Topdressing Bermuda turf...

[ericlemson]

I have about 5500 Sqf of Bermuda Turf. Can anyone tell me what it would cost to topdress that? Other questions would be, does it take a series of topdressings to actually smooth out a lawn? What time of year is recoomended? Who would do topdressings in the Upstate of SC? Any other tips are helpful.

Pics would be great.

Thanks everyone.

Eric

[mojob]

When a golf course top dresses their greens, they usually put down about a 1/4" to 1/2" of top dressing mix. They will do this throughout the year to keep the greens healthy and smooth. Convert sqft to sqyds and multiply by .007 (that's 1/4" in yards) and that will give you a starting point as to how much mix you'll need in yards. A golf course will also drag the mix into the greens to smooth it out. They sell drag mats for this, but I suppose you could use some chain-link fence and do the same job.

[dennys-lawn]

Eric: I just bought a Turfco Meter Matic F-15. My rate is going to be around .19 cents sq/ft. Includes Aerate, top dress, drag and material. I'm not going to advertise it this year. I got a few to do by word of mouth to study my sq/ft and material price. Plan to send soil samples to local extension service from yard to be top dressed. They can generally tell you what the soil needs and how much to apply. I'm still learning in thew area of top dressing. Maybe this will help.

[Az Gardener]

Just a word of caution, you probably don't have a golf course soil structure. So you don't need to use sand unless you want a new hobby of topdressing. In fact it is better to use a similar soil to the one you have below and also sand dulls reel blades very quickly.

You would be better off using a good screened topsoil blend with a small (30%) portion of compost mixed in. We topdress two times a year until we get the desired results. That being we can mow at 1/2"-5/8" with a reel mower and have it look great. This is hybrid Bermuda varieties could not cut this low with common.

We do it in the fall when we do our scalp for the winter overseed and we also do it in the spring when we scalp to kill off our winter rye. We toss it about then use the drag mat. Seems they are about 130-150 to buy and you can also rent them, at least here locally. I don't care so much how deep I go Bermuda will come up through almost anything. I am after filling the low spots as quickly as possible. I am not worried about my lawns being ready for a round of golf tomorrow but it has to look good fairly soon. The lawn usually looks good within a couple of weeks and is filled in completely within a month.

[ericlemson]

Any chance you have a before and after photo handy?

[ericlemson]

Denny- Wouldnt aereating before the top dressing application just make for more work and more material needed (top dressing filling up all the holes)?

[dennys-lawn]

Eric: Try these links:
http://www.sandmantopdressing.com/TopdressingServices.htm
http://www.levellawns.com/

They have some useful info.

[dennys-lawn]

I'm still learning. :confused:

[txgrassguy]

Denny- Wouldnt aereating before the top dressing application just make for more work and more material needed (top dressing filling up all the holes)?

That is the whole idea with topdressing - amend the soil profile by filling in the holes.

[dennys-lawn]

Thanks Tex. You do any top dressing?

[ericlemson]

OK, well then I was confussed. What I was looking to do was smooth out my lawn. For that should I just grab some bags of play sand and a large rake and have a go at it?

[Southern Sky]

I have been in the topdressing business for 3 years now and can take a stab at your questions. First of all, to topdress 5,500 sq. ft. in my area would be right around $1,000, maybe slightly less. That would include the price of material and: (1) reel mower cut to about 1/2 inch, (2) core aerating at least 12 holes per sq. ft. with a cam driven aerator, (3) core harvesting, (4) metered machine application of the topdressing material, (5) brushing/dragging the material to ensure smooth surface, (6) application of quick release nitrogen to help the turf recover quickly and (7) clean-up of excess materials on driveway/walkways.

I echo some of the sentiments that have been posted already. Topdressing is a valid and important cultivation practice. I tell my customers that leveling the lawn is a by-product of topdressing, the real benefits are in changing the soil profile. Once you begin changing the soil profile, you can really make the Bermuda start to pop. It makes a huge difference.

As far as the number of applications to really level your surface...it really depends on how bad your surface is currently. Most of my customers that are interested in leveling are wanting to start cutting with a reel mower. For those folks, I tell them that the first application will make a huge difference but to get the lawn really level would need at least 3 applications.

I have posted one before photo (up close right after we had finished the topdressing and were having the homeowner water in) and one photo about 2 or 3 weeks later (taken further away). The quality of the photos are not great, but may give you some idea of what it looks like. The second photo does not really do it justice...it looks a lot better in person.

