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View Full Version : Is there an advantage with the John Deere one unit hydro pump?


johnwon
03-17-2007, 04:40 PM
I've been wondering what is the advantage in the single or unitized hydro pump JD uses on their ZTR. I'm not sure if all of the JD ZTR are built this way but I do know the 737 & 757 are like that. I was told by a JD salesman that it provided a more even tracking over the two pump system...?? Just wondering what any of you may know about their reason for this. A freind of mine has a very old Great Dane 61" 25HP ZTR that has one pump...could this be the same thing JD is doing now? Thanks for any responce on this subject.

lawnspecialties
03-17-2007, 05:40 PM
Saves them money in the manufacturing process?:confused:

Roger
03-17-2007, 05:51 PM
I have a 717A with a single unit. I have only used it about 250 hours, so it has not seen much use. However, I do not every recall reading a thread about a failure on these units. Actually, the number of times I have read threads about ANY hydro pump or motor failure is very, very small.

Somebody posted a thread a couple of days ago with news that another manufacturer (Exmark, Toro?) will have a single hydro unit by 2009. I think I have the date right.

Of all the equipment troubles discussed on LS, hydro pump/wheel motor problems for w/b and ZTRs seem to be very small.

ed2hess
03-17-2007, 09:44 PM
What I wonder is.....what happens when you have a failure? If those units are not repairable they probably cost a fortune!

DLCS
03-17-2007, 10:39 PM
Saves them money in the manufacturing process?:confused:


How?


They are actually two pumps but they are just enclosed in one housing. I own 3 757s with the the two separate pump setups and never had a bit of trouble with them. My stander uses the dual pump system and it has 300 hrs on it with no troubles to date with the pump. I was told that they dual Kanzaki pump is totally rebuildable. I've used but kinds of pumps in the JD stander and the duall seemed to have quicker response.

Envy Lawn Service
03-17-2007, 11:07 PM
What I wonder is.....what happens when you have a failure? If those units are not repairable they probably cost a fortune!

Ding Ding Ding.... we have a winner.

It's a unitized 2 pump system in one housing.
I'm sure it is repairable... but it's going to need to go to Deere and it's going to COST!

This is just the way with Deere.
They want to be as proprietary as possible with the componets on their equipment.
This keeps you coming back to them for parts and service.

deereman
03-17-2007, 11:46 PM
Deere's hydro pumps are no different than anybody elses. And yes you can rebuild them, and NO you dont have to take it back to Deere to do so! And thats if you do encounter any trouble. Ask around if any bodys haveing trouble with there hydro systems. We run ours hard day in and day out , hard in the way of exteme steep hill's that are VERY long and very wide. The hydro system stays nice and COOL all day long.

deereman
03-17-2007, 11:49 PM
I forgot to also mention that ANY hydro system if repaired, will be costly. Thats the nature of hydro's no matter what kind or brand. A hydro system is what runs up the prices on all these commercial mowers that everbody is running.

DLCS
03-18-2007, 12:15 AM
Ding Ding Ding.... we have a winner.

It's a unitized 2 pump system in one housing.
I'm sure it is repairable... but it's going to need to go to Deere and it's going to COST!

This is just the way with Deere.
They want to be as proprietary as possible with the componets on their equipment.
This keeps you coming back to them for parts and service.


The Kanzaki pumps are not Deere proprietary, e-mail them and they can tell you who will sell you the same pump and parts that Deere uses on their ztrs. But why would you, its much easier to go to your Deere dealer. Tuff Torq makes the Kanzaki dual unitized pump and its used in more applications than Deere ztrs. This website shows the pump that Deere uses. http://www.tufftorq.com/prods2.asp?PID=22 Eventually most ztrs will use these style of pumps.

