spider splice or not

[Mike M]

Okay, I'm wondering which is the best way to go... Just starting out.

I like the spider splice for even voltage distribution, and, mainly because I can put my splices in a protective, easy to find place.

However; if I save cable runs by using the "T" pattern instead of spider splice, will silicone connectors be enough to protect my connections from direct placement in the ground?

Another problem I realized is that many fixtures don't come with 25 feet, so I guess I would have to make splices in the ground anyways.

What is the best way to go?

Mike

[steveparrott]

The Spider Splice is the way to go. Here are the advantages:

-Equal voltage distribution to all fixtures on a single wire run

-Provides an easily accessable, above-ground, voltage testing point

-Reduces the number of splices in the field (this assumes that you use fixtures with 25' leads)

-This reduction of splices is a huge advantage in that it reduces the number of possible failure points, reduces labor and makes for a faster, easier installation.

-Finally, the Spider Splice cap also provides a place where you can stamp the wire run number in a visible place and attach Fixture Record Tags for off-grade fixtures such as tree lights or lights mounted on a structure.

[Mike M]

Steve,

What other fixtures come with 25' leads, in addition to Cast?

Can they be ordered like that, for example, by Kichler or Vista?

Mike

[NiteTymeIlluminations]

Kichler just introduced their new junction system. Fixtures like the 310, 384, 309, 488, and 361 are all available with 25 leads and a connection for their new LV junction, which is incredible...if I can attatch an image I will...

[Mike M]

That's awesome.

I just got off the phone with Dennis at Florida Outdoor Lighting, they have them in stock.

Thanks for the info on the fixtures with the 25 foot leads.

I was also getting info on making my own leads if I need too. I guess I can crimp the leads at the fixture and use heat shrink tubing.

Mike

[NightScenes]

One thing that must be considered when using the hub or spider splice is the resistance from the 16 guage wire. I noticed it the first time that I used this method of wiring. When you have 5 fixtures connected to a home run and each of those fixtures has 25' of 16 guage wire, not only do you have a .5 volt of drop but, you have 125' of wire to account for. This adds up quickly when you put the whole system together. That being said, I use this method as well as all of the others.

[Pro-Scapes]

i preffer the hub for the advatages listed above. I do use a T and a loop when the situation dictates.

Many fixtures from many manufactures are avalible with 25 ft leads. Kudos to cast for making thier socket to lead connection very solid. We recently used a bunch of focus bullets on a job and they had plain old blue butt crimps with no sealant or anything... highly unacceptable and had to be redone.

The only issue I have with the cast spider splice is its just not big enough... I would like to see them avalible in a larger diameter. On many jobs we use a small round irrigation valve box to hide our hubs.

The Kichler brass bullets with leads are about 35% more expensive than the cast bullets so make sure you price jobs accordingly if you use them.

Dollar for dollar the cast is hard to beat. The hub method is probably the way to go if you dont understand voltage drop alot (you should if you plan to do lighting). Paul is right tho there is alot more wire involved and alot more resistance which equals lost wattage

[Mike M]

All very helpful info, thanks.

When using the T method, should I put the splices into a junction device (irrigation box, etc.) or can I trust to burry the silicone-filled connectors in the ground (like they're rated)? The Vista rep said it was okay to just use the silicone twist-on connectors for direct burry.

Thanks again,

Mike

[NightScenes]

Mike, I would always use a valve box or something of that nature. Not only does help protect your junctions, but it makes it easier to find when you want to add a fixture to a run.

[seolatlanta]

Well, I am going to beg to differ on having valve boxes for every connection. I only use valve boxes (irrigation with the round top) for my hubs. If you have a job with a lot of fixtures there will be boxes all over the yard.

What you can do is get a few bags of the small orange grease tube with the crimps .Crimp the connection together and place the grease tube over it and bury that. You can get the tubes at Florida Outdoor Lighting Distributors website. Be sure to factor them into your bid as they can add up on larger jobs. Thats just my .02.

Dave

[NightScenes]

When using a T method, I still like to use a valve box at the t junction, not at every connection.