[Az Gardener]

Once you begin changing the soil profile, you can really make the Bermuda start to pop. It makes a huge difference.

Please elaborate how changing the soil profile makes the Bermuda pop?

[Southern Sky]

Not trying to start the great debate here, but how about improved water infiltration and percolation? How about better aeration and less compaction? It is virtually impossible to grow a high quality stand of turf in straight clay around here, especially given how much grading and earth movement goes into the newer developments. Often the sod is laid directly on the subsoil.

[Az Gardener]

Why not start the great debate it beats the hell out most of whats discussed here?

Everything you described comes from aeration not topdressing. All of those things you described do not change the soil profile. They change exactly what you described water penetration, relieving compaction Etc. Adding sand to a clay base changes the soil profile but not for the better.

Sand is for sand greens, you want to keep the same or at least similar soil profiles so they hold a similar amount of water and nutrients. Clay holds a lot of water sand does not. Clay holds nutrients sand does not.

You fill a tire rut with sand and the grass that does fill in that area is always going to be water stressed or you will over water the rest of the yard to keep the sand filled ruts green.

We have similar conditions you and I. Here we have more heat, you have more humidity. We have high salt levels PH of 8 + and I think you have a low PH soil but we both have compacted clay.

People use sand for two reasons:

It is what the golf courses do.

It is easy.

If they educate themselves enough to realize that its wrong they still have a hard time changing because sand is easy. It levels nicely, no clumps wet or dry, no small pebbles to rake out, its easy. The problem is its not about making it easy it should be about doing what is right for the turf.

All of this says nothing of what sand will do to a reel mowers blades, but if you are aerating and topdressing and not doing the monthly maintenance then it is not much concern to you I guess.

[Southern Sky]

AZ, I probably did not articulate my last post as well as I should have. I recognize that the benefits mentioned above are caused by the aeration, but those benefits are prolonged by filling the core holes with a more coarse material. Filling the core holes with a more coarse material is what changes the profile. Just for clarification purposes, I can tell you that the topdressing blend I use is not 100% sand (approx. 70% sand/ 30% humus), which does not change the argument, only clarifies.

The question at hand is whether this is a positive or negative influence on the soil profile. I understand that the issue we are trying to combat is the layering of soils. The significant compaction of clay soils really exists in the top 2.5" or so. Beyond that level the pore space opens slightly which allows for better water percolation and aeration. At the end of the day, pulling 3" soil cores with the aerator and filling with sand is what combats the layering issue. Topdressing with sand without aeration would likely create some layering issues.

I recognize that you think this is a flawed technique, but this is a very common practice in Georgia and has yielded extremely good results. My company is not the only one doing it this way. I have pulled the soil samples after a few rounds of topdressing and the results are great. When it's all said and done, the turf sure does seem to like what we do and I guess that is what I'll hang my hat on.

[Az Gardener]

The benefit you are seeing is not from topdressing it is from aeration and to some degree from the scalping. Which is initiating some tillering of the Bermuda as well as removing all the thatch and dead grass. The fertilizing too is a big help. All these are great practices but it is not topdressing. I will concede that core holes filled with a sand/humus blend is not going to cause any problems.

The thread is about topdressing and topdressing with sand is not the best way for a homeowners lawn to be topdressed even if that is how everyone else is and has done it.

Bloodletting used to be a common practice and it seemed to help, but we know now and I am sure some recognized it was a bad practice even in its heyday. Because it is common practice is never a good reason to do something.

I just want to be sure the uninformed who read the thread are not confused between the cosmetic benefits that topdressing provides -vs-the agronomic benefits of aeration.

See good debate, someone somewhere learned something and we were mildly entertained for a bit. Hope we can do it again sometime. It's late I'm out..

[Southern Sky]

I concur; good debate. Maybe our paths on this site will cross again somewhere down the line...

[ericlemson]

Yes that was a lot of good information. So for the homeowner that wants to smooth out his lawn and doesnt want to spend thousands of dollars on reel mowers and topdressing applications nor does he want to create problems that come with sand applications, it sounds like i should just rent an aereator once a year untill it naturally begins to smooth out. Does that sound like the best thing to do.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

do u have any lawns that in the past few years after treatment have declined? is there follow up fertilization?
i only ask as i have done some topdressing up here in the north and it seems i get better results with just lots of aeration and adding organic matter and no sand

[Southern Sky]

Eric, your lawn will likely not level itself naturally; it will require some type of intervention on your part. Don't get scared off from topdressing your lawn, I think that AZ would agree that topdressing has many cultural benefits. His objection is using a sand-based topdressing mix on a clay soil; many have used sand and had excellent results, but on the flip side many believe that sand does not work well when mixed with clay soil. You will just have to do further research on your own to determine what type of topdressing blend is right for you.

