Really tired of explaining why I cost more than others! [Archive] - LawnSite.com™

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KirbysLawn

07-19-2000, 01:31 AM

Often I get an email or call for a prospective customer: "I got several estimates from $90 - $100 for mowing, edging, trimming, and blowing, you are $140 what's the difference?"HOW do lawn companies charge $90.00 for a months lawn service to homes that are $350,000.00 + and have mowing areas greater than 8000 sf for $90.00? Here was my reply: Mr. Smith,I base my prices on my operating expenses and time on job site. There are a multitude of lawn services out there as I'm sure you know. Many of these companies give their bids based solely on a guess, they last only a year or two and go out of business. Companies that bid $90.00 for a lawn either have extremely low overhead or have no idea what there operating expenses are. After taxes on the $90.00 earned only around $59.00 remains, divide that by 4 weeks and they are making $15.00 a week! Now, figure in truck fuel, mower fuel, trimmer fuel, trimmer line, and payroll and what's left? I have not even included liability insurance, licenses, equipment insurance, and on, and on, well you get the idea. This is why so many lawn care companies fail, they charge less than neighborhood kids charge!Hope this answered your question. If they are able provide lawn service at $90.00 and meet the requirements below, I can't tell you why not to go with them:* Are they insured? I am for $1,000,000.00 * Are they licensed? * Are they certified? * Do they offer spraying services * Do they offer deep-root fertilizing? * How often do they sharpen their blades? I sharpen every 8 hours. Ask this in person so you can see their response when asked. * Are they members of any professional associations? This helps them gain knowledge, learn new techniques, learn about new products, and more. I serve on the CGMA Board of Directors and am a member of The Carolina Grounds Management Association, The Turfgrass Council of NC, and The Professional Lawn Care Association of America.Please call me if you have any more questions. Ray KirbyDidn't know what else to say.Ray---------- Ray Kirby - Kirby's Cuttin' Edge Lawn Maintenance Home Page (http://www.kirbycuttin.com), My Truck (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=681893&a=4967153), Lawn Photos (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=681893&a=4967155)Edited by: KirbysLawn

lawnsurfer

07-19-2000, 02:36 AM

I coudn't have said it better.

thelawnguy

07-19-2000, 06:23 AM

"I got several estimates from $90 - $100 for mowing, edging, trimming, and blowing, you are $140 what's the difference?"Is this a one-shot complaint or something that keeps happening? If the latter, I think you need to either cut expenses or increase productivity to compete at a level your market will bear.In my area, a 8000 s.f. lawn with trimming goes for 22-25/week. 10 minutes and you should be in and out. Doesnt matter if its a 350k McMansion or 100k ranch on the lot.Bill

MOW ED

07-19-2000, 06:31 AM

If you don't mind, I'm gonna copy that and use it. Thanks Ray.

jeffyr

07-19-2000, 07:07 AM

Great letter Kirby. and no, I don't think $140 a month for an 8000ft.2 plot is too much.

Charles

07-19-2000, 07:55 AM

You don't have to take on every yard at any price. Ijust take the jobs that pay my minimum (35$) or greater. Leave the scraps for the lowballers. If you question what i charge then you can't afford me or you are a tightwad. Driving to and unloading for just one yard that pays 22 to 25$ is just a complete waste of time. Unless you have a cluster of yards at that one stop. Customers will be happy to pay these low prices forever if we let them. Kirby, just take the yards that pay a profitable rate that you can live with and don't worry about the rest. Plenty of customers out there that will pay what you are worth.

lawrence stone

07-19-2000, 02:35 PM

Kirby $20 a mow and blow is the going rate in fly over country for a 8k homesite.YOUR problem is that you have WAY to much overhead to be fooling with such small potatoes. If you did not have a NEW 30k truck, 5K trailer that weights 4500 lbs loaded, and all new equipment you too would be able to make money doing small residentials.For about $8k total investment I can put a used truck, trailer, 3 walk behinds (44,52,21)trimmer, edger, and blower on the street.With a 2 man crew one can do 40 $25 small residentials in one day.

