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View Full Version : Pump Start..how would you do it?


SprinklerGuy
03-19-2007, 08:44 AM
Ok..my first pump system....

They have a well....that is dedicated to irrigation only.

It is on a switch....the pump that is. They have a pressure tank, but a small one...less than 20 gallons. I don't want the pump cycling on and off.....

How and where do I wire the pump start...I have NEVER used that feature of a timer before...excuse my ignorance, but I'm from the big City where they have muni water... ;)

thanks


PS
If you start ripping me...I will delete this thread ;)

DanaMac
03-19-2007, 09:04 AM
What a moron!!:laugh: :laugh:

DanaMac
03-19-2007, 09:06 AM
I only have a handful of well systems and am not your best source of info for that. But when do you want help pulling the pipe for that install? Or are you trenching instead?

PurpHaze
03-19-2007, 09:23 AM
Sorry Tony... can't be of any help here either. Although half our sites are on pumps they're the large commercial type with very large pressure tanks. They don't start via a relay rather pressure/water differential. And since electricians and plumbers are the ones that service/repair our pumps I have little practical experience in that area.

Ground Master
03-19-2007, 10:10 AM
The pump start relay can be wired to the master valve if there is no pump start on the controller.

BSME
03-19-2007, 10:10 AM
what timer are you using? the only setup i've used is the hunter relay and pro-c

Wet_Boots
03-19-2007, 10:14 AM
Your solution is simple. Pretend you are still on city water. The only difference is that you should probably install a strainer in the sprinkler supply line. What matters most is that you match system flow to well flow. PGPs work best for this.

SprinklerGuy
03-19-2007, 10:48 AM
So the switch for the pump will stay in the ON position

Check valve necessary?

I don't really want that well pump kicking on all the time.....if the pressure tank has a leak or the well head leaks or anything like that...I don't want that constant bombardment from the well pump.

Dana...shooting for Tuesday..depending on today.....have some truck repair to do :(

Wet_Boots
03-19-2007, 11:07 AM
Is this not a pressurized set-up? I inferred the existence of a pressure switch here. A pressure switch is cheaper than a pump relay, if it comes down to your installing one or the other.

speedbump
03-19-2007, 11:45 AM
If you want to leave it on the pressure switch so people can hand water or wash the dog. You can install a Cycle Stop Valve. (http://www.pumpsandtanks.com/cycle_stop_valves.htm) This will prevent the pump from cycling with even the smallest zone. You can get them in preset pressures or adjustable. Or if you just want it on a Pump Start. Get rid of the pressure switch and tank. Install the Pump Start right where the pressure switch was if you like. Then run 24 volts from the timers motor terminal and a neutral to the Pump Start.

bob...

Dirty Water
03-19-2007, 01:40 PM
Find out the GPM the pump is capable of supplying without cycling.

Size your zones to match that exactly.

No cycling.

About 60% of the installs I've done are on wells, I can count on one hand the cycling troubles we've had.

londonrain
03-19-2007, 01:45 PM
If you go with the pressure switch route then also add a master valve, so if a zone gets hung open it will not run until the pump burns up or well goes dry...
I run my system off a pressure switch and have had no problems in over 12+ years...

Dirty Water
03-19-2007, 01:47 PM
If you go with the pressure switch route then also add a master valve, so if a zone gets hung open it will not run until the pump burns up or well goes dry...
I run my system off a pressure switch and have had no problems in over 12+ years...

Meh, just use good zone valves :)

Any pump worth its money will have a thermal shutoff in it anyways.

londonrain
03-19-2007, 01:53 PM
Meh, just use good zone valves :)

Any pump worth its money will have a thermal shutoff in it anyways.
OK I used 205's on my system and guess what one hung open...trust me a master valve is highly recommended and cheap....
When ever I do a system that is run off a pressure switch I use a master valve....

speedbump
03-19-2007, 01:56 PM
I'm not sure what a master valve does. But if a zone sticks open that won't hurt the pump. Running deadhead sure will though. It will nuke itself in less than an hour if no water is running and the pump doesn't shut off.

bob...

