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View Full Version : Trouble with Hunter ASV's


gusbuster
02-13-2007, 07:46 PM
As I was told by a friend in the trade, ASV's are a CA. thing.

In all the years that I've installed ASV's here, I've never had a problem like I'm having with Hunter ASV's.

I switched from Rb's to hunter, primarily for the points and material cost. In 2005, I had no problems with leaks using Lasco m.a.'s and the hunter ASV's. In 2006, starting with my second case bought, every other valve would leak from the threads.

Contacted Hunter's customer service regarding the issue, what i was told that Lasco's m.a.'s didn't go into threads enough. They recommend switching to spears m.a.'s.

Sounds kind of funky to me because if I use any other brand valve(irritrol, R.B. toro ect...) with the Lasco fitting, I never have any kind of problems, but the Hunter asv, nothing but trouble. The problem I have with getting Spears fitting, only available at Ewing. Horizon and JDL all carry Lasco fittings. Hate to make a special trip to Ewing, just to buy male adapters.

Any of you have a good contact with Hunter? Would like to try to figure out if they are having problems with production or something. I could go to the slip version of Hunter ASV's, but that would limit me to buying those valves while I'm out in the valley as they are not available except special order here in the Peninsula.

Any help would be appreciated.

By the way, been doing this for a long time. The leaks occur whether using tape or paste, hand tight and tightening with pliers, still leaks.

aquamtic
02-13-2007, 08:00 PM
Call Hunter or ask your supply house who your local Hunter rep might be. Call him and explain. You might just have ended up with a bad lot of valves.
Here in the eastcoast our Hunter reps are pretty reponsive to our problems

Good luck!

gusbuster
02-13-2007, 08:30 PM
Call Hunter or ask your supply house who your local Hunter rep might be. Call him and explain. You might just have ended up with a bad lot of valves.
Here in the eastcoast our Hunter reps are pretty reponsive to our problems

Good luck!

I've already have contacted hunter industries and how I got the silly switch to Spears fittings.

PurpHaze
02-13-2007, 09:20 PM
I just installed two Hunter ASV-101 valves in the planter project pictured in another thread and had no problems. However, I used SCH 80 nipples instead of MA's. :)

Personally... If I had my choice between Spears threaded products and those from Lasco... I'd choose Spears 100% of the time.

I'll PM you our Hunter rep's number down here. He spends a lot of time in the bay area so maybe he has part of that territory too. If not he'll know who your rep is.

Dirty Water
02-14-2007, 12:00 AM
I'd reccomend one better and go with Dura MA's.

Wet_Boots
02-14-2007, 04:06 AM
There is a variance with thread geometry, depending on manufacturer. (and they have their reasons for it) I learned this when I was using Richdel antisyphon valves. Some male adapters would all but thread right into the valve so that the shoulder of the adapter and the valve would be butting together, and still not tightly threaded together.

SprinklerGuy
02-14-2007, 07:47 AM
Yep Yep and Yep....

Tell your hunter rep that you still want to use the valves....tell him you hate going to Ewing but Horizon doesn't carry the right M'A's as recommended....

If he is a good rep....he will take care of it. If he won't , email me and I'll put you in touch with someone at Hunter who will....

Or...buy a sh*tload of the ma's you need online or something....I hate Lasco..but that is personal preference, I prefer dura...

gusbuster
02-14-2007, 04:14 PM
It just irks me that in order to use their valves, I got to use a certain brand M.A. to prevent leaks. I would think that throughout the industry, there is a set standard as to how deep and kind of thread that a m.a. should be.

Hayes and Tony , Thanks for help.

It's not that much of a big deal to go from horizon to Ewing as both places are located from me either going south or head north(Stockton or Modesto) 15 minute drive, and 5 min from to either place, it's just the fact that having to go 2 different places. If I only go to one, have time to enjoy some coffee and cookies(horizon-Stockton, there always one of the guys selling girl scout cookies or some kind of fundraiser) and network with other contractors.

