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ed2hess
03-06-2007, 09:37 PM
The customer has an S shaped drive made out of pavers. The drive goes from his main concrete drive across the front yard and consists of two 3' wide rows separated by 3' strip of grass. We got to cross under them several times. I know I can tunnel under and put in a 2" sleeve. When I back fill around my sleeve do you think it will be enough to just flood sand back into the tunnel? Or am I going to have to force concrete back in the tunnel. Keep in mind he may drive a car across this some day. The pavers are cemented in on the edges and sand filled in center. NO way around this.

bicmudpuppy
03-06-2007, 09:56 PM
How many times do you have to cross this? Your best solution is going to involve removing a section of the pavers and trenching in your sleeve. Then backfill and re-set the pavers. IMHO, this is your only option if you do not want to destroy the integrity of the pavers.

ed2hess
03-06-2007, 10:11 PM
I will have to cross each track once at least. I guess I will have to go to paver school. It looks like the edge rows are cemented in and the center ones are just dropped in place. If I pull these things out will I have to mark each piece when I remove them?

cgland
03-06-2007, 10:15 PM
Pull the pavers up and trench for your sleeve. I would avoid concrete due to the heaving aspect. I would either contact a paver installer or try it yourself by compacting 3/4" modified stone to within 3" of paver height, trowel 1" of sand and level, install pavers and compact to finished height, sweep in sand per manufacturers recommendations. (this is a very shortened installation guide. See the ICPI website for more info and a paver installation detail.

Chris

bumper
03-06-2007, 10:29 PM
Easiest way already discussed, pull up the pavers, most likely find it very convenient to have a paving installer sub the job, you don't need the headache

bicmudpuppy
03-07-2007, 06:37 AM
If you've never done paver type work before, subbing it might be a good plan. How "perfect" is the existing work? If it has some age and has started to heave and settle some anyway, then it depends on if you want the experience or not. You are going to spend a lot more time fixing this than someone with a lot of experience, but it isn't going to cost you much to fix it besides time. I would remove enough of the pavers to ditch comfortably. Getting it back isn't going to be like a jigsaw puzzle, but filling in the pattern correctly is important. If you doubt yourself at all, number the pavers with sidewalk chalk and take a picture before removing them. Trench your pipe path. Install sleeve. I would bed the sleeve and then fill the trench with a substrate like AB3. Depending on how the existing pavers were set (this will be obvious when you remove them and make your ditch. I would stop the AB3 fill at the level of the old pavers foundation and copy what was done before. This means chat, sand, etc. Just make sure you tamp and tamp again the new bed for the pavers. Realize that when the pavers were orginally installed, the installer had an open bed to compact. That installer probably used a compactor to smooth and set the bed for the pavers.

SprinklerGuy
03-07-2007, 08:13 AM
Ditto on the subbing...

Have the h/o call the paver company that installed it.....or call him yourself if you know who it is....

Not only will you have fewer headaches...but the paver contractor will be very happy you didn't ruin his masterpiece.

Dirty Water
03-07-2007, 11:14 AM
Trust me, its a huge PITA to properly redo the base on pavers, and get them perfect again. Its totally worth subbing out.

txgrassguy
03-07-2007, 11:33 AM
I don't agree about subbing. Here in Texas we aren't subject to any of the weather relating displacement problems associated with paver installation in colder climates.
That said, I would take several establishing photos, mark the pavers then trench for the pipe.
It really isn't difficult, the photos will assist in correct replacement and you'll learn how to work with pavers.
I would definately not attempt to bore underneath the pavers as the potential undermining is a real possibility with the amount of rock common to our area of operations.

Dirty Water
03-07-2007, 11:52 AM
I don't agree about subbing. Here in Texas we aren't subject to any of the weather relating displacement problems associated with paver installation in colder climates.
That said, I would take several establishing photos, mark the pavers then trench for the pipe.
It really isn't difficult, the photos will assist in correct replacement and you'll learn how to work with pavers.
I would definately not attempt to bore underneath the pavers as the potential undermining is a real possibility with the amount of rock common to our area of operations.

This is a driveway, it needs to have a proper base.

ed2hess
03-07-2007, 08:00 PM
This is a recent install and I would classify it below average in how it looks. I am real sure that these are put on a bed of sand only and the sand probably isn't more than 2 -3 inches deep. We are sitting on rock down about 9" so that is pretty solid. The sleeve will definitely not be chiseled into the rock so the top of the sleeeve will only be about 3" below the pavers. I have read some of the paver installs but this definitely don't meet those standards. ONe new question ...the outside rows have mortar around them. Do they put some under the pavers? It looks like a row of motar along the side to keep them in place? I guess I should post in the paver forum but they will beat me up immediately and tell me to get an expert. May do that in the end but a guy has to learn sometime.