[seolatlanta]

Yeah , I am not sure if I misread his post-I was saying definitely put the T in a box but I thought he was talking about the connections at the fixture if it didnt have a lead.

Dave

[Mike M]

Yes to both; at main junctions and for splicing each fixture. Thanks!

I definately like the idea of crimping, instead of just using a silcone screw-on for direct burry.

I bought a set of fixtures and a transformer from FOLD for a mock set-up, all I have to do now is submit my plans and fixture specs to the development. My area is all HOA's, it makes it hard because I have to predict everything: which fixtures to use, how many, wattage, etc., plus a list of plants and sizes. I guess this will get easier after I do a few installs and I have a better idea of what typically works well.

Janet Moyer's book has been really good, especially for design info, but I need something with more specific techniques and best practices for the installer. For example, is it okay to mount a transformer directly on a house with vinyl siding? Etc.

Thanks again,

Mike

[NiteTymeIlluminations]

I can agree with that comment for sure...great conversation!!! Does anyone use the Ace Connectors with heat shrink tube? What a connection!!! Pricey as well but you'll never have to go back for a faulty connection thats for sure, but completely un-re-usable. Email me if you'd like to see a sample.

check out this link...

http://www.nightscaping.com/pdfs/ace_connector_info.pdf

[NightScenes]

Mike, when mounting to vinyl siding, I use a piece treated plywood between the transformer and house. If you need an instruction book (so to speak) I would suggest Nate Mullen's book. Read it with the understanding that he also uses it to sell his product (Unique Lighting). It has some very good design and installation tips.

[NiteTymeIlluminations]

nightscapes paul you are an early riser...lets have coffee in panama in the mornings!!! well unless Sandy from Canada keeps me at the bars all night!

[NightScenes]

You know that Sandy doesn't sleep. I look forward to the coffee though.

[NiteTymeIlluminations]

Sandy and I and a few nameless others never did get in before sunrise in Cancun back in 2001. We've all grown a little since then....but I do stress a "little".

Say hi to rich swor for me if you talk to him before the trip.

[Dreams To Designs]

If you want to try a really tight splice, look into using a solder pot. After all the wires are soldered, twisting on a silicon filled wire nut makes the splice just about indestructible. http://www.watsonirrigationsupply.com/AMAZING/customkititems.asp?CartId={7E75B56D-C6CC-47AF-8C1EVEREST2-503BD08535D8}&kc=CSOLDERKIT%2DG%2DL&eq=

Even using the best wire nuts on bare wire will cut off some strands and as Paul has said many times, increases resistance. Just the simple operation of removing the insulation can damage strands in a wire bundle and increase resistance. Soldering is just such a clean and tight joint.

Your always best to keep a transformer off of any structure, especially vinyl siding. A simple 4'x4' post or a more elaborate stand can eliminate any problems that may occur from transformer mounting. Transformers can create serious electrical noise and humming, and if isolated from a structure do not create a problem, but if hung on a wall can transmit that hum and other noise directly into a home. Using a mount also allows you to run a conduit for all the wires leading into a transformer and if you really want to get fancy, a large valve box at the base of the conduit can hold any extra wire so the transformer can be unmounted and placed in a more suitable position for installation or service. It just adds to a cleaner more professional looking installation for that top end client.

Kirk

[Pro-Scapes]

I really agree with Kirk on this. While the crimps that come with the grease tubes are better than just twisting the wires up and stuffing them in the tubes the soldered joint is near indestructible. 4 of us played tug o war with a 12ga soldered piece and it wouldnt budge.

Yes the solder kit is a small investment but to thoes who claim they dont do it because it takes to long probably aint doing it right. If you go around to all your hubs and strip them all and twist em up while your solder pot is heating you can run back around and solder about 7 hubs or so before you gotta reheat if not more. takes me about 10 seconds to actually dunk em in flux then solder then water. Dryconns if we are using a spider splice and grease tubes if we got the room.

When we installed our home i did use crimps and grease tubes direct buried just as a c ompletly experimental scenario. I do mount my transformers directly to brick homes with zero problems so far.I probably wouldnt mount to siding and would opt for the post method.

