Design Charges?

[TurfdudeNCSU]

Just curious to see how many of you guys charge for designs... or if you do designs for the customer in order to get the j-o-b. Reason I ask.. got some lip today from a customer that requested a design on a new construction house and after we presented the estimate he said he could afford to install the landscaping right now. Two weeks later I call him today and he says he is getting another guy to install the irrigation system for a third of what I was going to do it for. I ask him once he told me that where he wanted his bill for the design to go to. He about craped a brick when I told him $480. We usually include it in the package if we get the job, but if we don't then we charge $85 an hour design time for it. (I have a full time designer on staff and I have to pay her salary too!!) So anyways I told him that I would work with him on the fee if he would allow us to install in phases. Front now and back later. What do you guys think?

[carcrz]

Charge them by the hour, but free w/ installation. Sounds like you did the right thing to me.

[salandscape]

You just need to let them know that upfront, if it isn't mentioned they think it is a "Free estimate". I would just in the future let them know I have afull time designer on staff and we charge X per hour or per design, it is free if we do the job. Avoid the conflict upfront if possible

[nlminc]

Good question! I was wondering what people here do in the situation with presenting designs. I've been subing this out for the past couple of years, but have not been happy with the designs. I bought Pro-landscape last month and have started to learn the program. I know how to design, but the time to draw is just something I can never find the time for.

Anyway! I've heard of people charging from $150 - 400 for a design and $65.00 thru 85.00 for consultation.

Did you leave this design with the customer without being paid for it? Did he know the ball park cost of the design up front? I would not leave a design with a customer without being paid for the cost of the design. You should offer to deduct the amount from the overall cost of the job in the end.

I find a lot of people call and want someone to come over and spend hours with them giving out "ideas" for their property. Most "drop a brick" when you tell them there's a charge for this service! Can't believe people also expect a free design from us!

Question for all of you designers out there........Do you get the cost of the design up front or when the customer sees the final plan and gives a yes or no on the install. I would believe it would be hard to collect after you've spent your time on the design and the customer say's they don't care for the design. Would like to hear what your experiences have been.

[TurfdudeNCSU]

[QUOTE=nlminc;1682488]Good question! I was wondering what people here do in the situation with presenting designs. I've been subing this out for the past couple of years, but have not been happy with the designs. I bought Pro-landscape last month and have started to learn the program. I know how to design, but the time to draw is just something I can never find the time for.

That's why I hired a designer. I have dyna scape design software, but never had the time to use it (besides staying at the office into the wee hours of the night) I can across a girl that just graduated from college with a landscape design degree and it's been a blessing ever since. She does an average of 2 designs a week and helps with material purchasing. We've gotten every one except the one I was mentioning above that's why I haven't been so concerned over pricing before for the customers.

[PaperCutter]

For me, the design is separate from the install, and I have a very detailed contract for design portion. I spell out that I provide them with a master plan based on the info they give me and my recommendations as a designer, and that payment is due upon presentation of the plan. Hasn't been a problem yet, even with the ones who couldn't afford to implement what they told me they wanted. That's for a design fee ranging from $1000-1500, so I would say it's all about making sure everyone has the exact same expectations going in.

[nlminc]

For me, the design is separate from the install, and I have a very detailed contract for design portion. I spell out that I provide them with a master plan based on the info they give me and my recommendations as a designer, and that payment is due upon presentation of the plan. Hasn't been a problem yet, even with the ones who couldn't afford to implement what they told me they wanted. That's for a design fee ranging from $1000-1500, so I would say it's all about making sure everyone has the exact same expectations going in.

Wow! $1000-1500 for the design fee.........more power to you! Do you do any in the - $500.00 range? Could you give me an idea of how your contract for the design layed out?

[wysiwyg420]

We're around 12-1500 for a design. All depends on scope and property.
When clients say "well this guy will give me a free design", I say go for it. Free advice is worth every penny you paid for it! Do you want a sales pitch for an install or a design?
We've billed up to $5500 on a design, no prob. $75 just to come out unless a referral. If they're too cheap for $75 that's applied towards work, then they're too cheap to work with us. Got to weed out the crap and not waste your time w/ free this and that.
If I get the feeling we're going to get shopped or they say they wand a "bid" or getting estimates, I give 'em just enough info. A proposal and a bottom line price so they can't pick it apart.
I'd forget about waiving fee if working in phases. Who's to say this guy want just get someone else to do 2nd phase. I'd say put up or shut up, show me the $.
Get a deposit on dn up front - give a timetable, balance due at final presentation, Lay the invoice right on top of the plan.
Design and Install are separate jobs. How many architects design buildings for free? You think I could call up 5 architects or builders and say I want to build a house, how 'bout a free design? I'll use you if I like your ideas.
Your time is valuable and your knowledge and expertise was not free to you. Why should it be free to everyone else? Raise the bar!

[Turfdoctor1]

i don't know how you can charge somebody for design and not tell them up front. I don't do landscaping or irrigation, but it seems to me like the design should be part of your estimate. if you don't get the job, you don't get the job. So, if you are paying a designer, and that is jacking up your estimates, I would side with the customer.

