I think I found the truck...

[Bob_McNaughton]

Tell me what you guys think... Now, if I can get the bosses approval (wife), i'll go ahead and get it, and be another step closer to starting my LCO next year.

2001 Dodge 2500 (3/4 ton) Quad Cab - Heavy Duty. Sport package, Convience Package, Travel Package, Tow Package and Heavy Duty Package. Loaded, the only option it is missing is heated mirrors and power seats (big deal). Engine is the 5.9 Liter 350HP 360CU Inch V8, fuel tank is the 34gallon one. Rims are the premiums, not the standards.

It has the HD battery, Alternator, Springs, Tranny and Engine coolers. In addition to the sport package, trip computer, infinity performace sound system w/cd and all the trimmings. Also, got em to throw in a bed liner that it didnt come with (another $250.00).

Stickered at $34,000.00 in the window.

Price I negotiated with the dealer after 4 days of non-stop haggling and bargining on my lunch breaks: $28,333.00

After applying current $2000 truck rebate: $26,333.00

Minus the addition $175.00 I negotiated even farter at the last minute. Hehe: $26,158.00

Total price not including down payment: 26,158.00 (stickered at 34k).

What you guys think? Good deal? Seriously, I haven't found a truck with all that I want on it like this one. It was special ordered as a upscale toy for a engineering plant, and they cancelled the order. Thats why its got all the features and bells, sport pack, etc, yet has the added Heavy Duty everything on it.

Its a lotta truck, more than up to the task of anything I put infront of it (thx heavy duty, tow pack, etc).

Good deal?

[Keith]

Sounds good :) They don't have one with the V10 do they?

[lawnboy82]

sounds like a real nice truck, price i wouldnt know anything about. only one question, is it 4x4? even if you dont plow now, you may plow later, or you may have to do some work offroad. always helps for the extra wheels to spin.

[Bob_McNaughton]

Yes, its 4x4. No V10s of Diesels available, plus, the diesels are another 5k more in price. Ugh. I gotta stop somewhere.

I drove this baby twice over the last two days and fell in love.

MAN... I LOVE the feel of the 3/4 tons over the 1/2 tons!!! Feels STRONG and solid, and like a tank. The 1/2's feel too much like cheap cars..

Anyone else notice the super cool feel of a 3/4 ton? Just feels a ton better, hard to explain.

[geogunn]

bob--I say go for it...since you will be buying the gas.

if you want it, that is all the more reason to buy it!

but you don't need it to start a LCO next year. if you think that is the reason to buy it, then next year I hope you are as happy then with your purchase.

seriously, I think those trucks look awsome! they are huge and intimidating! if you want it...just buy it. forget the LCO justification.

personally, I'd squeeze the dealer a little harder. they will call you back!

let us know what you do.

GEO

[Bob_McNaughton]

I squeezed em so hard, the sales manager said I took home his ballz in my pocket.

I didn't believe his invoice price was like 29000.00, so he pulled it out and showed it to me(it was). Then, when I explained to him my dad used to own a Ford dealership, and that invoice pricing is misleading, since there is a built-in profit on the invoice (sticker price aside). Once I explained that, he dropped another $667.00 off invoice (probably close to his profit protection on the invoice). Thats where he got the 28333.00 price. From that price, you subtract $2000 for the current factory rebate to come up with the 26333.00 price.

Then, after messing with them for many days, and walking off the lot a few times saying "I might be back, but I have to go, i'm late for a meeting.", I decided to go for it. (you have to remember, im a marketing/business major, and currently a sales manager. Heh)

But before I did, I negotiated ANOTHER $175.00 off the price (what the hell, anything helps). And finally, before I agreed to place a deposit on it, I negotiated a free bedliner. ($250 value).

It's the last one left, before I left a deposit, another guy was about to make an offer on it. Being that it was the only HD with those options i've seen at 7 different dealerships, and that it was the last one, and all the negotiating I did, I felt I better finally agree to it.

After lookng on the internet at the used market for a truck with these exact features, I see 1999's selling for 25k, which is about the same i'm paying for this one. LOL

Squeeze those dealers hard, they are in the business to make money, just make sure they know upfront that you are not a customer that they can make money on. Thats the technique I use. Explain that you will help them move product, to make their numbers look good, but that they won't have any profit off you.

Hope that helps a bit.

[HOMER]

My 2000 Ram diesel is and has been a good truck. There is a huge difference between a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton truck. The 360 will suck some gas though so be prepared. I paid 31,000.00 for mine a year ago. If you could find a diesel then I would opt for that engine over the gas burner.