J Thmas will sell you pumps for the JD ztrs that have the single pumps and they may even have the untized pumps by now.

http://www.kanzaki-kokyukoki.jp/about_us/04e.html

Envy Lawn Service
03-18-2007, 01:08 AM
The Kanzaki pumps are not Deere proprietary, e-mail them and they can tell you who will sell you the same pump and parts that Deere uses on their ztrs. But why would you, its much easier to go to your Deere dealer. Tuff Torq makes the Kanzaki dual unitized pump and its used in more applications than Deere ztrs. This website shows the pump that Deere uses. http://www.tufftorq.com/prods2.asp?PID=22 Eventually most ztrs will use these style of pumps.

J Thmas will sell you pumps for the JD ztrs that have the single pumps and they may even have the untized pumps by now.

http://www.kanzaki-kokyukoki.jp/about_us/04e.html

You can be ticked off if you want to be... Doesn't really matter to me.

The point I'm getting at... and the one you seem to refuse existance of it this...

Call it what you want, but Deere works off proprietary schemes with components.

No, they may not be flat out proprietary parts... but they may as well be. The reason is that Deere is notorious for being special, different, and non-standard.

I think they are freakin brilliant for that... brilliant.

Since they don't used industry standard items, the knock-off shops can't effectively set up and build knock-off parts for their equippment... and since such parts are non-standard, it keeps parts warehouses out of the game too because they are too low volume and too many versions to keep up with.

You are not likely to click a link here at lawnsite and go buy a kanzaki pump at a price comparable to industry standard Hydro Gear pumps.

This is good for Deere, because like you said... "why would you?"....
And that is the whole point.

It's much easier to tuck your tail between your legs and trot on over to the Deere dealer.
This way you don't have to hunt the part or worry about rather or not it's the right version.

Brilliance for Deere... bad for your wallet.

And I'm not sure I have an opinion that leads me in either direction at this point.
Meaning I'm not really sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing in the end.

All I'm saying is it limits your outlets/resources for parts and service... and costs you more money.

superclyde007
03-18-2007, 01:22 AM
I have owned John Deere products in the past.
The last unit I had was a 54" walk behind. It had a Kawasaki engine that ultimately had the crankshaft break. The crankshaft was only used in Deere units so the crank had to come from Deere at an astronomical price. Ditto on the PTO clutch. I replaced the engine with a Kohler and the clutch from a Scag for about 1/2 of the price. The idler pulleys (plastic) cost me $50 each and at the time had to come from Deere. The deck belt, if I recall, was an oddball length and somthing like 9/16" wide so it was a Deere only item and very expensive. Regardless of whether or not it is better or not the general public's opinion will be "It must be good, it's a Deere."
Deere has sold alot of product simply because it was Green and Yellow, regardless of the merits of the machine. They are masters at marketing and brand awareness.

Envy Lawn Service
03-18-2007, 01:50 AM
I have owned John Deere products in the past.
The last unit I had was a 54" walk behind. It had a Kawasaki engine that ultimately had the crankshaft break. The crankshaft was only used in Deere units so the crank had to come from Deere at an astronomical price. Ditto on the PTO clutch. I replaced the engine with a Kohler and the clutch from a Scag for about 1/2 of the price. The idler pulleys (plastic) cost me $50 each and at the time had to come from Deere. The deck belt, if I recall, was an oddball length and somthing like 9/16" wide so it was a Deere only item and very expensive. Regardless of whether or not it is better or not the general public's opinion will be "It must be good, it's a Deere."
Deere has sold alot of product simply because it was Green and Yellow, regardless of the merits of the machine. They are masters at marketing and brand awareness.

See there... now that in a nutshell is all I am saying.

That's great for Deere and great for their dealers.
Brilliant strategy.... not knocking them for it.

But for some end users, this can be a big handicap and I think it deserves pointing out.

What if the intended buyer/end user here was considering traveling a long distance to buy a Deere? This kind of thing would be a major issue possibly if that person keeps the equipment any length of time.

When it comes to the pump systems... just google it...

Type "Kanzaki Pumps" and push enter.
But you might want to take the quotes off so you get more than 6 hits.