BRL

07-19-2000, 05:49 PM

Ray, I love your letter. But I have to agree with the naysayers on this one. I would use that letter for potential customers that are looking for a full service program. With insurance & licenses etc., I'm still able to make money charging the market rate in my area for mow & blow, which is generally $25.00mow & blow for 5,000 - 8,000 sf. Now, my full service customers are paying more for my expertise and the market allows for that pricing. I find that those customers are more educated (about business in general, value, landscaping) & care more about how their yards look. When doing mow & blow we boogy through the yards ASAP and make money; and when we're at full service customer we look at those brown spots in the lawn and address them, we keep everything pruned nice, etc., etc. and those customers pay fairly for that kind of service. I would say Stone is right, you're not looking for those mow & go customers, they're not your niche market, so don't waste your time with them.

BRET

07-19-2000, 08:10 PM

KIRBY ISN'T IT AMAZING THAT WHEN A PROFESSIONAL LAWN CARE SERVICES A PROPERTY THAT THEY ARE COMPARED TO A MOW,BLOW AND GO LAWN MOWER PERSON. THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE ALL TOGETHER. I AM IMPRESSED WITH YOUR OUTFIT FROM WHAT I SEE IN YOUR PICTURES AND POSTS. THE PRIDE AND PLANNING THAT GOES INTO A PROFESSIONAL IMAGE AND NICE EQUIPMENT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN NEVER BE COMPARED TO A GUY THAT HAS A RAGGED OUT TRUCK AND SORRY EQUIPMENT. I HAVE SEEN POSTS WHERE PEOPLE SAY THEY HAVE COMMERCIAL EQUIPMENT FOR OVER TWO SEASONS AND I'M WONDERING IF THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IMAGE OR THEY ARE JUST SATISFIED WITH MAKING A LIVING DAY BY DAY. I MADE THE MISTAKE TO POST THAT I WAS UPSET THAT THE MARKET IN FLORIDA IS SO CHEAP. I DO OVER $ 30,000.00 A MONTH IN LAWN MOWING A MONTH. I SAW IN THE PAPER ABOUT A KID WHO DID $ 320,000. LAST YEAR AND GROSSED $ 80,000. BUT YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE PICTURE OF HIS OLD EQUIPMENT. IF I DIDN'T RE-INVEST MY MONEY BACK IN MY BUSINESS I GUESS I WOULDN'T BE ABOUT TO BUY MY 5TH AND 6TH TRUCK. AND THESE ARE NEW FORD F-150S. NOT AS NICE AS YOURS BUT FROM YOUR POSTS I SEE YOUR ALSO A EMT/MEDIC . HELL YOU GUYS DESERVE EVERYTHING NICE IN THE WORLD FOR SAVING LIVES EVERY DAY. I WAS A GREEN BERET MEDIC AND SERVED IN COMBAT FOR MY COUNTRY SO MY ATTITUDE IS I'M WORTH WHAT EVER I WANT TO CHARGE A CUSTOMER. I DON'T CARE WHAT GO BLOW JOE IS CHARGING BECAUSE HE ISN'T THE SAME CALIBRE. E-MAIL IF YOU WANT TO TALK ANY TIME BRET.

