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Illini_Fan
03-02-2007, 08:58 AM
I am a OPE dealer and I am getting into the lawn care business and I am going to market my company with this slogan "We mow for less". Anything under 20,000 square feet would be $25 for mowing, trimming, edging, and clean up. $35 up to 35,000 and that should cover most yards.

Currently, we have three locations, between Chicago and Orlando. Our plan is to go nationwide, possibly by franchising. We think we can revolutionize the whole industry with our new company and provide less expensive lawn care to your customers. What do you guys think?


Nah, just kiddin'! But, you might want to think about it, before you ask for all the discounts you think you deserve. I can't speak for all dealers, but, I promise you that I could put a serious dent in the LCO's profit around here if I wanted to. Wouldn't make much sense if I want their business, now would it? I think most dealers will "take care of you" in their own way. Assuming you truly are the model customer. On the other hand, if I could make a decent living and not have the overhead associated with having a storefront, I may need to rethink things.

Food for thought. If, you are running a successful lawn business, you won't need to beat down the OPE dealer and you shouldn't.

lawns Etc
03-02-2007, 09:09 AM
Yeah dont beat the dealer down who charges you $37 for a Bobcat throttle cable that you can get at Mowpart or other sponsor sites for under $10 he has to eat too I guess hes eatin lobster while Im at Mcdonalds trying to feed my family off the dollar menu

2G&D
03-02-2007, 10:19 AM
The $37 vs. $10 thing may be a point on that one item...but that misses his point and I think Illini has made a very well stated one. In most cases a dealer will be slightly higher and in all cases a better price can be found....but the point is not so much about dollars as it is relationship.....all the time we are saying that for the sake of the industry we will charge what the "market can bare " and that lowballers are illigitimate %$&^%$.......so why then would we patronize the lowballers on the otherside of the business....we are all in this together...neither can exist without the other....I will patronize my dealer everytime it is within reason, even if it is a bit more...for the sake of the industry and a mutually beneficial relationship.....his success helps insure mine.

jcantrell
03-02-2007, 10:38 AM
If a dealer wants to compete with me I discontinue using them for service/purchases etc.

stumpslawncare
03-02-2007, 10:39 AM
Great Point and food for thought

carcrz
03-02-2007, 11:14 AM
You had me all PO'd for a second there. I wuld definitely not use a dealer that decided to go out & do the same thing I am doing.

Illini_Fan
03-02-2007, 11:27 AM
You guys get it and jcantrell is almost getting it. Lawns Etc. is way out there playing defense, probably needs to reread and think about what I said. I should probably change "model customer" to loyal customer. I realize the need to control your overhead and all, but, WE ALL must make a living. You can drive around or whatever and try to beat down dealers, in the end, is it really worth it? Early on, I used to do some of these things and then one day I needed a local appliance dealer to service my Big Box purchase that I saved $100 on and he smiled and was very friendly and then wham!!, he gave me the service ticket and it was for around $30 or $35 for the repair and the service call(about 1 hour). I paid him and he said "Have a good day" and not one word about where I bought the washing machine. Where do you think I will buy the next one?

Illini_Fan
03-02-2007, 11:30 AM
You had me all PO'd for a second there. I wuld definitely not use a dealer that decided to go out & do the same thing I am doing.

My dad lives just north of you in Cameron and we may open up a branch there. I believe you got the message. Have a good one.

Illini_Fan
03-02-2007, 11:34 AM
Yeah dont beat the dealer down who charges you $37 for a Bobcat throttle cable that you can get at Mowpart or other sponsor sites for under $10 he has to eat too I guess hes eatin lobster while Im at Mcdonalds trying to feed my family off the dollar menu

What was the shipping charge for the online purchase and did the dealer have one in stock? If not, that is his downfall here. How long to get the online order? Time is money, you know. That is what you guys keep saying.