Wet_Boots
03-07-2007, 08:27 PM
Why not start by hiring the expert and watching what he does, and what equipment he uses? It can't be that much money.

TFmike
03-07-2007, 09:14 PM
If the paver job is sub-standard, I wouldn't touch it. Let the H O have his driveway guy pull and re-set the pavers, put any driveway call backs on him, if he is a pro he might already have a sleve in-under the drive.

bumper
03-07-2007, 09:25 PM
couple different ways of holding the border, mortar is one. I would still sub it, level and pattern of the pavers are paramount, you screw that up and your day gets very very long. What WB suggests, when the paver is there, pick his brain and watch what he does.

ed2hess
03-07-2007, 09:36 PM
I thinking about going ahead and put the sleeve under there without pulling them out then get the guy to reset them, is that a bad idea?

bicmudpuppy
03-07-2007, 10:00 PM
Talk to the paver guy first. If the install isn't to spec and you screw it up, he has the option of leaving you hung out to dry. And if you have to get down into rock for the sleeve, then that is what it takes. You said this was a driveway. Getting it right isn't optional, and your going to be the guy who gets the blame if you don't cover yourself on this one.

PurpHaze
03-07-2007, 10:03 PM
I am real sure that these are put on a bed of sand only and the sand probably isn't more than 2 -3 inches deep... The sleeve will definitely not be chiseled into the rock so the top of the sleeeve will only be about 3" below the pavers.

2"+3" = 5" ???

Awful shallow sleeve. And to think it will be driven over??? :)

JimLewis
03-08-2007, 02:19 AM
What about hiring a directional boring company?

We sub work out to a local dir. boring company all the time. Any time we need to bore under a driveway, really wide sidewalk, etc. we just call them and they are out the next day to bore for us. They even leave the conduit behind as they bore. So when they are done, the hole is bored and the conduit is in place.

Costs me $400 to have a 20' driveway done. That's including the 21' of 2" SCH 40 pipe they install. And I just pass that cost onto the customer. It works well for me.

Hank Reardon
03-08-2007, 09:56 AM
I'd share the responsibility by hiring the paver guy or using Jim's idea of the directional bore. Unless you are looking for work, I'd leave it to the pro's.

ed2hess
03-08-2007, 06:58 PM
What about hiring a directional boring company?

We sub work out to a local dir. boring company all the time. Any time we need to bore under a driveway, really wide sidewalk, etc. we just call them and they are out the next day to bore for us. They even leave the conduit behind as they bore. So when they are done, the hole is bored and the conduit is in place.

Costs me $400 to have a 20' driveway done. That's including the 21' of 2" SCH 40 pipe they install. And I just pass that cost onto the customer. It works well for me.

We have hired a directional bore guy....the driveway is 30' across counting the 8' pad along side the drive. The interesting new twist is the homeowner did the paver work and he said no problem he will reset after the bore. He has built some major walls all around the property and put in several sidewalks. We had a communication problem initially since he is Italian but he was able to talk to my son in spanish so now we are rolling. When we get finished I will have my son post some pictures of this place, he revamped an old house into a pretty nice darn place.

bumper
03-08-2007, 07:06 PM
Him doing the install definetly makes a huge difference on your end !!

tonytonick
03-22-2007, 08:28 AM
The customer has an S shaped drive made out of pavers. The drive goes from his main concrete drive across the front yard and consists of two 3' wide rows separated by 3' strip of grass. We got to cross under them several times. I know I can tunnel under and put in a 2" sleeve. When I back fill around my sleeve do you think it will be enough to just flood sand back into the tunnel? Or am I going to have to force concrete back in the tunnel. Keep in mind he may drive a car across this some day. The pavers are cemented in on the edges and sand filled in center. NO way around this.

Yes there is!!!!! Use a decoder system. You only need 2 18AWG wires under the slabs, no sleeve, cut them into the render between the slabs.
Try browsing this
http://www.underhill.us/Controllers.htm

tonytonick
03-22-2007, 08:35 AM
The customer has an S shaped drive made out of pavers. The drive goes from his main concrete drive across the front yard and consists of two 3' wide rows separated by 3' strip of grass. We got to cross under them several times. I know I can tunnel under and put in a 2" sleeve. When I back fill around my sleeve do you think it will be enough to just flood sand back into the tunnel? Or am I going to have to force concrete back in the tunnel. Keep in mind he may drive a car across this some day. The pavers are cemented in on the edges and sand filled in center. NO way around this.

