1st Year of Organic Program

[Pundit]

Having been in my house for 5 years and not wanting to do the quick, and I believe dangerous, fix of chemical treatments on my lawn, I have located and hired a local Organic Lawn Care company. I was wondering if anyone could offer insight as to whether I should do an aeration and seeding before the first treatment. I live in PA and the gound is still frozen but is thawing. I did slit seed last fall but the lawn is a mess (lots of clover) and needs much attention. Thanks for any help.

[mrkosar]

First, let me tell you to be patient with the company. It will work, but will take time, some extra services, and possibly some manual weed pulling in the beginning. I would recommend aeration and overseeding this spring, then again in the fall for the first year. after that i would do it every fall. once you thicken the lawn up to where there are no bare spots you will rarely see weeds. you might have to pull 2-3 weeds per week by hand or with a weedhound.

Now if your lawn is more than 50% weeds, you might as well nuke it with Round Up and start over completely. Also, ask the company if they do any compost topdressings. This will help build up your soil life much quicker, and improve your soil structure. This is great following the aeration.

How much are they charging you for your lawn if you don't mind? How many square feet is it? How many applications? I just like to see what companies are charging for organic lawn care these days.

[Pundit]

Aeration, seed, top dress and then the 1st treatment?

[Pundit]

Thanks for the reply. I have waited 5 years to sart the process so I can be patient. The company is called Naural Lawn of America. They are the only organic one I could find in my area. They are charging $62.00 per treatment for 7 treatments based on a treatment area of 15,000 sq. ft. I don't know if that is a good price because they are the only ones in my area. I think it is comparable to the chemical co. charges.

[Prolawnservice]

Thanks for the reply. I have waited 5 years to sart the process so I can be patient. The company is called Naural Lawn of America. They are the only organic one I could find in my area. They are charging $62.00 per treatment for 7 treatments based on a treatment area of 15,000 sq. ft. I don't know if that is a good price because they are the only ones in my area. I think it is comparable to the chemical co. charges.

Thats way too cheap for a true orgainic program. I'm in NJ so I know the COL is a little higher, but my bridge program is twice that price, there is no way a TRUE organic program could cost that little.
After reviewing their website it seems they offer an "ORGANIC-BASED" lawn program, bunch of marketing BS, to people who don't know enough about how to shop for an organic provider. Do some research, ask what they will use, decide for yourself if that is what you want after reviewing the facts. True organic products are usually not more than 12% N that's the first # in analysis, they are selling blended products with 25% nitrogen, if that's what the put on your lawn, its not organic.

[Pundit]

I had and have some of the concerns you mentioned. The Company told me that they use an 18% Nitrogen Fertilizer. I did recognize the distinction in their advertising regarding "organic Based' and "safer" (not safe). However, even though I am just outside Philadelphia they are the only service I could find with even a pretense of being organic. I would welcome any info. regarding any true organic services in my area.

[mrkosar]

i do agree with prolawn that they are not offering a pure organic program if they are putting down organic based fertilizers with 18% nitrogen. however, from my research of this company they should be able to offer you a pure organic program (not sure about the PA franchise), and i'm sure it will be more expensive....but in the long run worth it.

i believe there is nothing wrong with a "bridge" type program, and feel it is better, and safer than the companies out there blanket treating lawns with unnecessary chemicals. so in this sense, i believe in "bridge" type programs because i feel the fertilizer is better than the normal pure synthetic ferts out there, plus the reduction of chemicals is significant. IT IS a good amount of marketing bs, but everything in business is about showing your positive side, while hiding the negatives. that is marketing. that is how you drive sales.

so, my advice...see if they offer another program that is completely organic. if not, look into ordering organic fert online, then putting it down yourself. or have them do a bridge type program and be happy with the fact that they are reducing the pesticides and that you are probably getting a much more complete fertilizer than some of those other companies offer, for example ones with dogs on the sides of their trucks.

[NattyLawn]

Pundit, where are you located? I'm in Lancaster County, but you said your right outside of Philly.