KirbysLawn

07-20-2000, 12:14 AM

I will try to reply to each post.ThelawnGuy: How can you arrive, mow, edge, trim, blow, and load on a 8000 sf lawn in 10 minutes? I know $22.00 in 10 minutes = $132.00 an hour, but I find it very hard to believe you could keep up that rate or pace all day once you factor in driving loading and so on. Lawrence Stone: Read above. Stone, $35.00 is my minimum, $20.00 is my 14 year old son's minimum. Heck, $22.00 a mow for a 8000 sf lawn, neighborhood kids would be screaming lowballer! We are professionals and should charge accordingly. Also, a $350,000 home in a golf course community is not a low maintenance lawn. I already mow in this area and have similar size lawns ranging from $170.00-$210.00 per month, and again this is a luxury lawn and high maintenance with a multitude of natural areas that must be edged around. The $140.00 is only the mow/edge/trim/blow charge, full service with fert, tree treatment, weed control, and such is an additional $45.00 a month.The reason I have top of the line equipment is I want to separate myself from the others. Me comparing my equipment against yours or vise versa, isn't really relevant to this post. If you maintain a business with $8K worth of equipment, are licensed, go to monthly training, have insurance, blah, blah, and can charge $20.00 a mow so be it.My question would be out of that $20.00, how much is profit? I too have a few lawns I mow for $25.00, 3 different single elderly women (so much for minimum). One lady once asked me "I'm paying $25.00 and it only took you 20 minutes?", my answer was absolutely! I just placed $4000.00 worth of equipment on your lawn which allowed me to do it that fast. No more questions from her! Now, 40 lawns in a day? Around here a day would be 12 hours, 40 lawns would be 1 lawn every 18 minutes, not including breaks, driving, loading, and so on, how do you do it? We will use your higher number $25.00, not $20.00. Your $25.00 x 40 lawns would be $1000.00 a day, - taxes I'm estimating (-$340.00) would leave you $660.00. Payroll at 2 employees at (est. $7.00 hr), would leave you with $492.00. Now figure in workers comp and all the other things listed above and what do you have left?BRL: Agree with Stone and the neigh Sayers? Did you not read the 2nd paragraph of my post? This is a $350,000+ home and it has 8000 sf mowing area, of course they will be picky. This is not a mow and blow lawn.lawnsurfer, MOW ED, jeffyr, Charles, & BRET: Thanks for the words of encouragement. I just do not understand how "professional" lawn services charge $20.00 for a 4 service lawn mowing? I made $10.00 a lawn on small lots in a small trailer park, 25 years ago! Just because our mowers are bigger and we mow faster doesn't mean we charges less! Thank God these cheap rates were not around when I was a child, I would have been really pissed!If you are a professional, look, dress, arrive, mow, train, spray, and charge like a professional. Thanks for all of the replies!RayEdited by: KirbysLawn

Charles

07-20-2000, 07:44 AM

Couldn't have said it better myself Kirby.

lawrence stone

07-20-2000, 07:53 AM

Kirby wrote:>Lawrence Stone: Read above. Stone, $35.00 is my minimumToo bad you have just priced yourself out of the all but the biggest residential work.In the North East where the housing density is great a fortune can be had servicing small homes in the built up areas. But no one is going to pay you $35.In fact you can't even service these accounts for you need 3 parking spaces to park your truck and trailer.Real professionals have adapted to thier local market. Real professionals=contractors who actually make money. If you are in a $25 min market and you charge $35 you are SOL.And what's wrong with two guys making you $500 per day?

lawrence stone

07-20-2000, 08:11 AM

Kiby wrote:>The reason I have top of the line equipment is I want to separate myself from the others. Me comparing my equipment against yours or vise versa, isn't really relevant to this post. Sorry but you were the one who started to complain about "unfair" competition.Your equipment costs are about $8 per man hour higher than your competition.BTW my truck got 14.45 mpg on gasoline last fill up. All miles were work related pulling a 2200 lb trailer (total gross) 80% of the time in the mountains.

TGCummings

07-20-2000, 09:45 AM

::In fact you can't even service these accounts for you need 3 parking spaces to park your truck and trailer::This caught my attention, Stone. How do *you* compensate for this? Since getting my new trailer, I've let two customers go simply because they're in a more rundown area where folks are parking their beatup cars up and down the street and I can't find decent, comfortable parking. I don't miss the accounts because I'm glad to get out of the areas they were in, but I'm curious to know how you handle accounts you can't service for lack of parking, or what you'd expect Kirby to "adapt" and do? Unhitch the trailer and load up the pickup??-TGC

greenlawncare

07-20-2000, 10:46 AM

Two problems I see with your approach:(1) The $350,000 home. We've seen this attitude before on this forum, and its scares me. How is that a factor of what the market will bare, your operating expenses, and your necessary mark up? (2) I think you should be figuring in taxes at the very end. Heres why: YOUR WAY: Rev: $1000 AFTER TAX: $650 (35%) EXPENSES: $200 "PROFIT": $450THE RIGHT WAY: REV: $1000 EXPENSES: $200 PROF CON: $800 AFTER TAX: $520 (35%)Big difference. At least in my state we pay taxes on profit, not revenue.It might help to invest in an accountant for a few hours a month.