Yes there is! Try a decoder system. You only need 2 18AWG wires which can be slotted between paving slabs. No sleeve necessary. Have a look at this site

http://www.underhill.us/Controllers.htm

bicmudpuppy
03-22-2007, 01:09 PM
Yes there is! Try a decoder system. You only need 2 18AWG wires which can be slotted between paving slabs. No sleeve necessary. Have a look at this site

http://www.underhill.us/Controllers.htm

Brilliant, simply brilliant.........and the water will just appear on the opposite side for the wires to operate?? Quit plugging for the manufactures and read the threads. If you don't have anything to actually contribute.......BUT OUT. BTW, we have some factory guys who do pop in and out with some great feedback. Most of them have sponsor spots on the site as well. Your spam is even more agravating than the artificial putting greens.

Is there some way any of us can get paid for slipping these links into our posts? It would have to pay well to stoop that low, but I bet I'm not the only one who could be bought.

tonytonick
03-22-2007, 01:47 PM
Dear bicmudpuppy,

I'm sorry I seem to have upset you. I did read the threads, but maybe the word sleeve means something different to you than it does to me this side of Atlantic. I didn't realise you guys fed the wires down the inside of the water pipe; I thought a sleeve was for wires. Nowhere in this thread did I spot a mention of where the water was coming from. Perhaps you would be kind enough to point me to the entry.

For your information, I am a factory guy. My decoder products are in over 2000 sites around the world and number over 120,000 decoders.

Over the last 10 years in this business i have designed 6 irrigation controllers.

I have helped dozens of contractors in the field to diagnose nasty irrigaation control and field wiring faults. I have written a book on faultfinding and give seminars regularly. I have offered to have published FOC on this site a load of course material to help.

Every major controller manufacturer is now promoting 2 wire. I suspect you will find decoder technology will be used extensively in the USA within 5 years. The technology is changing rapidly in the USA. There is much to learn for people who have not used decoder technology before. I want to help.

kind regards

Tony

Wet_Boots
03-22-2007, 01:50 PM
You got something there. Just replace the lawn with a putting green, and the under-driveway worries go bye-bye. Looks great next to your new Porsche (http://www.porsche.com/) you parked in the driveway.

(any resemblance to a send-me-free-product plug is entirely coincidental) :p

tonytonick
03-22-2007, 02:28 PM
If you think decoder systems are only suitable & priced for use in golf, then your information is out of date.

why are you being sarcastic?

Wet_Boots
03-22-2007, 02:41 PM
Still, the KISS principle argues against decoders in most home applications. Besides, this thread was about running water for sprinklers, under a driveway. Wire was never mentioned, until someone with a vested interest in selling product decided to do so. (in such cases, sarcasm is more than acceptable) ~ Maybe someone will stop by and tout a cycle-stop valve. :)

tonytonick
03-22-2007, 03:09 PM
Dear Wetboots,

I apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick. I didn't realise a sleeve was a pipe for water in USA-speak. "divided by a common language"

I totally agree that decoders are inappropriate for single home systems.

Not so for parks, association common areas, campuses, cemetaries, or anywhere with phased development.

Your resentment of my presence here 'with a vested interest in selling product' is difficult to understand. How do you find out about new ways of doing things? In electronic design, nobody does the hard sell, but manufacturers play an important part in educating professionals about what is on the market that might help solve the problems they face. As I said before, I'm trying to help, not be a nuisance. Sorry if I have offended you

Regards

Tony

Dirty Water
03-22-2007, 03:11 PM
Its ok Tony, Up here we a sleeve is the term used for any pipe that will have another pipe or wire (or both) ran inside of it.

There is a member here who repeatedly spams us with information about artificial turf putting greens. Something we as irrigation guys dislike as it is.

Just don't become that guy and we can all be friends. Btw, any posts advertising a product get deleted on here unless you sign up as a paying sponsor for the site.

Wet_Boots
03-22-2007, 03:28 PM
How do you find out about new ways of doing things?From third parties, at least on forums like these, paid advertisers notwithstanding. (and we can hardly stand 'em as it is) ~ part of the value of information posted here and on other forums, is that it comes from people with nothing to gain from their advice being taken.

Mike Leary
03-22-2007, 03:38 PM
Jeez Jon, I was going to hire the guy so Russ didn't have to trench for
mainline anymore.

tonytonick
03-23-2007, 06:58 AM
Thanks Jon, I apreciate your explanation of sleeves. Over here, wires are in 'Conduit'.

