if they think it should be put in. I don't think you need it on smaller patios with flow fill, but that is just my opinion.

[project_x]

Here are some more pics

Jason,
In the semi-circular steps in this thread, what is the brand and prduct of wall (step block)? It is similar to the Unilock Roman Rias product, but it looks to come in a variety of widths.

Thanks,
Rob

[Mike33]

If it's gonna be more than 3-4 lifts, we use 3/4 clear stone as well. We haven't had any issues in the past. Matter of fact, we did a wall that was about 8' tall, with a patio on top, the entire wall was backfilled with stone.

This wasn't officially engineered, but I did talk to the guy that engineers our walls for us and he said this was the way to go as well.

This would have been a great oppurtunity for flowable fill. 2 tri-axles of stone behind here, and it was a major pita getting it there.
Is that j-91's?
Mike

[GreenMonster]

Is that j-91's?
Mike

lol, what the hell is a j-91?

[zedosix]

lol, what the hell is a j-91?

Its the same as a j-90 but one better.:laugh:

[John Gamba]

Here are some more pics


Sweet stuff:cool2: Ive always been amazed at what you Block heads can do. You all make homes look good:waving:

[McKeeLand]

Jason,
In the semi-circular steps in this thread, what is the brand and prduct of wall (step block)? It is similar to the Unilock Roman Rias product, but it looks to come in a variety of widths.

Thanks,
Rob

it is techo creta or creta plus.

[ChampionLS]

Speaking of filling in for raised patio. I was at a cambridge round table dinner weeks ago. The owner of pavetech happened to be in town and came to the dinner with the owner of cambridge pavers. We asked him what he recommended for raised patio fill.

He said use concrete sand or clear 3/4 stone. He said they both compact faster than road base and you are able to do larger lifts with those materials.

Matt

You know... stuff like this really Annoys me. Personally, I think you'd be better off filling in the patio with fill dirt, geotextile and then finishing off with 6" of 2a and 1" of bedding sand, than to hear the supposed "big shots" give their poor advice on construction techniques.

IF you were to use 2b (clean stone), Yes, it will almost self-level and require minimum effort to compact. The problem lies with the un-foreseen troubles, such as now that you just built a huge french drain next to a residence. Where to you think all the rain water will go? It will fill in between all that stone and work it's way down to grade. Other problems will include bees, ants and insects that find nooks and cratties to build nests. If you use clean stone, you'll need an extra layer of geotextile on the stone before you put your bedding sand down. If not, the bedding sand will slowly either wash down during heavy rain, or dry out and migrate into the stone like an hour glass.

I've NEVER heard to use straight sand, and I would never even attempt it. Using sand is like trying to contain water. It WILL turn to liquid upon heavy rain and wash out in a hole as small as a pencil. Sand will hold water for years upon years. Do yourself a favor, and stick with the 2a, roadstone or solid fill.

:nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:
Champ

[Mike33]

lol, what the hell is a j-91?

Come on Mark, Ab limestone blend block ( j-91 )
Mike

[lawnkid]

Don't beat me up over this but can someone explain how a drain column works? :confused: I am assuming that when you fill a raised patio with flowable fill, you can't install a typical 4" perf pipe with weep holes. What are the drainage options?

[YardPro]

Sand will hold water for years upon years.

:nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:
Champ

sand, hold water????

that is exactly the opposite of what sand does...

sand is nothing more than very small rocks. it does not hold water at all.

I live on a sand pile ( outer banks of NC). and trust me.... sand does NOT hold water...

one of the reasons for using sand as a bedding material is that it will allow water to drain out from under the pavers.

also sand does not liquefy like clay particles..... so washouts with sand are far less likely than with clay soils.

they pump sand onto our beaches every few years. they do this by using a dredge to suck up sand and water from offshore and pump it onto the beach. the sand falls out of the water and is left on the beach. The last time they pumped, they hit a clay pocket and the clay remained suspended in the water and did not fall out of the water, so we did not get the amount of material on the beach that we were supposed to have.

I do not advocate the use of sand for base, but the properties you have listed above are not associated with sand.

[ChampionLS]

Sand at grade level will not hold water, and yes, it will drain very easily. Everything you mention above is true. BUT - build a raised patio, using retaining wall blocks and fill it in with sand, and when your done, put your pavers on top. Now take a garden hose and flood the pavers with water. See what happens. The water will find the smallest crevice and start draining. All that sand will soak up the water like a huge sponge and stay saturated. When enough water soaks into it, all your sand will turn to a liquefied mess and pour out like oatmeal. How do you think beaches erode? Sand flows very easily when it's saturated, because of it's small particle size. Unless you live on a tropical island, where common aggregate isn't available, why not just use the right material.

Heres some photos showing what happens when you build on sand.