KirbysLawn

07-20-2000, 11:16 AM

Stone: "Too bad you have just priced yourself out of the all but the biggest residential work."Maybe up north, not around here. Most professional services around here have a minimum wither $30.00 or $35.00. The problem is the other services, you know the Ford Tempo pulling a trailer, and such. They get into a market and give these quotes and then customers expect those prices. If you bid the same price as children, what makes you better? Of course it's more expensive equipment, training (I hope), insurance, and other stuff mentioned above. Why shouldn't you charge a little more?Two guys making $500.00 a day? Nothing wrong with that! My question was "how do you do it? With an average of 18 min per lawn not including driving, breaks, lunch, how do you cut 40 lawns a day? Are the all in a row?greenlawncare, the reason I posted the price of the home is to reflect the quality ogf the area. Some think mow, go, and hit the road. This is a nice home in a very nice area. On the taxes your right, still can't see mowing 40 lawns a day giving full service in 12 hours.

thelawnguy

07-20-2000, 12:21 PM

My truck and trailer combined measures 42 feet with the gate down, which lets me park in front of homes with 50 foot frontage without worrying about blocking the neighbors driveway. I thought long and hard about this before I bought my trailer. No fun pulling in a customers driveway only to have some prick park across the street effectively boxing you in like a turtles...you know.Kirby, to answer your question, I wouldnt. I do lawns that size, and smaller, for $25 a pop but they are in clusters of 3, 4, and 5 per stop. I would be wasting my time loading and unloading for each of these individually. maybe some of you with lower overhead would like the solo accounts, but not for me. I also dont edge sidewalks every week, only when it starts to look ratty."Since getting my new trailer, I've let two customers go simply because they're in a more rundown area where folks are parking their beatup cars up and down the street and I can't find decent, comfortable parking."You really need some neighborhood kid to bounce a baseball off your hood so you can get over the new truck look and stop fretting about it, and get down to business using the vehicle as a tool and not an art object. Put it to work!Bill

BRL

07-20-2000, 04:30 PM

Ray, Yes I did read your second paragraph. I also read your first paragraph: "Often I get an email or call for a prospective customer: "I got several estimates from $90 - $100 for mowing, edging, trimming, and blowing, you are $140 what's the difference?"" I'm sorry if I didn't have my definitions correct, but that statement that you wrote is what I consider mow & blow. According to your post you were competing for an 8,000 sf (I'm figuring that would be an average, as you did write "or more") "mow, trim, edge & blow" against others who were charging a lot less. That's what I call mow & blow, and not full service, so I apoligize. You didn't say you were charging $140.00 vs. competitors charging $90.00 for full service on 8,000 sf. If that's what you meant, then I would tell you that you are both charging too low. If you were comparing your $140.00 for full service vs. competitors $90.00 for mow trim edge & blow, your comparing apples to oranges and its hard for us to make relevant comments for you. If that's what you meant then we're back to my comment that these aren't the type of customers that you want. And if you were comparing apples to apples, I'm going to say again that your business is not geared toward the mow & go customer, stick to what you do best. Other contractors are set up to do that kind of work and be professional & successful at it (and of course there are plenty of scrubs doing the same). Now on to your response to Stone about the 40 lawns. I do mostly commercial mowing but this thread made me think about the mow & go res. cust. that I have and they are in clusters of 3-5 & avg 6,000 - 15,000 sf and the longest cluster of 5 takes about an hour & 20 minutes to do. The other clusters take less than an hour and it does avg. 4 lawns per hour. 40 lawns in 10 hrs and the other 2 hours for traveling between clusters and breaks. He might just be right!

