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tacoma200
03-12-2007, 07:20 PM
My Briggs calls for sae 30 wt with a sf sg sh sj or higher api rating. All I could find at the parts store is api service sl (Pennsoil or Castrol). Is sl a higher rating than the previous oils I've mentioned? I don't want to void a warranty.

In other words is SL ok to us?

Scagguy
03-12-2007, 07:24 PM
My understanding is sl is a higher rating, you should be ok. I use Castrol 30w in all of my equipment (Kawis And B&S) and have never had any problems with it.

Envy Lawn Service
03-13-2007, 04:27 AM
Yeah, the SL is on up the line, newer...

I still don't know why they still recommend SAE30 though.
I wouldn't run that this time of year if I were you.

Pour some in a can and leave it outside all night.
You'll see what it's like in the morning.

Break it in on some 10w30 or 15w40 instead.

Richard Martin
03-13-2007, 06:03 AM
SL is fine. SL is the latest oil. I can't believe they are still specifying SF. SF, SG and SH are not even available any more. SH and SL are the only 2 currently available catagories of oil. It sounds like the only thing that has changed on Briggs engines since the 80s is the carbs.

tacoma200
03-13-2007, 09:32 AM
Thanks for the info. I just always try to go by the engine manufacturers recommendations. Above 40 degrees it recommends sae 30 regular oil or synthetic multi-viscosity oil. I though Kawasaki also recommends 30 wt in some of their engines. I don't think I'll use the synthetic while it's breaking in anyway.
Thanks for the info.

Envy Lawn Service
03-14-2007, 02:07 AM
Thanks for the info. I just always try to go by the engine manufacturers recommendations. Above 40 degrees it recommends sae 30 regular oil or synthetic multi-viscosity oil. I though Kawasaki also recommends 30 wt in some of their engines. I don't think I'll use the synthetic while it's breaking in anyway.
Thanks for the info.

You're welcome...

And I didn't mean to sound 'gruff' there about the SAE 30.

It's just that I, many others, and many MFG's have abandoned SAE30 decades ago.
I don't understand why some small engine MFG's hang on to it.

There is no PROVEN benefit to running SAE30.
It contains no more base oil or anything else.
In fact, most of it trails the quality of multi-vis pretty badly.

Understand that really nobody who "is anybody" recommends using SAE30 in their engines anymore. So there is no external pressure to meet increasing specification demands so they can label their oils "______" certified for use in "______" engines. Not like the multi-vis oils for gas and diesel are.

Next time you are in a store, pick up any bottle brand name 15w40 to see what I mean.

MowerMedic77
03-14-2007, 08:54 PM
It's just that I, many others, and many MFG's have abandoned SAE30 decades ago.
I don't understand why some small engine MFG's hang on to it.

There is no PROVEN benefit to running SAE30.
It contains no more base oil or anything else.
In fact, most of it trails the quality of multi-vis pretty badly.

Understand that really nobody who "is anybody" recommends using SAE30 in their engines anymore.

Really :confused: Here is Kawasaki's recommendation, make sure to read the note about increased oil consumption when using multi weight oils.
75750

Envy Lawn Service
03-14-2007, 11:31 PM
Really :confused: Here is Kawasaki's recommendation, make sure to read the note about increased oil consumption when using multi weight oils.
75750

Yeah it says...

Some oil consumption MAY be expected when using multi-vis oils.

Check oil more frequently than recommended interval.

********************************************

In other words they are saying that over a 100 hour period, you can expect some oil consumption with A/C engines. Don't wait 100 hours before you check your oil level.

********************************************

There IS NO BENEFIT FROM USING SAE30!

This is a dead horse already

If you think SAE30 is soooo superior... put your facts where your fingers are.
Any of you...

In other words PROVE IT!

Show me a data sheet on your favorite brand of dino SAE30.
I will show you a spec sheet from that same MFG that shows performance eclipsing the SAE30.
I haven't looked at any of them in years, but I can still almost guarantee it.

This is not 1970, and your mower is not your dad's pinto.