And yes, you should have your turf aerated once per year; no debate to be had there.

[teamoneoutdoors]

Check this out!

http://www.ces.clemson.edu/arts/turfgrass_topdressing.pdf

Hope this helps.

[teamoneoutdoors]

Just realized I sent you info on using tires.:dizzy:

Go to the following site:

http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/turfornamental/

They can help you and will be familar with your soil. I am from Spartanburg so I know what you are seeing.

[hmartin]

Why not start the great debate it beats the hell out most of whats discussed here?

Everything you described comes from aeration not topdressing. All of those things you described do not change the soil profile. They change exactly what you described water penetration, relieving compaction Etc. Adding sand to a clay base changes the soil profile but not for the better.

Sand is for sand greens, you want to keep the same or at least similar soil profiles so they hold a similar amount of water and nutrients. Clay holds a lot of water sand does not. Clay holds nutrients sand does not.

You fill a tire rut with sand and the grass that does fill in that area is always going to be water stressed or you will over water the rest of the yard to keep the sand filled ruts green.

We have similar conditions you and I. Here we have more heat, you have more humidity. We have high salt levels PH of 8 + and I think you have a low PH soil but we both have compacted clay.

People use sand for two reasons:

It is what the golf courses do.

It is easy.

If they educate themselves enough to realize that its wrong they still have a hard time changing because sand is easy. It levels nicely, no clumps wet or dry, no small pebbles to rake out, its easy. The problem is its not about making it easy it should be about doing what is right for the turf.

All of this says nothing of what sand will do to a reel mowers blades, but if you are aerating and topdressing and not doing the monthly maintenance then it is not much concern to you I guess.

OK, I agree with what you are saying, but I think a few of your points were stretched.

There isn't any comparison in filling a 10 wide by 3 inch deep tire rut with sand and filling a 1/2" x 3" hole with sand. That tiny area isn't going to drought stress you lawn. You will never see a color change.

You noted that the benefits seen in the previous post were from aeration and not topdressing. Doesn't topdressing with a more course material greatly prolong the benefits of areation? I think that is why people have been happy with a mostly sand product.
Also, in no time, the sand is completely taken with grass and isn't dulling blades as badly as described.

This practice may not be book perfect and definitely isn't as bad as bloodletting. For most people it gives the best bang for their buck.

[dennys-lawn]

Hmartin: You around the Tupelo area?

[hmartin]

Close to Batesville.

I found another point the probably backs up AZ

From Clemson.

How can CEC be modified?
In coarse native sands of the Sandhills, Coastal Plain, and Coastal regions, as well as sandbased
golf greens and sports fields the CEC arises almost entirely from organic matter. To provide
more nutrient holding capacity it is desirable to preserve and increase CEC when possible.
Reducing organic matter by core aerification and replacement with topdressing sand will
obviously decrease CEC. Generally aerification decisions are based on reducing compaction and
increasing water and air movement through the rootzone. Be aware that reducing organic matter
in this way greatly decreases CEC, therefore, perform these operations only when needed.
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/turfornamental/tmi/fertlime/SF%20for%20Turf%20Managers.pdf
Lots of good info on the previously mentioned Clemson site. Thanks.

[Eakern & Dog]

I learned a lot from the debate :-)

Southern Sky..........why is core harvesting necessary, will the plugs not smooth out during the rest of the process or do they get in the way of filling the holes while you are doing this ? Also, what type of machine are you using to meter out the top dress material ?

Thanks

[Southern Sky]

Clay soils typically do not have CEC issues. Amending with a sand based product will not drastically impact the CEC one way or another in this case. Adding a little organic matter to the topdressing blend would offset any negative CEC impacts from the sand.

[Southern Sky]

I learned a lot from the debate :-)

Southern Sky..........why is core harvesting necessary, will the plugs not smooth out during the rest of the process or do they get in the way of filling the holes while you are doing this ? Also, what type of machine are you using to meter out the top dress material ?