[lawnboy82]

yeah, there is something called PAC? or PACK? what that is, is when the dealer, not all dealers, but when a dealer sells a truck. they try to get you for however much over invoice, and then the manufacturer i dont know if they double it or what. but they get a kickback per unit from the guys who make the truck. so that is something to find out about. if your dealer has pack.

[Keith]

Holdback money typically equals about 3% of MSPR. If the vehicle is sold within a set period of time the dealer will get the holdback money. The longer the vehicle sits after that time, the less holdback he will get. So basically a dealer selling at invoice will make at leat $1000 (on a vehicle in the $34,000 range) There may also be dealer incentives much like the consumer rebate. For instance a Local Ford dealer had some trucks marked below invoice, turns out they have dealer cash incentives which allows them to do so.

Recently while looking at trucks i found out there was even an A/X/Z Plan rebate on Super Duties (incentive 9090). Not only would that put you below invoice, there would be a $1250 rebate above what a retail customer can get. Cool how that works. Alot of Ford fleet departments would rather sell at a Plan price anyway.

However, the deals on the Dodge trucks are great right now. An equal Ford would likely cost $1500-2000 more even aty X Plan.

[Keith]

BTW, if you are curious check out http://www.sunrisefordfleet.com/guides/02PG.htm for MSRP, Invoice and dealer cost. It may be slightly different in parts of the country, this is a dealer in Cali. But it will give you a good idea of what the dealer is paying for a vehicle.

[Bob_McNaughton]

Yes my dad mentioned holdback money, but I think he said it was in the 4-5% range and he called it something else. Apparently, the holdback money on this truck was in the $667.00 range (its been on the lot awhile), which they dropped off once I told them I knew about it. =p

My dad also pointed out to me awhile back that the dealer gets something called an "Allocated Credit", which amounts to a kickback on units sold from the manufacturer. Its not much he says, although he hasn't had his dealership for many many years, he estimated the Allocation Credit to be between 100-500$ per vehicle. Thats why I negotiated the extra $175.00 off, and the added bedliner, which amounted to another $375.00 out of the dealers pocket which ate into the poor guys Allocation.

I, nor my dad couldn't think of any other areas to squeeze money from on this. My dad looked at the figures, and thinks the dealer is just dropping the truck on me with a no profit/no loss margin. Which he says is about the best you can expect nowadays, since no dealership seems to take losses anymore.

26,158.00 + Tax from a sticker of 34,000.00 + Tax. Net savings of $7867.00 off sticker. Woot! This has to rank up there with one of my best stroke jobs to-date. (I LOVE screwing the man)

Incidentaly, another dealer I was working with had standard cab 2500's (non-heavy duty), and without all bells and whistles, but WITH plows for $28,000.00 and they wouldn't budge one bit for me.(salesman claimed the basic westerns on the trucks cost over 5k, lol OK..) - he mysteriously got a page and had to go when I told him im looking for a deal that will NOT make his dealership any money.

Do people actually walk onto a lot and pay sticker? Christ, I could never be a car salesman, the thought of stroking someone out of over $7600 in sucker money just wouldn't sit well with me. I couldn't sleep at night knowing what I did to people.

Lastly, another thing to consider is interest rates. Dealerships have been known to tack a percentage or two on your rates for a kickback from the finance company. This has to be watched for, and you need to let the dealer know upfront that you are wary of this, and want the best rate possible at the time. A mere 1% rate difference can equal as much as an additional $65.00 on your monthly payment!! Its huge.

If I can convince my wife to do this, the next step is to the turn in the credit app, and let the financial manager at the dealership know i've been checking on rates. I always ask to speak with the finance manager personally. This adds a bit of personalness to it, and a measure of intimidation. (in his mind), as he isn't buried deep in some office, finding ways to make the dealership more money.

Lastly, in the past, i've used this tactic as far as interest rates. I've said this to the finance manager. "I've checked around, and have seen rates as low as 3.9%. If I can't get a good rate here, I might have to seek outside financing or another dealership." Usually, after saying that, they come back with an acceptable interest rate, since they know right off the bat, your not going to be one they can screw over.

Buy smart, it pays.

[Keith]

Dude if you were to get a rate like 3.9% after all that....you are truly the man :D

[Bob_McNaughton]

Yea, that might be pushing it a bit. We will see on Monday if the wife gives me the thumbs up. (still working her over)

On a side note, I went to kbb.com, and did a search for the same truck, with the same equipment, but with 24000 miles, and 2 years old. The average street price came up $25,535.00.. $500 less than I am paying, but 2 years old, miles, and wear. Heavy Duty wasn't an option on this list to add to it either.