MowerMedic77
03-15-2007, 06:45 PM
Data sheet's I don't have but I have torn down plenty of A/C engines that run commercially here in S.FLA using mulit-weight oil. I have seen what running the wrong oil does to a motor. You know what, use what ever oil makes you happy :) the most important thing is to follow your engine manufactures recommendations and service intervals. (they built it why would they know what oil to put in it:confused: )

tomo
03-16-2007, 06:53 AM
hello , using a low spec oil is generally 4 running in a new engine where u do not want all the additives 4 engine protection [detergents etc] . Particularly where the rings r concerned .Bedding in is top priority . Around 100 hrs running in is a good average figure although upto 300 hrs is not uncommon .

As every body has stated multi vis may lead to consumption although probaly only slight .
All later letters superseed the one prior eg SM now is the better version of SL etc.
Use appropiate viscosity 4 your temp although the average would be 10/30 ,10/40, 15/40 or some even use 5/30 ,5/40 ,5/50.

tomo:waving: :waving:

J and D Lawn Care
03-16-2007, 02:06 PM
I am hesitant to get involved in this conversation, but since I spent my last 22 years working for one of the major oil companies I do have some experience with this.

If you are going to use a multivis oil i.e. 10W30 I would highly recommend you use a good synthetic, not a conventional oil. Multivis oils have what's known as VI improvers in them that shear over time. There is nothing harder on oil than the beating lawn care equipment gives. They run hot all day long. A straight 30W oil does not have these VI improvers and it does not shear out of grade. If I were going to use a conventional multivis oil it would be a 15W40.

I'm now retired from the oil business and enjoy my small lawn care business now. I lived in Texas for 40 years and I have lived in Wisconsin for the past 18 years, and I still use 30W oil in my Briggs engines. The only thing I run a multivis oil in is my snowblower and that's a 5W30 synthetic. For all of you in FL and TX, it looks like a big garden tiller that throws dirt.:)

Envy Lawn Service
03-16-2007, 10:34 PM
I am hesitant to get involved in this conversation, but since I spent my last 22 years working for one of the major oil companies I do have some experience with this.

If you are going to use a multivis oil i.e. 10W30 I would highly recommend you use a good synthetic, not a conventional oil. Multivis oils have what's known as VI improvers in them that shear over time. There is nothing harder on oil than the beating lawn care equipment gives. They run hot all day long. A straight 30W oil does not have these VI improvers and it does not shear out of grade. If I were going to use a conventional multivis oil it would be a 15W40.

I'm now retired from the oil business and enjoy my small lawn care business now. I lived in Texas for 40 years and I have lived in Wisconsin for the past 18 years, and I still use 30W oil in my Briggs engines. The only thing I run a multivis oil in is my snowblower and that's a 5W30 synthetic. For all of you in FL and TX, it looks like a big garden tiller that throws dirt.:)

You bring up good attitude and points for discussion.

I give good marks for conventional 15w40.
The stuff of today is very good... like Chevron, Mobil, Shell, etc.

I used to run it in everything.
Little more base oil than SAE30 or 10w30 without having to use 20w50.
Very good quality base and add-pack for hard working applications.
I only started to venture away from it in hopes of gaining better fuel economy.

But speaking of bases... that's what I'm getting at. SAE30 and 10w30 from the same MFG tend to be of the same base number, and often the 10w30 will be of a higher quality base stock at the same number... and the multi-vis oils will often have a higher TBN as well... better add-pack.

Both SAE30 and 10w30 have to pass the same SAE viscosity test...
This viscosity @ 100 degrees C (212 F) is between the minimum of 9.3 cSt and a maximum of 12.5 cSt.

Both SAE30 and 10w30 contain additive packs to the base oil.
It's the add-packs that are different... and therefore make the oil different.

The 10w30 add-pack contains a Viscosity Index Improver package.
This package allows for the oil to pass viscosity tests for winter rating...
The "W" in 10w30.

The SAE 30 does not contain these specific polymers.
Therefore, SAE 30 is NOT winter rated... or as most people say... multi-grade or multi-viscosity.

As a result, SAE 30 ends up with a sub-par Viscosity Index.

Ironically, the Viscosity Index is a rating attached to oil based on it's performance across a temperature range. Specifically, how much the actual viscosity of the oil CHANGED across the temperature range.

Oils with a low Viscosity Index, such as SAE 30 (typically 100 or just over) have a wide inconsistancy/change in viscosity depending on temperature. This means (as we like to say) the oil gets much thicker than 30 when cold, and much thinner than 30 when hot.