Thanks

It is mostly just an aesthetic issue...homeowners want to see the surface as level possible when we leave. So harvesting the cores just allows us to drag the area without imperfections. Plus, it makes filling the core holes a bit easier.

[Eakern & Dog]

It is mostly just an aesthetic issue...homeowners want to see the surface as level possible when we leave. So harvesting the cores just allows us to drag the area without imperfections. Plus, it makes filling the core holes a bit easier.


I see. I was thinking of trying this on my own backyard. Along with the bad soil,I have divots and some holes from my dogs.Now, if could only teach them to fetch the cores :-)

[hmartin]

Clay soils typically do not have CEC issues. Amending with a sand based product will not drastically impact the CEC one way or another in this case. Adding a little organic matter to the topdressing blend would offset any negative CEC impacts from the sand.

Everyone says that Clay = high CEC, but it is not true.
The predominant clay in the Carolinas is kaolinite and it has a CEC of 5.

My soil is hard as a rock in the Summer when it is dry and has a CEC of 8.7, and everyone would say that I have sand, but I don't.

[hmartin]

I think this may be the first 4 page thread in the homeowner section that didn't involve bickering over which brand mower to buy:) :)

[dennys-lawn]

Very true!!

[dennys-lawn]

Martin: do you top dress around Batesville? I just purchased a Turfco Meter Matic machine, F-15.

[hmartin]

Not for hire. There just isn't a market within the towns I work.
Homeowners complain about their newly sodded lawn being rough, then someone introduces them to the idea of wheelbarrowing sand over from the house being built next door.
People aren't putting the dollars in their lawn here compared to other areas. No topdressing, no aerating, no reel mowers.

[Az Gardener]

OK, I agree with what you are saying, but I think a few of your points were stretched.

There isn't any comparison in filling a 10 wide by 3 inch deep tire rut with sand and filling a 1/2" x 3" hole with sand. That tiny area isn't going to drought stress you lawn. You will never see a color change.

You noted that the benefits seen in the previous post were from aeration and not topdressing. Doesn't topdressing with a more course material greatly prolong the benefits of areation? I think that is why people have been happy with a mostly sand product.
Also, in no time, the sand is completely taken with grass and isn't dulling blades as badly as described.

This practice may not be book perfect and definitely isn't as bad as bloodletting. For most people it gives the best bang for their buck.


Your right a core plug filled with sand will not change anything, but I said that. The thread started out as a topdressing thread to smooth out the lawn. On new lawns you typically have ruts from wheelbarrows, maybe mowers sometimes footprints from the initial install, sunken irrigation,utility or light trenches. Just holes from poor grading. All these need to be filled I have seen sand topdressing still be visible after a year in even medium sized ruts.

Yes filling core holes with a coarse material will prolong the benefits of aeration but sand is not the only or even the best material for this. "Turface" is a great product for this.

Finally sharpening a reel mower at 75.00 a shot will kill any patience for waiting on the sand to work its way into the clay. If you have any depression of any size it won't be "done in no time" maybe done in no amount of time.

[dennys-lawn]

Great post everyone! I am getting a lot of good information from you all. thanks and keep it up.

[hmartin]

http://www.profileproducts.com/sports_fields/index.cfm?lp=gb&bhcp=1

I checked this stuff out for a few minutes. Is this a granular Clay? Will this relieve compaction long term? How much does it cost and how much do you use on average per 1000?

[MTAYLORFFP]

Im having about the same problem and after consulting with my lawn spray guy, he suggest just a "pro mix" type of topsoil for the filling in sunken spots... also the people that installed by lawn did not roll the sod so now i have to roll it also... PITA!! A question I have is... I have clay soil, and this one area of my lot holds water due to this, is there any way to stop this holding of water?

[txgrassguy]

Thanks Tex. You do any top dressing?

Me, No Way!
My crews - Yes:drinkup:
The soil structure in my area of operations is uniformly poor. I encountered a bit of resistance when initially offering this service to my existing high end residential customers but the results sold 'em.
2X a year minimum - cost for aerification is a flat rate of $200 to as high as $450 on some properties - topdressing is $30/cubic yard spread + cost of material.
I have access to a walk in front Turfco with the chevron belt and brush - it takes about 20 minutes to drop one yard. Less when we apply heavy.
For one twenty yard truck dropped at a curb, I can load with my compact tractor the turfco and the pile is gone in about three hours.
Two guys can easily do two houses in one day.
My minimum for the machine itself for smaller jobs is $200 for the first three hours plus material - if the tractor is there tack on an additional $65/hr.