BSME
03-19-2007, 01:59 PM
speedbump...

what do you suggest for when you want to run a drip zone off a pump system as far as concerns about deadheading

londonrain
03-19-2007, 02:04 PM
I'm not sure what a master valve does. But if a zone sticks open that won't hurt the pump. Running deadhead sure will though. It will nuke itself in less than an hour if no water is running and the pump doesn't shut off.

bob...
Since the system works off a drop in pressure , if a zone hangs open it will continue to run until the valve is fixed or the pump is shut off. If the pump ran for hrs or days this could cause the well to go dry and burn up the pump. The master valve shuts off the system, so it would take 2 valves to fail for it to run when it is not needed . If worried about deadhead install a popoff valve or thermal stop which I do.

Dirty Water
03-19-2007, 02:11 PM
OK I used 205's on my system and guess what one hung open...trust me a master valve is highly recommended and cheap....
When ever I do a system that is run off a pressure switch I use a master valve....

THis is where I advocate RB DVF's. Unless your pumping some serious debris, you won't stick one.

They also handle sand very well, because of their screened solenoid.

For the record, even if you install a pump with a PSR you should also have a pressure switch on it as a high end shutoff just incase a valve fails to open. I've seen SCH80 PVC out of a pump completely melted from this happening, and that was before the pumps thermal breaker triggered.

Wet_Boots
03-19-2007, 02:12 PM
The quick answer for drip from a well is "don't" ~ Running drip from a well brings in filtering requirements that can create a high-maintainence system. Sort of a 'your mileage can vary' situation. Most deep wells I encounter that 'run dry' have yet to kill the pump. Whether a thermal cut-off was activated or not, I don't know.

A master valve doesn't hurt, but I'd first spend the money for flow-control valves, and throttle them down to the actual flow.

As for deadheading, this is where the pressure switch is desired over a pump relay.

Dirty Water
03-19-2007, 02:12 PM
speedbump...

what do you suggest for when you want to run a drip zone off a pump system as far as concerns about deadheading


Run the dripzone with a rotor zone, or use a cycle stop valve....Or use a really big drip zone, Or a really big pressure tank :)

Dirty Water
03-19-2007, 02:14 PM
The quick answer for drip from a well is "don't" ~ Running drip from a well brings in filtering requirements that can create a high-maintainence system. Sort of a 'your mileage can vary' situation. Most deep wells I encounter that 'run dry' have yet to kill the pump. Whether a thermal cut-off was activated or not, I don't know.

A master valve doesn't hurt, but I'd first spend the money for flow-control valves, and throttle them down to the actual flow.

As for deadheading, this is where the pressure switch is desired over a pump relay.

We have fairly clean wells where I was living, so a 150 Mesh inline filter on each drip zone was adequate, and only needed annual cleaning.

On the open water pumps we used (ditches, lakes etc), we also installed a rucso strainer.

speedbump
03-19-2007, 02:43 PM
If your drip zone runs enough water to keep the pump and motor cool, it's no problem. Depending on the size of the pump and motor.

As for Pressure Relief Valves, I wouldn't depend too much on them. Once they pop once, they tend to leak, then some guy comes along and puts a pipe plug in the opening. I've seen it done many times.

Pump starts can run the pump whether a valve opens or not. Like Wet_Boots said, the pressure switch will protect the pump in that situation.

When you have different zones using varied amounts of water, it's almost impossible to keep a pump running for all of them. That's where the CSV comes in very handy. It will keep the pump running with very little water usage.

bob...

Mike Leary
03-19-2007, 04:39 PM
If you can afford it, go with a "on demand" pump & module. It has a very
small pressure tank and can be user-set for and psi. Gets you away from
the dumb 40-60 switches, which are near-death for sprinkler folk.
Any good well person should know about these.
Mike

Dirty Water
03-19-2007, 04:46 PM
If you can afford it, go with a "on demand" pump & module. It has a very
small pressure tank and can be user-set for and psi. Gets you away from
the dumb 40-60 switches, which are near-death for sprinkler folk.
Any good well person should know about these.
Mike


Those are cool, but at around $700 last time I priced it for the control model, plus the expense of a variable speed pump, not really economical for your typical residential.

speedbump
03-19-2007, 05:26 PM
Trust me on this one, the variable speed units are not what they are cracked up to be. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but for $69.00 you can get the same if not better results with the CSV and lightning won't take it out.

bob...

