PDA

View Full Version : workers comp


corey4671
03-07-2007, 11:24 PM
looking for advice here. I am solo. never had employees. don't even have helpers. I am just a solo kind of guy. I work by myself. there is a commercial property up for bids here and one of the requirements is workers comp. if I don't have employees, why do I need to carry WC? I have liability for obvious reasons. Is it even worth going out to get WC for this ONE property?

nick-bigfootlawn
03-07-2007, 11:54 PM
Get it anyway, here in Ohio, if you don't have employees, or very few it's $20 per year.

sam c
03-08-2007, 08:40 PM
Ask your ins. agent about an "if any" policy, that whats they call it around here anyway. It's basically a policy you don't use, and you get back a good part of the premium. If you do claim any employees, you pay on a % of payroll. Thats what I have done. Good Luck

Tahoe1889
03-09-2007, 12:54 AM
In the great State of NJ its $1000 and I can't collect on it. If I wanna collect its Triple or More. But it should be hard to asked your agent what it will cost you

landscapingpoolguy
03-10-2007, 10:53 AM
My workmans comp was almost $3500 just for me

corey4671
03-10-2007, 09:53 PM
Bump...anybody else wanna chime in? Don't be shy. I don't bite! Just looking for opinions here and HOPEFULLY some facts. Thanks for the posts so far guys. Don't stop now!

rodfather
03-11-2007, 09:52 AM
My workmans comp was almost $3500 just for me

How in the hell can that be? You are getting ripped off. I paid roughly that much for all my employees last year.

Tahoe1889
03-11-2007, 08:43 PM
How in the hell can that be? You are getting ripped off. I paid roughly that much for all my employees last year.

He must be able to collect on it if he gets hurt. Thats how much I was quoted with only $25K payroll. So I elected to not be able to collect on the policy. It's just there for looks. I have learned though if you have had workmans comp for a couple of years shop around for a new quote the rate will go down.

bigjeeping
03-13-2007, 06:32 AM
I was just shopping around for cheaper rates.. the cheapest I could find was $5.70 per $100. Anybody cheaper????

rodfather
03-13-2007, 08:44 AM
We pay $4.29 per $100

mattfromNY
03-13-2007, 09:02 AM
Holy Sh!.... $3700.00/ yr. for myself and a 'potential' employee with 5k payroll in NY!!! I wish I could be covered for 1k/ yr.
I had the same situation, one apt. complex requires it b/c the new senior mgr. is also an attorney, they need to cover their arse. I made it clear that my bidding would reflect my higher cost of carrying the insurance, they were fine, I bid, I got the bid, we are all happy.

mattfromNY
03-13-2007, 09:05 AM
Rod,
In NY, there are different rates for different job categories. If 'landscapingpoolguy' is doing stuff with pools, that may change his rates?!?? I know my rates would be different if I was doing roofing, or tree work. I pay a differential based on how many months per yr. I plow snow, too.
????????
Matt

landscapingpoolguy
03-13-2007, 09:11 AM
I know I have extra coverage cause I do excavating below 3ft. Also im th eonly listed employee for my company. Isnt the workmans comp run by thye state in NJ? Evryone should relatively be the same.

TJLANDS
03-13-2007, 09:21 AM
Yes the rates are set by the state. Everybody in NJ pays the same.
Lawn maintenance is cheaper than Landscaping.

rodfather
03-13-2007, 09:26 AM
[QUOTE=mattfromNY;1748235]Rod,
In NY, there are different rates for different job categories. If 'landscapingpoolguy' is doing stuff with pools, that may change his rates?!?? [QUOTE]

Exactly Matt

First of all, I use an insurance broker for all my insurance needs. He represents many insurance companies vs. an agent who represents usually just one. Since the majority of my work (72%) is mowing, I fall under the category of mowing instead of landscaping. BTW, the rate for landscaping vs. mowing here in NJ is 3X more.

Also, since my guy is a broker (in PA no less), he can continually look around for the best rates for me. Ironically enough, I have separate insurance policies and companies with my GC, Vehicle, and WC.

It pays to shop around, that I can tell you...

bigjeeping
03-13-2007, 02:53 PM
Rod Father.. does your broker for workers comp insure out of state? Like I said I'm shopping around and found $5.70... $4.29 is sounding so much better!
I think I'll shop a little longer. P.S. I am majorly lawn mowing.

rodfather
03-13-2007, 04:01 PM
Rod Father.. does your broker for workers comp insure out of state? Like I said I'm shopping around and found $5.70... $4.29 is sounding so much better!
I think I'll shop a little longer. P.S. I am majorly lawn mowing.


NJ and PA only, sorry

VBsnow
03-19-2007, 12:26 PM
To answer your question: If the people you work for require you to have insurance, then you have to have it. If they have insurance and hire you they are responsible for your injuries. Many times the "foreman"(you) is charged but the coverage will not cover them. It is a big risk to hire uninsured subs.