You could get steaks and cook them yourself for the money you spent at Mac' Place.

pjslawncare/landscap
03-02-2007, 12:14 PM
Hey Illini_Fan, u sound a bit like an arrogant sob to me. Business is business. Sometimes I lose a customer to a lower price, but I dont cry about it, people do that. If I can get a better deal somewhere else, guess where Im going. I dont need a dealer that thinks he has me by the balls, I stock my own parts and have my own quailified mechanic. Have a nice day :walking:

mattfromNY
03-02-2007, 12:24 PM
When I used to sell ATV's and Motorcycles, I hated it when people were always shopping me against the internet and out of town dealers. Like Illini said, Time is money. Shop me once, OK. Come back to beat me up again, my time is worth YOUR money, then. Come back a third time to beat me up, your at the BACK of the line. Take a number, and if you need me to show you which one, I can show you on either hand.
We had a dealer in another town that absolutely would beat anyones quoted price as long as it was on paper. I sent several customers to him with quoted outrageously low prices (WAY lower than cost), they absolutely STOLE the machines from him. Then guess where they came for service... right back to us.
Loyal customers have different ways of being loyal, but we all know who they are.

lawns Etc
03-02-2007, 12:31 PM
I could have waited weeks as it was not needed in a pinch im loyal to my dealer but he needs to be loyal to me too I dont mind paying a little xtra but that was crazy and I complianed and he was like do you want it or not since he got 20k plus last year out of me I would hope for some help but guess not
I could get it for less than $20 delivered in 1 day and guess what now I have 2 spares for less than his 1
A Dixie chopper dealer in my area is a lawn service company who competes everyday here and their impact is very minimal to everybody else we all have customers but they are not loballers though so I did get your point just felt like expressing a point of my own.

ozark
03-02-2007, 02:56 PM
I guess it really depends on the dealer. I have dealt with some dealers that wont give you the time of day because you arent high up in the community and you didnt buy 10,000 in product the year before. I have also dealt with others that have stayed open late and will bend over backwards for you. I have no trouble giving them an extra 10% over what i can buy it online. If that guy doesnt have the part ill go online and wait two days to get it instead of dealing with the first dealer i mentioned. As for supporting cut throats on the opposite side of our business i dont feel that i am doing that by going online. When i can get the EXACT part online cheaper thats money in my pocket. If a homeowner wants to go with a cheaper mowing service whats the chance they are going to get the same EXACT mow, trim job that i provide. As we know this is highly unlikely with fly by night mowing services.

supercuts
03-02-2007, 06:23 PM
you had me at hello, wait, you didnt say hello, anyway, i buy through my dealer because he takes care of me, its sad how some guys complain about a dollar difference here and there. if your going to spend $489 for a back pack blower, and you find it for $425 on ebay, you might be kicking yourself in the rear when you need help with it

lawnman_scott
03-02-2007, 06:54 PM
The problem here is that you cant find a "good" dealer. I ordered something, the middel tube for a blower. They didnt have it in stock but only a week at the most to get it. Well I had it all taped up so it was ok. It finally came in about 3 weeks later, thank God, because the thing was getting real bad. Went and got it and finally the old one broke completly. Got the shiny new tube out to put it on and........................ yes, it was the wrong f'n one. But they told me to just bring it back and they will get the right one. Only problem was I had a huge lawn to blow, was about 45 minutes away.....

Good dealer, I dont care if its $10 or $37.

Dunn's
03-02-2007, 07:15 PM
What about when the dealer charges you the same price for one set of 3 blades for a 52" mower and the online guy sells 4 to 5 sets of 3 blades for the same price. Think about that one. I never ever Haggle a dealer I look at the machine or part ask the price when it is crazy over priced I say thank you and buy it somewhere else. 95% of dealers have no loyalty. Actually any business that sells anything to business's does not. They just came up with a business or job that helps themn get their hand in your pocket with as little work as possible. I don't mind waiting for a part from the dealer as long as he doesn't think I am going to pay to have it shipped to his store. Especially because the shipping is almsot always more than the part. It is just a way for them to get even deeper in my pockets.

Flex-Deck
03-02-2007, 07:26 PM
Hey Illini_Fan, u sound a bit like an arrogant sob to me. Business is business. Sometimes I lose a customer to a lower price, but I dont cry about it, people do that. If I can get a better deal somewhere else, guess where Im going. I dont need a dealer that thinks he has me by the balls, I stock my own parts and have my own quailified mechanic. Have a nice day :walking:

Hey pjslawncare - you are the one that sounds a bit like an arrogant sob to me.
Reread his original post - he said nothing about having LCO's by the balls. He is just making some very good points that allow dealers and LCO's to have a good business relationship.
About the only thing in your infintile post that makes any sense is "Business is Business": I like my relationship with my dealer. We respect each others expertise, and the need to make a respectable profit.
Maybe that ficticious company he was kiddingly going to set up needs to be set up in your neighborhood to make you understand the point he is trying to make.