Simply put, if you are running an acceptable viscosity oil to begin with...
The Viscosity Index is the part of the oil your bearings and tight clearances will love you for. The higher the VI index, the less the viscosity will change with temperature. 10w30 is thin enough to get there at lower temperatures and has the support to not thin down too much when hot and continue to protect.

So... you can think of it like this:
A 10W30 oil is a 10-weight oil that will not thin more than a 30-weight oil when it gets hot. The polymers in the add-pack coil and uncoil in relation to temperature... keeping the oil from getting too thick when cold, and keeping the oil from getting too thin when hot.


Just to show... here is a comparison of data from a 'nothing special' 10w30 and a pretty darn good SAE 30 from Quaker State.

SPEC...........10w30.............SAE30

API................. 30.1 .............. 27.7
Flash.............. 410 F ............. 425 F
Fire................ 440 F ............. 460 F
Pour............... -22 F ................. 0 F
Viscosity
@ 40 C............. 69.1 .............. 94.2 ......... (@ 104 F)
@ 100 C........... 10.5 ............... 11.0 .......... (@ 212 F)

Visosity Index.... 139 ................ 101


As you can see, the specs are laid out for liquid cooled car engines and such.
But you can tell that the 10w30 keeps pace with it.
Plus you can tell it has a significantly better viscosity index.

Look at the viscosity at 104 F and 212 F.

The SAE 30 is a 94.2 @ 104 F....... 36% thicker

Now look at 212 F..... basically the same viscosity.

Heat the 10w30 +108 more degrees = drops 58.6 in viscosity
Heat the SAE30 +108 more degrees = drops 83.2 in viscosity

A difference of 40% in the rate of viscosity change between the temps of 104 F and 212 F

Now, granted, this SAE30 has a very good flash point and fire point.
(Temps 400 F and above are considered good)

But now... lets just take a minute to think about something.
Lets make an assumption...

Add another +108 degrees to the oil temp.
I'd say that gets us into the range our A/C mower engine oil temps run???

Now... based on the above... how do you reckon the two would look at 320 F?

I would assume the SAE30 would be awfully thin by then... wouldn't you?

I sure remember the SAE30 draining like water at oil changes when I used it.
Goes in like syrup... comes out like black water.

J and D Lawn Care
03-16-2007, 11:42 PM
In theory you are correct, but as you state, these test are performed for automotive applications. The VI improvers, polymers as you stated expand as the oil gets hot so the oil will act like a 30W at 100C. One of the problems is that these polymers are prone to shearing, sometimes at an alarming rate depending on the additive package. Now considering we are talking about A/C applications lets just look at one small engine for a moment, the Briggs 6 H.P. It holds what, 20 oz. of oil. If you subject a conventional 10W30 (20 oz.) to that type of temperature under that type of stress for a long period of time, the polymers will shear down drastically and what you will wind up with is 20 oz. of something between a 10W15 and a 10W20. Not enough protection for a hot summer day or 320F. At anything above 290F conventional multi-vis oil takes a major nose dive.

They use the high VI index base in the multi-vis oils because they know they are going to shear some in automotive applications.

So I will stick with my original post in stating if one wants to run 10W30 your better off using a top end synthetic that can stand the heat or use a conventional HD 15W40.

But to each there own as they say. There are as many different opinions about what weight oil to use as there is to what brand of oil is best to use. I will stick with what has worked with me for over 40 years. Just to give you an example, and this is not being used for commercial use, but for my home use. I have a John Deere edger which I believe was made my McLane that I purchased new in 1974. It has the original Briggs engine and all I have ever done to it is change the spark plug, air filter, and oil every year using SAE30. I cannot count the belts and blades I have gone through in the past 33 years, but the darn little thing just keeps on running. I personally do not think that could have happened if I were using SAE 10W30, but then I guess I will never know.

Envy Lawn Service
03-17-2007, 12:57 AM
In theory you are correct, but as you state, these test are performed for automotive applications. The VI improvers, polymers as you stated expand as the oil gets hot so the oil will act like a 30W at 100C. One of the problems is that these polymers are prone to shearing, sometimes at an alarming rate depending on the additive package. Now considering we are talking about A/C applications lets just look at one small engine for a moment, the Briggs 6 H.P. It holds what, 20 oz. of oil. If you subject a conventional 10W30 (20 oz.) to that type of temperature under that type of stress for a long period of time, the polymers will shear down drastically and what you will wind up with is 20 oz. of something between a 10W15 and a 10W20. Not enough protection for a hot summer day or 320F. At anything above 290F conventional multi-vis oil takes a major nose dive.