[ericlemson]

Follow-up question for filling car tire/wheelbarrow (sp) ruts...If I use sand/or other material to fill in these ruts, should I wait till growing season or can I start filling now. I am in SC so its all Bermuda turf and dormant.

[Az Gardener]

I would wait until it is actively growing and use a soil mixture that is the same or similar to what is already there. Using a drag mat is a good way to get it level.

[New2TheGreenIndustry]

So when is the best time to do this in the south?

[dave k]

I would say in May or June, the hotter the better, it will recover probably in one week, also I put down a high N fertilizer to get it going, I would put it down a week before you scalp and dress it.

[ussoldierforhire]

Why not start the great debate it beats the hell out most of whats discussed here?

Everything you described comes from aeration not topdressing. All of those things you described do not change the soil profile. They change exactly what you described water penetration, relieving compaction Etc. Adding sand to a clay base changes the soil profile but not for the better.

Sand is for sand greens, you want to keep the same or at least similar soil profiles so they hold a similar amount of water and nutrients. Clay holds a lot of water sand does not. Clay holds nutrients sand does not.

You fill a tire rut with sand and the grass that does fill in that area is always going to be water stressed or you will over water the rest of the yard to keep the sand filled ruts green.

We have similar conditions you and I. Here we have more heat, you have more humidity. We have high salt levels PH of 8 + and I think you have a low PH soil but we both have compacted clay.

People use sand for two reasons:

It is what the golf courses do.

It is easy.

If they educate themselves enough to realize that its wrong they still have a hard time changing because sand is easy. It levels nicely, no clumps wet or dry, no small pebbles to rake out, its easy. The problem is its not about making it easy it should be about doing what is right for the turf.

All of this says nothing of what sand will do to a reel mowers blades, but if you are aerating and topdressing and not doing the monthly maintenance then it is not much concern to you I guess.

I am about to topdress my lawn with a 75% sand 25% fine topsoil mixture. What's your take on that? I also, have heavy clay soil.

Is there anyway to introduce earthworms to clay soil to help with a natural aeration?

[ussoldierforhire]

bumpitty bump bump

[greendoctor]

I maintain lawns on heavy clay soils. Some acidic, some sodic and alkaline. I topdress with finely screened compost and no more than 25% silica sand . This introduces organic matter and non compactable particles into the soil, which often modifies the structure of the soil. However, this is done only for the purpose of soil modification and not as a replacement for an adequate fertilizer program. A show quality lawn needs BOTH good soil and adequate fertilizer. I had a neighbor across the street from me. He never spread or sprayed fertilizer on his lawn. He dumped an inch of "topsoil"(red volcanic clay) on his lawn every couple of years. Not only did his lawn look like shat once the nutrients contained in the soil ran out, but he raised his lawn over six inches above grade. Unless I need to change the grade, I will not put anything on the soil that does not decompose. Then, if I am changing the grade, it is done with something similar to a USGA greens media.

[ussoldierforhire]

thanks for the info. i need to look around for prices on buying bulk compost. does it matter what kind? manure compost ok?

[avs]

I topdress with finely screened compost and no more than 25% silica sand . This introduces organic matter and non compactable particles into the soil, which often modifies the structure of the soil.

Then, if I am changing the grade, it is done with something similar to a USGA greens media.

i have found sources for fine screened compost and silica, but the silica is graded. should i select a grade similiar to my natural soil. (socal beach lot) or is there a preferred grit size?

is the usga greens media a preferred grit for a residential lot?

thanks in advance for you advice!

[greendoctor]

Try to match what you have and it will be good. In my area, the general idea is to completely replace the existing clay soil with sand and organic matter. Lawns growing on the existing soil or more clay brought in by "landscapers" often become problem children. The dumbest thing I have seen done is to topdress a lawn with a mix of clay and compost. Can't level it and if you do manage to rake it level, it sure does not stay level.

[avs]

Try to match what you have and it will be good. In my area, the general idea is to completely replace the existing clay soil with sand and organic matter. Lawns growing on the existing soil or more clay brought in by "landscapers" often become problem children. The dumbest thing I have seen done is to topdress a lawn with a mix of clay and compost. Can't level it and if you do manage to rake it level, it sure does not stay level.

Thanks for the info. i think sand makes the most sense for my situation.