KirbysLawn

07-20-2000, 07:19 PM

BRl, I was wondering how long it would take for the "S" word to appear! :) Good post and you are correct, I did not make it as clear as maybe I should have. I do have my service geared toward the higher end customers, such as this one. I put the price of the homes in the area hoping to get it across it was a full service lawn. As stated above $140.00 is weekly service with $45.00 a month added for year round add-service. And I agree that if you are able to get small lawns in "clusters" a reduced rate may be appropriate. The problem is, do you get all of the lawns at a reduced rate at the same time, or do you pick up one today, one a few weeks later, and so on. If that's the case charging $25.00 for the first lawn caused the others to find out the low rate and it rolled from there and you may have caused the low price, make sense? If not how do you get 4-5 lawns at one time for $25.00?One of the points of this post was if a company wants to charge $20.00 to "mow and blow" in a low maintenance lawn fine. The problem is this is a high maintenance lawn, in a high maintenance golf community, why are these "cheap" lawn companies coming in here giving "mow & blow" prices? They work the lawn one season, the lawn go to crap, and WE as a profession look bad.I sure wished my A/C repairmen priced like this, just got charged $780.00 for about 2 hours work on my system. It sure would be nice for us, as a profession to have a standard pricing schedule, and for everyone to be trained, certified, and insured before they operate a business.TheLawnGuy: Agreed, see my point though? If you find one lawn and charge $25.00, then the guy 2 houses down the street has a service charging $35.00, they switch to you because you are "cheaper", the other guy gets kicked out and it snowballs from there. Basically by the first lawn getting charged so low, you have just lowered the bar for all others! Ray

Charles

07-20-2000, 07:41 PM

If you are charging 20$ to 25$ per yard. You are still playing the customers game. These are the same prices of the mid 80s. Just what will 20$ buy you today? Around here you can get to large pizzas with 3 toppings for that. Granted, if you do enough volume and half kill yourself and wear out your equipment. You can make good short term money. I doubt if your body will hold up to 40 yards a day every day 5 or six days a week. Why should it not work in your favor to have a cluster of yards in the same neighborhood? Instead the owners are given a great discount. Because if you don't give it to them someone else will come along and do it. I understand this is a regional thing. Doesn't make it a right thing. Cost of living has gone way up. Even if you keep your business expenses way down. I don't even see how you people up north can afford your property taxes.

Toddppm

07-20-2000, 08:50 PM

I'm not saying anyones right or wrong, but man that seems high as hell. If you can get it more power to you. Just wondering how much time you spend on a property like that, just mowing , edging , trimming and blowing?Checked out your home page , too much talk about scrubs here. What is tree + scrub care?

thelawnguy

07-20-2000, 09:18 PM

"TheLawnGuy: Agreed, see my point though? If you find one lawn and charge $25.00, then the guy 2 houses down the street has a service charging $35.00, they switch to you because you are "cheaper", the other guy gets kicked out and it snowballs from there. Basically by the first lawn getting charged so low, you have just lowered the bar for all others!"To set the record straight I would not bid on just "one" hoping to get others-you will usually get burned doing it this way. If I am asked to bid on a single lawn, thru referral (the only way Ill take new customers BTW) I will check out the prospective customers lawn and tell them that Ill get back to them in a day or two with a price. In reality I already have my price in mind, and knowing its a referral theres almost no way Im going to miss this bid. So then I go to the neighbors and start asking, Im doing Mr x's lawn, lets discuss what I can do for you since Im going to be in the neighborhood anyways. As long as I get at least one more customer in addition to the referral Im good to go. If I cant get others within a one-stop distance Ill call Mr x and tell him sorry, I cant seem to fit it in my schedule this season. Then next spring if Im still fishing for more work Ill return to the block and try again.Kirby, I think the main point to this thread is, if your selling Mercedes Benz you dont go putting your business cards on every Hyundai in the mall parking lot. Stop trying to sell your caviar to these folks with pb and j's in their lunch bags.Bill

KirbysLawn

07-20-2000, 09:30 PM

Todd, thanks for the notice on the typo! I just fixed it.TheLawnGuy, you answered my question, sounds good, and thanks. The getting burned part is what I'm getting at, your plan sounds good, I hope others use it. As far at the car and sandwich innuendo, this is not a PB&J or Hyundi area or home. I did not put my card on the windshield, they found my web site and seeked my service. Thanks for the info! Edited by: KirbysLawn

bladecutter

07-20-2000, 09:44 PM

Up here in central NY there are guys (many)charging a buck a minute in the high rent districts and the home owners pay it willingly. I the lower rent areas we get $30. per for residential but 50.00 yo 70.00 for a comperable size commercial account.