Yes, the last thing I want to do is make a nuisance of myself. Two things I would respectfully like to point out.

(1) There is a 'seismic shift' in technology going on, with 2 wire decoders increasingly replacing multi-wire in all but the smallest projects. All the major irrigaton controller manufacturers are offering such products. The prinicples and practice of using a decoder system are different from multi-wire, so promulgation of this generic information is why I am here.

(2) Yes, I am a manufacturer and have a vested interest....but I am also an educator. I am a committe member and past Chairman of the British Turf & Landscape Irrigation Association (BTLIA) and am a lecturer with them in electrics and irrigation control principles. BTLIA, a minature version of your IA, is made up of contractors, irrigation design consultants and many of the big names in manufacturing. We all compete against each other, but leave that behind with the BTLIA hat on. Education in relevent aspects of agronomy and irrigation is the primary function of the BTLIA

With this non partisan hat on, I wish to interact with this forum. If members have questions or problems they with to discuss, I am happy, to the best of my ability to help.

Thank you again

Tony

PurpHaze
03-23-2007, 08:16 AM
Thanks Jon, I apreciate your explanation of sleeves. Over here, wires are in 'Conduit'.

Tony... Over here you will also find differences in word usage between regions. For example, in my area we'll use "conduit" (usually gray Carlon-type PVC piping or metallic) where the wire is wholly and continuously contained for a run. We'll use "sleeve" or "chase" indicating a pipe (could be a variety of types) laid under hardscapes such as walks, drives, streets, etc. that carry something else in them (wire or other pipe) in order to protect them from the crushing effect of weight above or as a manner to pull/push and/or install/repair what's being sleeved without disturbing that hardscape. In most commercial/industrial applications direct burial irrigation wire is usually run with the main line for digging protection but will then be sleeved under hardscape and rejoin the main line (after exiting the sleeve) on the other side with direct burial practices again.

tonytonick
03-23-2007, 10:32 AM
Thanks PurpHaze, most illuminating.

No wonder you and others were shocked at me commenting on this thread, I thought you were just talking about wires only! I would not have said anything if I'd known.

Anyway, if there is anything you or your collegues want to know (in general) about 2 wire, decoders, faultfinding shorts, opens, lightning or other things electrical, I would be delighted to help all I can.

Regards

Tony

bicmudpuppy
03-23-2007, 02:27 PM
Thanks PurpHaze, most illuminating.

No wonder you and others were shocked at me commenting on this thread, I thought you were just talking about wires only! I would not have said anything if I'd known.

Anyway, if there is anything you or your collegues want to know (in general) about 2 wire, decoders, faultfinding shorts, opens, lightning or other things electrical, I would be delighted to help all I can.

Regards

Tony

Ok, I flammed you and considering the explanation, I will first appologize and then ask a question that probably deserves a new thread. I have seen a lot of talk about 2-wire, and I am intrigued by the crossover technology. One question........is one of the two wires still a common? and the other a comm wire? or is the two wire path totally independent?

tonytonick
03-26-2007, 10:38 AM
Ok, I flammed you and considering the explanation, I will first appologize and then ask a question that probably deserves a new thread. I have seen a lot of talk about 2-wire, and I am intrigued by the crossover technology. One question........is one of the two wires still a common? and the other a comm wire? or is the two wire path totally independent?

Dear Bicmudpuppy (love the name!). A good old muddle eh? But don't hesistate to tick me off again if I don't understand the lingo. "No spik inglis"!

I'm going to try and leave this thread and move over the the 2 wire one, but here is an answer to your question.

In a decoder system, the decoder is usually between both the 2 wires and the solenoid. There is one system, Heron, where the common is still a common, but usually not.

To try and read through your question, I wonder if you are thinking about how to convert an existing multi-wire to decoder?

This would be useful if you wanted to try out decoders, but have the multi-wire ready in case of a change of mind. I can tell you how to do this if you want.

The more usual scenario is when more zones have to be added, but there is no more cable back to the controller. In this case, two existing hot wires are hijacked, a decoder adaptor fitted to the controller and connected to these hijacked wires, two decoders added at the valves that have lost their hot wires, and those hots extended with more decoders to add the zones. In this circumstance the old commons to the 2 solenoids are disconnected and stubbed to keep continuity. It is not usual in this hybrid system to use the existing common as one of the wires in the 2 wire path.

If this sounds horribly confusing, I've got some PDF diagrams. picture is worth 1000 words!

I'll add some more comments to other queries in the 2 wire thread.

Hope this helps

Regards

Tony