[NiteTymeIlluminations]

If you all aren't too busy I'd still check the ace connectors...while the solder is nearly indestructible there is equiptment to carry around that you won't have with the ace connectors...they are not twist on dry conns, which I do carry as well, but they are actually solid brass connectors, very similar to the transformer terminal block connectors...then a heat shrink tube to seal the connection...there are plus and minus to every system...with the ace connector good luck in high winds...I posted a link to the pdf cut sheet on them earlier in this thread

[Pro-Scapes]

but you still need to heat up the shrink wrap in the field ? to me that would take longer than soldering. I dont carry my solder tray around all the time only when soldering. It does provide a nice place to keep tools not in use as well. I took a look at the ace connectors and i really dont think it would save me time vs soldering. Besides how does it work when you hav a 10ga and 5 or 6 wires that are 16ga ?

looks pretty slick for adding leads but I like the crimp tubes or a soldering gun and shrink wrap filled with the 3m sealant for that

[niteliters]

bigger ace connector

[NiteTymeIlluminations]

there are 3 sizes

[jbailey52]

Where on the net can I get more info on the Kichler junction.. cant seem to find it anywhere.. the Kichler Webpage is terrible

[NiteTymeIlluminations]

good luck...nobody has it even though a few distributors are claiming to have it in stock. I have my reps but the stock is due to Kichler on Feb 17th. Kichler has made a commitment to not distribute literature until the product is in stock for once.

I have a power point presentation on the junction so i should be able to answer any questions on it. I will also be holding a mini seminar on the junction at the CENTS show in Columbus next M-W.

Doug Ludmann

[Mike M]

fyi, response I just got from Kichler:

We will have a New Landscape Catalog
available early February with this
and other New Landscape items.
We Will be Setting up a Site
www.landscapelighting.com
for this in March 07.
we Currently Don't have
Landscape Lighting on
The Kichler Site.

[klkanders]

I got to see and play with the Kichler LV Junction at the TerraDek booth during the Minnesota Green Expo. It has a flip up cover on top to check
voltage. The blue plugs push in and then twist to stay put. Nice!

[Lightscapes]

Like most things in life, different approaches have pros and cons in different applications. Both soldered connections and Ace connections are stronger than the wires themselves. Watson Irrigation (sells the solder kits) had a length of 12/2 wire about 9 inches long soldered at both ends on their parts counter for two years. You can imagine how many contractors were yanking on that wire in that much time, and the soldered connection wouldn't budge. Only downside is that when a silicone filled wire nut is twisted over so many wires, who knows if the silicone is filling the gaps between all those wires?

The Ace connector is also an excellent connection, both mechanically and electrically. The inline configuration has been a big advantage when putting moonlights in trees, downlights in arbors, and bullets lights on porch roofs, all applications where wires are potentially visible. The heat shrink tubing is an excellent waterproofing tool.

Silicone filled wire nuts (alone) get the job done to get the lights lit, but give a tug on one of the wires, and don't be surprised when one or more of them comes out. Probably the least desirable option, but definitely the fastest, if speed is your objective.

Wait, wasn't this thread about spider splices??? Sorry 'bout that!

[jbailey52]

That seems like a very good product if you ask me... The spider splice to me seems like a better "method" of hooking up a system, rather then the spider splice itself being a great piece of equipment, I mean it is nothing more then a $1 piece of PVC and a cap.... I am eager to check this thing out!

[bumper]

I tried getting a hub from my usual supplier but he actually had no idea what I was talking about. Here, instead of the spider we call it the spoke. Even distribution of voltage to all the fixtures, easy to calc out the specs. Since I needed the hub asap, I made my own with 4" black pipe cut out equally on either side with a cap, fed the wire in from both sides and hammered it down to 2" above grade. Camoflauged well. Home was near the beach, sure is nice working in sandy soil:hammerhead:

[NightScenes]

I use irrigation valve boxes for my connection points. Their cheap and work very well.

[Pro-Scapes]

ditto that. The valve boxes are just so much easier to work with too. I used to use all spiders and I still do use a spider splice if the hub is going to be seen in a bed area.

Regular 6 inch round valve boxes from dallas specialties. Would be kinda cool if cast made a lide to fit these or a larger splice ( HINT steve!)