2G&D
03-02-2007, 07:40 PM
I am mildly surprised at the responses from the LCO's on this thread...Of course there will be the rare occurance of a particular part and a big price difference...there are "bad apple" dealers, " bad apple" LCO's, and "bad apple" customers....These will always be true.

There are LCO's that are only trying to get in the homeowner's pocket too...they won't last and neither will the dealer like that....

The reason I am so surprised is this...

I am fairly new to Lawnsite, and one of the first things that stood out to me was some of the older guys who clearly made the point of CHOOSING A DEALER...NOT A BRAND. There appear to be few supportive posts here for Illini and some seem to miss his point.

No one expects that anyone should spend hard earned dollars with am egg head, rear end dealer.....or that a homeowner should spend money with a rude LCO, or that an LCO should put up with a PITA customer...

This will only be my third year in business, and I am still new...but one thing that I have learned and that the successful, experienced professionals at Lawnsite have taught me is this...

The people who make it in this business long term and are sucessful and provide an honest well earned living for their families build MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL relationships....with customers AND dealers.

pjslawncare/landscap
03-02-2007, 07:45 PM
My dad lives just north of you in Cameron and we may open up a branch there. I believe you got the message. Have a good one.

Hey Flex deck, reread this. Maybe u share the mentality of this statement. Is this the kind of dealer u want, not me.

lawns Etc
03-02-2007, 07:57 PM
I guess that we are all anxious to get started thats where all this anger is coming from al least mine is !!!!!

2G&D
03-02-2007, 08:03 PM
Jodi, DIT, Shadybrook, Runner...where are the older guys on this ?

2G&D
03-02-2007, 08:05 PM
What about you too Envy ?

Woody82986
03-02-2007, 08:18 PM
My dealer is a pretty nice guy. He normally always has anything I need in stock. I had a minor problem last season and he postponed a 12 o'clock lunch break because I screeched to a halt in his parking lot at 11:58 needing something fixed. He was already in his truck pulling out when I came in and he backed up and helped me out. That being said. He hasn't ever tried to rape me on the price of anything either. If he was out of this world more expensive than what I could get somewhere else or online, then I would explore other options if I needed to. Its a symbiotic relationship until one party or the other decides it is more of a parasitic relationship.

Ideal Lwns & Landscp
03-02-2007, 08:31 PM
If only the mower repair man charged $30 to $35 for a service call and repair!! Our local appliance guy charges $60 an hour plus parts.

Team-Green L&L
03-02-2007, 08:40 PM
Now that's the Home Depot and Lowes strategy. Let's start doing installations and hurt our customer base with greed.

Mlc gmc03
03-02-2007, 09:26 PM
well the local dealer here is a real piece of work he cant even say hi to you he bought a large mowing company a few years ago, there service is horrible you take a mower in and get it back the same way 3 weeks later they never have loaners they dont value there customers the prices are off by thousands on the big stuff they talk about other dealers and say there part of organized crime lol oo and did i mention hes a competiotor who will sit there and tell ya how much money hes making cuttin grass when it seems that the only thing he is making is a real bad name for himself

Illini_Fan
03-02-2007, 09:59 PM
There are good cops and bad cops, good drivers and bad drivers, good LCOs and bad LCOs, and even good dealers and bad dealers. It is up to every individual to decide for themselves, who they are going to deal with. Nowhere, did I state that all LCOs should buy from a dealer no matter what the price is. Actually, I was wondering myself, why the cable was $10 online and $37 at the dealer? But, I do not know all the facts either. Was the online cable, just the cable and was the dealers price for a cable and the control lever assembly? I ordered one the other day and I got the whole assembly and I only needed the cable. It is a two way street, both dealers and LCOs need to have trust, respect, and accountability in, for and to each other. These three things alone, will be a sturdy foundation for relationships that will last a very long time. They will also bring more integrity into each of our lives. None of us are perfect and it was not my intention to cause trouble here. I strongly believe in what I have posted and that doesn't make it right, it just makes it my belief. We can all learn from each other.

DFW Area Landscaper
03-02-2007, 11:34 PM
Illini Fan,

Here is what I would recommend to a dealer, coming from an experienced LCO.

Every part you sell has an MSRP.