They use the high VI index base in the multi-vis oils because they know they are going to shear some in automotive applications.

So I will stick with my original post in stating if one wants to run 10W30 your better off using a top end synthetic that can stand the heat or use a conventional HD 15W40.

But to each there own as they say. There are as many different opinions about what weight oil to use as there is to what brand of oil is best to use. I will stick with what has worked with me for over 40 years. Just to give you an example, and this is not being used for commercial use, but for my home use. I have a John Deere edger which I believe was made my McLane that I purchased new in 1974. It has the original Briggs engine and all I have ever done to it is change the spark plug, air filter, and oil every year using SAE30. I cannot count the belts and blades I have gone through in the past 33 years, but the darn little thing just keeps on running. I personally do not think that could have happened if I were using SAE 10W30, but then I guess I will never know.

Well, I cannot disagree with you in the 10w30 / 15w40 comparison.
The 15w40 is a better, tougher oil.
More base oil and typically high TBN add-packs (a must for diesels)

But when it comes to 10w30/SAE30 I can't agree with you.

The thing no one seems to understand is this....

Everyone is sooo hung up on the word 'weight' so we will use that and make it simple.

Almost all dino oils with a rating of 30, regardless of rather it is a winter oil or not...

Typically, they contain a base petrolem oil of 7 to 10.
That means 10w30 and SAE30.

So no, SAE30 is not a 30 base or 30 weight in that sense.

Both are basically a 10.
Both have additives.
10w30 has the viscosity improvers.
SAE30 does not.

That's the difference.

This is precisely why the SAE30 thins so much more than 10w30 from 104 F to 212 F.
The SAE 30 does not have any viscosity improvers to support it... so it thins more rapidly.

10w30 has a greater ability to "stay in grade" than SAE 30 without having to be thick when cold.
The difference is in the add-pack.

Yes, it is true that the VI improvers can cause trouble.
The polymers can wear out where they don't coil and uncoil.
They can also shear down to the point of breaking, making them less effective.
In addition they can wear down to the point of flashing off.

Cheap oil makers gave them a bad name by using low end additives in their oils.
In the end, they didn't say in grade and consumption could be noticed.

Oils like Dino 10w40 are more prone also because they contain a lot of these polymers.

But the fact of the matter is, things have advanced a long way in this area with multi-grade oils... in every part of their makeup (by demand). Single grade oils have gone nowhere and are on their way out.

In the end though, when speaking about VI improvers, it is better to have them and loose them than to never have them at all. You don't have to worry on the cold spring and fall mornings, and you don't have to worry when it's 95 degrees.

I work in an area where the majority of my days are spent working in temps over 80 degrees... and lots of those are in the 90's. Back when I ran SAE 30 when I drained at 25-50 hours my oil was the viscosity of water. Now with multi-grade oils such as 10w30 and 15w40, it comes out like it goes in viscosity wise... just dirtier. I typically make it a point to even run the engine a few minutes to make it drain faster.....

I've never had any issue with consumption. Yes, I can see a slight difference on the stick v/s SAE 30, but never enough between changes to need to add make-up oil. These days my engines are lasting a lot-lot longer.

lucforce
03-17-2007, 01:42 AM
Envy, in response to your argument:

How do you explain the manufacturers recommending sae30 for higher temp applications?

J and D Lawn Care
03-17-2007, 01:52 AM
Well, I cannot disagree with you in the 10w30 / 15w40 comparison.
The 15w40 is a better, tougher oil.
More base oil and typically high TBN add-packs (a must for diesels)

But when it comes to 10w30/SAE30 I can't agree with you.

The thing no one seems to understand is this....

Everyone is sooo hung up on the word 'weight' so we will use that and make it simple.

Almost all dino oils with a rating of 30, regardless of rather it is a winter oil or not...

Typically, they contain a base petrolem oil of 7 to 10.
That means 10w30 and SAE30.

So no, SAE30 is not a 30 base or 30 weight in that sense.