Then type "Hydro-Gear Pumps" or Hydrogear Pumps or Hydro Gear Pumps.

The point is rather apparent.
You'll see resources for parts on the first page for Hydro Gear.

Hydro Gear... located in the USA... used on almost all commercial pump/wheel motor setups.

Kanzaki... located in Japan... used on Deere units.

DLCS
03-18-2007, 02:20 AM
Kanzaki... located in Japan... used on Deere units.


The parent company is located in Japan. They do have plants located in the USA.

johnwon
03-18-2007, 05:51 AM
Thanks for the responce on this subject.....the unitized pump looks like a good idea for the most part. The old Great Dane ZTR my friend still has with one pump must have a completely different system. I wonder if anyone who has run the JD and other brands of ZTR can feel a difference in the tracking?

Roger
03-18-2007, 06:22 AM
My question still remains, has anybody had a problem with the unitized unit? To date, I have not read any accounts of failures.

deereman
03-18-2007, 11:50 AM
Roger .............I think that you just answered your own question!

ed2hess
03-18-2007, 01:54 PM
Roger .............I think that you just answered your own question!

I learned my first lesson on Walker....ran it until it failed then essentially had to throw away the hydro and buy a new one. Now Walker has gone a step further and put both sides into one intergrated package. So when the new one fails guess it will cost me twice as much..$1000? I am guess the JD new integrated is much the same as the one used by Scag, Ferris, Walker, etc etc.?

Envy Lawn Service
03-18-2007, 04:06 PM
My question still remains, has anybody had a problem with the unitized unit? To date, I have not read any accounts of failures.

Well to me, the overall unit looks good...
I'm speaking of the ones I've seen with the big fan on them.
And they look even better on the smaller ones (717 & 727) due to placement.

Plus there have been few documented complaints.
But there have been some... enough to make lawnsite... I remember reading it.
That's surprising with such low volume.

But all in all, in the end, I don't think I'd be too worried about reliability.
I'm sure they are an acceptable pump.

They all have their problems and they all eventually break.
When that time comes is when I'd be concerned about the repair bill.

sicnj
03-18-2007, 04:23 PM
i think they went with one pump bc A.there is less moving parts and B.the oil stays cooler.

Roger
03-18-2007, 06:28 PM
They all have their problems and they all eventually break.


Say what? "All" is inclusive language meaning every last one of them. Is this really true?

ed2hess
03-18-2007, 06:44 PM
Say what? "All" is inclusive language meaning every last one of them. Is this really true?

In my other world I did failure projections for mechanical mechanism and yep there is a failure rate for everything. And in early production like these are they is another adder for manufacturing defects that is generally very high. For the statistical poor sap that does have a failure he will pay big time and the other 90% will be very happy and claim how reliable the units perform. I am guessing that due to cost all units will go to the integrated system in the very near future.....and they do cost less.

DLCS
03-18-2007, 07:37 PM
In my other world I did failure projections for mechanical mechanism and yep there is a failure rate for everything. And in early production like these are they is another adder for manufacturing defects that is generally very high. For the statistical poor sap that does have a failure he will pay big time and the other 90% will be very happy and claim how reliable the units perform. I am guessing that due to cost all units will go to the integrated system in the very near future.....and they do cost less.


If its man made it will break at some point. These unitized pumps aren't new themselves but somewhat new to the ztr market. I believe i read somewhere that the dup pumps are used on some excavation equipment and industrial machinery.

Pumper
03-21-2007, 03:51 AM
Kanzaki developed the dual pump for John Deere. They offered them a 3 year exclusive arrangement. That was up in November 2005. They can now offer this pump to anyone they chose. The pumps are built in Osaka Japan. They are sold in the US under the Tuff Torq brand but Kanzaki's US sales division in Tennessee. Kanzaki also has arrangements with other companies to sell their product.