Mike Leary
03-19-2007, 05:30 PM
They are way cool, come on sprinkler guys, upsell!
We have them in two of our residentials....you'll not regret.
Jon, Are you from Sequim?

londonrain
03-19-2007, 06:01 PM
THis is where I advocate RB DVF's. Unless your pumping some serious debris, you won't stick one.

They also handle sand very well, because of their screened solenoid.

For the record, even if you install a pump with a PSR you should also have a pressure switch on it as a high end shutoff just incase a valve fails to open. I've seen SCH80 PVC out of a pump completely melted from this happening, and that was before the pumps thermal breaker triggered.
I have rebuilt many dv100's because they have failed to close....
You should always use metal as inlet and outlet piping on a pump....

londonrain
03-19-2007, 06:37 PM
Another one I had hang open was when the controller was struck by lightening and one zone on the controller ended being hot. Master valve saved the day.....

SprinklerGuy
03-19-2007, 07:04 PM
Holy Moly!

The well has a small pressure tank and a pressure switch....and pumps like a mofo....

I will be sizing the zones based on the mofo.....

Can 'o worms courtesy of sprinklerguy


Thank you for all the opinions that have now rattled my brain, helped me realize I will stay away from these from now on....and basically made me hate myself for taking on this job ;)


All kidding aside....

I think I will be fine.....thanks for the ideas.

Wet_Boots
03-19-2007, 07:24 PM
That's what I thought you had. If you want to be precise, and only use the certain nozzle sizes, then you do a scaled-up version of the bucket test. When I laid out PGP systems, I might be using nozzles as large as #11, if the well performed more than average, based on horsepower.

For a first effort, you might want to see how long it takes to fill a 30 gallon garbage can from the well, and work your design from the gpm you get.

SprinklerGuy
03-19-2007, 07:38 PM
I am sorta getting the feeling that this is going to turn into a nightmare....or I am going to have to redesign and PUNT.

Just watching the water shoot out of the 1 inch poly as I flushed b4 the manifold......10 foot of stream as big around as the poly.....50lbs......

That is a sh*tload of water.....I may have to get rid of the rotors or run 12 per zone......I only have 24 foot wide areas.....I guess I could pipe w/ sprays..but I don't wanna.......

Sigh....I'm moving back to Arizona...oh wait, it's hot there.

Update tomorrow....

Wet_Boots
03-19-2007, 07:49 PM
What's the horsepower of the pump? From that, and the drawdown level of the well, you can get some sort of handle on performance of the well, just by reading pump curves.

bicmudpuppy
03-19-2007, 09:38 PM
If your outlet pipe is 1", I can see very few situations where you couldn't make this work Tony. How many rotor gpm did you design for? and how many spray gpm total did you design for? Absolute worst case scenario, do you have room for a larger pressure tank? 30gpm looks like a lot of water when you don't have it harnessed. 24' spacings? high volume sprays? Now your killing two birds at once. your not running extra heads, and your using lots of water.

DanaMac
03-19-2007, 10:58 PM
Just think Tony, now I only need to teach you how to pull 1 or 2 zones instead of 4-5!!! I'll call when I'm close to getting my first appt. done. Did you reserve a puller?

h20 guy
03-20-2007, 08:32 AM
Confused? You did not perform a flow test on the well system before designing the irrigation system? As speedbump says, use a CSV and it will work like a charm.

SprinklerGuy
03-20-2007, 09:03 AM
First of all...no I didn't perform a technical flow test.....I did however open the 1 inch ball valve on the outlet side....and watch it. As I am so accustomed to installing with a known water source (muni water)...I don't ever concern myself with the design aspect until they say "yes"...WELL (no pun intended!)..he said yes and now I'm designing....I have plenty of buffer and will make money either way.

The most important thing to me is to protect that pump....that being said I need to apologize to speedbump for not even reading his post. I just visited the site and looked at the CSVs.....very nice. I hope I can find one near me....that looks like just what I need.

Am I correct to assume that with the csv I can just design my system for 15gpm and the csv will protect the pump?

I used the calculator on the site..using 15gpm 50psi desired and 60psi top end....it came up with a couple of inlines csv......I hope I can find them at my distributor.