[PaperCutter]

i don't know how you can charge somebody for design and not tell them up front. I don't do landscaping or irrigation, but it seems to me like the design should be part of your estimate. if you don't get the job, you don't get the job. So, if you are paying a designer, and that is jacking up your estimates, I would side with the customer.


I totally agree. If you see that it's more involved than something you can sketch on a napkin and sell and you'll be investing design time for which you expect to be compensated, the client has to know that up front. While it's understandable (and they made us do it where I used to work), it just comes across as b**chy to present a job, not get the sale, and be all "hey, I either need you to hand me that design back or give me a check for $500."

Letting the client know up front that there's a design fee also really lets you know who's serious and who's kicking tires, and it allows you to stand out for saying "look, I could throw some numbers at this and maybe be close, but if you pay for a design I can give you an accurate price AND a quality design." I won't do a job without a design, and I won't do a design without getting paid. You can rebate the design fee if you get the install, but in the end someone is paying for the designer's time (or yours). May as well be the client.

[wysiwyg420]

Yes, you have to explain to clients that the design is a separate charge. If you don't, then don't expect to get paid. Never had a problem with that. If they don't go with you at least your time is covered. If they put so little value on my time and expertise that they want the design credited back, I say fine, we'll apply %50 of the design cost to the job. Sooo, my 500 design just became 750, They think they're getting something free and I've just charged the same as I would have without the discount.
Also, how can you estimate something that you haven't designed yet? So you can look at a proerty and say that'll be $35,000 and the design is $1000. I'd love to get that crystal ball because the estimate all depends on # and size of plants, materials chosen, site conditions and things you just don't know until you've done a design. You might not even know if a client wants conc. or stone for a patio for example, so how can you price it before the design process?
Design process is always first and we'll ask for a target budget. I met a guy yesterday who's having me and another designer do a rough plan just to see initial ideas. I'm charging $600, no refund. I'm %99 sure we got the job because he's the brother of a good friend, he's meeting with the other designer just because she works for the builder and he feels obligated. Once we get though this conceptual, I'll probably have another $1000-1500 in final plan and going over all the details. We talked about budget and what we could do because I need to keep it in mind when designing. Budget for phase one this year is $70k hardscape and front yard, next year $80-90k for pool and surrounding, following year $40k finishing up the back and around future workshop. I have no idea what we'll do yet and couldn't possibly give an estimate without a design in place first.

[Dreams To Designs]

Design is an additional facet of landscaping, just as irrigation, maintenance, hardscaping or water features are. I'm sure everyone would charge for any of these other services, why not design. For the contractors I work with, I typically charge $50 per hour for designs or consultations. If working directly for the client, the fees range from $65-$75 per hour for my time. Most designs run from $1000-$2500 with the occasional bed design or simple lighting design at $500 or less.

If the client or contractor cannot see the worth in my design work, I will not work for them. My time, knowledge and abilities are extremely valuable as is everyone's here. We all have skills and talents and should be rewarded for those. Without good design and project management, any project can fall apart quickly and end up being a haphazard collection of disjointed ideas. A good designer will be able to put all those ideas together in a cohesive plan that will please the client and make the installer a tidy profit.

Kirk

[Team-Green L&L]

We got several calls last year to make me think twice about free designing. This design is not ours, but the client wanted us to bid on it's completion. I took a picture of the design (at the clients request) and thought about bidding the job. After all, I knew what the previous bid was thanks to the client. I decided against bidding on another companies design, but the project was not installed by the company who designed it in the end.

[PaperCutter]

Nice presentation. If the client paid for the design, I'd have no ethical objection to bidding it- although us designers rarely agree, and I'd probably change stuff.

[Team-Green L&L]

Nice presentation. If the client paid for the design, I'd have no ethical objection to bidding it- although us designers rarely agree, and I'd probably change stuff.

The client did not pay for the design. He had several designs that he had gotten for free by convincing designers (as he tried to convince us) that they "had the job already" and having them work for free. He then called several other companies to have bids done on the designs he had already gotten, knowing that the bid would be better with a completed design.

I was offended by his methods and I'm sure that the guys that designed these were also. If he HAD paid for them, I would've bid it in a heartbeat.

[PaperCutter]

Man, that's crappy. Where I used t work we did free designs, and that wasn't uncommon- they'd have us design the job and then get it built by some scrub crew. I'm so over giving it away for free. Sixteen years of experience is worth something.

Good on you for passing on this one.

[wysiwyg420]

Good for you Team-Green! You know what gets me is some folks will screw you over in a heartbeat. But if they feel slighted they call BBB/ripoffreport.com / angieslist.com, etc. and post all kinds of bad things about you whether true or not.
Shouldn't there be a place where honest hardworking small business guys can post about they're experiences with clients? Kinda like a reverse BBB for us? If there's someone who you know is a cheat, why not post about the experience and it might save another hardworking small biz guy a headache? Maybe a forum broken down by state, city, neighborhood. There's really nothing wrong with it because service biz is a two-way transaction. We can be held hostage by some a-hole client so why can't we do the same? I'd check the forum before visiting or contracting with someone just as part of our lead qualifying process. Maybe BadClient.com or Workingmansrevenge.com