Wet_Boots
02-14-2007, 06:42 PM
You have to remember that valve manufacturers are wary of their product splitting at the threads, so they make their valves a bit 'out of spec' - the mismatches are their fault, basically. Really slathering on the teflon tape was one workaround on the old Richdels. Using TOE nipples is what I prefer now, cutting a 'machined' sch 80 nipple in half to make two of them from a single nipple.

gusbuster
02-14-2007, 07:23 PM
You have to remember that valve manufacturers are wary of their product splitting at the threads, so they make their valves a bit 'out of spec' - the mismatches are their fault, basically. Really slathering on the teflon tape was one workaround on the old Richdels. Using TOE nipples is what I prefer now, cutting a 'machined' sch 80 nipple in half to make two of them from a single nipple.
I tried this also, either the fitting split and then had to use a nipple extractor to get the old piece out, or it still leaked. (Were you talking about the old Richdel\Lawn Genie valves)

What I think, since they are the only ones that I am aware, relatively new in my area also make a slip version, which if I choose to use, will seriously consider as you and Purp recommend use a sch 80 toe end nipple. Never have had to do this so kind of new, but will try this on some new systems I will be doing in the next few months.

From when dad was installing, I know I have a bunch of old nipples sitting somewhere in the storage shed.

PurpHaze
02-14-2007, 10:03 PM
Using TOE nipples is what I prefer now, cutting a 'machined' sch 80 nipple in half to make two of them from a single nipple.

Same here... we just cut a SCH 80 nipple in half and then you have the two TOE nipples. Lasco's are smooth between the threaded ends but Spears' (actually prefer theirs because of the leading blank area prior to the first thread on the end) nipples have a hexagonal area for a wrench dead center. On Spears we just make a cut on each side of the hex and we have our two TOE nipples.

We've used SCH 80 nipples on PVC, galvanized, brass, etc. threads and haven't experienced leakage. We use TOE nipples all the time to transition from metal to PVC.

Wet_Boots
02-14-2007, 10:08 PM
I haven't used the Hunter ASV's, or the Rainbird. I still like Richdel/Irritrol, and know they can be repaired years down the line. The solenoids might bear watching, though.

I never split a Richdel valve, even when I tightened the fittings with a wrench. With a sch 80 TOE nipple glued into a slip tee or elbow, and plenty of teflon tape applied (I use cheap import tape these days, and apply extra wraps) one can hand-tighten the valve and nipple/fitting and have a drip-tight connection.

As for split fittings, I don't ever use sch 40 fittings with female threads in new work, and thus, I never have split fittings. (If you can split a male adapter, let us know)

PurpHaze
02-14-2007, 10:21 PM
I tried this also, either the fitting split and then had to use a nipple extractor to get the old piece out, or it still leaked.

I'm assuming you're talking about MA's cracking? I've never broken a SCH 80 TOE nipple in a valve. I also do not subscribe to the "1/4 turn after hand tight" recommendation of any threaded PVC coupling. I put about three wraps of Teflon tape on and then tighten to the point I feel is tight enough. In critical situations I'll also use some Rector Seal in addition to the tape. In all my years I've cracked excatly ONE valve doing it this way. I've also only ever had ONE of my TOE nipples start leaking (2" valve lateral side) and that was easily corrected.

As far as cost goes, getting two TOE nipples by cutting a regular SCH 80 nipple in half, is probably a push. It only takes a couple of seconds to cut the SCH 80 with either a saw or snap cutters.

PurpHaze
02-14-2007, 10:27 PM
As for split fittings, I don't ever use sch 40 fittings with female threads in new work, and thus, I never have split fittings. (If you can split a male adapter, let us know)

When I used the FA's on the attachment to the galvanized pipe in those planters a couple of weeks ago, was the first use in many years. We keep a few of them around and use them only if all other plans have been exhausted. :)

I could of gone a different direction but it was quick and easy. :laugh:

Wet_Boots
02-14-2007, 10:36 PM
As far as cost goes, getting two TOE nipples by cutting a regular SCH 80 nipple in half, is probably a push. It only takes a couple of seconds to cut the SCH 80 with either a saw or snap cutters.Note that you may not be able to grab any old sch 80 nipple and saw it into two TOE nipples. Always start with a 'machined' nipple. They are not molded in a single piece, like those with the hex area. They are machined from sch 80 'nipple stock' PVC ~ some molded sch 80 nipples don't have the same OD as the pipe does, and they cannot be cut into TOE nipples and glued into fittings.