A pal told me to find the average retail of a 2 year old vehicle, and compare it to your new car price to get an idea how your getting ripped off, etc. the theory being, if you had to sell it in 2 years, how much of a loss would you take?

I just printed off a exact dealer price sheet (what the dealer pays for all options, etc), from KBB.COM, and will visit the dealer tomorrow to check off things on the sticker to ensure im stroking him enough. I don't mind if he makes a hundred or two, but not 2k off me. Forget it.

[HOMER]

Next time I go truck shoppin' I'm gonna buy you a round trip ticket! I think I'd still save money!

[John DiMartino]

Bob,iy sounds like your getting the best deal possible without them actually giving you the truck.If your plowing and towing,I hope you have the4.10 gears,the 3.55's arent good in the 2500 with the 360,not enough power,they work well with the V10,and Cummins though.All Dodge Ram 2500's are HD's,they stopped making 2500LD's around 96.The only HD option you can get for the chassis is the camper pkg,which helps handle empty and loaded,and has overload springs,and a rear anti-sway bar.If your going to drive a lot,you will regret not buying the Cummins,for both power,and economy,but 5K buys a lot of gas.Good luck with the new ride.I just bought a used 2000 Dodge Ram 4x4,2500,quad/Cummins,it is a sweet truck,but youre only paying 4500 more for your new truck than I got mine for.

[Bob_McNaughton]

Yea, I was wrong on the springs and shocks and stuff. The Heavy Duty Group on the truck is a 136-amp Alternator, 750cca Battery, Auxilliary Trans Cooler, and Transfer Case Skid Plate. I'm not complaining though, as those are all great things to have. =p

Homer,
I've actually went with many people to close deals on things before. My relatives love to take me on new car purchases. I get a kick out of it for some reason. BTW, for additional reading, I recommend "How to negotiate anything." By Cohen. He extensively goes into how to shaft car dealerships. =p

As for the gear ratio, i'm not sure which one it has on it, i'm going to check the sticker today. But I have found there is NO WAY to find a truck with every possible, tiny little option you need on it, and have the same engine, drivetrain etc, right off the lot. The only way really is to special order it. But then, if I did that, I wouldn't be gettign this good of a deal.

I gotta compromise somewhere.

[KirbysLawn]

Bob, I think I have posted twice now about getting a diesel and I have not heard you really comment on it. I will state it once more, the diesel will cost you more, sure, but whatever you will be paying each month for the diesel engine will not be much different than what you will be paying in gas for that truck.

I owned a Dodge Ram with the 5.9 and filled up every 3 days, pulling my trailer I got 7-8 MPG, IT SUCKED!!!! My diesel gets 13 MPG pulling the trailer with no problems.

Get a diesel if you plan on pulling a enclosed trailer or you will regret it. Get to know your local gas station owner, you will be seeing them often

[John DiMartino]

Ray,Im with you,on the diesel thing,I wont buy anything bigger than a 1/2 ton without it.In the long run,for puling the diesel will pay for itself,and then some.

[Bob_McNaughton]

I couldn't find a diesel with what I needed on it after searching 8 different Dodge dealers. :mad:

I've heard pros and cons about diesels, a few people on this board have emailed me, saying they didn't like their diesels. Etc. But overall, a diesel WOULD be better for me, just not available.

Remember, a diesel is 5-6k more, and very hard to find in the proper equipment. I found a diesel today, the truck was a non-quad cab, non-2500, 2x2 and with a stick and was 34k!!! What a rip off.

So for the diesels..

1) There are not any around, at 8+ dealers with the gear I need on em (4x4, 2500, HD pack, Tow Pack, etc)

2) Any that I have found, are 5-6k more than gas engines.

So like I said earlier, I have to compromise somewhere. I have to draw the line, and go with something, or my search will NEVER end. Plus, the deal I negotiated is pretty sweet I think.

Also, the 5-6k increase in diesel price will buy approximately 4,800 gallons of gas at $1.25 a gallon(going price here). Thats ALOT of gas. Do the math.

34 Gallon tank, 24-30 weeks a year of trailer towing, the extra 5-6k I would spend on a diesel will buy me an additional tank of gas every week I am towing for the next 5-6 years! So realisticly, its a dead-even, break-even venture.