As for the "if any" policy. Some states allow the owner to exclude themself from coverage. If there is no other employee payroll you pay the minimum premium. In VA, it is 750. No one is covered by it. It just gets you on the job.

To all of those who compare your rates from state to state; it doesn't work. Your wasting your time. Yes, the guy in NJ is paying way too much. However, you all do not know what his experience modification is. He may have claim issues. If this is not the case, yes, your getting ripped.

corey4671
03-19-2007, 10:18 PM
As for the "if any" policy. Some states allow the owner to exclude themself from coverage. If there is no other employee payroll you pay the minimum premium. In VA, it is 750. No one is covered by it. It just gets you on the job.

see i just think that is a pile of horse$hit!if no one benefits from it, what purpose does it serve?

VBsnow
03-20-2007, 09:51 AM
It should be noted that "Rodfather" is a good model of what to do. Especially in NJ and NY area. You are your own world as far as insurance goes. However, the rates being set by the state thing I do not think is true. You do have assigned risk work comp rates that are done via several groups and your work comp commision is part of this process. There are very few states that are monopolistic(5 actually). Listen to Rodfather and find a trustworthy independent to shop this stuff for you. $4.29 per hundred is a good rate for landscaping but not for lawn mtc. AGAIN, YOU ALL CANNOT COMPARE RATES ACROSS STATE LINES. YOU CAN BUY IT OUT OF STATE BUT THE RATES FILED IN YOUR STATE BY THE CO STILL APPLY.

To the guy who said it was Horse****, what are you talking about? Ask an injured employee who is suing you who it served. That should be a great conversation. The first thing people who do say they do not NEED ins say is that they know the person or some other dumb comment. I assure you money changes people real quick.

VBsnow
03-20-2007, 09:58 AM
see i just think that is a pile of horse$hit!if no one benefits from it, what purpose does it serve?

OK, I figured out what your talking about(by actually reading:hammerhead: )

Your right, it is dumb. However, it does provide those who do not have the money an avenue to begin. Most people who elect to buy this type of policy are lying though. The majority have employees they are hiding. The companies have been getting better about catching them.

Important note: Since you all took the time to read this; try not to be that guy. LCO's rates are cvery low compared to other types of contractors. Those who constantly try to beat the system usually end up beat. Whether it taxes or insurance, one end of the beast gets em'. Learn the system and beat it that way.

To the guy who was asking about the different classes: they assign a 4 digit code to each class. Your agent has a book called a "Scopes manual." Ask for a copy of your class description to see if your classified correctly. You should only fit into 2 if your at this site. I hope it is obvious why roofers pay more for WC than LCO's.

VBsnow
03-20-2007, 12:59 PM
Corey, I never answerd your question. If it is worth it or not is up to you. Wanna' work bigger jobs and you will have to have it. Whether it is covering anybody or not. You could always choose not to work for those who require they be protected from your companie' injured employees.

For everyone: I spoke of the NCCI manual earlier. I have a list of states that have listed themselves as not being in the jurisdiction of the manual:
CA, Dela, Mass, Mich, NJ, NY, PA, Tex.

Now these are the MONOPOLISTIC STATES(state controls the WC program):
ND, Ohio, Wash St., WV, and Wyom.

I have heard that WV may becoming a competive rate state but I have nothing on paper.

If you live in one of these states you are on a different system than the rest of the country. Even if your state is not listed, your state will still have a say on what rates are to be used. They control how the companies file their rates. This is done through your insurance commisioner's office. Thus, the same company will have a different rate for every state. If you find two states that match w/ the same rate it is a coincidence.

TJLANDS
03-20-2007, 01:25 PM
The State determines WC rates

New Jersey From the Nj state Website
Who determines the workers’ compensation insurance rates for employers?

The Compensation Rating & Inspection Bureau of the Department of Banking & Insurance is responsible for rate setting matters for workers’ compensation. They can be reached by calling (973) 622-6014 or by visiting their web-site at www.njcrib.com.



NJCRIB RATE/CLASSIFICATIONS INFORMATION

Effective Date: January 1, 2007


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page of 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Code XREF Rate Min Prem Excess Element Table H
9102 $4.29 $629 $3.45 II


01 LAWN MAINTENANCE - COMMERCIAL OR DOMESTIC & D
INCLUDES GRASS CUTTING, WEED CONTROL AND LAWN SPRAYING. THIS
CLASSIFICATION DOES NOT APPLY TO A RISK WHOSE PRINCIPAL
BUSINESS IS TREE PRUNING, TREE SPRAYING OR EXTERMINATING.
LANDSCAPING TO BE SEPARATELY RATED AS 0042.

Rate
0042 $9.43 $850 $8.21 II
00 LANDSCAPE GARDENING & D
INCLUDES LAYING OUT OF GROUNDS, PLANTING TREES, SHRUBS,
FLOWERS OR LAWNS. EXCAVATION, FILLING OR BACK FILLING TO
BE SEPARATELY RATED AS 6217,EXCAVATION-NOC. LAWN MAINTENANCE
TO BE SEPARATELY RATED AS 9102.