PurpHaze
02-14-2007, 10:39 PM
Note that you may not be able to grab any old sch 80 nipple and saw it into two TOE nipples. Always start with a 'machined' nipple. They are not molded in a single piece, like those with the hex area. They are machined from sch 80 'nipple stock' PVC ~ some molded sch 80 nipples don't have the same OD as the pipe does, and they cannot be cut into TOE nipples and glued into fittings.

Well... If the Spears nipples (with hex) are molded they're still much better than Lasco nipples.

Wet_Boots
02-14-2007, 11:01 PM
Spears also makes machined nipples, you merely specify that detail when you order them. Always machined. Ask for them by name.

PurpHaze
02-15-2007, 08:05 AM
Spears also makes machined nipples, you merely specify that detail when you order them. Always machined. Ask for them by name.

I don't order them or ask for them. Our suppliers carry Lasco and Spears depending on which supplier they've gotten the shipment from. I walk in and say, "give me 75 1/2" nipples, 75 3/4" nipples and 100 1" nipples." :)

Wet_Boots
02-15-2007, 09:23 AM
Who requires anyone to purchase only what is on the suppliers' shelves? If orders are for case or carton quantities, from a manufacturer they already deal with, an order for machined nipples just gets piggybacked onto the next shipment they receive. Machined nipples are a standard catalog item, but one has to specify them by name, because they carry the same code number as molded nipples.

Spears, along with other companies can create new nipple molds, and the next molded nipples you buy may very well be unsuitable to cut into TOE nipples. And if you complain about such a change, the suppliers/manufacturers response would be "So What?" since there already are TOE nipples for you to purchase.

gusbuster
02-15-2007, 08:21 PM
I'm assuming you're talking about MA's cracking? I've never broken a SCH 80 TOE nipple in a valve. I also do not subscribe to the "1/4 turn after hand tight" recommendation of any threaded PVC coupling. I put about three wraps of Teflon tape on and then tighten to the point I feel is tight enough. In critical situations I'll also use some Rector Seal in addition to the tape. In all my years I've cracked excatly ONE valve doing it this way. I've also only ever had ONE of my TOE nipples start leaking (2" valve lateral side) and that was easily corrected.

As far as cost goes, getting two TOE nipples by cutting a regular SCH 80 nipple in half, is probably a push. It only takes a couple of seconds to cut the SCH 80 with either a saw or snap cutters.

You are correct. When I was talking about splitting, it was the m.a. splitting at the thread part. I have yet split a valve body that I didn't run over with my truck....another story.

Regarding toe nipples, I've never seen it done up here in my area (even the commercial complexes I maintain)so have to claim ignorance, though I know what you are talking about. I will have to try this way on my next few installs. Even in the manifolds that I've had to re-do, we always have used schd 40 pipe with only kind of failures due to semis running over boxes.

gusbuster
02-15-2007, 08:51 PM
Who requires anyone to purchase only what is on the suppliers' shelves? If orders are for case or carton quantities, from a manufacturer they already deal with, an order for machined nipples just gets piggybacked onto the next shipment they receive. Machined nipples are a standard catalog item, but one has to specify them by name, because they carry the same code number as molded nipples.

Spears, along with other companies can create new nipple molds, and the next molded nipples you buy may very well be unsuitable to cut into TOE nipples. And if you complain about such a change, the suppliers/manufacturers response would be "So What?" since there already are TOE nipples for you to purchase.

You make valid points BUT.....