(816 gallons a season x 1.25 per gallon = $1020.00 per year in additional gas expenses. 6,000$ for diesel = 6 years of an additional 1 tank a week per season for the gas truck.) Not to mention the 5-6k is financed at around 6-8% additional over the finance term, which could bring another 5-6k to reach 8-9k. We won't even go there though, as it would begin to make the diesel look so much worse)

I try to look at everything from multiple angles where possible. I went with the 6 year figure because I don't forsee me having this truck past the 6 year mark.

[Bob_McNaughton]

On a side note, today I went and copied the sticker, and noticed this baby has the HD Transfer Case and HD tranny. NOT an option on anything less than the 8.0L or a Diesel.

However the vehicle was a special order fleet, for a company that makes the transfer case - so Dodge made the exception and slapped the HD transfer case onto the 5.9L for them.

I think i'm getting a one of a kind truck because of this. I think later down the road my resale might be stronger, especially when I say "HD everything, including tran. which no other truck like this has.".

My dad says with a Dodge, I am damn well lucky to have the HD tranny and transfer case + aux. tranny cooling that just isn't an option on the standard 5.9L. LMAO (my dad likes dodge, but says they still need to improve their trannys.)

What you guys think??

Shrug

[racerdave]

Bob, Have you thot about ordering a truck? I find The prices are better when I order.
I just bought 2500 Diesel 2wd quad for <28,000
this is an SLT with all the trimmings in Feb.
I was going to order one and I negotiated this price.
Turned out they had another one on the lot. But it was the wrong color. I finally caved and bought it fo 27,200 :D


David

[Bob_McNaughton]

Originally posted by racerdave
Bob, Have you thot about ordering a truck? I find The prices are better when I order.
I just bought 2500 Diesel 2wd quad for <28,000
this is an SLT with all the trimmings in Feb.
I was going to order one and I negotiated this price.
Turned out they had another one on the lot. But it was the wrong color. I finally caved and bought it fo 27,200 :D


David

If I order one, its gonna have to be the 2002 model. 2001 production is over, and they want to move em out. Plus, after asking around, I discovered the new 2002 model year is going to be close to 2k more in price (guess to pay for the new toolup for the new look). I also need the HD package. It helps.

I gotta go 4x4 tho, I know 4x2's are cheap, but i'd never consider buying a 2wd truck. (no offense to those that buy 2wd's). I just don't like 2wd trucks, kinda like I don't like Muscle Cars with stripped down 6cyl versions for highschool kids.

[John DiMartino]

Bob the 241HD transfer case isnt something you'll need anyway with a V8,the only reason it has it in your case is for the PTO provision,it was probably a requirement of the fleet customer,so if your not putting a PTO on it,its a waste of money.The HD tranny-Id like to see the option # on that one if you can-let me know if its a 47RE,or smaller,the 47RE is the one used in V10/Cummins applications.The tag should be in the glove box,it wil have the tranny # on that tag.As for the diesel/gas debate,I just bought my 2000 for 22K,it has 50k on it,and is about 18 months old,it is a fully loaded SLT,with all options,quad cab ,short box,plow prep,traliler tow.LSD differential.,camper pkg,,just to name a few.Although the break even point for you may be 5-6 years,dont ever confuse the 5.9V8,s power with the Cummins 5.9.You will be wide open,the Cummins wont even beak a sweat with twice the load.The resale will be much better on the diesel-as your finding out now, the gas dodge's are a dime a dozen,and cheap around here,while a clean 4x4 with a Cummins is sold immediately at high book value.I had to go to NJ,over 100 miles to get mine,but its well worth it.I do feel your getting a good deal,Im just partial to the Cummins engine,since its so strong and dependable.

[Bob_McNaughton]

I'll check the glove box on Monday and let you know. Won't a 241HD Transfer case help in reliabity and durability for me?

Diesels have a better resale, thats for sure, but in 6 years it won't matter a huge difference for me anyway as anything I have in the truck will be pure equity. As for power, i'm not pulling 8k in stuff, maybe 3-4k or so I think. I've pulled 3k with a 4cyl ranger just fine, so I can't imagine the power of pulling it with a 360CUI.

Don't get me wrong, I know diesels are great, but the pricepoint is too high, and they are just horid to find in good quality used, and impossible to find new!

I'm going to run back over to the dealer right now, and check the sticker to see if there is more info on this oddball HD trans on it.

[KirbysLawn]

Bob I agree, $6000 is too much for the extra diesel, I would shop around. You already stated you don't need it till next year. I have done the numbers, I owned what you are looking to buy. I spent $260-$270 a month in gas, I now spend $160-$170 a month for diesel. My payments for my PSD are $110.00 a month more than the Dodge and as you can see I am breaking even with a MUCH better truck with a much better resale.