Anyway, I did have a short stint as a salesman at Naturalawn, and the branch I worked at (Kutztown) did have an organic program that put down their 6-2-2 (I think that was NPK) CGM blend 4 times per year. It will def. cost more than the 62 per app they quoted you at. That program was for the more established lawns, and yours sounds like it's not quite there yet. If you want to aerate, seed and topdress this spring make sure there not putting down a pre-emergent along with the fertilizer as this will inhibit new seed germination.
For best results, take a soil sample (send to a lab or ag extension), fix any nutrient deficiencies (with organics your building the soil), then kill and seed after Aug. 15th. I recommend seeding in the fall, unless you can water and keep up with the turf. Spring seeding will only get a short growing season before heat and summer stress hit, and the new seed will require attention. Seeding in the fall, will get 2 growing seasons before stress hits and gives the turf a much better chance of survival. This is all sight unseen of course. From the sound of it, you might be able to do all of this yourself.

Prolawn: Naturalawn has a DIY program and I never understood why they sell the products they do to the consumer. They don't use most of them in the service end, but from the way the company works, this varies from branch to branch.

[Pundit]

I am in Montgomery County. You would think there would be more choices around here. I will call the Co. again and see the exact programs they offer and the pricing. Thanks for the input.

[scottreil]

Prolawn, some of the chicken manure based products can be as high as 18 percent, and I see a lot of the guys in our area basing their "organic" programs on just that product. Urea IS more water soluable, so it is more like the chemical fertilizers in that 1) there is a quick release from the water soluable part and 2) unlike most organics you can burn a lawn but good if you aren't careful...

And that is where any disagreement ends. There is no real soil building going on here, and certainly no real understanding of the biology that IS being created or already exists. So simply applying a certain # of times per year without testing is a shotgun approach at best, and considering the chicken poop approach's downfalls, could well lead to a bacterial crash and anaroebic conditions in the right circumstances. Physician, heal thyself...

S

[Prolawnservice]

Prolawn, some of the chicken manure based products can be as high as 18 percent, and I see a lot of the guys in our area basing their "organic" programs on just that product. Urea IS more water soluable, so it is more like the chemical fertilizers in that 1) there is a quick release from the water soluable part and 2) unlike most organics you can burn a lawn but good if you aren't careful...


There are no true organic products with that much N. :hammerhead: Marketing terms and uninformed public = big money, and a leave a bad taste in peoples mouth for organics. A true organic company will follow some sort of guidelines, and will have the sense not to use any synthetic products, especially under the guise of an organic program.

[turfsolutions]

I have a business in delco pa. Natural Lawn is not necessarily the company most people believe them to be. They most likely do not use 100% organic fertilizer, rather a standard fertilizer that has some organic base to it. If you read their program they do use synthetic herbicides as well. I will give them credit as they are more enviromentally friendly than many other companies out there. They still are a large company and sometimes as a result, you don't know if they guy making the applications is knowledgeable. In Pa. you don't have to be liscenced to make lawn applications, just registered with a company that has one liscenced appicator.

What I say to my customers is that in the beginning of your lawn renovation process you will in many cases have to use synthetic herbicides to get the weeds under control and allow the grass to mature. Once the grass is mature then an organic program is very beneficial with weed control done on a spot spray basis.

Contact me if you would like any information on my company.

[Pundit]

Thanks. I am going to give it a shot myself this year and see how I make out.

[Naturalman]

Thanks for the reply. I have waited 5 years to sart the process so I can be patient. The company is called Naural Lawn of America. They are the only organic one I could find in my area. They are charging $62.00 per treatment for 7 treatments based on a treatment area of 15,000 sq. ft. I don't know if that is a good price because they are the only ones in my area. I think it is comparable to the chemical co. charges.

I've done some research into the products NLA uses in their programs. It is produced at a chemical fertilizer factory called Spring Hill, I believe. It is traditional chemical fertilizers laced with some sewage sludge "biosolids". Their typical program that they recommend is use of this product plus 2 to 3 synthetic pesticide treatments, including a pre-m and spot treatment for weeds. I find this very deceptive.

[mrkosar]

not really deceptive if they offer a pure organic program too. in my opinion they are still maintaining lawns in a safer manner than some other companies that just haphazardly spray unnecessary chemicals as band aids.

not sticking up for them, but i see tons...tons of companies in my area spraying unnecessary chemicals because it is efficient for them. they don't care about the soil, pets, children, etc...all about the bucks.

[Pundit]

I found a local store that has a nice supply of organics. I am gong to do it myself.