01 LANDSCAPE EROSION CONTROL & D
APPLIES TO SEEDING, SODDING OR PLANTING SHRUBS OR TREES ALONG
ROAD RIGHT-OF-WAY AND INCIDENTAL FINE GRADING. SUCH OPERATIONS
PERFORMED IN CONNECTION WITH STREET OR ROAD CONSTRUCTION
PROJECTS TO BE RATED AS 6042.

VBsnow
03-20-2007, 01:56 PM
Nicely done TJ. The codes he listed for you all are the national codes. 0042 is LANDSCAPING and 9102 is your regular "mow and blow" operations. Wow-NJ is high! VA averages 3.00 for the mow and blows, usually less. I just quoted a mid size landscaper at 5.00. Varies by "risk" but these are mediums here.

Again, good work TJ. Educated clients are the best clients!

GARRETTWOOD
03-20-2007, 04:11 PM
We pay % based on payroll amount that we pay out . About $ 2200.00 year just for workers. I don't cover myself would be about $ 3000.00 because I'am the owner.

VBsnow
03-20-2007, 05:34 PM
Here is how it would work then: One number we are missing is the EXPENSE CONSTANT. This is added to most policies and I assume PA has one as well. It is usually somewhere between 160.00 and 240.00. For this we will say it is 200.00(unless you guys tell me what it is. You add the EC to your total.

If you are mow and blow your rate in PA is 4.29(per TJ)

1000.00(payroll) divided by 100.00= 10 X 4.29(rate)=$42.99 per thousand.

So if you have $50,000 of payroll, it woule be 50,000 divided by 100= 500 X
4.29(rate)=2145.00 + Expense Constant(apx. $200)= TOTAL $2345.00

As you grow you get deductions for policy size and loss free history. We use an experience mod for this.

.89 MOD means 11% reduction in overall rate total, so the above example w/ a .89 MOD would now be:

2145.00 - 190.905=1954.095 + (apx. 200)Expense Constant=2154.00(R)

If you have claims, the mod works in reverse. So a 1.10 would be a debit of 10%. It can actually get much higher than 100% debit but that is enough math today.

Hope this helped. Thanks for the #'s TJ.

VBsnow

VBsnow
03-20-2007, 07:55 PM
Guys,

I was driving home and realized I made a mathmatical error. Before I confuse the hell out of everybody, the math on the experience mod is wrong!

.89 equals an 11% reduction. 11% of 2145.00 is 235.95. So the true example with the deduction of MOD would be: 2145 -(MOD) $235.95=1909.05+ (EC)200.00= 2109.05

I left off the .04 % charge for terrorism becaus eit does not add up to diddly.

HOWEVER!

In Va and Nc you must have a combined premium of 7K every two years to qualify for the EXP MOD. The formula I posted is correct. That is what I was trying to show some of you how to do. Sorry bout' the F.U.

One more time: GROSS PAYROLL divided by 100, then multiply by rate and add expense constant. If big enough use deductions/debits for mod and premium size discount.

Terrorism: Divide payroll by 100 and multipy by .04

Overtime(here): just use straight time. The "half" from time and half is usually not used.

OWNERS! Do not include officer or owner payroll! This is done seperately. Varies by state. In VA, Officers=26,300, Sole Props=15,600. These are the max payroll charges. Divide by 100 and multiply by rate for worst case cost scenario.

Any questions? Post em'.

Again, sorry for the poor math.

corey4671
03-20-2007, 10:09 PM
I appreciate all the effort that has been put forth here. however, it just still chaps my butt that I DO NOT HAVE NOR WILL I EVER HAVE EMPLOYEES and I have to pay for this stupid insurance! at one time, insurance was there to actually HELP YOU! Seems these days it has turned into any other type of business out to make an easy dollar. Necessary evil I guess

VBsnow
03-21-2007, 09:23 AM
I tell my customers that: "you gotta buy it and I gotta sell it. Let's make the best of it and get past it."

Good luck with it.

salandscape
03-22-2007, 12:25 PM
Kind of off topic but i found a good way to buy the ins. is through your payroll company. This way it is calcuated each week and deducted from your accounts with the payroll. If I didn't do it this way I would be putting down somewhere between 35-50% of my policy at once them paying the rest in installments at a high interest rate. Also by doing it this way it is not an estimated rate but an actual one, so there is less chance of having to owe money at a year end audit.

VBsnow
03-22-2007, 01:12 PM
Your paying through Paychex. All of these programs go through them in one way or another. You could do this yourself with the formula I provided in this link. That way the money is in YOUR bank account gaining interest instead of THEIRS.

Also, when their "agent" takes over your account; who will help you? The worst thing is this "agent" will not shop your insurance year to year either. The majority of these accounts go through The Hartford. The Hartford is not very competitive in your field. They do have a special program for Tree companies, but you need to be larger to benefit.