I can see case quantities for heads, valves and common fittings that I use on each install, but would have to draw the line on buying case quantity for nipples. I just don't use them enough to warrant buying more than a box at a time.(storage is an issue also)

Regarding what you said in your second paragraph, I think that is the case which is happening with me regarding the valves. They've changed production, technique or production problem(should of notified suppliers in this case) which is what's causing my problem. However, when you change something(like in my case) that I would have no problem with using on other brands of valves, you don't build customer loyalty by changing specs on them. You don't answer "so what". It's not that one big customer that takes you through life, but the many little loyal customers.

Also, the point of a supply house is if you need a part 90% of the time it's because you need a part asap. Sometime the luxury of planning and ordering ahead is not there. So if I'm going to Ewing, JDL or Horizon for parts, I'm going there because I need them now. If my main supply house Horizon doesn't have it in stock, I'm very lucky that I just do a quick few blocks drive and have JDL and Ewing a few minutes away. It's has happen but very rare that one or the other doesn't have an item I'm looking for. Plus, I don't like being stuck with one particular brand even though the companies like R.B. and Hunter would love if you exclusively bought there products.

John

PurpHaze
02-15-2007, 09:57 PM
Who requires anyone to purchase only what is on the suppliers' shelves? If orders are for case or carton quantities, from a manufacturer they already deal with, an order for machined nipples just gets piggybacked onto the next shipment they receive. Machined nipples are a standard catalog item, but one has to specify them by name, because they carry the same code number as molded nipples.

I've never worried about machined vs. molded SCH 80 nipples as I've never run into a problem using them. It's just no big deal for me. :)

Spears, along with other companies can create new nipple molds, and the next molded nipples you buy may very well be unsuitable to cut into TOE nipples.

We routinely pick up boxes of 1/2" through 1" SCH 80 nipples (for swing joints) and then usually get 10-20 1-1/2" through 3" SCH 80 TOE nipples at a time for use with our valves. Sometimes our main supplier will be out of the larger TOE nipples so we'll get 12" long regular nipples and cut them in half. Have never run into a problem with cutting any of the full nipples in half (regardless of size) whether molded or machined and using them as TOE nipples.

Wet_Boots
02-16-2007, 04:48 AM
As far as special-ordering nipples goes, or any non-stocked fitting, one box is all you should ever need to order, if it's from a manufacturer your supplier is already stocking product from. Any manufacturer offering TOE nipples is machining them from nipple stock PVC, so rest assured they can also offer machined sch 80 nipples.

Back when, all nipples were machined. Then molds were made, to save on manufacturing costs. The common lengths were first to be molded. If you couldn't get a machined 1x4 nipple, maybe a 1x5 would still be machined. I think it was a Spears rep who clued me in to asking for machined nipples by name, and being sure the word 'machined' was on the order.

I'm not trying to sway anyone who is currently using molded nipples cut in half as TOE nipples. If your supply works for that, more power to you. I have numerous boxes of sch 80 nipples that will never work as TOEs, because their diameter is just a bit undersized, or because they have prominent mold marks/lines. It's for onlookers trying to learn that I make the distinction of getting machined nipples, in order to be certain they can be cut into TOE nipples. Take care of that detail, and brand name will be unimportant.

gusbuster
02-18-2007, 11:44 PM
Just a little follow up...

I went to my supplier on Friday and Dave actually called up the Hunter sales rep right there on the spot. Even Dave wasn't too happy with the answer the Hunter rep gave. After everything was said and done, pretty much I was told to bring in the valves that are leaking for exchange even though they have been installed. Make me happy for the moment, but doesn't still address the issue of having to use a special item just to use their product. Will see what will happen as the Hunter rep did take my number.

Remote Pigtails
02-19-2007, 08:26 AM
I had a CEU class Friday and the Hunter rep was there and I brought this to his attention. He has never heard of Lawnsite and not too many of them have. Anyway I'm going to e-mail him the original question and tell him to read this thread. He seemed to think it was due to the difference in the hardness of the plastic.