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 09:36 AM
Why do you assume you will be incapable of matching up well performance and sprinkler system? On a dedicated well, you can increase the pressure switch adjustment, and gain some latitude that way.

speedbump
03-20-2007, 09:48 AM
You can buy them from me, or your local distributors should have them. They have been around for quite a while now.

There has been a lot of discussion about the variable speed pumps v/s the CSV. In my opinion the CSV wins every time. I never understood the efficiency of putting a 1.5hp three phase motor under a 3/4hp pump and adding a very expensive lightning attracting controller to vary the speed of the already too big motor.

If you go with the CSV the plastic ones have next to no pressure drop or friction loss. With the brass valves there is a pressure drop to deal with but they are adjustable so you can dial in your own pressure. Then just set the pressure switch ten pounds above and below your set pressure and your good to go.

The CSV1 is a 1" valve and comes in 40, 50 anf 60 presets. It is good for 25 gpm. The CSV1-1/4 is an 1-1/4" valve good for 50 gpm and also comes in the preset pressures. Give one a try, I think you will like it. And it will keep the pump running with only 1 gallon of water being used.

bob...

SprinklerGuy
03-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Boots....I guess I just don't have a clue what I'm doing and looking for an easy way out.

I am pretty sure I can match the flow.....my real concern is that I really want those zones set up the way I want them set up...shade/sun/back/front etc...

With my size constraints....it might be a problem if the well is pumping 20gpm and my zones are only using 12gpm...know what I mean?

I don't really want the pump to cycle....and I"m not sure if it will or not because I am a newbie to this. I can see the value, however, in learning this stuff and becoming well versed in it so I can be the smart one...and not the dumba## newbie....

More?

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 10:25 AM
Use flow control zone valves, for one thing. That's a must. Be prepared to ratchet up the pressure switch adjustments. The pressure switch might still be at a 30-50 psi operating range. Make it 50-70, and the flow will be reduced. In fact, depending on the pressure tank, you can even go higher than that. It's not like there's household plumbing to take into consideration, and higher pressures are what a cycle stop valve would be giving you upstream anyway, so no pressure worries there. Let the valves' flow controls give you a pressure drop, should it be needed on a particular zone.

sprinklertech
03-20-2007, 01:22 PM
I agree with dirty water on using the drip tied in with a rotor zone. I use 40 psi drip valves for large beds and they blow the pressure relief valve, if you don't run it with a rotor zone. Are you asking how to wire to the clock? If so what type of clock are you using?

SprinklerGuy
03-20-2007, 06:57 PM
Nope...I'm all set.

Local pump guy set me up.....

Thanks for the dialogue. I'm sure I'll start it back up again if I have problems.

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 07:02 PM
I agree with dirty water on using the drip tied in with a rotor zone. I use 40 psi drip valves for large beds and they blow the pressure relief valve, if you don't run it with a rotor zone. Are you asking how to wire to the clock? If so what type of clock are you using?

Apparently your using a PSR if your blowing the relief valve with a drip zone. This is why I like the concept of having a pressure switch as your high point cutoff coupled with a PSR.

It would cycle the pump instead of opening the relief valve instead of popping and ruining the relief valve. Not a good thing, but better in my opinion.

Ground Master
03-20-2007, 07:08 PM
Tony- How did the local pump guy set it up?

SprinklerGuy
03-20-2007, 07:59 PM
Dennis at CPS told me I will be fine with the pressure switch that I have...and the pressure tank that I have.....

He didn't really set me up other than talk me off the ledge a little this morning.

He also mentioned that a CSV is sort of a glorified PRV....

He said if the pump is truly pumping 25 gpm...and I set all my zones as close to the same as I can and stay between 10-15 gpm...it should come on...and run until the valve shuts down.

He did mention that it isn't rocket science and if it does short cycle I can play with it to make it work...(PRV or CSV)

He also said to use flow controls.....and not to worry.

So, tomorrow when I fire it up, we'll see what happens and we can re-visit.

Thanks

speedbump
03-21-2007, 10:02 AM
Your pump guy doesn't know much about CSV's or PRV's if he made that statement. Flow restrictors cut everything to a given flow. The CSV adjusts to meet the pressure demand.

bob...