The main advantage to the lawn mower manufacturer is reduced assembly time and reduced space (the dual pump is very compact). You also have 1 input port and 1 case drain which reduces the number of hoses.

The pumps are totally independent but there is still a chance for cross contamination.

The main advantage the Kanzaki pump has over Hydro Gear is the internal components. The Kanzaki has a different bearing setup and wear plate material that allows for much higher pressures (1400 PSI versus 1000 PSI). The drawback is Kanzaki hasn't created a shock valve for the dual pump yet. Hydro Gear went to the shock valve to protect their pump because of the pressure spikes in the hydraulic system that are generated when the machine is spun around. This is when Hydro Gear was smearing so many pumps.

I see advantages to both the single and the dual pump. I have my preference but I don't think I would let it influence which mower I bought.

johnwon
03-21-2007, 05:57 AM
Thanks Pumper for sharing some of your knowledge about this subject.

MarcSmith
03-21-2007, 07:30 AM
1000's of hours on dual pump machines, with no problems or even leacks for that matter. Several exmarks running out to the 3000 hour mark and one walker wich had two engines replaced. no hydro pump problems. ever...

Its propably the one thing on the mower that you don't really have to worry about...

Envy Lawn Service
03-21-2007, 07:40 AM
Thanks Pumper for sharing some of your knowledge about this subject.

Yeah... it's appreciated.

In there defense, about the cross contamination....
Most companies that use the dual separate pumps and wheel motors don't take advantage of it and isolate the sides. So they will cross contaminate too... just in a different manner.

Pumper
03-21-2007, 11:27 PM
True about the cross contamination on other systems. However, it is much easier on the dual pump. With the independent pumps, the contamination must travel from the pump to the tank, from the tank through a suction screen to a filter, then to the other pump. With the dual pump, it just travels over a partial divider between the two sections.

The biggest drawback to the dual pump that I see to the manufacturer is the layout of the control arms. The biggest drawback to the user is the fact that there are no shock valves. If Kanzaki would come out with a decent shock valve in the dual pump, it would be hands down a better pump.

All that being said, you guys are right. The hydraulics on the mower have very little problems. As with anything, you will find the occasional lemon, but overall if the manufacturer designs their system right, you will see a long life. Most of the components are designed to last 2000+ hours.

Envy Lawn Service
03-22-2007, 12:02 AM
True about the cross contamination on other systems. However, it is much easier on the dual pump. With the independent pumps, the contamination must travel from the pump to the tank, from the tank through a suction screen to a filter, then to the other pump. With the dual pump, it just travels over a partial divider between the two sections.

The biggest drawback to the dual pump that I see to the manufacturer is the layout of the control arms. The biggest drawback to the user is the fact that there are no shock valves. If Kanzaki would come out with a decent shock valve in the dual pump, it would be hands down a better pump.

All that being said, you guys are right. The hydraulics on the mower have very little problems. As with anything, you will find the occasional lemon, but overall if the manufacturer designs their system right, you will see a long life. Most of the components are designed to last 2000+ hours.

Wow... very well said there.

This also reverts back to what I was saying too. If something goes wrong, you are not replacing or rebuilding just one pump or one side with the Kanzaki. Not likely anyways. You'll be replacing the whole assembly... and if some metal shavings are involved you may need one or two new wheel motors as well.

I like the compact design and the big fan on the kanzaki... but not much else.

As far as the hydralics are concerned in a nutshell, most of the components are indeed designed for 2,000 or more hours. How long they live depends on the shock valves, the user, the application, the maintenance, and more than anything... how the individual mower MFG designs the total system.

I know of some mower brands out there that use the industry standard pumps and wheel motors... but their drive systems are still total CRAP. And that's not the pump or wheel motor's fault... it's because of the rest of the design by the mower MFG.... plumbing, cooling, pump drive speed, filtration, etc...

fertguy31
07-19-2007, 08:39 AM
The new mowers coming off the line do not have the fan anymore. We have had multiple failures and overheating.