If you tell a client they are getting 10% off, what is that off of? Your clients are assuming you mean MSRP. But I have found that dealers will say 10% off and what they really mean is 10% off of whatever price they are choosing today.

Example: I bought everything exclusively from my local dealer for the first 3.5 years and never really questioned price...not much. I figured I would never get into the mechanic business and when things broke down, I'd bring them to the local dealer. I figured if I didn't haggle on price, the dealer would take better care of me than the guy who did haggle price and shopped around.

The problem for me was this: I'd bring a mower in for repair and it would often be 2 weeks before I could get it back. Enitrely too long.

I finally decided to take ownership of my own repairs and I immediately realized why the local dealer was taking so long to make my repairs...he didn't stock any parts.

So anyway, I was being told I was getting 10% off and I assumed it meant MSRP.

The next thing I know, I've got an entire drawer full of parts. It finally got to the point that I didn't know what parts I had on hand. So then I took every part I had and logged into a spreadsheet, along with the price I paid for it, if I could find the receipt.

I think you already know where this is headed.

It didn't take long before I bought the exact same widget from my local dealer that I'd bought in the past. This time, the price was a lot lower.

Hmmmm....

If I'm getting an automatic 10% off, why would the price drop significantly just a few weeks later on the same part?

All trust was gone. I don't know how they were setting the price that they took 10% off of, but whatever they were doing, it was inconsistent and cost them a lot of business.

If your client catches you doing this, your dealer loyalty goes out the window, immediately.

I now have a way to audit MSRP on parts. If the retail parts industry didn't play this little game, it wouldn't be necessary. But I am convinced the entire industry does this.

And not just with lawn mowers. This is how the car dealerships make a ton of money, I am certain. As long as it's a part that the client probably hasn't ordered recently, or that they probably won't be ordering again, they can literally take a $10 widget and sell it for $200...what is the customer going to do? Bend over and take it, that's what.

The likelihood of a shade tree mechanic taking the time to call another dealership for a price on a widget is probably slim and none. The assumption is that it's Ford who's raping you at $179 for an O2 sensor when in reality it's probably the parts man sitting right in front of you.

So, my advice is, if this is the only way to make money in the lawn mower business, that is, playing games with MSRP on parts, make damn sure you keep track of EVERY part you have ever sold each of your clients. Don't make the mistake of getting a different margin on the same part, because if they are keeping track, you will lose them.

Another thing: I know Honda will ship over night, for free, on parts orders of $100 and up. You order them on Monday, you have them on Wednesday. I am sure most manufacturers operate this way. Just explain this to your clients. I actually had to get that out of the Honda sales rep after weeks of voice mail and telephone games with Honda corporate. I just can't imagine why, if you're a dealer, and a client comes in with an order for several hundred dollars worth of Honda parts, you would put that client in queue with your regular weekly Honda parts order. Why not get it ordered and get it done? Sure, it's more paperwork, but you are getting paid to do paperwork...that's your job!

I guess what I'm saying is, you don't have to be the absolute cheapest. People like to do business with people they've dealt with before. Most of your clients will be loyal as long as you don't give them a reason to check prices and shipping intervals with competitors. If a client is probably gonna do $XX amount of business with you, give him YY% above or below MSRP and keep it consistent. Dont' play games with MSRP or you will eventually get caught. Just because your customer is dirty when you see him from mowing lawns and might not look very bright, that doesn't mean he isn't smart enough to catch you playing games with parts prices.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

Illini_Fan
03-03-2007, 09:09 AM
Like I said in my previous post, "It is a two way street, both dealers and LCOs need to have trust, respect, and accountability in, for and to each other. These three things alone, will be a sturdy foundation for relationships that will last a very long time."

pbdlandscaping
03-03-2007, 09:34 AM
Hey Illini_Fan, u sound a bit like an arrogant sob to me. Business is business. Sometimes I lose a customer to a lower price, but I dont cry about it, people do that. If I can get a better deal somewhere else, guess where Im going. I dont need a dealer that thinks he has me by the balls, I stock my own parts and have my own quailified mechanic. Have a nice day

I agree. Illini, your arrogance is really upsetting me.

Liquidfast
03-03-2007, 09:57 AM
I agree. Illini, your arrogance is really upsetting me.

R U 4 real????

I would hate to see what would happen if a customer stiffs you on a one time cut call.

He is saying to support your local dealer...if you like him, cut him some slack. If you don't, go somewhere else.