[turfsolutions]

not really deceptive if they offer a pure organic program too. in my opinion they are still maintaining lawns in a safer manner than some other companies that just haphazardly spray unnecessary chemicals as band aids.

not sticking up for them, but i see tons...tons of companies in my area spraying unnecessary chemicals because it is efficient for them. they don't care about the soil, pets, children, etc...all about the bucks.

You say you see tons and tons of companies spraying harmful chemicals. How do you know what they are spraying? You probably would see me out there spraying a lawn and think the same, but more than often I am spraying or spreading a natural product. Don't be too quick to judge all companies.

[Shades of Green LService]

You say you see tons and tons of companies spraying harmful chemicals. How do you know what they are spraying? You probably would see me out there spraying a lawn and think the same, but more than often I am spraying or spreading a natural product. Don't be too quick to judge all companies.

Turf, What all Natural Products are you applying if you don't mind sharing? I tried going a more organic route this year, but the co. i was going to use Tech Terra organics would not split a pallet for me 20 of one 20 of another. i told them i would even pick it up being that they are in NJ. Anyone ever do business w/ them?
-Jay

[turfsolutions]

The organic fertilizer is called earthrite. I get it from a local supplier at a 5-3-2 and 3-10-2 mix. Not cheap and very dusty. I only use this on 1 step per year. I would like to find a less dusty organic fert and use it on all granular fert steps. Still working on that one. I spray Companion and Essential, both manuf. by Growth Products. growthproducts.com Calcium based limestone and gypsum, Potash if soil tests call for. Those to name a few.

[mrkosar]

You say you see tons and tons of companies spraying harmful chemicals. How do you know what they are spraying? You probably would see me out there spraying a lawn and think the same, but more than often I am spraying or spreading a natural product. Don't be too quick to judge all companies.

Very true, i guess i don't know for sure 100%...but most companies around me I know people working for them and their programs. There are several in this area that blanket spray at least 3-4 times a year with herbicide even if a lawn has 5 weeds in it. Just my experience with my local companies. By the way there are no natural companies around me, so I know they are spraying pesticides. So, I guess about 98% sure that they are spraying unnecessary chemicals.

[mattfromNY]

Anyone heard of Fertrell? I have a friend who runs a very large organic dairy farm, and he uses their products.
They are in Bainbridge Pa. www.fertrell.com

[Shades of Green LService]

Anyone heard of Fertrell? I have a friend who runs a very large organic dairy farm, and he uses their products.
They are in Bainbridge Pa. www.fertrell.com

Have you ever used their stuff? Is it Dusty? Prices?
-Jay

[turfsolutions]

The site looks pretty good.

[greenhobb]

I know of a company that has an organic liquid soil amendment, its called Terra Foods. The company is new, based in South Carolina. I talked to the owner of the company, they were at the trade show in the Garden State Exhibit center in January, they have cutting edge technology, and the product is loaded with bacteria. The price they had at the show, (wholesale), was about $75.00 per acre to apply. The owner was very helpful and informative, he new his stuff. I would look into the product, might be worthwhile.

[NattyLawn]

I know of a company that has an organic liquid soil amendment, its called Terra Foods. The company is new, based in South Carolina. I talked to the owner of the company, they were at the trade show in the Garden State Exhibit center in January, they have cutting edge technology, and the product is loaded with bacteria. The price they had at the show, (wholesale), was about $75.00 per acre to apply. The owner was very helpful and informative, he new his stuff. I would look into the product, might be worthwhile.


I don't know if I would trust this guy....

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/orglawn/msg0222283025123.html?5

[mattfromNY]

Getting back to you guys.... I have only used the 'burnout', as an alternative to 'roundup' and the like. It will kill weeds when they are tender and young, I found I had to really put it on pretty strong, though, and had to do multiple applications for established weeds. I only used it along my garage in my own gravel driveway to test it.
I have some of the pre-m (Corn Gluten Meal) to put down as soon as the snow melts. I am going to test this on my dad's lawn, as he has a better weed crop established than I do at my house. LOL.
As I said in my previous post, I work with a rather large (for this part of the state) dairy farm that farms over 1500 acres and milks over 300 cows, 100% organic. These guys use Fertrell and they are the ones that recommended them to me. They have only been organic since 1997, but they have tested many companies and products over the years.
MATT

[mattfromNY]

Their site is very nice... Check out the 'Notes and Quotes' section, lots of neat information to be found.

[turfsolutions]

Yes, great site, however I asked for prices 2 weeks ago and have not heard back from them yet. Still waiting.