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Backlap
02-10-2007, 02:19 PM
Any one care to comment about this pump picture. There are two pressure tanks. I have not seen this system work. Could someone maybe explain how they think this system works.

londonrain
02-10-2007, 02:27 PM
looks like a two pump system...

Wet_Boots
02-10-2007, 02:33 PM
:p Stereo :p

Backlap
02-10-2007, 03:02 PM
Care to teel how this system may work

Wet_Boots
02-10-2007, 03:10 PM
Any more pictures? Two pressure switches would indicate two pumps. Is there anything connected to the larger pipe? Looks like it just terminates at the ball valve.

Backlap
02-10-2007, 03:16 PM
I'm not sure if that 2" male adapter screws into that 2"brass ball valve. what is the red device that is on the larger pump...where the smaller pump does not have one.

londonrain
02-10-2007, 03:18 PM
Looks like they had been connected together at one time, my guess is they needed two pumps to run whatever it is feeding....the pump setup on the right looks newer..

Backlap
02-10-2007, 03:28 PM
The pump system feeds the irrigation system for a big common are for a housing development. The small pump looks to small to run alone tor the area. Do you know what the red device is on the left pump. Do you think they together are in tandem.

Wet_Boots
02-10-2007, 03:39 PM
The red device might be called a Process Control Valve. They come in many flavors. You could find more with the model number and manufacturer name. For instance, it might be designed to regulate pressure (being that the valve on the right seems to be a pressure regulator)

IRRITECH
02-10-2007, 04:56 PM
That looks like a two pump system totally indepent of each other. The red valve and the black valve on the other pump look like Cycle Stop Valves, which would make sense w/ those small tanks.

Repairs
02-10-2007, 04:58 PM
Well I am far from the pump expert, but have a pretty good idea of what is going on here. There are two submersible pumps in the well, with two pressure tanks. The pressure tanks appear to be terribly undersized most specifically the 2". The well on the right has a pressure reducer on it, and the 2" has a variable flow rate valve on it. The variable flow rate valve was described to me by my pump expert as a valve to control pressure and flow to keep a large pump from cycling too frequently. My best guess is that the system that this setup is running has some zones that are low flow rate, and some zones that are high. The small pump is probably setup to kick on at a higher low-pressure point in order to serve as a make up pump. If the small pump kicks on first, and can keep up with demand to raise the pressure back up, then the big pump never kicks on. If that big pump kicks on to serve say a 10 gpm zone it is going to be cycling like crazy, and will probably start blowing fittings. On the flip side, if the same system has some zones that are 60-80gpm, the small pump will never keep up with demand. By having both theoretically you can serve both flow rates safely. Regardless the pressure tanks look to be severly undersized. Looks like the large pump has been disconected from the system @ the ball valve.

Wet_Boots
02-10-2007, 05:29 PM
The right-side device could be a Wilkins BR-4 pressure reducer. The left-side device could also be a pressure-reducing valve. The smaller brass valve connected to the red (diaphragm) valve could also be a pressure reducer. When connected to the (otherwise sealed) upper diaphragm chamber, the smaller reducer makes a reducer of the larger diaphragm valve. The combination eliminates the large friction loss of a simple pressure reducer.

The pressure tanks are more like shock absorbers in this application.

Repairs
02-10-2007, 05:33 PM
The right-side device could be a Wilkins BR-4 pressure reducer. The left-side device could also be a pressure-reducing valve. The smaller brass valve connected to the red (diaphragm) valve could also be a pressure reducer. When connected to the (otherwise sealed) upper diaphragm chamber, the smaller reducer makes a reducer of the larger diaphragm valve. The combination eliminates the large friction loss of a simple pressure reducer.

The pressure tanks are more like shock absorbers in this application.


Wet boots, it looks like you are right that is a br-4. The plastic limiter bushing between the adjustment bolt and the body give it away. Good eyes.

speedbump
02-12-2007, 09:33 AM
I agree, it looks like two wells, since there are two tanks. The other devices look like Cycle Stop Valves. They keep the pump running with just a minimum of water usage. This keeps the motors from burning up. Since some sprinkler systems have zones using differing amounts of water, a tank alone will not keep the motor from cycling which is detrimental to the motor's health. Cycle Stop Valves have been around for quite a while and do work extremely well. You can see them on my site (http://www.pumpsandtanks.com/cycle_stop_valves.htm) and use the links there to get you to the Cycle Stop Site if you need to learn more about them.

bob...

Backlap
02-13-2007, 08:35 PM
I finally found out about this pump set-up. I was told the pump on the right is called a jockey pump. Does anyone care to explain how this system would work. Thanks

Wet_Boots
02-13-2007, 10:03 PM
Long-distance guessing games are a bit of a waste. Why not photograph and positively identify the components of that rig. Especially the reducers/whatever on each side.

PurpHaze
02-13-2007, 10:31 PM
I finally found out about this pump set-up. I was told the pump on the right is called a jockey pump. Does anyone care to explain how this system would work.