I bought my F250, crew cab, diesel, long bed, LOADED for $28,000 still under warranty in 99, shopped for about 3 months. It your call, I have had this discussion with members here and a friend who insisted the gas was better, they now have stated they wish they would have bought the diesel.


Just as I have told others, you've been warned...

[Randy Scott]

I don't know about the Cummins, but the Ford Powerstroke is only a $4600 option. A little less than the Cummins apparently.

[John DiMartino]

The Cummins is a 4600 option too,but the real world difference in the price is like 6000.Cummins trucks are much harder to find,especially at a reduced price,than gas powered trucks,so the gas trucks can be had for a bigger discount than the Cummins in the same truck.

[carl28]

STILLL CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR BUYIN A DODGE GOOD LUCK WITH THE TRANSMISSIONS AND THE FRONT BRAKES OTHER THAN THAT WHEN THIER RUNNING THIER GREAT TRUCKS IF YOU CAN GET THEM SERVICED AND THE PARTS ARE AVAILABLE.

[carl28]

Anyone tried to buy an extended warranty on a plow truck latley and can you put a plow on an extended cab ford f-250?????

[Bob_McNaughton]

90% of the plow trucks I see in my area are F250's hehe. So I guess the answer is yes.

BTW, Dodge trucks look like 20x better than fords and gms in my opinion. Reliability wise, they are all rated almost exactly the same, i've checked every truck rating site I can find.

I go for looks and style in ADDITION to functionality and reliability. Gotta have both. =p

[thelawnguy]

Dodge calls all their trannys (auto) HD. The 241HD transfer case is a $100 stand-alone option, included with the plow package. With a 5.9 gas whether its a 1500, 2500 or 3500 you get the same 46RE auto trans, with plow package you also get an overheat warning light on the dash for the transmission.

If you plan to plow at all dont do like I did and think that heated mirrors are a luxury. They are a necessity.

I have had a 7/75 extended Chrysler warranty on my plow truck since Sept 94 and nobody has ever given me a hassle on honoring it. In fact the dealer is more than eager to perform work under warranty-especially jobs that pay well lol

[Bob_McNaughton]

Aye, and I was pleased to find out today after looking it over that it does have heated mirrors and power seats. =p

The tranny is the 241HD as I thought it was, and I am glad.

[AndrewLawn]

bob,why don't you buy it,and put it on ebay and try for a profit.I mean,if trucks 2 years older than it and with 24,000 more miles on it are 500 less.....I'd figure you could actually profit from buying this truck!right?besides,you'd still probably be costing whoevers buying this less than if they went to a dealer,so you can still sleep at night!Also,why are you saying one thing,then later saying "oh oh,wait it does have this but doesnt have that".....i mean,how come you specifically stated it didn't have power seats and heated mirrors,now all of a sudden it does?To me this doesn't make much sense.I'm not calling you a liar,i 100% beleive you,I'm just curious more than doubtful.Thanks:)

[Bob_McNaughton]

Because I didn't see heated mirrors and power seats listed on the sticker when I wrote everything down and didn't remember noticing it on the test drive.

But when I looked up the same model on the web, I noticed the SLT-Plus package comes with heated mirrors and power seats, so I was like "WTF".

So I drove up to the dealership(after hours), and saw the little heat icon on the mirrors, and peering down the driverside door, I could see the knobs for the power seats.

After driving a dozen trucks at many different dealerships, I am pretty mixed up. Thats why i've been up to see this one like 3 times today alone. lol

No profit from ebay, since taxes would suck up a good chunk of the margins ($1590.00 in sales tax) when I buy it. :eek:

(if you notice the timeline of my posts, I said I was going to run back up to dealership and check the sticker and stuff again, then a few hours later, I posted that it DOES have heated mirrors and power seat.)

No reason to lie at all, confusion yes, lack of sleep, definately, dazzed from looking at dozens of trucks, definately... But lie? For what purpose to serve what end? After 34 years of existance, i've learned only truth is the path of the righteous.

Hope that clears it up for you. =p

[David Haggerty]

I've heard it said that "If you need a truck, you need a diesel."

Is your truck matched to your (anticipated) load?

My 1989 Dodge Cummins/automatic has pulled 10k lb. trailers for 125k miles, and never had a wrench on it, except for a valve adjustment. It's making me money.

Dave

[plow kid]

just buy the damn thing if you like it