stick

07-20-2000, 10:30 PM

Let me tell you somethng that I did last month. I talked to all the LMO's I could find working in the areas where I have accounts. Asked them what they are charging per. cut or monthly. Then asked them if they are making any money for them selfs instend of at the mercy of buying parts for our mowers. Most of them said "NO" am not making any money and wish other LMO's would price they self's at a higher rate. Everyone I talk too said exectly the same thing.I told them I was raising my prices on any new bids and old accounts, and asked them not to take any of old accounts due to the fact that they would be shopping around for better prices. We all agree to that and I had some of guys that I talked too accounts asking me too bid there lawns, I did at the new prices that we all agreed on.They all stayed with there old lawn guy.You'll must find a price and stick too it, even with the competion or we will all lose! Edited by: stick

KirbysLawn

07-20-2000, 11:12 PM

Stick, that's great! When I got started I took a survey of local lawn services. I found the going rate for a pro services was $30.-35.00 per cut, so when I started I set my minimum at $35.00. I have not wavered from that price (with the exception of the 3 old ladies with small lawns). Have lost some jobs, sure. None of my competition can look at me a point the finger blameing me for low prices.I meet twice month at the Carolina Grounds Management Association, we talk and share ideas, and yes, we even share our prices! I would much rather have a level playing field when bidding, and have very competitive prices, anyway, I have no secrets.Ray Edited by: KirbysLawn

thelawnguy

07-21-2000, 06:51 AM

"I would much rather have a level playing field when bidding,"Screw that, Id rather be King of the Hill. A level playing field didnt get me, as a solo operator, my 4-bedroom home in an affluent community, decent truck (bought new) and equipment (also purchased new) and a nice car . BTW all but the home are owned free and clear."None of my competition can look at me a point the finger blameing me for low prices."If you spend your days worrying about what the competition thinks of you or your pricing then be satisfied with your two-room cold water flat and twelve year old truck with the rotted cab.Kirby this isnt directed at you personally but at LCO's in general who have the "follow the flock" mentality. Bill

southside

07-21-2000, 07:27 AM

Kirby, Thats an excellent letter.It pretty well covers everything that needs covering.Karl

Toddppm

07-21-2000, 09:56 PM

I looked at the original post again, and kind of answered my own question . That is not high as hell, seems very reasonable for a monthly charge, i average about $35 for crappy yards up to very nice $500k houses with hardly any lawn.

BRL

07-22-2000, 01:34 AM

attribute the mow & blow guys' cheap pricing in your neighborhoods to the fact that they don't know they're losing money. I didn't know my first year, but I figured it out quick and fixed it. I would love to do what Stick did, but it is impossible around here because there are too many contractors. On the next street over from my house there are 20 houses and there are 6 different companies doing 8 of those lawns. Add 2 more different companies for every next block you go to.

BRL

07-22-2000, 01:53 AM

The first part of my post got cut off so I'll try to remember what I wrote. Ray, So to compare apples to apples you're charging that customer $195.00month for full service. That's a good price, although I doubt yopu'd get it around here & I'll explain why below. I get my residential accounts the same way Thelawnguy said in his post. I do try to get new commercial accounts without referals if I think I want them. With the exception of 2 very profitable commercial accounts, all of my mowing is within 2 sq. miles. I agree with your theory about lowering the bar, but I assure you that I didn't start it here (although I'm contributing by not sticking to the prices I wanted on these lawns) I tried to get $30.00cut from 2 of these referred clusters but they told me they were paying only $22.00. I told them $25.00 was my minimum & got them. They are easy, quick and profitable lawns so I wasn't really concerned about wether I was bringing the market price down. My choice was get 3 or 4 lawns on a street, or not have those lawns. I'm in a market where there are 100's of cutters so its hard to push pricing higher with so many people to choose from.

Scraper

07-24-2000, 01:45 PM

One other thing you guys have missed is that some people really see no value in having their lawn maintained. They just want it cut. Plain and simple. You can drive thru these $300k+ neighborhoods and see lawns done professionally, ones done semi-profesionally :) , ones done by the homeowner that look professionally done and ones done by the homeowner at their whim. Some people just want their grass cut so it isn't a field. These are the ones you just continue to drive by and shake your head until the house goes up for sale and hope maybe the new owner wants the lawn to look good at the price you want.