Both are basically a 10.
Both have additives.
10w30 has the viscosity improvers.
SAE30 does not.

That's the difference.

This is precisely why the SAE30 thins so much more than 10w30 from 104 F to 212 F.
The SAE 30 does not have any viscosity improvers to support it... so it thins more rapidly.

10w30 has a greater ability to "stay in grade" than SAE 30 without having to be thick when cold.
The difference is in the add-pack.

Yes, it is true that the VI improvers can cause trouble.
The polymers can wear out where they don't coil and uncoil.
They can also shear down to the point of breaking, making them less effective.
In addition they can wear down to the point of flashing off.

Cheap oil makers gave them a bad name by using low end additives in their oils.
In the end, they didn't say in grade and consumption could be noticed.

Oils like Dino 10w40 are more prone also because they contain a lot of these polymers.

But the fact of the matter is, things have advanced a long way in this area with multi-grade oils... in every part of their makeup (by demand). Single grade oils have gone nowhere and are on their way out.

In the end though, when speaking about VI improvers, it is better to have them and loose them than to never have them at all. You don't have to worry on the cold spring and fall mornings, and you don't have to worry when it's 95 degrees.

I work in an area where the majority of my days are spent working in temps over 80 degrees... and lots of those are in the 90's. Back when I ran SAE 30 when I drained at 25-50 hours my oil was the viscosity of water. Now with multi-grade oils such as 10w30 and 15w40, it comes out like it goes in viscosity wise... just dirtier. I typically make it a point to even run the engine a few minutes to make it drain faster.....

I've never had any issue with consumption. Yes, I can see a slight difference on the stick v/s SAE 30, but never enough between changes to need to add make-up oil. These days my engines are lasting a lot-lot longer.

Things have advanced in PCMO and in automotive engines. But a Briggs 6.5 is a Briggs 6.5, always has been, always will be. We will just have to say we agree to disagree. :usflag:

Envy Lawn Service
03-17-2007, 03:11 AM
Envy, in response to your argument:

How do you explain the manufacturers recommending sae30 for higher temp applications?

If you will reference post #7 of this thread you will see a perfect OEM example.

Make note of the chart in that picture.

Notice how 10w30 and 10w40 is recommended anywhere SAE30 is the on the hot end of the temp scale... and well below where SAE30 is recommended also. Really, it is only OK to even run SAE30 in warm weather if you are going to run it at all.

Kawasaki actually recommends SAE40 for extreme hot temps as you can see on the same chart.... which also proves the arguement that 15w40 is OK for use as well. And believe me, I've been through that arguement as well....

Envy Lawn Service
03-17-2007, 03:25 AM
Data sheet's I don't have but I have torn down plenty of A/C engines that run commercially here in S.FLA using mulit-weight oil. I have seen what running the wrong oil does to a motor. You know what, use what ever oil makes you happy :) the most important thing is to follow your engine manufactures recommendations and service intervals. (they built it why would they know what oil to put in it:confused: )

I wasn't trying to make you mad or anything.

I was just trying to point out that this whole thing is an old way of thinking.

You'll also have to admit that most oil related failures are from oil starvation.
Low oil, no oil, inclines, or failed oil delivery items.

So what I'm saying is that it's an old way of thinking that needed to be flushed out. Most of us on here who are anal about maintenance and keep a daily check on our oil levels... and for us, SAE 30 is not most economical road to the longest engine life.

Envy Lawn Service
03-17-2007, 03:30 AM
Things have advanced in PCMO and in automotive engines. But a Briggs 6.5 is a Briggs 6.5, always has been, always will be. We will just have to say we agree to disagree. :usflag:

Yeah, but when I started, that 6.5 hp OHV Briggs would have been a 3 hp flathead.

But we can agree to disagree... LOL... :usflag:

DJL50
03-18-2007, 12:47 AM
Data sheet's I don't have but I have torn down plenty of A/C engines that run commercially here in S.FLA using mulit-weight oil. I have seen what running the wrong oil does to a motor. You know what, use what ever oil makes you happy :) the most important thing is to follow your engine manufactures recommendations and service intervals. (they built it why would they know what oil to put in it:confused: )

I'm with you. Kawasaki says use SAE 30 so that is what I use. If they said to use pancake syrup than I would use that. No need to get all worked up about it. It's only a lawn mower not a NASA space craft.