I support my local dealer no matter what as he saved my butt 3 times this winter. I will pay a few bucks more, or less in some cases, for the type of service he provides. Its like an insurance policy for me.

The funniest thing about this post is even if it were true and he cut for that price, there would be someone else tomorrow who would do it for $5 less than that price. LOL. I love a free society.

Mountain Peak
03-03-2007, 10:23 AM
I have two local dealers I'd kill for. I buy from each of them, one is a JD dealer, the other a Hustler dealer. My crew wrecked one of my mowing rigs last spring and totaled almost everything. These two dealers had me up and running the next day with demo equipment and loaners. They let me use that equipment untill the insurance check came.

I'd kill for those guys and I don't question their invoices. They also drop what they are doing for me if I pull in with a problem.

lawns Etc
03-03-2007, 08:13 PM
[QUOTE=Illini_Fan;1733210]the cable was $10 online and $37 at the dealer? But, I do not know all the facts either. Was the online cable, just the cable and was the dealers price for a cable and the control lever assembly?

Actually both were the same exact Oregon part complete

Envy Lawn Service
03-03-2007, 09:28 PM
Read this if you read nothing else.

Earlier in the week, I myself was having this conversation with 3 other individuals I have the upmost respect for. The 4 of us all had intimately different viewing angles on the subject. So it was a conversation you all could have benefited from being involved in.

Anyways, the finger can be pointed in many directions.

For instance, we often blame the dealer for things when it's the MFG's fault.
Other times we get mad about pricing when the dealer is just trying to make a living.
And a lot of times the price playing field is not level for all dealers.
I've known instances where one dealer paid more for his product than the next dealer could sell it for.

On the other hand, a lot of times, the MFG and dealer just are not "IN TUNE" to our needs.
Sometimes we have to make decisions we don't want to because of it too.

But sometimes I wish we could all just come off it for once!!!!!!

The truth of the matter is that nearly all commercial dealers out there that sell homeowner equipment, and commercial equipment to homeowners.....

Well to those dealers, they are glad to take our money every chance they get.... but we commercial guys are the enemy.

Any dealer that says this is not true is not being honest in one manner or another.
Either lying or gouging.

And I just wish for once the conversation could be honest.

*********************************************

I understand that a lot of dealers make very small margins on selling new products. And I understand that sometimes their cost for the same product is more than the retail price of some other dealers for the same thing.

But that's between the dealer and the supply chain.

I understand that most dealers make their money on repair labor and repair parts.
Specifically non-warranty repair labor and parts.

I also know I've been willing to be gouged for things in the past too.

In the end, the character of the market is shifting now, and a lot of people are unwilling to change with it.... and that goes for all parties... MFG's, distributors, dealers, and end users.

It's high time we all got together and figured out how to resolve some things together.

2G&D
03-03-2007, 09:55 PM
Envy....that my friend was a post by an experienced business man....thank you...Where as your post did not contradict mine...I did not have the experience to have thought of the perspective your post lays out.


a very respectful thank you.

Illini_Fan
03-03-2007, 11:10 PM
In the end, the character of the market is shifting now, and a lot of people are unwilling to change with it.... and that goes for all parties... MFG's, distributors, dealers, and end users.

It's high time we all got together and figured out how to resolve some things together.
__________________
ENVY

Home run here! Thank you.

If the dealers and LCOs trust each other to be professional and respect each other's goal of making a decent living and should a problem arise, either side can ask the other to be accountable for what they did or didn't do and settle the issue. By doing these things, the LCOs and dealers will truly share an interest in each other's business and both will prosper.

Envy Lawn Service
03-04-2007, 02:21 AM
In the end, the character of the market is shifting now, and a lot of people are unwilling to change with it.... and that goes for all parties... MFG's, distributors, dealers, and end users.

It's high time we all got together and figured out how to resolve some things together.
__________________
ENVY

Home run here! Thank you.

If the dealers and LCOs trust each other to be professional and respect each other's goal of making a decent living and should a problem arise, either side can ask the other to be accountable for what they did or didn't do and settle the issue. By doing these things, the LCOs and dealers will truly share an interest in each other's business and both will prosper.

That's exactly right.

I'm the type of rare bird that wants to see everyone succeed.
I want me and everyone around me to make a good living...
And I'm happy for anyone who's doing better than me.