Don't know about in an irrigation system but am a little familiar in fire sprinkler systems. A jockey pump basically keeps constant pressure on the fire suppression system. Then if a fire sprinkler is triggered the jockey pump shuts down and the main pump fires up supplying all the water to all the sprinkler system where activated. Think of it as kind of a constant pressure switch. The jockey pump keeps the pressure up so that when the main pump initiates the lines are basically already primed and water starts flowing immediately.

Jason Rose
02-13-2007, 10:42 PM
My guess is that the setup allowed hose faucets incorpoerated into the system to have pressure all the time fromt he smaller pump, running a hose would only need a small amount of water, using the small pump. The larger pipe/pump would only be triggered on when the irrigation system was turned on.

Basically this is the same setup I am going to use at my house once I get my well drilled. I'm going to have a submersable for the irrigation system that will only run when the controler turns it on with the relay. I will also have a small centrifugal pump that will be on a pressure switch, always pressured up, for running hoses, ect.

PurpHaze
02-13-2007, 11:05 PM
Kinda sounds like the same principle then as a fire suppression system? Constant PSI/GPM from a smaller pump and then larger PSI/GPM from a larger pump when needed.

Repairs
02-14-2007, 05:26 PM
A jockey pump is what I was describing on my above post. It is what is used to keep the sytem pressure up on low volume applications without kicking on the big pump. That is how most golf systems are set up.

mikecaldwell1204
02-14-2007, 09:43 PM
the device on the left side of the pump is what we call a clay valve. its job basically is to regulate pressure. it works by opening and closing slowly as to not let to much water enter or exit the line reducing water hammer. we usually see them here alot when your main water source is off a golf course feed.

Wet_Boots
02-14-2007, 11:17 PM
Cla-val (http://www.cla-val.com/) is one of the principle manufacturers of specialized control valves used in irrigation. Ever so useful. Pressure regulating. Pressure sustaining. Slow opening. And more. And combinations thereof.

PurpHaze
02-14-2007, 11:33 PM
REPAIRS: I'll have to think about giving you full credit of two points for your answer as it didn't have "jockey pump" in it. It is worth at least one point though. :laugh:

speedbump
02-15-2007, 10:05 AM
After looking at this picture again, I notice the larger of the two isn't hooked up to anything. After the CSV there is a ball valve that has nothing attached to it. So the small pump is the one being used for whatever it's being used for.

bob...

Lugnut
02-16-2007, 12:01 PM
Would it be possible that the pump on the left no longer works? Judging by the steel piping I am guessing that it is older than the pump on the right with the PVC and it not being connected to anything I am guessing that it is possible that it was replaced by the pump on the left. Perhaps when the new pump was put in they realized that the larger size wasn't needed and downsized

Jason Rose
02-16-2007, 12:04 PM
Could be, and maybe they just lacked the equipment needed to pull a pump that size, probably 3 or 5 hp. so they just ran a new (smaller) one down as far as they could get it in the hole...

bicmudpuppy
02-18-2007, 11:32 AM
I would have called the red device a Cla-valve as well. Yeah, others make them, but I've never actually seen a pump station with another brand in it. A "jockey" pump is as described above by others. Its purpose is to provide lower flow capabilities, i.e. hose bib or single zones, etc., Yes, the 2" line is disconnected at current time, does it still work? If the original design team needed that 2" line, then it needs to work. The "jockey pump" will have pressure switch settings 10-15psi higher than the main pump or pumps. When flow starts, the jockey pump will kick on. If it can't maintain pressure, the main pump will then kick in. The settings on the jockey pump can vary from application to application, Usually, the jockey pump will kick off 5-10psi below the main pump. So, as an example, the system can be set up like this.......Jockey pump kicks on at 70psi and off at 85 psi, The main pump kicks on at 60 psi and kicks off at 100 psi. If the jockey pump and maintain more than 60psi, then the 2" pump will never run. If the 2" pump comes on and can exceed 85 psi, then the jockey pump will kick off. In some situations, both pumps will run. My first real experience with pump stations was at a golf course on an old mercury switch control panel. Our jockey pump was 25hp. The "main" pump was a 60hp, with a third 50hp pump on line. Our summer target pressure was 160psi. Jockey pump kicked on at 140psi and off at 150 psi. Main pump kicked on at 130psi and off at 160psi. the third pump kicked on at 120psi and kicked back off at 140psi. The old pressure tank for this system was 6' in diameter and about 12' long. I don't know how many gallons that works out to be (it was a bladder tank too). With probably 2-2.5 miles of 3 and 4" main line plus pressure tank, a 1" hose had to run a very long time to even kick the jockey pump on.

One other thought, the 2" line disconnected from the ball valve may be the desired point of winterization. Your location is not far enough south to eliminate the possiblity that the blew the system out and that is the poc for winterizing.

Backlap
02-18-2007, 01:26 PM
I think you are probably right with your explanation bicmudpuppy....thanks for the help.