When I buy something from a dealer, I want him to be happy about the sale and not resentful. I want him to see me as a source of income and a good customer, not dread the site of me rolling in. He's happy, I'm happy and we are both making money.

But when the time comes, I also expect him to EARN his premium.
And I expect him to be proactive rather than reactive to any issue I might have.

For me, the trouble has been that this just hasn't been the case.
I've paid the premium and got strung high and dry down the road.

Things have changed, and although you might not like my kind, if you want my money, you have to service me differently than the old way you have your homeowners. It's like trying to slam a round peg in a square hole. It just isn't going to work.

If it's a warranty issue, fix it and take up the warranty claim with the MFG...
You can afford the wait, I can't.

If you want me to pay 100% + markup on parts, you better have them in stock.

If I'm down and you don't have the part in the bin, don't give me the excuse.
Not when you have a warehouse and showroom full of units just like mine.
Pull the part off of a stock unit and send me on my way.
Again, you can afford to wait... I can't.

If you want me to pay your shop labor rates, I expect to be on my way today.
I can't get by as easily as a homeowner can...

We are a HARD market to service... no doubt about it.
Fast pace, high pressure, low tolerance.
I can totally sympathize with why dealers might wish things would go back to the way they were.
But the fact is, they are not, and if you want a piece of the commercial pie...
Well you gotta have the reciepe right.

The cheese has moved, and the dealers in my area don't seem to realize it.
Our end of the market is going downhill.
So we can no longer afford the hometown dealer premium without the performance.

I finally got fed up myself.
Couldn't find the dealer with the right reciepe of products, services, support and performance.
That's why I went to Lesco... it was never about the price.

DFW Area Landscaper
03-04-2007, 10:03 AM
Envy,

I think you are expecting way too much from a local dealer.

Remember, one dealer might retail Scag, Honda, Toro, Snapper, Stihl, Echo, Husqvarna, Ferris....the list goes on and on. All of these manufacturers each have dozens of models to choose from AND the part numbers for these models can change over time, even though they're still the same model.

I would never expect a local dealer to break down a brand new unit and remove a part to get me up and running again. I think the burden for that falls on us in the way of having spare machines on hand that are ready to go when the production unit fails.

From what I've seen, 12 month commercial warranty really means "if it's working right when you take it, we've honored our warranty. If you're doing enough business to wear out the wear parts in less than 12 months, we are sorry, but those are wear items, not covered under warranty." At least that's been my finding with commercial warranty from Honda.

I didn't have these kinds of low expectations when I started out. Originally, I did expect my local dealer to drop everything else to get me up and running when I had a break down. Originally, I did expect to have my machines repaired if they started to wear out in under a year. Originally, I did expect my local dealer to have all parts in stock.

My expectations are much different now. For lack of a better word, my expectations are lower.

Having said that, I do expect my local dealer to

A.) Have new machines in stock, ready to go if I am out of spares
B.) Not play games with MSRP on parts
C.) Place my parts order with the manufacturer immediately if it's a large order ($200+) WITHOUT a shipping/delivery fee
D.) Deep discount my parts prices below MSRP.

Now, a new guy, or a home owner, should not expect these things because they:

1.) Don't have their expecatations grounded in reality
2.) Don't yet understand that 12 month commercial warranty really means "as-is", provided it's working when you take delivery
3.) Order the wrong parts and then expect to be able to return them for a full refund (if I order a part and realize I don't need it, I pay for it and keep it)
4.) Don't have a spare machine to get them through break-down periods

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

Illini_Fan
03-04-2007, 02:22 PM
You preach for a while and I will turn the pages, my friend!

Mark

2G&D
03-04-2007, 02:42 PM
I guess I had the chance to "voice" my 2 cents on this subject...

I stilll am still set aback at the conversation...as a new guy to this site...to see the application of anticdotal evidence as a reason to not support the concept that illini laid out.

Regardless...great thought provoking thread Iliini.... and Envy, thank you and some others for the voice of experience.

Illini_Fan
03-04-2007, 06:03 PM
I guess I had the chance to "voice" my 2 cents on this subject...

I stilll am still set aback at the conversation...as a new guy to this site...to see the application of anticdotal evidence as a reason to not support the concept that illini laid out.

Regardless...great thought provoking thread Iliini.... and Envy, thank you and some others for the voice of experience.

The time has come for this thread to go away. It has served it's purpose.

Thank you all,

Mark